Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:49 AM - Re: Re: Audio system design (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 04:54 AM - Re: ov module (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: Audio system design (RGent1224@aol.com)
4. 08:12 AM - Voltmeter Needs Independent Power Supply (Dennis Johnson)
5. 08:49 AM - Fw: B&C dgm (bob noffs)
6. 02:03 PM - Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Valin & Allyson Thorn)
7. 03:13 PM - Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Bruce Gray)
8. 03:27 PM - Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Valin)
9. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Bruce Gray)
10. 04:18 PM - Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Valin)
11. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Richard E. Tasker)
12. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Bruce Gray)
13. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Valin & Allyson Thorn)
14. 08:09 PM - Re: Fw: B&C dgm (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 09:48 PM - Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 10:58 PM - Way Off Topic! Was: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
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Subject: | Re: Audio system design |
At 08:49 PM 6/25/2010, you wrote:
>Bob
>The link(below) won't work for me, neither does accessing your
>catalog at your AeroElectric web site
>Can you steer me in the right direction
>Thanks
>Dick
>
>In a message dated 6/25/2010 7:33:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700L.pdf
>
>
Try starting with the front page at http://aeroelectric.com
and navigate through the various index pages.
Bob . . .
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At 06:27 PM 6/25/2010, you wrote:
> hi bob,
> i mailed you a few days ago about how to label the warning light
> and 20amp breaker in my ov module.
> this is on a jab 3300. i am looking at b and c diagrahm and for
> some reason when i ordered the parts from them a 20 amp breaker was
> substituted for a 10 or 15 amp breaker and a 1 amp was substituted
> for the 2 amp. you had questioned what a 20 amp breaker was doing
> in there. my answer to that is i have no idea. will the system work
> with the 20 amp and the 1 amp?
> i have a toggle for ''master on ''but no separate switch for the
> alternator.
I'm not familiar with B&C's diagram for wiring a Jab.
Can you point me to a download link for it or send
me an electronic copy if it's already in .pdf?
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Audio system design |
Bob
Tried that last night and it didn't work but lo and behold today it works -
Just the wonders of this age of communication.
Thanks
Dick
In a message dated 6/26/2010 6:51:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
At 08:49 PM 6/25/2010, you wrote:
Bob
The link(below) won't work for me, neither does accessing your catalog at
your AeroElectric web site
Can you steer me in the right direction
Thanks
Dick
In a message dated 6/25/2010 7:33:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
_http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700L.pdf_
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700L.pdf)
Try starting with the front page at _http://aeroelectric.com
_ (http://aeroelectric.com/) and navigate through the various index pages.
Bob . . .
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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Subject: | Voltmeter Needs Independent Power Supply |
Greetings,
Thanks, guys, for the helpful answers to my problems with cheap digital
voltmeters that require a power supply independent of the electrical
system I want to measure. For my application, which isn't far from a
120 volt AC power outlet, I'll use a 120 VAC to 12 VDC transformer to
power the instruments. Of course, that would require an unusually long
extension cord if this were an airplane.
If other people are looking for cheap digital voltmeters, ammeters, etc.
you might want to first verify if they need an independent power supply
or not. Some of the ones I looked at do, and some don't, and it doesn't
seem to be a matter of price.
Thanks,
Dennis
Message 5
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bob, here is the schematic.
bob noffs
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Greg Jones <greg@bandc.biz>
Subject: B&C dgm
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/504-500_Rev_F.pdf
*Greg Jones***
* *
*Greg Jones***
*Sales/Customer Service*
* *
*B&C Specialty Products, Inc.*
*123 East 4th Street*
*POB B*
*Newton**, Kansas 67114 USA***
*Phone (316) 283-8000*
*Fax (316) 283-7400*
*Email greg@bandc.biz***
*Website www.bandc.biz*
* *
**
Message 6
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Subject: | Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? |
Hello,
I've searched the archives but can't find help on this. I'd like to use one
of my joy stick grip buttons to control the Precise Flight speed brakes.
The button is a simple push button normally open. The Precise Flight
Control Unit needs a voltage on one of two pins to control whether they are
up or down.
How can I use a push button to switch the voltage a between two lines?
Here's a screen shot of my wiring diagram in work. Note I'd also like it to
work with the toggle switch on the panel.
Thanks,
Valin
Lancair Legacy Project
Texas
Message 7
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Subject: | Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? |
Forget the push button on the stick and replace it with a three position
toggle ((up)-off-down). The toggle should be spring loaded to off from
the up position only. Run your single point ground for the speed brakes
through a two position toggle in a convenient location to control the
ground for the pilot/copilot control authority.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin
& Allyson Thorn
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 5:01 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed
Brakes?
Hello,
I've searched the archives but can't find help on this. I'd like to use
one of my joy stick grip buttons to control the Precise Flight speed
brakes. The button is a simple push button normally open. The Precise
Flight Control Unit needs a voltage on one of two pins to control
whether they are up or down.
How can I use a push button to switch the voltage a between two lines?
Here's a screen shot of my wiring diagram in work. Note I'd also like
it to work with the toggle switch on the panel.
Thanks,
Valin
Lancair Legacy Project
Texas
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? |
Thanks for the advice Bruce. I'd assume you mean replace the button switch with
a toggle switch as one can on the Infinity grips. You can't do that with the
Tosten grips. Not sure if you could see the image -- but, the Precise Flight
Control Unit requires a positive voltage across either pin 6 or 7 to move the
speed brakes up or down, respectively.
I'd really like to use the push button on the grip to just toggle the speed brakes
up or down if it's not too complicated. I'm hoping there's a special relay
that will handle that easily...
Anyone know of the best way to accomplish this?
Thanks again,
Valin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302618#302618
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed |
Brakes?
Gosh that would be confusing to fly. That means that if you have partial
speed brakes deployed, it would take 2 button presses to go to full
deployment. You would have to watch the brakes to see which way they
moved when you pressed the button to see if another press was needed.
Not good if you're on short final.
Does the SB control box have logic to control the end point or does it
continue power if the brakes are fully up/down?
I still thing a 3 position toggle is the only solution, unless you want
to fiddle with a button and only want full up/down on your brakes.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:28 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle
Speed Brakes?
Thanks for the advice Bruce. I'd assume you mean replace the button
switch with a toggle switch as one can on the Infinity grips. You can't
do that with the Tosten grips. Not sure if you could see the image --
but, the Precise Flight Control Unit requires a positive voltage across
either pin 6 or 7 to move the speed brakes up or down, respectively.
I'd really like to use the push button on the grip to just toggle the
speed brakes up or down if it's not too complicated. I'm hoping there's
a special relay that will handle that easily...
Anyone know of the best way to accomplish this?
Thanks again,
Valin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302618#302618
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? |
The Precise Flight Speed Brakes are either up or down -- no partial deployment.
There are lights on the panel for when they are deployed and you can hear and
feel the vibration from the turbulent air. I can see how you'd want what you
described if there were an in between setting rather than just deployed or not.
With just binary up or down, the push button toggle seems pretty simple operationally
to me.
Thanks,
Valin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302620#302620
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed |
Brakes?
Does the switch have to be on for the whole time the brakes are
deploying or just a momentary on and then the control box takes care of it?
Dick Tasker
Valin wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Valin"<thorn@starflight.aero>
>
> The Precise Flight Speed Brakes are either up or down -- no partial deployment.
There are lights on the panel for when they are deployed and you can hear
and feel the vibration from the turbulent air. I can see how you'd want what
you described if there were an in between setting rather than just deployed or
not.
>
> With just binary up or down, the push button toggle seems pretty simple operationally
to me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Valin
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302620#302620
>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
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Subject: | Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed |
Brakes?
I have the earlier model that allows partial settings. I would still go
for a pilot/copilot command switch. You don't want a passenger putting
on the brakes at the wrong time.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 7:18 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle
Speed Brakes?
The Precise Flight Speed Brakes are either up or down -- no partial
deployment. There are lights on the panel for when they are deployed
and you can hear and feel the vibration from the turbulent air. I can
see how you'd want what you described if there were an in between
setting rather than just deployed or not.
With just binary up or down, the push button toggle seems pretty simple
operationally to me.
Thanks,
Valin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302620#302620
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed |
Brakes?
I think it has to have a voltage applied at pin 7 continuously to keep the
speed brakes up. It's designed so that if the unit loses power they fail to
the retracted position.
Valin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
E. Tasker
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle
Speed Brakes?
<retasker@optonline.net>
Does the switch have to be on for the whole time the brakes are
deploying or just a momentary on and then the control box takes care of it?
Dick Tasker
Valin wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Valin"<thorn@starflight.aero>
>
> The Precise Flight Speed Brakes are either up or down -- no partial
deployment. There are lights on the panel for when they are deployed and
you can hear and feel the vibration from the turbulent air. I can see how
you'd want what you described if there were an in between setting rather
than just deployed or not.
>
> With just binary up or down, the push button toggle seems pretty simple
operationally to me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Valin
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302620#302620
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede,
however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily
inconvenienced.
--
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: B&C dgm |
At 10:48 AM 6/26/2010, you wrote:
>bob, here is the schematic.
> bob noffs
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Greg Jones <<mailto:greg@bandc.biz>greg@bandc.biz>
>Date: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:05 PM
>Subject: B&C dgm
>To: <mailto:icubob@gmail.com>icubob@gmail.com
>
>
>http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/504-500_Rev_F.pdf
Okay, the 20A breaker is a non-traditional
configuration of battery hot-wire protection.
I'm not sure why this was incorporated
there. If you have installed it, it should
be right at the battery . . . but it would
be better that NO breaker be installed there
and an S704-1 Battery Relay installed as a
sort of mini-battery-contactor.
In fact, if you would rather NOT installing
a battery master relay at the battery, put
a 20A inline fuse there instead. It will serve
the same purpose as a breaker located there . . .
but be 10 times faster in clearing a fault.
Use one of these from the car parts store
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/ifh-2.jpg
Substituting a 1A breaker for the 2A breaker is
fine . . . but both are considerably more expensive
than a 5A breaker which would be fine too. This
breaker would be labeled ALT CTRL. The 10A/15A
breaker in the alternator output line would be
simply labeled ALT.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
At 08:24 PM 6/26/2010, you wrote:
>I think it has to have a voltage applied at pin 7 continuously to
>keep the speed brakes up. It's designed so that if the unit loses
>power they fail to the retracted position.
This is an excellent topic for discussions of failure
mode effects analysis =AND= understand the simple-ideas
behind the system design goals.
A really important side note concerning the Precise Flight
product is that it's not a "speed brake" in the aerodynamic
sense of the phrase . . .
A speed brake is a means by which aerodynamic DRAG is
added to the mix of thrust-lift-mass-drag combination
that dictates airframe behavior/performance. Drag can
be and most often is added to the performance mix by
throwing large surface areas out into the slipstream.
I've participated in programs that crafted special
actuators to extend large panels out of aft
locations on the airplane where design goals called for
an increase in the airframe's total drag component
while having little or no effect on lift.
Large air transport aircraft will lift rather large
areas of aluminum from the top surface of the wing.
In cruising flight, only the outboard panels will
occasionally lift during roll control maneuvers. In
this mode, the panels are SPOILERS that reduce lift
on one wing at a time. Loss of lift augments rolling
moment offered by the ailerons.
However, during landing roll-out, one often sees
every square foot of aluminum through out into
the breeze with the obvious intent of making the
whole machine a very draggy aerodynamic shape where
flying efficiency is not important while slowing
down is most important.
The space shuttle has a bifurcated rudder that can
be simultaneously extend both to the right and left
of the vertical fin for the purpose of throwing out
some aerodynamic drag.
The Precise Flight product is the brainchild of on
Bill Thompson who was chief of flight test at Cessna
single engine division while I was a tech writer.
Bill was directly responsible for introducing me to
Ken Razak, former dean of engineering at Wichita
State who became my second most revered mentor,
business partner and friend with more than 40 years
of collaboration on interesting things. But that's
another story.
Bill's product first evolved on the Cessna 210
and was later approved for installation on a host
of TC aircraft. I was introduced to the device
in Kerrville, TX by a Mooney test pilot and later
on another Mooney by George Masey.
It was then that I was given to understand that
the Precise flight product is NOT A SPEED BRAKE.
It's a SPOILER. Design goals for this device call
for reducing lift on the wing while having very
little effect on total drag. The artfully installed
blades can be extended during a stabilized approach
to offer a profound effect on rate of descent
while having little effect on pitch angle or
indicated airspeed.
There are similar devices on the top of the wing
in a Beechjet that offer augmentation of tiny
ailerons for roll control in fight -OR- an increased
rate of descent when fully extended on both sides.
These also are NOT SPEED BRAKES. They might be extended
during a roll out for the purpose of killing lift
to increase weight on wheels and improve braking
by the tires . . . but their effect as aerodynamic
speed brakes is nil.
The reason why this distinction is important has
to do with proper and useful deployment of SPOILERS.
I'm working an accident case where a pilot reports
having extended his Precise Flight "speed brakes"
a few seconds before an off-airport landing. He
was under the mistaken understanding that they
would help slow things down before an un-planned
contact with the ground. In fact, the impact forces
were probably GREATER than if he had not extended
the SPOILERS at all. The net effect of extending the
Precise Flight paddles on top of the wing was to
INCREASE rate of descent to the ground.
So after understanding what these things are designed
to do for you, I'll suggest that its a really good
thing to make sure that under no circumstances
can they can extend when you don't want them to
and that they can always be retracted when they're
not needed . . . or their extension would increase
risks of bent airplanes or broken people.
When considering departures from the manufacture's
instructions, make sure that you're not crafting
a situation that increases risk of unintended
extension or loss of pilot control for that
extension. The system should probably include an
easily accessed power switch. Removal of power
from the system insures positive retraction
irrespective of what other switch becomes
stuck.
Itty-bitty switches on stick-grips are not renowned
for their robustness. Take care that your quest
for convenience does not increase risks for
un-intended consequences.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
Good Morning 'Lectric Bob,
I note this comment in your excellent dissertation concerning the
difference between speed brakes and spoilers: "The space shuttle has a bifurcated
rudder that can be simultaneously extended both to the right and left of
the vertical fin for the purpose of throwing out some aerodynamic drag."
You might recall that Ted Wells used the same device on the original Model
17 Beechcraft.
Those folks had things pretty well figured out!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 6/26/2010 11:49:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 08:24 PM 6/26/2010, you wrote:
>I think it has to have a voltage applied at pin 7 continuously to
>keep the speed brakes up. It's designed so that if the unit loses
>power they fail to the retracted position.
This is an excellent topic for discussions of failure
mode effects analysis =AND= understand the simple-ideas
behind the system design goals.
A really important side note concerning the Precise Flight
product is that it's not a "speed brake" in the aerodynamic
sense of the phrase . . .
A speed brake is a means by which aerodynamic DRAG is
added to the mix of thrust-lift-mass-drag combination
that dictates airframe behavior/performance. Drag can
be and most often is added to the performance mix by
throwing large surface areas out into the slipstream.
I've participated in programs that crafted special
actuators to extend large panels out of aft
locations on the airplane where design goals called for
an increase in the airframe's total drag component
while having little or no effect on lift.
Large air transport aircraft will lift rather large
areas of aluminum from the top surface of the wing.
In cruising flight, only the outboard panels will
occasionally lift during roll control maneuvers. In
this mode, the panels are SPOILERS that reduce lift
on one wing at a time. Loss of lift augments rolling
moment offered by the ailerons.
However, during landing roll-out, one often sees
every square foot of aluminum through out into
the breeze with the obvious intent of making the
whole machine a very draggy aerodynamic shape where
flying efficiency is not important while slowing
down is most important.
The space shuttle has a bifurcated rudder that can
be simultaneously extend both to the right and left
of the vertical fin for the purpose of throwing out
some aerodynamic drag.
The Precise Flight product is the brainchild of on
Bill Thompson who was chief of flight test at Cessna
single engine division while I was a tech writer.
Bill was directly responsible for introducing me to
Ken Razak, former dean of engineering at Wichita
State who became my second most revered mentor,
business partner and friend with more than 40 years
of collaboration on interesting things. But that's
another story.
Bill's product first evolved on the Cessna 210
and was later approved for installation on a host
of TC aircraft. I was introduced to the device
in Kerrville, TX by a Mooney test pilot and later
on another Mooney by George Masey.
It was then that I was given to understand that
the Precise flight product is NOT A SPEED BRAKE.
It's a SPOILER. Design goals for this device call
for reducing lift on the wing while having very
little effect on total drag. The artfully installed
blades can be extended during a stabilized approach
to offer a profound effect on rate of descent
while having little effect on pitch angle or
indicated airspeed.
There are similar devices on the top of the wing
in a Beechjet that offer augmentation of tiny
ailerons for roll control in fight -OR- an increased
rate of descent when fully extended on both sides.
These also are NOT SPEED BRAKES. They might be extended
during a roll out for the purpose of killing lift
to increase weight on wheels and improve braking
by the tires . . . but their effect as aerodynamic
speed brakes is nil.
The reason why this distinction is important has
to do with proper and useful deployment of SPOILERS.
I'm working an accident case where a pilot reports
having extended his Precise Flight "speed brakes"
a few seconds before an off-airport landing. He
was under the mistaken understanding that they
would help slow things down before an un-planned
contact with the ground. In fact, the impact forces
were probably GREATER than if he had not extended
the SPOILERS at all. The net effect of extending the
Precise Flight paddles on top of the wing was to
INCREASE rate of descent to the ground.
So after understanding what these things are designed
to do for you, I'll suggest that its a really good
thing to make sure that under no circumstances
can they can extend when you don't want them to
and that they can always be retracted when they're
not needed . . . or their extension would increase
risks of bent airplanes or broken people.
When considering departures from the manufacture's
instructions, make sure that you're not crafting
a situation that increases risk of unintended
extension or loss of pilot control for that
extension. The system should probably include an
easily accessed power switch. Removal of power
from the system insures positive retraction
irrespective of what other switch becomes
stuck.
Itty-bitty switches on stick-grips are not renowned
for their robustness. Take care that your quest
for convenience does not increase risks for
un-intended consequences.
Bob . . .
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