---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/26/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:49 AM - Re: Re: Audio system design (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 04:54 AM - Re: ov module (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: Audio system design (RGent1224@aol.com) 4. 08:12 AM - Voltmeter Needs Independent Power Supply (Dennis Johnson) 5. 08:49 AM - Fw: B&C dgm (bob noffs) 6. 02:03 PM - Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Valin & Allyson Thorn) 7. 03:13 PM - Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Bruce Gray) 8. 03:27 PM - Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Valin) 9. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Bruce Gray) 10. 04:18 PM - Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Valin) 11. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Richard E. Tasker) 12. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Bruce Gray) 13. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? (Valin & Allyson Thorn) 14. 08:09 PM - Re: Fw: B&C dgm (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 09:48 PM - Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 10:58 PM - Way Off Topic! Was: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? (BobsV35B@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Audio system design At 08:49 PM 6/25/2010, you wrote: >Bob >The link(below) won't work for me, neither does accessing your >catalog at your AeroElectric web site >Can you steer me in the right direction >Thanks >Dick > >In a message dated 6/25/2010 7:33:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700L.pdf > > Try starting with the front page at http://aeroelectric.com and navigate through the various index pages. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ov module At 06:27 PM 6/25/2010, you wrote: > hi bob, > i mailed you a few days ago about how to label the warning light > and 20amp breaker in my ov module. > this is on a jab 3300. i am looking at b and c diagrahm and for > some reason when i ordered the parts from them a 20 amp breaker was > substituted for a 10 or 15 amp breaker and a 1 amp was substituted > for the 2 amp. you had questioned what a 20 amp breaker was doing > in there. my answer to that is i have no idea. will the system work > with the 20 amp and the 1 amp? > i have a toggle for ''master on ''but no separate switch for the > alternator. I'm not familiar with B&C's diagram for wiring a Jab. Can you point me to a download link for it or send me an electronic copy if it's already in .pdf? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:58 AM PST US From: RGent1224@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Audio system design Bob Tried that last night and it didn't work but lo and behold today it works - Just the wonders of this age of communication. Thanks Dick In a message dated 6/26/2010 6:51:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: At 08:49 PM 6/25/2010, you wrote: Bob The link(below) won't work for me, neither does accessing your catalog at your AeroElectric web site Can you steer me in the right direction Thanks Dick In a message dated 6/25/2010 7:33:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: _http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700L.pdf_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700L.pdf) Try starting with the front page at _http://aeroelectric.com _ (http://aeroelectric.com/) and navigate through the various index pages. Bob . . . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:35 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltmeter Needs Independent Power Supply Greetings, Thanks, guys, for the helpful answers to my problems with cheap digital voltmeters that require a power supply independent of the electrical system I want to measure. For my application, which isn't far from a 120 volt AC power outlet, I'll use a 120 VAC to 12 VDC transformer to power the instruments. Of course, that would require an unusually long extension cord if this were an airplane. If other people are looking for cheap digital voltmeters, ammeters, etc. you might want to first verify if they need an independent power supply or not. Some of the ones I looked at do, and some don't, and it doesn't seem to be a matter of price. Thanks, Dennis ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: B&C dgm From: bob noffs bob, here is the schematic. bob noffs ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Greg Jones Subject: B&C dgm http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/504-500_Rev_F.pdf *Greg Jones*** * * *Greg Jones*** *Sales/Customer Service* * * *B&C Specialty Products, Inc.* *123 East 4th Street* *POB B* *Newton**, Kansas 67114 USA*** *Phone (316) 283-8000* *Fax (316) 283-7400* *Email greg@bandc.biz*** *Website www.bandc.biz* * * ** ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:06 PM PST US From: "Valin & Allyson Thorn" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? Hello, I've searched the archives but can't find help on this. I'd like to use one of my joy stick grip buttons to control the Precise Flight speed brakes. The button is a simple push button normally open. The Precise Flight Control Unit needs a voltage on one of two pins to control whether they are up or down. How can I use a push button to switch the voltage a between two lines? Here's a screen shot of my wiring diagram in work. Note I'd also like it to work with the toggle switch on the panel. Thanks, Valin Lancair Legacy Project Texas ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:47 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? Forget the push button on the stick and replace it with a three position toggle ((up)-off-down). The toggle should be spring loaded to off from the up position only. Run your single point ground for the speed brakes through a two position toggle in a convenient location to control the ground for the pilot/copilot control authority. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin & Allyson Thorn Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 5:01 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? Hello, I've searched the archives but can't find help on this. I'd like to use one of my joy stick grip buttons to control the Precise Flight speed brakes. The button is a simple push button normally open. The Precise Flight Control Unit needs a voltage on one of two pins to control whether they are up or down. How can I use a push button to switch the voltage a between two lines? Here's a screen shot of my wiring diagram in work. Note I'd also like it to work with the toggle switch on the panel. Thanks, Valin Lancair Legacy Project Texas ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:59 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? From: "Valin" Thanks for the advice Bruce. I'd assume you mean replace the button switch with a toggle switch as one can on the Infinity grips. You can't do that with the Tosten grips. Not sure if you could see the image -- but, the Precise Flight Control Unit requires a positive voltage across either pin 6 or 7 to move the speed brakes up or down, respectively. I'd really like to use the push button on the grip to just toggle the speed brakes up or down if it's not too complicated. I'm hoping there's a special relay that will handle that easily... Anyone know of the best way to accomplish this? Thanks again, Valin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302618#302618 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:13 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? Gosh that would be confusing to fly. That means that if you have partial speed brakes deployed, it would take 2 button presses to go to full deployment. You would have to watch the brakes to see which way they moved when you pressed the button to see if another press was needed. Not good if you're on short final. Does the SB control box have logic to control the end point or does it continue power if the brakes are fully up/down? I still thing a 3 position toggle is the only solution, unless you want to fiddle with a button and only want full up/down on your brakes. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:28 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? Thanks for the advice Bruce. I'd assume you mean replace the button switch with a toggle switch as one can on the Infinity grips. You can't do that with the Tosten grips. Not sure if you could see the image -- but, the Precise Flight Control Unit requires a positive voltage across either pin 6 or 7 to move the speed brakes up or down, respectively. I'd really like to use the push button on the grip to just toggle the speed brakes up or down if it's not too complicated. I'm hoping there's a special relay that will handle that easily... Anyone know of the best way to accomplish this? Thanks again, Valin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302618#302618 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:49 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? From: "Valin" The Precise Flight Speed Brakes are either up or down -- no partial deployment. There are lights on the panel for when they are deployed and you can hear and feel the vibration from the turbulent air. I can see how you'd want what you described if there were an in between setting rather than just deployed or not. With just binary up or down, the push button toggle seems pretty simple operationally to me. Thanks, Valin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302620#302620 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:15 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? Does the switch have to be on for the whole time the brakes are deploying or just a momentary on and then the control box takes care of it? Dick Tasker Valin wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Valin" > > The Precise Flight Speed Brakes are either up or down -- no partial deployment. There are lights on the panel for when they are deployed and you can hear and feel the vibration from the turbulent air. I can see how you'd want what you described if there were an in between setting rather than just deployed or not. > > With just binary up or down, the push button toggle seems pretty simple operationally to me. > > Thanks, > > Valin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302620#302620 > > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:54 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? I have the earlier model that allows partial settings. I would still go for a pilot/copilot command switch. You don't want a passenger putting on the brakes at the wrong time. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 7:18 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? The Precise Flight Speed Brakes are either up or down -- no partial deployment. There are lights on the panel for when they are deployed and you can hear and feel the vibration from the turbulent air. I can see how you'd want what you described if there were an in between setting rather than just deployed or not. With just binary up or down, the push button toggle seems pretty simple operationally to me. Thanks, Valin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302620#302620 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:00 PM PST US From: "Valin & Allyson Thorn" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? I think it has to have a voltage applied at pin 7 continuously to keep the speed brakes up. It's designed so that if the unit loses power they fail to the retracted position. Valin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard E. Tasker Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button on Joystick Grip to Toggle Speed Brakes? Does the switch have to be on for the whole time the brakes are deploying or just a momentary on and then the control box takes care of it? Dick Tasker Valin wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Valin" > > The Precise Flight Speed Brakes are either up or down -- no partial deployment. There are lights on the panel for when they are deployed and you can hear and feel the vibration from the turbulent air. I can see how you'd want what you described if there were an in between setting rather than just deployed or not. > > With just binary up or down, the push button toggle seems pretty simple operationally to me. > > Thanks, > > Valin > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302620#302620 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: B&C dgm At 10:48 AM 6/26/2010, you wrote: >bob, here is the schematic. > bob noffs >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: Greg Jones <greg@bandc.biz> >Date: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:05 PM >Subject: B&C dgm >To: icubob@gmail.com > > >http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/504-500_Rev_F.pdf Okay, the 20A breaker is a non-traditional configuration of battery hot-wire protection. I'm not sure why this was incorporated there. If you have installed it, it should be right at the battery . . . but it would be better that NO breaker be installed there and an S704-1 Battery Relay installed as a sort of mini-battery-contactor. In fact, if you would rather NOT installing a battery master relay at the battery, put a 20A inline fuse there instead. It will serve the same purpose as a breaker located there . . . but be 10 times faster in clearing a fault. Use one of these from the car parts store http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/ifh-2.jpg Substituting a 1A breaker for the 2A breaker is fine . . . but both are considerably more expensive than a 5A breaker which would be fine too. This breaker would be labeled ALT CTRL. The 10A/15A breaker in the alternator output line would be simply labeled ALT. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? At 08:24 PM 6/26/2010, you wrote: >I think it has to have a voltage applied at pin 7 continuously to >keep the speed brakes up. It's designed so that if the unit loses >power they fail to the retracted position. This is an excellent topic for discussions of failure mode effects analysis =AND= understand the simple-ideas behind the system design goals. A really important side note concerning the Precise Flight product is that it's not a "speed brake" in the aerodynamic sense of the phrase . . . A speed brake is a means by which aerodynamic DRAG is added to the mix of thrust-lift-mass-drag combination that dictates airframe behavior/performance. Drag can be and most often is added to the performance mix by throwing large surface areas out into the slipstream. I've participated in programs that crafted special actuators to extend large panels out of aft locations on the airplane where design goals called for an increase in the airframe's total drag component while having little or no effect on lift. Large air transport aircraft will lift rather large areas of aluminum from the top surface of the wing. In cruising flight, only the outboard panels will occasionally lift during roll control maneuvers. In this mode, the panels are SPOILERS that reduce lift on one wing at a time. Loss of lift augments rolling moment offered by the ailerons. However, during landing roll-out, one often sees every square foot of aluminum through out into the breeze with the obvious intent of making the whole machine a very draggy aerodynamic shape where flying efficiency is not important while slowing down is most important. The space shuttle has a bifurcated rudder that can be simultaneously extend both to the right and left of the vertical fin for the purpose of throwing out some aerodynamic drag. The Precise Flight product is the brainchild of on Bill Thompson who was chief of flight test at Cessna single engine division while I was a tech writer. Bill was directly responsible for introducing me to Ken Razak, former dean of engineering at Wichita State who became my second most revered mentor, business partner and friend with more than 40 years of collaboration on interesting things. But that's another story. Bill's product first evolved on the Cessna 210 and was later approved for installation on a host of TC aircraft. I was introduced to the device in Kerrville, TX by a Mooney test pilot and later on another Mooney by George Masey. It was then that I was given to understand that the Precise flight product is NOT A SPEED BRAKE. It's a SPOILER. Design goals for this device call for reducing lift on the wing while having very little effect on total drag. The artfully installed blades can be extended during a stabilized approach to offer a profound effect on rate of descent while having little effect on pitch angle or indicated airspeed. There are similar devices on the top of the wing in a Beechjet that offer augmentation of tiny ailerons for roll control in fight -OR- an increased rate of descent when fully extended on both sides. These also are NOT SPEED BRAKES. They might be extended during a roll out for the purpose of killing lift to increase weight on wheels and improve braking by the tires . . . but their effect as aerodynamic speed brakes is nil. The reason why this distinction is important has to do with proper and useful deployment of SPOILERS. I'm working an accident case where a pilot reports having extended his Precise Flight "speed brakes" a few seconds before an off-airport landing. He was under the mistaken understanding that they would help slow things down before an un-planned contact with the ground. In fact, the impact forces were probably GREATER than if he had not extended the SPOILERS at all. The net effect of extending the Precise Flight paddles on top of the wing was to INCREASE rate of descent to the ground. So after understanding what these things are designed to do for you, I'll suggest that its a really good thing to make sure that under no circumstances can they can extend when you don't want them to and that they can always be retracted when they're not needed . . . or their extension would increase risks of bent airplanes or broken people. When considering departures from the manufacture's instructions, make sure that you're not crafting a situation that increases risk of unintended extension or loss of pilot control for that extension. The system should probably include an easily accessed power switch. Removal of power from the system insures positive retraction irrespective of what other switch becomes stuck. Itty-bitty switches on stick-grips are not renowned for their robustness. Take care that your quest for convenience does not increase risks for un-intended consequences. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:23 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Way Off Topic! Was: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? Good Morning 'Lectric Bob, I note this comment in your excellent dissertation concerning the difference between speed brakes and spoilers: "The space shuttle has a bifurcated rudder that can be simultaneously extended both to the right and left of the vertical fin for the purpose of throwing out some aerodynamic drag." You might recall that Ted Wells used the same device on the original Model 17 Beechcraft. Those folks had things pretty well figured out! Happy Skies, Old Bob Do Not Archive In a message dated 6/26/2010 11:49:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:24 PM 6/26/2010, you wrote: >I think it has to have a voltage applied at pin 7 continuously to >keep the speed brakes up. It's designed so that if the unit loses >power they fail to the retracted position. This is an excellent topic for discussions of failure mode effects analysis =AND= understand the simple-ideas behind the system design goals. A really important side note concerning the Precise Flight product is that it's not a "speed brake" in the aerodynamic sense of the phrase . . . A speed brake is a means by which aerodynamic DRAG is added to the mix of thrust-lift-mass-drag combination that dictates airframe behavior/performance. Drag can be and most often is added to the performance mix by throwing large surface areas out into the slipstream. I've participated in programs that crafted special actuators to extend large panels out of aft locations on the airplane where design goals called for an increase in the airframe's total drag component while having little or no effect on lift. Large air transport aircraft will lift rather large areas of aluminum from the top surface of the wing. In cruising flight, only the outboard panels will occasionally lift during roll control maneuvers. In this mode, the panels are SPOILERS that reduce lift on one wing at a time. Loss of lift augments rolling moment offered by the ailerons. However, during landing roll-out, one often sees every square foot of aluminum through out into the breeze with the obvious intent of making the whole machine a very draggy aerodynamic shape where flying efficiency is not important while slowing down is most important. The space shuttle has a bifurcated rudder that can be simultaneously extend both to the right and left of the vertical fin for the purpose of throwing out some aerodynamic drag. The Precise Flight product is the brainchild of on Bill Thompson who was chief of flight test at Cessna single engine division while I was a tech writer. Bill was directly responsible for introducing me to Ken Razak, former dean of engineering at Wichita State who became my second most revered mentor, business partner and friend with more than 40 years of collaboration on interesting things. But that's another story. Bill's product first evolved on the Cessna 210 and was later approved for installation on a host of TC aircraft. I was introduced to the device in Kerrville, TX by a Mooney test pilot and later on another Mooney by George Masey. It was then that I was given to understand that the Precise flight product is NOT A SPEED BRAKE. It's a SPOILER. Design goals for this device call for reducing lift on the wing while having very little effect on total drag. The artfully installed blades can be extended during a stabilized approach to offer a profound effect on rate of descent while having little effect on pitch angle or indicated airspeed. There are similar devices on the top of the wing in a Beechjet that offer augmentation of tiny ailerons for roll control in fight -OR- an increased rate of descent when fully extended on both sides. These also are NOT SPEED BRAKES. They might be extended during a roll out for the purpose of killing lift to increase weight on wheels and improve braking by the tires . . . but their effect as aerodynamic speed brakes is nil. The reason why this distinction is important has to do with proper and useful deployment of SPOILERS. I'm working an accident case where a pilot reports having extended his Precise Flight "speed brakes" a few seconds before an off-airport landing. He was under the mistaken understanding that they would help slow things down before an un-planned contact with the ground. In fact, the impact forces were probably GREATER than if he had not extended the SPOILERS at all. The net effect of extending the Precise Flight paddles on top of the wing was to INCREASE rate of descent to the ground. So after understanding what these things are designed to do for you, I'll suggest that its a really good thing to make sure that under no circumstances can they can extend when you don't want them to and that they can always be retracted when they're not needed . . . or their extension would increase risks of bent airplanes or broken people. When considering departures from the manufacture's instructions, make sure that you're not crafting a situation that increases risk of unintended extension or loss of pilot control for that extension. The system should probably include an easily accessed power switch. Removal of power from the system insures positive retraction irrespective of what other switch becomes stuck. Itty-bitty switches on stick-grips are not renowned for their robustness. Take care that your quest for convenience does not increase risks for un-intended consequences. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.