Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:57 AM - Follow Up, New Engine Monitor and T&B on eBay (Harley)
2. 07:07 AM - Re: Power Schematic for Review (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:53 AM - Re: New Z-8 drawing (jonlaury)
4. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: New Z-8 drawing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Follow Up, New Engine Monitor and T&B on eBay |
Just a follow up RE the eBay sale of my brand new,
IK-technologies EMS and Trutak Pictorial Turn Coordinator.
Only a few days left, and it really looks like someone is going
to get a real bargain for either of them. So, if you want a NEW
EMS or Trutrak, at a VERY decent price, now is the time to have a
look.
The "Buy It Now" price is even below the current market price.
For ALL the details and several pictures, just search eBay for
the item number 350376359107 and 350375561835.
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
Canandaigua, NY
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Power Schematic for Review |
At 01:20 PM 7/30/2010, you wrote:
>
>I have laid out a preliminary electrical system schematic for an all
>metal aircraft (Sonex) powered by a Jabiru 3300 engine. I would
>appreciate Bob's and other lister's comments. I have not yet done a
>complete Bus Load analysis so some of the wire sizes, fuse sizes and
>other options could change. I have not included the ignition
>systems in that they are totally independent of the aircraft electrical system.
>
>In considering the possible Z figures, I found that Z20 (small
>Jabiru) and Z21 (J3300) did not quite offer what I was hoping to
>accomplish. I believe that Z16 (Rotax 912/914) offered what I would
>like to have as a basis.
>
>Even though we have been cautioned about cherry picking the various
>Z figures, there are some features in other Z figures that I would
>like to incorporate.
"Cherry picking" refers to items that drive architecture,
and failure mode effects analysis. Functional accessories
like ov protection, lvwarn, ground power, etc. are add-on
features that can be selected from a variety of styles.
> * First, I would like to incorporate the soon to be available
> AEC9024 device for control of the master contactor, the OV
> disconnect relay and as a LV warning device. I cherry picked this
> from Z09 and Z-Laury. I might not have the pin-outs correct, but
> that can be updated easily at a later time, when the specs are
> published. I like the idea of a "Breaker-less" panel.
The the pinouts are driven by the etched circuit
board layouts. Finished that last week and got boards
in yesterday. The pinouts illustrated in Z-08
are consistent with the boards.
> * I would like to use the JD101406 Rectifier/Regulator, as in
> Z09, in place of the Jabiru supplied unit. I understand that this
> might be a more robust option.
John Deere has consistently offered a bit more
heat-sink performance on their rectifier/regulators
so your substitution is probably a good thing. Do
you know anyone else who has made this substitution
and is flying it?
> * I would like to have the Alternator OV Disconnect Relay to
> Open one of the Dynamo leads as in Z16 instead of the +B lead as in Z2
Okay
> * There are two other major options that I would like to consider:
> * BROWNOUT BATTERY WITH B/O RELAY. This as is illustrated in
> Z10-8. I am considering a MGL EFIS system. They (and others, I
> believe) offer an option to use a backup battery that is exclusive
> to powering the EFIS and its accessories. I think that a well
> designed and crafted E-Bus system makes this exclusive backup
> unnecessary and redundant. The exclusive backup battery cannot be
> kept charged unless turned "ON" during operation of the EFIS from
> the main power source. The Z-10-8 type of backup not only offers a
> seamless full voltage for ALL E-Bus items, during cranking to
> start, but adds to the alternator out E-Bus operating time
> capacity. It will also be topped off and maintained automatically
> when the main battery is connected to a remote maintainer through
> the Aux. 12V. Power plug in the panel.
Are you aware that the alternator on this engine is good
for 20A? What size battery are you planning for the
main battery? How much weight/volume are you willing
to dedicate to a brown-out mitigation system? Are you
sure that it's necessary/useful? The devices on your
e-bus may not need brownout protection if the internal
resistance of the main battery combined with inrush
characteristics of the starter don't depress the
bus enough to cause re-sets. Finally, one could always
start the engine before turning on devices that have
re-set issues . . . or just let them re-set.
You've got a LOT of electro-whizzies planned for this
project. Is this a night or ifr cross-country machine?
> * E-BUS ALTERNATE FEED RELAY. This as in Z32. In that I have
> not finalized the calculation of the E-Bus loads, this may or may
> not be needed. What is the continuous (and intermittent) E-Bus
> amperage point at which the relay should be implemented? I have
> incorporated a LED light indicator to show that the E-Bus feed is
> closed (ON) in any case.
With a 20A main alternator and a limited size
for a main battery (this isn't going to be a
C-210!!), your e-bus loads should be cultivated
down to those described in the original writings
about an e-bus. If your e-bus loads are more than
a few amps, then your demonstrated performance
is going to be disappointing.
>
>The other thing that needs to be reviewed is the use of
>FUSEABLELINKS. We have also been cautioned to not incorporate them
>accept in special considerations so please comment:
> * Fuseablelink in the alternator +B lead at the starter
> contactor as in Z16, Z18, Z20 and in the alt alternator +B lead to
> the hot side of the main battery contactor of Z8.
> * Fuseablelink in the E-Bus alternate feed path at the
> connection to the E-Bus as in Z13-8 and Z13-8 E-Bus Feeders.
> * Fuseablelink in the E-Bus alternate feed from the hot side of
> the battery contactor as in Z16 and Z18.
> * Fuseablelink at the B/O battery hot lead to the E-Bus alt.
> feed relay or switch. In this use I could not find illustration in
> the Z figures. However I think that it might be logical to assume
> that this use is OK if the use mentioned directly above from the
> hot side of the main battery is OK.
Fusible links are fine where shown in z-figures, no
where else. Further, the alternator b-lead link can be replaced
with a MAX in-line fuse holder and in the case of your
Jab3300 alternator, a 30A fuse.
>I have attached a four page illustration that shows all
>options. The first page (D) shows the inclusion of both
>options. Next (C) and (B) illustrate the two options implemented
>singly. The last page (A) includes neither option.
Suggest you get your load analysis done first
and know exactly what you CAN run in this system
and under what anticipated flight conditions. The
forms for doing a load analysis are available
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/
There are printed forms for a paper analysis
and sample Excel files for a paperless analysis.
You've spent a lot of time producing the
drawings but it's not clear that you've
sized the system and planned accessories to
the engine's alternator or to the airplane's
missions.
You've expressed some concerns for keeping an
EFIS system up and running . . . do you
anticipate deliberate IFR ops? If so, what's
your backup plan for the EFIS going south?
Needle-ball-airspeed? Are you planning LOC/GS
capability? What radios instruments are needed
to support that activity?
I can suggest that in 1000 hrs and 30 years
of flying, much of that time at night, that
I've never had or even desired the ability
to bore holes in clouds under the watchful
eyes of guys on the ground. I was ready to
take my check-ride for an instrument ticket
and the flight examiner gigged the airplane
I had rented because there was no radio
station license on board. My credit for
the written was running out in a few days
and my work schedule was going to hose a
rescheduled ride. I also considered the $time$
necessary to keep the ticket current. I decided
that the design goal was to be able to bail my
buns out of a poor visibility situation. The
investment of time, talent and resources to
be worthy of the benevolence and permission
of others to practice a good and necessary
skill did not add value to the goal.
After that I kept my skills up to my own satisfaction
knowing that should I do something stupid for
being there in the first place, the hazards
against saving the day were no worse whether or
not I had the right piece of paper in my wallet
or in the ship's documents.
The point is that your airplane's electrical
power supply, space on the panel, volume and
weight limits are a finite resource. As with
our automobiles, it's really easy to stack
lots of bells and whistles into the mix . . .
but they have their own cost of ownership
issues. My son is having a several hundred
dollar repair done to his electronically
controlled a/c in his 2000 van . . . my 1987
GMC has ON/OFF switch and some manually
positioned flapper valves that have not missed
a lick in 23 years.
Depending on how you KNOW you're going to
use the airplane, you may well find yourself
lacking some functionality because hammers
and saws were substituted with more expensive,
more complex and less reliable nail guns
and laser cutters.
Keep in mind too that this is an opportunity
to do something BETTER than what's handed to
you in a C-172 over which you have no control.
At the same time, you'll probably find that
should you need to rent a C-172 because your
airplane is down for maintenance, that you
won't be climbing into the Cessna with
trepidation growing out of some knowledge that
YOUR airplane has electrical system features
that the Cessna doesn't have.
Suggest you nail down a mission statement
for the airplane along with a load-analysis
that is serviceable with the alternator and
battery combination. Then take the Z-16
as published and nit-pick it for potential
operational failures that beg adjustment
by adding features or changes to architecture.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
Hi Bob,
When you said
> Discussions with Jon Laury combined with conversation
> about the abortive Z-13/8 architecture some months
> ago have prompted a new Z-figure
did you mean Z-13/20 here?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306943#306943
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
At 09:52 AM 7/31/2010, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>When you said
>
>
> > Discussions with Jon Laury combined with conversation
> > about the abortive Z-13/8 architecture some months
> > ago have prompted a new Z-figure
>
>
> did you mean Z-13/20 here?
yes . . .
Bob . . .
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