AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 08/10/10


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:24 AM - Re: Z14 regulator voltages (Bob Barrow)
     2. 06:12 AM - Was-Power Schematic for Review-now-JD AM101406 (Gordon Smith)
     3. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Z14 regulator voltages (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 08:07 AM - Electrically-Dependent Dual Battery, Single Alternator Syst (creightonious)
     5. 08:09 AM - JD AM101406 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 08:36 AM - Was-Power Schematic for Review-now-Mission Statement & Load Analysis (Gordon Smith)
     7. 09:20 AM - GROUND LOOPS (Tim Andres)
     8. 10:21 AM - Re: GROUND LOOPS (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
     9. 10:58 AM - Re: New Z-8 drawing (jonlaury)
    10. 02:01 PM - Re: GROUND LOOPS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: New Z-8 drawing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    12. 02:31 PM - Re: Battery tender (David LLoyd)
    13. 07:26 PM - CdS Photocell Holder/Fixture (David E. Nelson)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:24:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Z14 regulator voltages
    From: "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10@hotmail.com>
    Yep, I take your point Bob. However the engine management system on my EFIS of choice will only provide me with a voltage reading on both buses if I actually source power from both buses via a primary and secondary power input. And I really want a voltage reading for both buses. My ignorance was in thinking that the EFIS would source power from the bus of higher voltage...and that it would oscillate constantly between the two buses if they had similar voltages. But the EFIS manufacturer now advises me that this is not how it works. In fact the EFIS always draws power from the primary bus, and only switches to the secondary bus if the voltage on the primary bus drops below approx 8 volts. Of course having a seamless transition to the secondary bus in the event of a catastrophic failure of the primary bus ensures that there is no reboot and therefore no loss of potentially crucial flight information. Six years of building and I'm still learning something new virtually every day. It's great. And the "Connection" is the most fabulous of resources. Cheers Bob Barrow My question is what voltage should I set the secondary bus to: would 14.0 volts do the trick. Why are you doing this? The whole idea behind Z-14 was to cover any single point of failure with a robust plan-b. What kind of event do you anticipate that takes down an entire bus structure such that "dual sources" for some appliances is called for? The whole architecture of Z-14 is already set up to offer 4 sources of power for everything in the airplane no matter what bus the device is fed from. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308167#308167


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:12:36 AM PST US
    From: "Gordon Smith" <gordonrsmith921@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Was-Power Schematic for Review-now-JD AM101406
    I would like to answer Bob N.'s points and questions from July 30, 2010, in parts. This is about the John Deere Rectifier/Regulator AM101406 I would like to use the JD101406 Rectifier/Regulator, as in Z09,in place of the Jabiru supplied unit. I understand that this might be a more robust option. John Deere has consistently offered a bit more heat-sink performance on their rectifier/regulators so your substitution is probably a good thing. Do you know anyone else who has made this substitution and is flying it? No. I had thought that I had read that Bob had recommended this. With more research, I found 21 posts about AM101406 going back to 2001. I find that Bob has said such things as "consider" and "a possible solution", etc. However the following items influenced my decision to plan on using the JD R/R unit: >From Matronics: Here in Australia a lot of people have ditched the std Kabota tractor Regulator supplied with the Jab engine as they only tend to last 6 months .( although some have lasted years). if you have any elec problem's, the first step is to chuck the old reg and buy another one and also carry a spare on fly aways. Or use a Powermate or some other product that meets your needs Consider one of the John Deere tractor regulators like the AM101406. These are heavy duty critters with hefty heat sinks. I certainly did not want to think about having to carry a spare R/R when going cross country. Also from Matronics: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/dynamo.html This person reports 800 no problem hours using the JD R/R however it is with a JD alternator. Following is a quote from the website: OK, so then I dropped by the John Deere dealer and asked the guy at the counter how many of those he sold...I asked about the regulators and he said "the only call I have for those is from these guys that are putting them on airplanes". Also Bob's Z09 shows the JD R/R (but again coupled to a JD alternator in a Corvair conversion). With additional research, I decided that I liked the idea of using the JD unit especially if it is designed for use at 35 amps (the Jab alternator is only 20 Amps). Also if the Jab supplied Kabota R/R is fragile as indicated, I would like to use something more robust. My research also revealed that JD may not continue to be supplying the same R/R as discussed here. See my posting of June 24 2010. It also appears that different manufacturers might build their R/R in the same OEM heat sink. The Kabota looks like it is built in the same heat sink as the JD. And some are built in heat sinks with almost no cooling fin area. Gordon Smith


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:44:59 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Z14 regulator voltages
    At 03:23 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote: ><bobbarrow10@hotmail.com> > >Yep, I take your point Bob. However the engine management system on >my EFIS of choice will only provide me with a voltage reading on >both buses if I actually source power from both buses via a primary >and secondary power input. And I really want a voltage reading for both buses. These are independent electrical systems and would normally be fitted with separate voltmeters. They certainly need to be fitted with their own active notification of low voltage. >My ignorance was in thinking that the EFIS would source power from >the bus of higher voltage...and that it would oscillate constantly >between the two buses if they had similar voltages. But the EFIS >manufacturer now advises me that this is not how it works. > >In fact the EFIS always draws power from the primary bus, and only >switches to the secondary bus if the voltage on the primary bus >drops below approx 8 volts. > >Of course having a seamless transition to the secondary bus in the >event of a catastrophic failure of the primary bus ensures that >there is no reboot and therefore no loss of potentially crucial >flight information. We've had a lot of builders investing intellectual and emotional capital in devising golden power sources for devices that are not themselves golden. Failure TOLERANT design assumes that EVERY installed item is subject to failure from defect, wear-out or improper installation. The elegant design uses the minimum of components and operating procedures to detect and react to any single failure for any reason. With a cross-feed contactor closed, All the busses in Z-14 enjoy (count 'em) FOUR separate sources of electrical energy. Detecting and reacting to loss of an alternator requires nothing more than active notification of low voltage for each bus. All contactors are pre-flight tested and the cross feed contactor is normally left off in flight. The layers of capability to react to a failure in this system are many and robust. Catastrophic failures don't happen. Some single component fails which MIGHT produce a reduced bus voltage . . . but doesn't take it to zero. Do you plan to spend a lot of time boring pathways through clouds? If your EFIS suffers its own failure, what is your plan for dealing with it? It is many times more likely that your EFIS wanders off into the weeds than it is to loose power. We'll have several options available for monitoring the health of a multi-source electrical system. One interesting device is the 9011 multi-channel monitor. Two such devices installed on Z-14 would provide real time monitoring of both alternators and battery contactors. >Six years of building and I'm still learning something new virtually >every day. It's great. And the "Connection" is the most fabulous of resources. I'm pleased that you find the work useful. It's been a great project for me in that much of what I've been able to share with the OBAM aircraft community is not understood/practiced by segments of the TC aircraft community. Attempts to help them understand and react to this condition have thus far been un-successful. They don't know what they don't know and cannot appreciate the increased risks, costs of certification, manufacturing and ownership that accompanies such ignorance. You folks are building some of the most utilitarian, low cost and lowest risk airplanes in the world. I am pleased to be a participant in that endeavor. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:07:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Electrically-Dependent Dual Battery, Single Alternator
    Syst
    From: "creightonious" <crouton@well.com>
    I've posted previously about this and some conceptual progress has been made. The system is based upon Z-19. It differs principally in that it incorporates two independent, stand-alone EFI systems. There is no commonality beyond the tank selector and neither is a back-up, rather I conceive of them as a Monday and a Tuesday system. Only one system can be used at a time and each is used on alternate flights. The EFI system draw is approximately 10 amps and as conceived the Engine Battery Bus and the Main Battery Bus are primarily the EFI Bus 1 and 2, respectively. So far so good. Note that each of these busses is run off the hot (non-switched) side of the respective contactor. (The Bat Bus switch is a race car switch to reduce draw by 1 amp). The problem enters thus: Each EFI system must be able to be powered by either battery. (1 at a time) Absent a number of switches/relays on the bus feeds there doesn't seem to be an elegant way to isolate the batteries. Back feeding can be handled by heat-sinked schottky diodes (4 of them in this case) The result is effectively a single large (2x) battery when running in an alternator-out situation. This may not be a bad thing, assuming 2 good batteries, but I am more comfortable with the scenario of running 1 battery down, switching to the other and having a known drop-dead (literally) time upon which to depend. Which, of course, requires the ability to isolate the batteries. I apologize for the long-winded post, but decisions must be put into tinned copper and tefzel and I plead for some wisdom from the forum. Many thanks, Creighton Smith Rotax 912 P.S. I wish I could add a second alternator, but the intake manifold and runners don't leave enough space and the stock alternator is replaced by the ignition hall effect crank sensor and a 50 amp, belt driven IR alternator. C S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308207#308207


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:09:08 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: JD AM101406
    At 07:44 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote: Gordon, Your diligence and research are commendable. It's true that words I wrote about this product allowed me some "wiggle room". The reason being that I had no first hand experience or knowledge of . . . nor did I know anyone else who had successfully integrated this device into their airplane. > >I had thought that I had read that Bob had recommended this. With >more research, I found 21 posts about AM101406 going back to >2001. I find that Bob has said such things as "consider" and "a >possible solution", etc. I includes the JD product in Z9 because it was part of the experience and skill set for one William Wynne of http://www.flycorvair.com I've met Bill at several fly-ins, attended his forums and conversed with him at length by email and phone. If Bill tells me that the AM101406 met his design goals I'm inclined to believe his assertion is correct . . . and worthy of tribute in the AeroElectric Connection. His teachings relieved me of any need to to "wiggle". Many of you will recall some tense discussions held here on the List about various features and capabilities of alternators from a variety of sources. I was similarly crippled in those discussions in that the only data I had was from my experiences as a consultant to B&C . . . and what I could deduce from various manufacturer's data sheets. A couple of years ago I was honored with an invitation to join members of this List on a tour of an alternator re-manufacturing facility. Details of that experience were added to the most recent update to the chapter on alternators in the 'Connection. The upshot being that I can now speak from foundations of personal observation and experience. What a difference experience makes! The fact that we can combine the experience of similarly motivated individuals on the Lists, in books and websites makes the sum total a powerful resource for reduction of $time$ and risk for producing useful airplanes. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:36:40 AM PST US
    From: "Gordon Smith" <gordonrsmith921@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Was-Power Schematic for Review-now-Mission Statement
    & Load Analysis I would like to answer Bob N.'s points and questions from July 30, 2010, in parts. This is about the Mission Statement and Load Analysis for a Jabiru 3300 powered Sonex. Mission Statement: * Principally to be a Day VFR Recreational Aircraft. * Capability of Occasional Day VFR Cross Country. * Capability of Occasional Night VFR. * Capability of limited IFR (no intentional hard IFC) if accidentally caught ON-TOP and needing a clearance to descend through a layer. I remember that the first C-150 that I trained in had this capability. I was trained under the hood for recovery from unusual attitudes (in case of accidentally doing something stupid). EFIS backup would include a slip/skid indicator and a panel mounted second GPS with a couple of hours of internal battery power. This could provide approximate airspeed and GPS generated attitude information. I understand that this is limited info, however in a stable decent can be used with understanding of its limits. I am planning no ground based NAV receiver capability. I understand that this aircraft has limited alternator capacity (20A.) and panel space. I am planning that the main AC battery will be an Odyssey PC625 at 17 or 18 AH capacity. I find that in modern avionics and lighting, there are some very efficient (if expensive) options. Lighting for this AC will be all LED or HID, inside and out. I intend wing tip LED Strobe/Position lights and Wig-Wag HID landing lights for day or night visibility of the AC. There are electrically efficient avionics that include remote COMs (with internal intercom), remote Transponder all commanded by the EFIS (minimum panel space required). I have completed an Excel spreadsheet Load Analysis. This can be posted if anyone wants to see the detail. The highest E-bus load under all conditions day or night is under 5 Amps. The highest Main Bus load, day is less than 9 Amps - night is just over 11 Amps. Total max loads runs under 14 Amps Day (using Wig-Wag & Strobes); night max is a little over 16 Amps on decent to landing (less than 15 Amps in night cruise). This appears to meet the recommended 75% max load condition total bus loads. If I am underestimating E-bus load and it will be as much as 6 or 7 Amps, this should be OK with a simple Switch for E-bus alternate feed and no need of a relay. At 5 or 6 Amps E-bus load, is a heat sink needed for the normal feed diode mounted on aircraft structural metal? Also with this E-bus load perhaps the E-bus feeds should be downsized from 16AWG to 18AWG or even 20AWG? Also Bob wrote: The devices on your e-bus may not need brownout protection if the internal resistance of the main battery combined with inrush characteristics of the starter don't depress the bus enough to cause re-sets. Does anyone have any data or experience regarding this point? Given starting a Jab3300 with a PC625 battery in good condition during ambient conditions of greater than 60 degrees F.? Gordon Smith


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:20:46 AM PST US
    From: "Tim Andres" <tim2542@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: GROUND LOOPS
    So I left my Aerolectric book at work and have a quick question. Composite A/C, rear engine, Battery. IIRC, I will need to run power and ground runs to the Strobe power pack, Fuel Pump and Nav lights, the grounds running all the way back up to the panel ground. I can't just hit the local ground that is right there at the Battery near these components. Is this correct practice? I'd be tempted to use the Firewall ground for the NAV and Fuel pump. <mailto:rnbraud@yahoo.com> Thanks, Tim Andres


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:21:13 AM PST US
    From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: GROUND LOOPS
    If you just keep it going straight, no ground loops! Mauledriver (sorry) do not archive Tim Andres wrote: > > So I left my Aerolectric book at work and have a quick question. > > Composite A/C, rear engine, Battery. > > IIRC, I will need to run power and ground runs to the Strobe power > pack, Fuel Pump and Nav lights, the grounds running all the way back > up to the panel ground. I cant just hit the local ground that is > right there at the Battery near these components. Is this correct > practice? Id be tempted to use the Firewall ground for the NAV and > Fuel pump. > > Thanks, Tim Andres > > * > > > *


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:58:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing
    From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
    > The ground power lead can't go through the MANL40. Sometimes I get so buried in how it all connects that I overlook what it's for. Thanks for catching that. > What's your s/b > alternator/regulator combination again? > Main alt, 60a with LR3 Stby, 40a with a generic Ford regulator. [/quote]better yet, the 9011 dual LV monitor can watch both the battery and main busses and perhaps handle s/b alt OV too. > > > Is the 9011 available from the AEC? Or do I need to roll my own? > > John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308245#308245


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:01:38 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: GROUND LOOPS
    At 11:16 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote: >So I left my Aerolectric book at work and have a quick question. >Composite A/C, rear engine, Battery. >IIRC, I will need to run power and ground runs to the Strobe power >pack, Fuel Pump and Nav lights, the grounds running all the way back >up to the panel ground. I can't just hit the local ground that is >right there at the Battery near these components. Is this correct >practice? I'd be tempted to use the Firewall ground for the NAV and >Fuel pump. These devices are neither potential antagonists or victims. As shown in Z-15, they can be grounded "locally" on a metal airplane. This translates to "closest practical" locations on a plastic airplane, Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 02:10:34 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing
    >> What's your s/b >> alternator/regulator combination again? > Main alt, 60a with LR3 > Stby, 40a with a generic Ford regulator. >> better yet, the 9011 dual LV monitor >> can watch both the battery and main busses >> and perhaps handle s/b alt OV too. Okay, we can press a 9024 into service as dual LV warning only. Another 9024 would take care of lv warning for both battery and main busses PLUS ov protection for the S/B alternator. > Is the 9011 available from the AEC? Or do I need to roll my own? The 9011 is all done except for writing the installation manual and getting it into production. Proof of concept articles have been flying for awhile with no unhappy feedback. The 9011 will be right on the heels of the 9024. Also, the amber LED warning light fixtures illustrated at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/ are available. I could probably come up with placards too. Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:31:03 PM PST US
    From: "David LLoyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Battery tender
    Bill, I will be gone for a week or so.... I will try to remember when I get back and into my hangar to find the details I saved on 'which' pot handles the float voltage setting and which pot wiper arm direction will increase the voltage. Bug me, if you do not hear from my in 10 days or so...... Another thought.... when I first had my problem, several years ago, I called the manuf. and talked to the owner or someone that knew what I was talking about. After convincing him that I could handle the adjustment job, he told me which pot did what. So, you might try and call them and see if they are still hospitable about the answers...... David ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Hibbing To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 6:32 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender Thanks David, I took Lectric Bob's advice and bought a Schumacher at WallyWorld for about $20 or so. But I still have the unit in question so I'm going to play around with it and see what I can do...when it cools off a bit here in Memphis. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: David LLoyd To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 8:00 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender Bill, The BT is mass produced in a foreign land like everything else this country now uses. Inside the box are two adjustable mini-pots. They were obviously set wrong as the float voltage should be about 13.1 to 13.3 volts. If you are handy you can change the float voltage pot. It is silicone'd to hold its setting so a little exacto knifing has to be done to get the pot to move. The pot change needed is "tiny" so if opened, go in baby sets and always do the experiment with a battery connected to the outputs and allow an hour or more for the new setting to stabilize. Otherwise....just get another unit and test it thoroughly when opened so you can take it back if the settings are wrong. Be sure to use a good volt meter. David ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Hibbing To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 9:26 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender I've got a BatteryTender Plus that has a float voltage of 12.7 volts. This is on both a new battery and the one that is being replaced. Is it time for a new Batterytender? Bill Glasair SIIS-FT href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- - Release Date: 08/09/10 13:35:00


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:26:40 PM PST US
    From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson@pobox.com>
    Subject: CdS Photocell Holder/Fixture
    Hi All, I'm trying to locate a holder/fixture for a CdS photocell (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=PDV-P9203-ND) so that I can mount one on the panel. Google, Mouser, and Digikey searches just don't seem to be working for me. Thank you, /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~




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