---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/25/10: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:10 AM - Re: GPS outage in fiberglass plane (Jeffrey Bougher) 2. 07:16 AM - GRT EIS-Fuel Sender (MHerder) 3. 07:41 AM - Re: GPS outage in fiberglass plane (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 4. 12:38 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/23/10 (kent@cybermesa.com) 5. 08:22 PM - Re: GRT EIS-Fuel Sender (Dennis & Anne Glaeser) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:12 AM PST US From: Jeffrey Bougher Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS outage in fiberglass plane Wow, thanks for all the comments and suggestions ... I had to get a notepad out to write them all down. I think I have answers to most questions. To troubleshoot, two suggestions that I'm definitely going to follow are: 1) Move the 396 antenna further from 430 antenna - I'll stick in armpit pocket in back seat - nothing but think fiberglass and some fabric between it and sky. 2) Next time it occurs, try changing radio frequencies one by one, I will include transponder. If this doesn't work, try killing each radio sequentially to see if that helps. 3) If above doesn't work, kill all electric and see if 396 picks up satellites. Now, to answer a few questions and see if this brings more light to the problem: * When I had 430W upgrade, I got new antenna. The puck mount is a smidge different so I need to modify mount on plane. Avionics shop said 430 would work fine with old antenna, but it wouldn't be a 430W. * The 430 antenna is mounted directly under the front access panel. It is probably within 1 foot of battery and ELT antenna. The 396 antenna is a Garmin remote antenna and sits on the glare shield - maybe 2 feet horizontally from the 430 antenna. * The 430 antenna has a pretty straight shot directly to radio. Cable was fabricated by avionics shop. It was replaced about 5 years ago when I had complete GPS failure due to bad wire ... mode this time is different (intermittent). The 396 antenna is also 5 years old, but in a little worse shape since it is not mounted and gets handled much more. The * The 396 antenna sits immediately next to the XM antenna on the glare shield. Both are routes somewhat haphazardly around the edge of the glareshield. I would say they are trapped between edge of glareshield and sidewall, but they are not pinched. The 396 cable has never been modified Final note, my experience means that I don't really trust GPS. I've stayed pretty good at flying VORs and always have 2 flight plans on my knee board - direct and VOR. Fortunately, I have a DME which makes VOR flying much easier. Unfortunately I don't have an RNAV like I used to have in my Cessna. I LOVED the RNAV and was going to put one in my Velocity, but had several people tell me they were maintenance nightmares. So far, the 430 has been the most troublesome part of my aircraft ownership experience. When it works it is all sugar and sunshine, when it goes out, it back to the VORs. On 8/24/2010 6:54 AM, Jeffrey Bougher wrote: I fly a purchased Velocity. I'm about 1/3 through Bob's book and generally not good with electrical issues - hence the book. What I have learned is that there is a lot of knowledge on this board. > >I have the following problem. On the ground, panel mounted Garmin 430 >and portable Garmin 396 work fine. Take-off and fly for 20-45 minutes >and I lose GPS signal on both almost simultaneously. Sometimes I get >GPS signal back, sometimes I don't. Sometimes when I get GPS signal >back it is intermittent. When I look at the 396 GPS page, it doesn't >show ANY signal on ANY satellite. Sometime around touchdown I get GPS >back ... I'm not really looking until taxiway, so don't know when, but >ON the ground GPS seems to always be able to acquire. > >Two recent sample flights. >Depart both GPSs working, then 40 minutes into flight, both drop GPS >at about same time. This is a 2:20 flight. After another 30 minutes, >430 picks up satellites and maintains through rest of flight. The 396 >doesn't pick up satellites until back on the ground. > >Return flight, both GPSs working on ground. Sometime around 30-40 >minutes into flight, both drop GPS at about same time. After 1 hour - >1:15, the 396 reacquires satellites. The 430 never reacquires until >back on ground. > >Notes: >* The 396 is new to me. I had borrowed it previously on occasion and >had similar occurrence twice. This was a few years back and, if I >recall, both occurrences were an hour or more into flight. >* The 430 was recently upgraded from 430 to 430W, but I'm still flying >on the 430 antenna. As stated above, had problem before, but it seems >MUCH more consistent now. >* I had flight following on one of these occurrences and asked center >if there was know problem. Answer was NO and about 3 planes on >station reported no problems. >* Both flights above, there was much humidity in the air and I was >under a lowish cloud deck. I don't recall conditions on previous >events. >* I've tried using 396 plugged into cigarette lighter and running only >on battery and it makes no difference. > >Any thoughts? > >Thanks, >Jeff > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: GRT EIS-Fuel Sender From: "MHerder" Ive installed my senders (resistance type) and routed the 4.7v excitation and the required resistor to the sender Heres my question: How is it safe to route 4.7 volts to a fuel tank with current traveling through the tank? Spark kaboom? Is there something Im missing? -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310086#310086 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:16 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS outage in fiberglass plane I'd note that in the case of the 430W antenna (I understand you are using 430 antenna), a minimum level for the antenna coax is specified. A straight shot may not be ideal. The length of cable in all GPS antenna seems to be something to pay attention to (either reference installation manual or leave supplied coax alone and coil as required). I'm amazed at your experience because it's so different from mine. I've been using GPS since the very beginning (racing gliders adopted it day one because it circumvented some competitive rules regarding on board navigation). Equipped my Maule with a certified Garmin 300XL (crude by 430 standards), got my rating, and logged plenty of actual behind it. Still have a 396 in the Maule which was a signicant upgrade to the 300XL panel. All of the above has performed flawlessly from day 1. The 300XL was professionally installed. The rest of it was pretty ad hoc. I'm looking forward to limiting my ground based NAV to proficiency work in an almost flying RV10. You are really going to like your setup once you get it working reliably. Bill Jeffrey Bougher wrote: > Wow, thanks for all the comments and suggestions ... I had to get a > notepad out to write them all down. I think I have answers to most > questions. To troubleshoot, two suggestions that I'm definitely going > to follow are: > 1) Move the 396 antenna further from 430 antenna - I'll stick in > armpit pocket in back seat - nothing but think fiberglass and some > fabric between it and sky. > 2) Next time it occurs, try changing radio frequencies one by one, I > will include transponder. If this doesn't work, try killing each > radio sequentially to see if that helps. > 3) If above doesn't work, kill all electric and see if 396 picks up > satellites. > > Now, to answer a few questions and see if this brings more light to > the problem: > * When I had 430W upgrade, I got new antenna. The puck mount is a > smidge different so I need to modify mount on plane. Avionics shop > said 430 would work fine with old antenna, but it wouldn't be a 430W. > * The 430 antenna is mounted directly under the front access panel. > It is probably within 1 foot of battery and ELT antenna. The 396 > antenna is a Garmin remote antenna and sits on the glare shield - > maybe 2 feet horizontally from the 430 antenna. > * The 430 antenna has a pretty straight shot directly to radio. Cable > was fabricated by avionics shop. It was replaced about 5 years ago > when I had complete GPS failure due to bad wire ... mode this time is > different (intermittent). The 396 antenna is also 5 years old, but in > a little worse shape since it is not mounted and gets handled much > more. The > * The 396 antenna sits immediately next to the XM antenna on the glare > shield. Both are routes somewhat haphazardly around the edge of the > glareshield. I would say they are trapped between edge of glareshield > and sidewall, but they are not pinched. The 396 cable has never been > modified > > Final note, my experience means that I don't really trust GPS. I've > stayed pretty good at flying VORs and always have 2 flight plans on my > knee board - direct and VOR. Fortunately, I have a DME which makes > VOR flying much easier. Unfortunately I don't have an RNAV like I > used to have in my Cessna. I LOVED the RNAV and was going to put one > in my Velocity, but had several people tell me they were maintenance > nightmares. So far, the 430 has been the most troublesome part of my > aircraft ownership experience. When it works it is all sugar and > sunshine, when it goes out, it back to the VORs. > > On 8/24/2010 6:54 AM, Jeffrey Bougher wrote: >> I fly a purchased Velocity. I'm about 1/3 through Bob's book and >> generally not good with electrical issues - hence the book. What I >> have learned is that there is a lot of knowledge on this board. >> >> I have the following problem. On the ground, panel mounted Garmin >> 430 and portable Garmin 396 work fine. Take-off and fly for 20-45 >> minutes and I lose GPS signal on both almost simultaneously. >> Sometimes I get GPS signal back, sometimes I don't. Sometimes when I >> get GPS signal back it is intermittent. When I look at the 396 GPS >> page, it doesn't show ANY signal on ANY satellite. Sometime around >> touchdown I get GPS back ... I'm not really looking until taxiway, so >> don't know when, but ON the ground GPS seems to always be able to >> acquire. >> >> Two recent sample flights. >> Depart both GPSs working, then 40 minutes into flight, both drop GPS >> at about same time. This is a 2:20 flight. After another 30 >> minutes, 430 picks up satellites and maintains through rest of >> flight. The 396 doesn't pick up satellites until back on the ground. >> >> Return flight, both GPSs working on ground. Sometime around 30-40 >> minutes into flight, both drop GPS at about same time. After 1 hour >> - 1:15, the 396 reacquires satellites. The 430 never reacquires >> until back on ground. >> >> Notes: >> * The 396 is new to me. I had borrowed it previously on occasion and >> had similar occurrence twice. This was a few years back and, if I >> recall, both occurrences were an hour or more into flight. >> * The 430 was recently upgraded from 430 to 430W, but I'm still >> flying on the 430 antenna. As stated above, had problem before, but >> it seems MUCH more consistent now. >> * I had flight following on one of these occurrences and asked center >> if there was know problem. Answer was NO and about 3 planes on >> station reported no problems. >> * Both flights above, there was much humidity in the air and I was >> under a lowish cloud deck. I don't recall conditions on previous events. >> * I've tried using 396 plugged into cigarette lighter and running >> only on battery and it makes no difference. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> Thanks, >> Jeff >> >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/23/10 From: kent@cybermesa.com Er ------Original Message------ From: AeroElectric-List Digest Server Sender: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/23/10 Sent: Aug 24, 2010 00:55 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-08-23&Archive=AeroElectric Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 10-08-23&Archive=AeroElectric =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/23/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:46 AM - Avionics Master switch (tomcostanza) 2. 06:40 AM - Re: B&C alt voltage goes right up to 16V (user9253) 3. 07:19 AM - Re: B&C alt voltage goes right up to 16V (user9253) 4. 11:49 AM - testing of backup alternator (Erich_Weaver@urscorp.com) 5. 09:38 PM - Re: Avionics Master switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:38 PM - Re: B&C alt voltage goes right up to 16V (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 09:41 PM - Re: Re: New operations model for the AeroElectric Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:51 PM - Re: Re: B&C alt voltage goes right up to 16V (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 09:56 PM - Re: testing of backup alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:44 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master switch From: "tomcostanza" Before everyone yawns and says, "Not another question about avionics master switches", I'll ask you to indulge me. Suppose I had a "friend", who was paranoid about blowing-up his $10,000 WAAS gps, and $20,000 glass panel, and hadn't read Bob's epistles about fault tolerance specs, etc. But this "friend" didn't want the single point failure of an avionics master switch. Suppose also, that he had a progressive master switch (Off - Batt only/alternator field off - On/alternator field on). Why couldn't this "friend" shut down by turning off the master switch before shutting down the engine? Is this the bugaboo that the non-Aeroelectric crowd fears? ie. Is the sudden collapse of the alternator field the culprit everyone fears, or is it the limbo-like state of the alternator as the engine rpm winds down after pulling the mixture they fear? Would this procedure raise more concerns than it eased? I once had an instructor that shut off the alternator field and looked for a hiccup on the ammeter as part of a pre-takeoff check (avionics on at this point). This was the same instructor that "enlightened" me about the reason for shutting off all avionics before starting and before shutting down the engine. -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309853#309853 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:44 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: B&C alt voltage goes right up to 16V From: "user9253" You confirmed that there is indeed an over-voltage condition. The voltage regulator is not doing its job, for whatever reason. The rain may or may not be a Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:37 PM PST US From: "Dennis & Anne Glaeser" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GRT EIS-Fuel Sender That type of circuit, especially at the low voltage and current levels, is not a spark hazard. There are thousands of planes that have been flying for many years with this type of fuel level sender. Stick 'em in and worry about the cost of the gas you're trying to ignite instead :-) Dennis -------------------------------- From: MHerder Ive installed my senders (resistance type) and routed the 4.7v excitation and the required resistor to the sender Heres my question: How is it safe to route 4.7 volts to a fuel tank with current traveling through the tank? Spark kaboom? Is there something Im missing? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.