AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Thu 09/09/10


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 07:40 AM - Re: Mouser Packaging (jonlaury)
     2. 09:18 AM - Re: warning lamp for LR3C regulators (CORRECTION) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 09:55 AM - Re: LED PWM dimmer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 09:57 AM - Re: King KTR76TSO circuit breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 10:47 AM - Re: King KT76TSO circuit breaker (Mike Welch)
     6. 11:59 AM - strobe power supply wiring issues (Chris Hand)
     7. 12:36 PM - Re: strobe power supply wiring issues (Ralph E. Capen)
     8. 01:51 PM - Re: strobe power supply wiring issues (Ken)
     9. 02:06 PM - Re: King KT76TSO circuit breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 08:42 PM - Re: strobe power supply wiring issues (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 09:13 PM - Flap Motor and Trim Relays for Ray Allen 4-way switch and trim servos (Andy Hawes)
    12. 10:47 PM - Re: strobe power supply wiring issues (Chris Hand)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 07:40:17 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mouser Packaging
    From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
    LOL re the 50' hose on a flatbed semi. Had to show your post to my wife who thinks I'm nuts when I pursue issues of stupidity like this that cost us money. She's of the mind that I'm the only one in the world that gets bent out of shape about stuff like this. Now she knows to beware. There are others! John Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311924#311924


    Message 2


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    Time: 09:18:58 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: warning lamp for LR3C regulators (CORRECTION)
    At 10:00 PM 9/8/2010, you wrote: Bob, I asked the same question at the end of July and the diagram you put out at that time said two 230 ohm resistors for 14 volt. I built the system that way and it works fine. I have not run the engine so I have not seen full voltage yet. Is the righer resistance needed for the higher voltage ? Just wondering and wanting to better understand my electrical system. Thanks. Don I picked the 220 ohm resistors a number of years ago with some notion of "over driving" red leds to get sunlight viewability flashes. Nowadays, there are high- intensity leds that perform better at the rated 30 mA than the older leds peformed at 2x rated current. Hence and adjustment of the resistor values. But if what you have in place is working for you, don't change it. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:55:45 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: LED PWM dimmer
    At 05:24 PM 9/8/2010, you wrote: Are these a noise source? http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=%2Fhobby.htm%23Dimmer In archives there seems to be a preference for mechanical dimmers. "Mechanical"?????? We used to offer a range of linear electronic dimmers. I think Eric's dimmer at: http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm is a compact, linear device that is sure to be noise free. I have a string of 4 LED's for which I could probably find an acceptable range of light by using a rotary switch and 4 different resistors. But it's another project I don't need if a 15 buck dimmer will not cause problems. Give it a try. The risk is low. Then you can report back to us whether or not the dimmer is suited for the purpose you used it. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:57:53 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: King KTR76TSO circuit breaker
    Does anyone know the appropriate circuit breaker for the King KT76 transponder? I'm having trouble finding the right Klixon to grab. It's looks like a 2 amp will do, but I could use a avionics guy's advice. Oh yeah, what about wiring size, too. I was thinking 16 ga. tefzel. 20AWG is plenty big wire and consistent with the largest wire accepted by most avionics tray connectors. 5A breaker is less expensive than a 2A breaker and is also fine. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:47:53 AM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: King KT76TSO circuit breaker
    > 20AWG is plenty big wire and consistent with the > largest wire accepted by most avionics tray connectors. > 5A breaker is less expensive than a 2A breaker and > is also fine. > > > Bob . . . Thanks Bob!! Since I had a little time before your reply=2C I checked with the Honeyw ell site regarding the transponder. What I found was what I needed=2C in a back-doo r sort of way. They said (Honeywell) the made a direct slide-in replacement=2C using the o ld tray and wiring=2C of the KT 76 with the new digital KT 73. A quick check of the specs on the KT 73 says it has a max current draw of 2.5 amps. My thinking is since the 73 is a direct replacement of the 76=2C and the 73 uses a 2.5 amp draw. Regarding the best size=2C I've got (7) each 2A Klixons and a (4) each 5A Klixons. None of the Klixon breakers have a home yet....that's what I'm doing=2C assigning b reakers to their various tasks. I actually have (3) each 3A breakers (plus other amp sizes). If you think a 5 amp would be okay=2C then's just I'll go with that! Plus=2C regarding wiring size=2C I've got a 600' foot roll of 18 ga. twis ted pair tefzel. I don't have any 20 ga AWG on hand. Thanks again=2C Bob Mike Welch


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:59:22 AM PST US
    From: "Chris Hand" <chris_hand@comcast.net>
    Subject: strobe power supply wiring issues
    I've had some problems with my strobe power supply and/or wiring that I haven't quite been able to figure out. Looking to see if any of you have seen something similar or have any advice on next steps. Whelen tech support has been very helpful and is telling me the power supply checks out fine at the factory (ran it on their tester for 2 hrs with no problems) so I believe the issue has to be in the connectors or wiring. Here's the history: Whelen A413A power supply firing strobes in wingtip A600 fixtures. Installed, tested, and worked fine until strobes quit firing at about 50 hrs total flight time (I run the strobes whenever the engine is running, except for on ground at night and I don't fly at night much). I used 18AWG wire for the main power and ground runs, per installation instructions. Power supply is installed on floor just behind baggage compartment of my RV-6A. Wiring length and guage meets requirements for expected current draw. On initial failure at approx 50 hrs, I found the ground return wire for main power plug to power supply to have overheated, melting the wire and connector where my aircraft wiring met the factory harness pigtail (see attached photos with "50hrs" in file name). >From the looks of the overheated connector for ground return wire, I assumed I had inadvertently cut wire strands when stripping insulation for connector installation, leaving not enough wire guage to carry the expected 7A current, thus overheated the connector. So I removed the damaged wire, replaced connector with same style (being very careful not to damage wire strands and to get a good crimp), and tested strobes with no issues. Everything worked fine until strobes quit firing again at about 150 hrs total time (approx 100 hrs since first issue). On inspection after the second failure, I found the same connector/crimp to have visible heat damage but not to the extent of melting to an open like I had the first time. The resistance across this heat damaged connector was about 0.8 ohms, but not open (measured after cutting wires on either side of the connector without disconnecting the spade terminals). See attached pictures with "150hrs" in file name for what it looked like this second time around. I installed a pin/socket style AMP connector for the power and ground vice the PIDG style connector, verified I had 12V power at the pin going into the power supply, and verified the ground wire pin had continuity to airframe ground (the ground return wire is connected to firewall common ground point and appears good). But when plugged into the strobe power supply, the power supply wouldn't fire the strobes - no charge/discharge noise and no strobe lights. Based on the above, I assumed the power supply must be bad and sent it to Whelen factory repair after calling them. They said the power supply checks out good and the connectors on the power supply look good. They are sending it back to me with a new main power connector harness. So, I'll reinstall when I get it back and see if I can get it to work, but I'm still at a loss as to what went wrong with the two failures and why it wouldn't work when I tried the AMP style connector. I thought about trying to just ground the power supply locally, but the installation instructions state not to do this and I don't want to make a change that may result in strobe noise in my avionics systems. My current installation (when strobes are working) doesn't have any strobe noise in any of my audio/avionics systems. Grounding locally also wouldn't resolve root cause on this since the ground return and connector should have been able to handle the expected current load. Some other pictures of power supply wiring runs and installation are at: http://rv6aproject.ckhand.com/panelAndElectrical/electrical/electricalPg6.htm and 3rd picture down on this page: http://rv6aproject.ckhand.com/panelAndElectrical/electrical/electricalPg8.htm#photo3 Any ideas, or something I might be missing? Thanks, ChrisRV-6A, N731CK


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:36:25 PM PST US
    From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: strobe power supply wiring issues
    These appear to be localized to the crimp area. You could try solder type quick disconnects with heat-shrink tubing as the insulator to see if that truly is the issue. -----Original Message----- >From: Chris Hand <chris_hand@comcast.net> >Sent: Sep 9, 2010 2:51 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: strobe power supply wiring issues > >I've had some problems with my strobe power supply and/or wiring that I >haven't quite been able to figure out. Looking to see if any of you have >seen something similar or have any advice on next steps. Whelen tech > support has been very helpful and is telling me the power supply checks out >fine at the factory (ran it on their tester for 2 hrs with no problems) so I >believe the issue has to be in the connectors or wiring. > >Here's the history: > >Whelen A413A power supply firing strobes in wingtip A600 fixtures. >Installed, tested, and worked fine until strobes quit firing at about 50 hrs >total flight time (I run the strobes whenever the engine is running, except >for on ground at night and I don't fly at night much). I used 18AWG wire >for the main power and ground runs, per installation instructions. Power >supply is installed on floor just behind baggage compartment of my RV-6A. >Wiring length and guage meets requirements for expected current draw. > >On initial failure at approx 50 hrs, I found the ground return wire for main >power plug to power supply to have overheated, melting the wire and >connector where my aircraft wiring met the factory harness pigtail (see >attached photos with "50hrs" in file name). > >>From the looks of the overheated connector for ground return wire, I assumed >I had inadvertently cut wire strands when stripping insulation for connector >installation, leaving not enough wire guage to carry the expected 7A > current, thus overheated the connector. So I removed the damaged wire, >replaced connector with same style (being very careful not to damage wire >strands and to get a good crimp), and tested strobes with no issues. > > Everything worked fine until strobes quit firing again at about 150 hrs >total time (approx 100 hrs since first issue). > > On inspection after the second failure, I found the same connector/crimp to >have visible heat damage but not to the extent of melting to an open like I >had the first time. The resistance across this heat damaged connector was > about 0.8 ohms, but not open (measured after cutting wires on either side >of the connector without disconnecting the spade terminals). See attached >pictures with "150hrs" in file name for what it looked like this second time > around. > > I installed a pin/socket style AMP connector for the power and ground vice >the PIDG style connector, verified I had 12V power at the pin going into the >power supply, and verified the ground wire pin had continuity to airframe >ground (the ground return wire is connected to firewall common ground point >and appears good). But when plugged into the strobe power supply, the power >supply wouldn't fire the strobes - no charge/discharge noise and no strobe >lights. > > Based on the above, I assumed the power supply must be bad and sent it to >Whelen factory repair after calling them. They said the power supply checks >out good and the connectors on the power supply look good. They are sending >it back to me with a new main power connector harness. >So, I'll reinstall when I get it back and see if I can get it to work, but >I'm still at a loss as to what went wrong with the two failures and why it >wouldn't work when I tried the AMP style connector. > > I thought about trying to just ground the power supply locally, but the >installation instructions state not to do this and I don't want to make a >change that may result in strobe noise in my avionics systems. My current >installation (when strobes are working) doesn't have any strobe noise in any >of my audio/avionics systems. Grounding locally also wouldn't resolve root >cause on this since the ground return and connector should have been able to >handle the expected current load. > > Some other pictures of power supply wiring runs and installation are at: > http://rv6aproject.ckhand.com/panelAndElectrical/electrical/electricalPg6.htm and 3rd picture down on this page: http://rv6aproject.ckhand.com/panelAndElectrical/electrical/electricalPg8.htm#photo3 Any ideas, or something I might be missing? Thanks, ChrisRV-6A, N731CK


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:51:53 PM PST US
    From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: strobe power supply wiring issues
    Yes I would measure the voltage on the power supply side of the connector with everything turned on. ie verify that the power supply is actually being powered and that the voltage stays at nominally 12 volts while the power supply is trying to draw current. 12 volts under no load is quite possible with a bad high resistance connection anywhere in the circuit - but the voltage may be falling under load. Ken Ralph E. Capen wrote: > > These appear to be localized to the crimp area. > > You could try solder type quick disconnects with heat-shrink tubing as the insulator to see if that truly is the issue. > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Hand <chris_hand@comcast.net> >> Sent: Sep 9, 2010 2:51 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: strobe power supply wiring issues >> >> I've had some problems with my strobe power supply and/or wiring that I >> haven't quite been able to figure out. Looking to see if any of you have >> seen something similar or have any advice on next steps. Whelen tech >> support has been very helpful and is telling me the power supply checks out >> fine at the factory (ran it on their tester for 2 hrs with no problems) so I >> believe the issue has to be in the connectors or wiring. >> >> Here's the history: >> >> Whelen A413A power supply firing strobes in wingtip A600 fixtures. >> Installed, tested, and worked fine until strobes quit firing at about 50 hrs >> total flight time (I run the strobes whenever the engine is running, except >> for on ground at night and I don't fly at night much). I used 18AWG wire >> for the main power and ground runs, per installation instructions. Power >> supply is installed on floor just behind baggage compartment of my RV-6A. >> Wiring length and guage meets requirements for expected current draw. >> >> On initial failure at approx 50 hrs, I found the ground return wire for main >> power plug to power supply to have overheated, melting the wire and >> connector where my aircraft wiring met the factory harness pigtail (see >> attached photos with "50hrs" in file name). >> >> >From the looks of the overheated connector for ground return wire, I assumed >> I had inadvertently cut wire strands when stripping insulation for connector >> installation, leaving not enough wire guage to carry the expected 7A >> current, thus overheated the connector. So I removed the damaged wire, >> replaced connector with same style (being very careful not to damage wire >> strands and to get a good crimp), and tested strobes with no issues. >> >> Everything worked fine until strobes quit firing again at about 150 hrs >> total time (approx 100 hrs since first issue). >> >> On inspection after the second failure, I found the same connector/crimp to >> have visible heat damage but not to the extent of melting to an open like I >> had the first time. The resistance across this heat damaged connector was >> about 0.8 ohms, but not open (measured after cutting wires on either side >> of the connector without disconnecting the spade terminals). See attached >> pictures with "150hrs" in file name for what it looked like this second time >> around. >> >> I installed a pin/socket style AMP connector for the power and ground vice >> the PIDG style connector, verified I had 12V power at the pin going into the >> power supply, and verified the ground wire pin had continuity to airframe >> ground (the ground return wire is connected to firewall common ground point >> and appears good). But when plugged into the strobe power supply, the power >> supply wouldn't fire the strobes - no charge/discharge noise and no strobe >> lights. >> >> Based on the above, I assumed the power supply must be bad and sent it to >> Whelen factory repair after calling them. They said the power supply checks >> out good and the connectors on the power supply look good. They are sending >> it back to me with a new main power connector harness. >> So, I'll reinstall when I get it back and see if I can get it to work, but >> I'm still at a loss as to what went wrong with the two failures and why it >> wouldn't work when I tried the AMP style connector. >> >> I thought about trying to just ground the power supply locally, but the >> installation instructions state not to do this and I don't want to make a >> change that may result in strobe noise in my avionics systems. My current >> installation (when strobes are working) doesn't have any strobe noise in any >> of my audio/avionics systems. Grounding locally also wouldn't resolve root >> cause on this since the ground return and connector should have been able to >> handle the expected current load. >> >> Some other pictures of power supply wiring runs and installation are at: >> http://rv6aproject.ckhand.com/panelAndElectrical/electrical/electricalPg6.htm and 3rd picture down on this page: http://rv6aproject.ckhand.com/panelAndElectrical/electrical/electricalPg8.htm#photo3 Any ideas, or something I might be missing? Thanks, ChrisRV-6A, N731CK > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:06:51 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: King KT76TSO circuit breaker
    > > If you think a 5 amp would be okay, then's just I'll go with that! > > Plus, regarding wiring size, I've got a 600' foot roll of 18 ga. > twisted pair tefzel. I don't have >any 20 ga AWG on hand. If you're putting new pins on the wires, 18AWG will crimp only into larger of the two pins shown on this data sheet. http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/Molex_Waldom/Molex_4338_Pins.pdf Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:42:02 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: strobe power supply wiring issues
    At 02:25 PM 9/9/2010, you wrote: ><recapen@earthlink.net> > >These appear to be localized to the crimp area. > >You could try solder type quick disconnects with heat-shrink tubing >as the insulator to see if that truly is the issue. Agreed. Without having the carcasses to conduct detailed autopsies, the best guess is these are (1) non-PIDG terminals (obvious) installed with (2)a tool that failed to produce a gas-tight junction between wire and terminal. An alternative or even a concurrent condition may be that the interface between male tabe and female fast-ons are weak. Poor alloy selection in the fabrication of the terminal could contribute to both failings. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/faston3.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:13:24 PM PST US
    Subject: Flap Motor and Trim Relays for Ray Allen 4-way switch
    and trim servos
    From: Andy Hawes <andy717@comcast.net>
    Hello Gentlemen, Just signed onto the aeroelectric list group. Hello! I am in the initial stages of working on my instrument panel and breaker panel and have come upon my first technical challenge, as well as many more to come I'm sure. Please excuse my lack of knowledge and experience with electrons -- and a quick thank you to Bob and all contributors to the fantastic AeroElectric book and community -- I would like to actuate my flap system (building a Radial Rocket, Nashville, TN) via some type of hat switch. It looks like Ray Allen provides something (part number ROS-4) that would do the trick. They also provide a relay board that would be able to handle the STSP to DTDP conversion? Also have a voltage issue, as my system is 28V. The flap motor is rated at 24V to possibly as much as 8 amps which knocks the Ray Allen relay board out. What I "think" I need is one relay board per flap action (up and down) that can handle an 8amp draw from the motor, the small 11 mA ground signal from the 4-Way hat switch and the 28V system. Is this correct? I have no background in this but plenty of time to learn. Just looking for some experienced hands here that can perhaps provide a schematic for the following devices (again, devices that I "think" I need to make the following work safely): Ray Allen ROS-4 -- Two 4-way hat switches -- one per hand grip: throttle: rudder trim on one axis, flaps on another flight stick: aileron on one axis, elevator on other Ray Allen REG-1 -- 12V Voltage Regulator (2, one per hat switch?) Ray Allen REL-2 -- Relay board (3, one for aileron trim servo, one for elevator servo, and one for rudder servo) Ray Allen POS-12 -- flap position sensor for max 1.2 inches of travel One, unknown Relay Board that will handle the above flap system. ?? Flap Motor: 24VDC, 3A No load, 8A up to 500 lbs, Motion Systems Corp model #85151, part number 73485, Motor # PE2433R Quite a lengthy hello to the group I know so thank you for any attention or advice you can provide. Andy


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:47:34 PM PST US
    From: "Chris Hand" <chris_hand@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: strobe power supply wiring issues
    Thanks Bob, I'll try a different connector type when I get the power supply back from Whelen. I do still have the second carcass (the less damaged one from 150 hr point) and it's possible I might have the original melted one if I didn't lose or toss it when I moved my plane and hangar contents to a different airport a few months back (E16 to KRHV move in San Jose, CA area). I didn't cut the crimp area to look at cross-section but the fast-on tabs looked normal and the grip strength was good when I seperated the male and female sides after checking resistance across the connector. I'd be happy to send you the carcass I have, or both if I can find the first one, if you're interested in examining the crimps and connector. The crimp tool I used was a ratcheting AMP ProCrimper I bought from Chief Aircraft prior to starting the electrical system. I used it throughout construction and have had no problems with any other connectors. Most of my other crimp tools (pin & socket, and D-sub crimp tool) I bought from B&C or SteinAir so I've got high confidence in the tools used, and I used your crimping and other articles pretty extensively as references during my build. I bought most of my fast-on connectors from sources like B&C or Stein, but towards the end of the electrical system construction (i.e. around when I was putting the lighting systems in) I bought some connectors from places like Home Depot and Fry's, so not sure which ones are on the ground wire I've had problems with but that could be the issue. Since the second connector that burned was installed well after my plane started flying, I'm pretty sure it's of the Home Depot / Fry's pedigree. Prior to starting the electrical system part of my project, I bought and read your book and read many/most of your articles, including the ones you linked below, before and during construction (many thanks for your contributions and assistance to our community!). I also had a pretty firm electrical theory and practical experience foundation as a prior Navy nuclear power field Electrician's Mate before reading your material. My error may have been the Home Depot / Fry's connector source but I haven't seen anything obvious on these two particular crimps/connectors that would lead me to believe they shouldn't have been able to handle the expected 7A load. Assuming Whelen is correct that the power supply is operating properly then clearly in both the 50 hr and 150 hr failure, that one single crimp was inadequate, at least over time, resulting in significant overheating. I just don't understand why yet. I'll let you know when I get it hooked up and tested again. I appreciate your feedback. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 8:37 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: strobe power supply wiring issues At 02:25 PM 9/9/2010, you wrote: <recapen@earthlink.net> These appear to be localized to the crimp area. You could try solder type quick disconnects with heat-shrink tubing as the insulator to see if that truly is the issue. Agreed. Without having the carcasses to conduct detailed autopsies, the best guess is these are (1) non-PIDG terminals (obvious) installed with (2)a tool that failed to produce a gas-tight junction between wire and terminal. An alternative or even a concurrent condition may be that the interface between male tabe and female fast-ons are weak. Poor alloy selection in the fabrication of the terminal could contribute to both failings. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/faston3.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf Bob . . .




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