AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 10/22/10


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:55 AM - EGT Problem (frank3phyl@comcast.net)
     2. 08:01 AM - Re: EGT Problem ()
     3. 08:24 AM - Re: EGT Problem (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     4. 08:25 AM - Re: Voltage Regulator Sense Wire Location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: AUX Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 09:15 AM - Re: Voltage Regulator Sense Wire Location (Rick Titsworth)
     7. 09:25 AM - Rotax 912s wiring (Dan Billingsley)
     8. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: AUX Battery (tim2542@sbcglobal.net)
     9. 02:50 PM - Re: Voltage Regulator Sense Wire Location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: AUX Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 02:54 PM - Re: Rotax 912s wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    12. 04:11 PM - Re: Re: AUX Battery (tim2542@sbcglobal.net)
    13. 05:17 PM - Re: Rotax 912s wiring (Dan Billingsley)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:55:25 AM PST US
    From: frank3phyl@comcast.net
    Subject: EGT Problem
    I have a ROTAX 912S with GRT EIS model 2000. #3 EGT reading suddenly became erratic--going from very low reading to normal with all sorts of readings in between within a second or two. Now I'm getting a steady 25 degree C reading. Fastening to exhaust is secure & haven't checked other connections, yet. Question: what happens when the EGT thermocouple goes bad? Is this likely my problem or more likely a loose connection in wiring? Other three EGT readings are good. Thanks Frank


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:01:14 AM PST US
    Subject: EGT Problem
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    RnJhbmssDQogDQpUaGlzIGhhcHBlbmVkIHRvIG1lIHJlY2VudGx5IHdoZW4gSSB3YXMgaW4gdGhl cmUgZml4aW5nIHNvbWV0aGluZyB1bnJlbGF0ZWQgYW5kIHNpbXBseSBiZW50IHRoZSB3aXJlIGJh Y2suIEkgZ290IGFsbCBraW5kcyBvZiB3YWNreSByZWFkaW5ncy4gQSBzaW1wbGUgZGlzdHVyYmFu Y2UgbGlrZSBiZW5kaW5nIHRoZSB3aXJlIGNhbiBhZmZlY3QgdGhlIHJlYWRpbmcgZHJhbWF0aWNh bGx5LiBUaGV5IGRvbuKAmXQgZ28gYmFkIHRoYXQgZWFzaWx5Lg0KIA0KR2xlbm4gRS4gTG9uZw0K IA0KRnJvbTogb3duZXItYWVyb2VsZWN0cmljLWxpc3Qtc2VydmVyQG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20gW21h aWx0bzpvd25lci1hZXJvZWxlY3RyaWMtbGlzdC1zZXJ2ZXJAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbV0gT24gQmVo YWxmIE9mIGZyYW5rM3BoeWxAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQNClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgT2N0b2JlciAyMiwg MjAxMCA5OjUxIEFNDQpUbzogYWVyb2VsZWN0cmljLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KU3ViamVj dDogQWVyb0VsZWN0cmljLUxpc3Q6IEVHVCBQcm9ibGVtDQogDQpJIGhhdmUgYSBST1RBWCA5MTJT IHdpdGggR1JUIEVJUyBtb2RlbCAyMDAwLiAgIzMgRUdUIHJlYWRpbmcgc3VkZGVubHkgYmVjYW1l IGVycmF0aWMtLWdvaW5nIGZyb20gdmVyeSBsb3cgcmVhZGluZyB0byBub3JtYWwgd2l0aCBhbGwg c29ydHMgb2YgcmVhZGluZ3MgaW4gYmV0d2VlbiB3aXRoaW4gYSBzZWNvbmQgb3IgdHdvLiAgTm93 IEknbSBnZXR0aW5nIGEgc3RlYWR5IDI1IGRlZ3JlZSBDIHJlYWRpbmcuICBGYXN0ZW5pbmcgdG8g ZXhoYXVzdCBpcyBzZWN1cmUgJiBoYXZlbid0IGNoZWNrZWQgb3RoZXIgY29ubmVjdGlvbnMsIHll dC4gIFF1ZXN0aW9uOiAgd2hhdCBoYXBwZW5zIHdoZW4gdGhlIEVHVCB0aGVybW9jb3VwbGUgZ29l cyBiYWQ/ICBJcyB0aGlzIGxpa2VseSBteSBwcm9ibGVtIG9yIG1vcmUgbGlrZWx5IGEgbG9vc2Ug Y29ubmVjdGlvbiBpbiB3aXJpbmc/ICBPdGhlciB0aHJlZSBFR1QgcmVhZGluZ3MgYXJlIGdvb2Qu DQpUaGFua3MNCkZyYW5rDQogDQogDQpfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgIC0gVGhlIEFlcm9FbGVj dHJpYy1MaXN0IEVtYWlsIEZvcnVtIC0NCl8tPSBVc2UgdGhlIE1hdHJvbmljcyBMaXN0IEZlYXR1 cmVzIE5hdmlnYXRvciB0byBicm93c2UNCl8tPSB0aGUgbWFueSBMaXN0IHV0aWxpdGllcyBzdWNo IGFzIExpc3QgVW4vU3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uLA0KXy09IEFyY2hpdmUgU2VhcmNoICYgRG93bmxvYWQs IDctRGF5IEJyb3dzZSwgQ2hhdCwgRkFRLA0KXy09IFBob3Rvc2hhcmUsIGFuZCBtdWNoIG11Y2gg bW9yZToNCl8tPQ0KXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9OYXZpZ2F0b3I/ QWVyb0VsZWN0cmljLUxpc3QNCl8tPQ0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCl8tPSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0gTUFUUk9O SUNTIFdFQiBGT1JVTVMgLQ0KXy09IFNhbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udGVudCBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2 aWEgdGhlIFdlYiBGb3J1bXMhDQpfLT0NCl8tPSAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vZm9ydW1zLm1hdHJvbmlj cy5jb20NCl8tPQ0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCl8tPSAgICAgICAgICAgICAtIExpc3QgQ29udHJpYnV0aW9uIFdl YiBTaXRlIC0NCl8tPSAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGdlbmVyb3VzIHN1cHBvcnQhDQpfLT0g ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3QgQWRtaW4uDQpf LT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2NvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbg0KXy09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCiAN Cg=


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:24:56 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: EGT Problem
    Good Morning Frank and Glenn, The most common problem with probe reading is because the wires to the probe are loose. You are supposed to place the toothed washer between the two ring terminals, not under the nut or screw, and it must be tightened thoroughly. I would check that fastener for proper application and maybe install a new washer just in case. The current flowing through that connection is very small and it needs to be clean and tight. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 10/22/2010 10:02:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time, longg@pjm.com writes: Frank, This happened to me recently when I was in there fixing something unrelated and simply bent the wire back. I got all kinds of wacky reading s. A simple disturbance like bending the wire can affect the reading dramatica lly. They don=99t go bad that easily. Glenn E. Long From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of frank3 phyl@comcast.net Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 9:51 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EGT Problem I have a ROTAX 912S with GRT EIS model 2000. #3 EGT reading suddenly became erratic--going from very low reading to normal with all sorts of readings in between within a second or two. Now I'm getting a steady 25 degree C reading. Fastening to exhaust is secure & haven't checked other connections, yet. Question: what happens when the EGT thermocouple goes bad? Is this likely my problem or more likely a loose connection in wiring? Othe r three EGT readings are good. Thanks Frank ======================== =========== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) ======================== =========== ======================== =========== (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ===========


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:25:06 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Voltage Regulator Sense Wire Location
    At 09:03 PM 10/21/2010, you wrote: <rtitsworth2@mindspring.com> Bob, I'm building a 28v Z-14 type dual-battery/dual-bus system with the voltage regulators on the inside of the firewall and both 24v batteries in the tail (for weight/balance considerations). What kind of airplane are you building? I have 1 LR3C regulator paired with the std Kelly alternator and 1 LS1A regulator paired with a SD-20 alternator. I'm curious, where is the "ideal" location to connect the voltage sense wire (regulator terminal #3) to: a) Routed back to the battery contactors (i.e. near the batteries) b) Anywhere on the power bus(es) near the voltage regulators (i.e. inside of the firewall power bus stud) c) Through the firewall to the alternator d) Doesn't really matter (option B for convenience) The prefered v-sense points are as shown on Z-14 . . . or per manufacturer's instructions. I'm assuming I should also set-up/adjust the regulator/alternator output by measuring the voltage back by the batteries. No, the voltage regulator "knows" what the voltage is at its sense terminal. It can make no accurate assumptions otherwise. Having said that, voltage drops are, by system configuration, tolerably insignificant. Fitting the LR/LS series regulators with sense leads isolated from the field current supply lead went to the idea of making voltage drops elsewhere still more insignificant. Recommend you wire per suggested diagrams and adjust regulator as necessary to achieve 28.5 to 29.2 volts at the bus. Bob . . . Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:14:56 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: AUX Battery
    At 09:07 AM 10/21/2010, you wrote: > > > > Is there any reason to use a resistor in this configuration? > >No, I see no reason to use a resistor. If someone else used a >resistor, they should be able to explain why. Just because some >other builder wired their plane wrong is no reason to do it the same >way. There have been arguments on this forum about what type of >diode to use to minimize voltage drop. Using a resistor does not >minimize voltage drop. > If there is a reason for using a resistor, it would be > interesting to know how and why it was used. An excellent point. A series resistor in a small battery charging circuit is indicated for one purpose only and under a narrow set of circumstances. If the small battery is at risk for ever becoming totally discharged one might improve on battery performance by limiting the magnitude of recharge current when the system comes back up at normal voltages. The batteries I used in the recovery parachute controllers for HBC http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Recovery_Parachute_Controller.jpg were 1.2 a.h. devices intended to be charged by and as back-up for ship's power. If ship's power was brought on with completely discharged batteries, the inrush to the little batteries would not be conducive to a long service lift. Hence, the charge loop included a 3 ohm resistor that would limit initial current flows to about 8 amps. This also prevented the initial recharge current to a dead battery from popping the 10A breaker on the ship's bus. Of course, this would mean that getting the batteries fully recharged would take longer. It also means that the charging loop could not be depended upon for power to run the system. That task was covered by a separate circuit. The decision for including such resistors depends on an assessment (and preventative maintenance program) for circumstances that might totally discharge the battery . . . and what you would do about it if such an event were discovered. I built a battery maintainer into the parachute controller intended to be plugged into AC mains for a minimum of two hours within the week prior to a flight where the parachute was to be armed. Further, preflight testing by ground crews before launch included a load test of the batteries. Hence, probability of the resistor ever being functionality tasked was very low. Joe's assessment is quite correct that inclusion of a resistor in the charge path of a battery demands a full understanding of it's purpose and the effect on system functionality under all anticipated conditions. 99% of the time, you don't need them. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:15:28 AM PST US
    From: "Rick Titsworth" <rtitsworth2@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Voltage Regulator Sense Wire Location
    Bob Thanks, Answers FYI... Lancair ES-Turbo (in the Detroit area) B&C circuit diagram shows sense wire(s) going to the breaker panel/bus, which I can easily do, but that's 14 feet from the batteries via #2AWG (apparently not a big deal). Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 11:25 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage Regulator Sense Wire Location <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> At 09:03 PM 10/21/2010, you wrote: <rtitsworth2@mindspring.com> Bob, I'm building a 28v Z-14 type dual-battery/dual-bus system with the voltage regulators on the inside of the firewall and both 24v batteries in the tail (for weight/balance considerations). What kind of airplane are you building? I have 1 LR3C regulator paired with the std Kelly alternator and 1 LS1A regulator paired with a SD-20 alternator. I'm curious, where is the "ideal" location to connect the voltage sense wire (regulator terminal #3) to: a) Routed back to the battery contactors (i.e. near the batteries) b) Anywhere on the power bus(es) near the voltage regulators (i.e. inside of the firewall power bus stud) c) Through the firewall to the alternator d) Doesn't really matter (option B for convenience) The prefered v-sense points are as shown on Z-14 . . . or per manufacturer's instructions. I'm assuming I should also set-up/adjust the regulator/alternator output by measuring the voltage back by the batteries. No, the voltage regulator "knows" what the voltage is at its sense terminal. It can make no accurate assumptions otherwise. Having said that, voltage drops are, by system configuration, tolerably insignificant. Fitting the LR/LS series regulators with sense leads isolated from the field current supply lead went to the idea of making voltage drops elsewhere still more insignificant. Recommend you wire per suggested diagrams and adjust regulator as necessary to achieve 28.5 to 29.2 volts at the bus. Bob . . . Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:25:38 AM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Rotax 912s wiring
    Good Morning, I am currently trying to determine what wiring scheme to use for my Kitfox IV / Rotax 912S. Kitfox has a simple schematic, however, I also went through an Aeroelectric workshop and got a book. I am looking at the schematic in the back of the book labeled Figure Z-16 (this was about 5 years ago). I like the plan of using an essential buss so I would like to include it...I also want to use the crowbar OV module. I have ordered one from Bob. My Questions: 1. Do I need to use the Alternator OV Disconnect Relay in conjunction with the OV module? If so, I cannot find it on your website. 2. I am using a Grand Rapids EIS (engine Monitor) and it has a low voltage allert so, would I be duplicating my needs by getting a low voltage monitor module? Thanks for your help, Dan B


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:52:17 AM PST US
    From: tim2542@sbcglobal.net
    Subject: Re: AUX Battery
    Thanks Bob, Joe. The idea as I understood it was in regard to limiting the charge current just as you surmised. The Diode I'm using is a 9amp wire diode. I'll install it using your homeless components methods from the site, no resistor. Thanks,Tim Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2010, at 9:13 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > At 09:07 AM 10/21/2010, you wrote: >> >> >> > Is there any reason to use a resistor in this configuration? >> >> No, I see no reason to use a resistor. If someone else used a resistor, they should be able to explain why. Just because some other builder wired their plane wrong is no reason to do it the same way. There have been arguments on this forum about what type of diode to use to minimize voltage drop. Using a resistor does not minimize voltage drop. >> If there is a reason for using a resistor, it would be interesting to know how and why it was used. > > An excellent point. A series resistor > in a small battery charging circuit is > indicated for one purpose only and under > a narrow set of circumstances. > > If the small battery is at risk for > ever becoming totally discharged one might > improve on battery performance by limiting > the magnitude of recharge current when the > system comes back up at normal voltages. > The batteries I used in the recovery parachute > controllers for HBC > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Recovery_Parachute_Controller.jpg > > were 1.2 a.h. devices intended to be charged by and > as back-up for ship's power. If ship's power was > brought on with completely discharged batteries, > the inrush to the little batteries would not be > conducive to a long service lift. Hence, the charge > loop included a 3 ohm resistor that would limit > initial current flows to about 8 amps. This also > prevented the initial recharge current to a dead > battery from popping the 10A breaker on the ship's > bus. > > Of course, this would mean that getting the batteries > fully recharged would take longer. It also means that > the charging loop could not be depended upon for > power to run the system. That task was covered by > a separate circuit. > > The decision for including such resistors depends > on an assessment (and preventative maintenance > program) for circumstances that might totally > discharge the battery . . . and what you would > do about it if such an event were discovered. > > I built a battery maintainer into the parachute > controller intended to be plugged into AC mains > for a minimum of two hours within the week prior > to a flight where the parachute was to be armed. > > Further, preflight testing by ground > crews before launch included a load test of the > batteries. Hence, probability of the resistor ever > being functionality tasked was very low. > > Joe's assessment is quite correct that inclusion > of a resistor in the charge path of a battery demands > a full understanding of it's purpose and the effect > on system functionality under all anticipated > conditions. 99% of the time, you don't need them. > > > Bob . . . > > > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:50:27 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Voltage Regulator Sense Wire Location
    > >B&C circuit diagram shows sense wire(s) going to the breaker >panel/bus, which I can easily do, but that's 14 feet from the >batteries via #2AWG (apparently not a big deal). Correct Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:50:29 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: AUX Battery
    At 11:49 AM 10/22/2010, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob, Joe. The idea as I understood it was in regard to >limiting the charge current just as you surmised. >The Diode I'm using is a 9amp wire diode. I'll install it using your >homeless components methods from the site, no resistor. What's the capacity of your aux battery? Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 02:54:34 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Rotax 912s wiring
    At 11:16 AM 10/22/2010, you wrote: ><dan@azshowersolutions.com> > >Good Morning, >I am currently trying to determine what wiring scheme to use for my >Kitfox IV / >Rotax 912S. Kitfox has a simple schematic, however, I also went through an >Aeroelectric workshop and got a book. I am looking at the schematic >in the back >of the book labeled Figure Z-16 (this was about 5 years ago). You can keep your book updated for no extra charge from website downloads at Http://aeroelectric.com this is especially true of the Z-figures which can be acquired individually at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ > I like the plan >of using an essential buss so I would like to include it...I also want to use >the crowbar OV module. I have ordered one from Bob. My Questions: >1. Do I need to use the Alternator OV Disconnect Relay in >conjunction with the >OV module? If so, I cannot find it on your website. The relay is necessary. You can get the 704 from http://bandc.biz. This part from RadioShack is also suitable http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62477 >2. I am using a Grand Rapids EIS (engine Monitor) and it has a low voltage >allert so, would I be duplicating my needs by getting a low voltage monitor >module? Yes. You don't need two . . . Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 04:11:53 PM PST US
    From: tim2542@sbcglobal.net
    Subject: Re: AUX Battery
    7ah Tim Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2010, at 2:48 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > At 11:49 AM 10/22/2010, you wrote: >> >> Thanks Bob, Joe. The idea as I understood it was in regard to limiting the charge current just as you surmised. >> The Diode I'm using is a 9amp wire diode. I'll install it using your homeless components methods from the site, no resistor. > > What's the capacity of your aux battery? > > > Bob . . . > > > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 05:17:35 PM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: Rotax 912s wiring
    Thanks Bob, Just what I needed! Dan ----- Original Message ---- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 2:52:46 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912s wiring <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> At 11:16 AM 10/22/2010, you wrote: ><dan@azshowersolutions.com> > > Good Morning, > I am currently trying to determine what wiring scheme to use for my Kitfox IV / > Rotax 912S. Kitfox has a simple schematic, however, I also went through an > Aeroelectric workshop and got a book. I am looking at the schematic in the back > of the book labeled Figure Z-16 (this was about 5 years ago). You can keep your book updated for no extra charge from website downloads at Http://aeroelectric.com this is especially true of the Z-figures which can be acquired individually at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ > I like the plan > of using an essential buss so I would like to include it...I also want to use > the crowbar OV module. I have ordered one from Bob. My Questions: > 1. Do I need to use the Alternator OV Disconnect Relay in conjunction with the > OV module? If so, I cannot find it on your website. The relay is necessary. You can get the 704 from http://bandc.biz. This part from RadioShack is also suitable http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62477 > 2. I am using a Grand Rapids EIS (engine Monitor) and it has a low voltage > allert so, would I be duplicating my needs by getting a low voltage monitor > module? Yes. You don't need two . . . Bob . . .




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