AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 11/16/10


Total Messages Posted: 24



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:46 AM - Pondering (Dan Billingsley)
     2. 07:13 AM - Re: Pondering (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 07:43 AM - Re: Capacitor for Rotax (Richard Girard)
     4. 07:57 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 08:26 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Marvin Haught)
     6. 08:46 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 08:47 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 09:11 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (nuckollsr)
     9. 09:36 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Marvin Haught)
    10. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Marvin Haught)
    11. 09:55 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Mike Welch)
    12. 10:17 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (rampil)
    13. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Robert Mitchell)
    14. 12:16 PM - Re: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    15. 12:39 PM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Marvin Haught)
    16. 12:43 PM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (rampil)
    17. 01:05 PM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Mike Welch)
    18. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Mike Welch)
    19. 01:37 PM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Marvin Haught)
    20. 01:54 PM - Re: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Marvin Haught)
    21. 02:07 PM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Ralph & Maria Finch)
    22. 05:27 PM - Z-13/8 Rev. Q (Stan Blanton)
    23. 07:37 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Rev. Q (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    24. 07:43 PM - Thermocouples (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:46:10 AM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Pondering
    As I have recently completed wiring for the z-16...I find myself going through what-if questions. Not uncommon to most pilots as this is what saves our bacon should the deamon in question present itself. so... If while in flight the crowbar trips an over-voltage and in turn the alternator disconnect relay does its thing... 1. What would be my indicator that this has indeed happened? 2. Other than knowing I need to land soon, what other steps should I take? 3. Should I turn off the ALT, the ALT and BATT and just rely on my essential buss? 4. Will cycling the ALT/BATT re-set the Alternator Relay if the overvoltage has subsided? Would this be good practice or just asking for it? Thanks for your thoughts Dan


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:13:20 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Pondering
    At 02:41 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote: ><dan@azshowersolutions.com> > >As I have recently completed wiring for the z-16...I find myself >going through >what-if questions. Not uncommon to most pilots as this is what saves >our bacon >should the deamon in question present itself. >so... If while in flight the crowbar trips an over-voltage and in turn the >alternator disconnect relay does its thing... >1. What would be my indicator that this has indeed happened? Low voltage light comes on . . . >2. Other than knowing I need to land soon, what other steps should I take? How soon? Do you KNOW what the capacity of your battery is for sustaining flight? Do you have a plan for reducing loads on the battery to MEET your design goals for battery only ops? Do you plan to carry flight bag accessories intended to mitigate the effects of electrical power loss? http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf >3. Should I turn off the ALT, the ALT and BATT and just rely on my essential >buss? That's up to you what do you WANT to be able to accomplish with no alternator and how are you planning to meet those design goals with confidence? >4. Will cycling the ALT/BATT re-set the Alternator Relay if the >overvoltage has >subsided? Would this be good practice or just asking for it? Actually, just pushing the breaker back in will bring the alternator back on line. Just in case the event might have been a transient event, you can do this one time and it's good to monitor system voltage if it's displayed anywhere on the panel. If the voltage starts to climb abnormally, you can pull the breaker . . . or it may climb so fast that you don't have to pull it . . . it will trip by itself. Check out chapter 17 in the 'Connection. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:43:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Capacitor for Rotax
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    B & C has them. I don't remember what I paid for it, but it was under $20. Rick Girard On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>wrote: > eanderson@carolina.rr.com> > > Here is a source with some as cheap as $5.00 > > http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=22%2c000uF+25V > > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "agibeaut" <aagibeaut@yahoo.com> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 8:13 PM > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Capacitor for Rotax > > >> >> Anyone know where I can buy the 22,000uF 25V capacitor listed on the Rotax >> wiring diagram? The price wanted by a Rotax service center seems a little >> outrageous. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319521#319521 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:57:37 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Ralph asks: I just discovered my faithful old Radio Shack DMM is wonky, the little scale at the bottom of the LCD displays reads correctly between 0-30, but the digits don't correspond. Time for a new DMM. I could just go back to the Shack and get whatever they have, but would like to check here for a recommendation. Mr. Nuckolls, any advice? A brief search using Google reveals many nifty new features in DMMs these days. Anything an airplane builder should look for? Etienne says: In my experience, those cheap and nasty ones offer the best value for money. After I damaged my mid-range DMM (snapped the knob off), I replaced it with a cheapy, and have had twice the service life, maybe 1% less accuracy, and complete lack of concern for its well-being when chucking it into the tool box. I've gone through a single 9V battery in about 8 years, and the little beast keeps on going. Unlike my nice one. For what we do (if all you're doing is typical hobbyist stuff), the true-rms, computer-connectible, super gizmo is complete overkill. Something that can measure voltage, current (even if you have to change plugs for the different scales) and continuity will provide all the functionality that you'll ever need, and none of those require any sort of precision better than a few parts in a hundred. Ray suggests: My solution is to have one GOOD meter for my bench, which I treat with TLC, and 1/2 dozen of the ultra cheap (<$5) from HF or RS. I'm able to have one at hand where ever I am and if I question what the cheap one says, I can bring out the good one. Right on guys. A few days ago I mentioned an experiment wherein I gathered up all the multi-meters within handy reach to compare their agreement for reading a particular voltage on the workbench. The price range of the sampled instruments ran from $30 to $300. A $3 Harbor Freight sample wasn't handy but I've got a few of those around somewhere too. The experiment demonstrated the relatively equivalent accuracy of a wide range of devices. As others have already suggested, it's better to have a few cheapies than to blow your total budget on one Cadillac device. This is because the vast majority of uses for a multi-meter is to answer yes/no questions. Is the bus hot? Is the device drawing ballpark expected current? Does this pathway have continuity? The relative precision of the instrument doesn't help you do a better job. 50 years ago, price bought you more precision, perhaps more robustness and certainly more sensitivity. My very first purchase of a "professional" multimeter was the day I got hired at Boeing for $86/wk. The instrument was a Tripplet 630 an cost me most of that week's pay. http://ralphselectronics.biz/images/TRIP-630NS.jpg The modern descendant of that instrument is still offered for about $500. It's got a few more features than the one I bought 59 years ago. Interestingly enough, the $3 Harbor Freight special is more sensitive (higher input impedance) and just as accurate (1.5%) as the 630 for a tiny fraction of the money. The $3 device IS not as robust but for most of our purposes, we can treat it as a disposable device. If the Tripplet craps, or gets crunched, you get it fixed or perhaps cry a lot. If the HF craps, you pitch it and get another one. In fact, when you buy the el-cheapo, you might get two or three. Need to set up your voltage regulator? Do the po-boy's calibration study I suggested earlier this week and you're good to go without having to invest a lot of $time$ on an instrument with features that may not offers a good return on investment. At the same time, keep an eye on the offerings at garage sales, ebay, and periodic special sale prices at RS, etc. You can often exploit a really good value on the purchase of an instrument with more chrome and foxtails. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:26:22 AM PST US
    From: Marvin Haught <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Bob - Do you have any experience with the Knight multimeters. Looking at their website http://www.knightonline.com/meters, they seem to have a nice variety at price that seem to be a good value. Some friends of mine bought 15 of them for use in a vo-tech school program for aircraft and auto mechanics and are totally sold on the quality and value (if anyone is rough on tools, it is mechanic students!). Looking at the variety offered on the site, what features would you recommend for a home hobbyist, aircraft homebuilder? I'm just getting started in the electronics end of things, have been lurking on here, but know just enough to be dangerous right now. I am interested in purchasing one, because they have temperature measuring that appears to be quite accurate, and since I teach fabric covering for Stewart Systems, and do custom covering, I need one for calibrating my heating irons. M. Haught On 11/16/2010 9:57 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > Ralph asks: > > I just discovered my faithful old Radio Shack DMM is wonky, the little > scale > at the bottom of the LCD displays reads correctly between 0-30, but the > digits don't correspond. Time for a new DMM. > > I could just go back to the Shack and get whatever they have, but > would like > to check here for a recommendation. Mr. Nuckolls, any advice? A brief > search using Google reveals many nifty new features in DMMs these days. > Anything an airplane builder should look for? > > Etienne says: > > In my experience, those cheap and nasty ones offer the best value for > money. After I damaged my mid-range DMM (snapped the knob off), I > replaced it with a cheapy, and have had twice the service life, maybe > 1% less accuracy, and complete lack of concern for its well-being when > chucking it into the tool box. I've gone through a single 9V battery > in about 8 years, and the little beast keeps on going. Unlike my nice > one. > > For what we do (if all you're doing is typical hobbyist stuff), the > true-rms, computer-connectible, super gizmo is complete overkill. > Something that can measure voltage, current (even if you have to > change plugs for the different scales) and continuity will provide all > the functionality that you'll ever need, and none of those require any > sort of precision better than a few parts in a hundred. > Ray suggests: > > My solution is to have one GOOD meter for my bench, which I treat with > TLC, and 1/2 dozen of the ultra cheap (<$5) from HF or RS. I'm able > to have one at hand where ever I am and if I question what the cheap > one says, I can bring out the good one. > > Right on guys. > > A few days ago I mentioned an experiment wherein > I gathered up all the multi-meters within handy > reach to compare their agreement for reading a > particular voltage on the workbench. The price > range of the sampled instruments ran from $30 to > $300. A $3 Harbor Freight sample wasn't handy but > I've got a few of those around somewhere too. The > experiment demonstrated the relatively equivalent > accuracy of a wide range of devices. > > As others have already suggested, it's better to > have a few cheapies than to blow your total budget > on one Cadillac device. This is because the vast > majority of uses for a multi-meter is to answer > yes/no questions. Is the bus hot? Is the device > drawing ballpark expected current? Does this pathway > have continuity? The relative precision of the > instrument doesn't help you do a better job. > > 50 years ago, price bought you more precision, > perhaps more robustness and certainly more > sensitivity. My very first purchase of a > "professional" multimeter was the day I got > hired at Boeing for $86/wk. The instrument was > a Tripplet 630 an cost me most of that week's > pay. > > http://ralphselectronics.biz/images/TRIP-630NS.jpg > > The modern descendant of that instrument is > still offered for about $500. It's got a few > more features than the one I bought 59 years > ago. Interestingly enough, the $3 Harbor Freight > special is more sensitive (higher input impedance) > and just as accurate (1.5%) as the 630 for a > tiny fraction of the money. > > The $3 device IS not as robust but for most > of our purposes, we can treat it as a disposable > device. If the Tripplet craps, or gets crunched, > you get it fixed or perhaps cry a lot. If the HF > craps, you pitch it and get another one. In fact, > when you buy the el-cheapo, you might get two or three. > > Need to set up your voltage regulator? Do the > po-boy's calibration study I suggested earlier > this week and you're good to go without having > to invest a lot of $time$ on an instrument with > features that may not offers a good return > on investment. > > At the same time, keep an eye on the offerings > at garage sales, ebay, and periodic special sale > prices at RS, etc. You can often exploit a really > good value on the purchase of an instrument > with more chrome and foxtails. > > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:46:36 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    At 10:20 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote: <handainc@madisoncounty.net> Bob - Do you have any experience with the Knight multimeters. Looking at their website http://www.knightonline.com/meters, they seem to have a nice variety at price that seem to be a good value. Some friends of mine bought 15 of them for use in a vo-tech school program for aircraft and auto mechanics and are totally sold on the quality and value (if anyone is rough on tools, it is mechanic students!). Looking at the variety offered on the site, what features would you recommend for a home hobbyist, aircraft homebuilder? I have no personal experience with these devices so your friend is in much better position to tell you how he assess the return on his investment. I'm just getting started in the electronics end of things, have been lurking on here, but know just enough to be dangerous right now. I am interested in purchasing one, because they have temperature measuring that appears to be quite accurate, and since I teach fabric covering for Stewart Systems, and do custom covering, I need one for calibrating my heating irons. You have identified a specific feature (thermocouple input) that drives your purchase decision. I didn't see the Knight device with this feature but a number of suppliers offer it. I note that Radio Shack is offering the EXtech EX430 with a thermocouple input for about $90. I can offer you observations about the instruments I have used but I have no first hand knowledge of the devices you've cited. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:47:37 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    At 10:20 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote: <handainc@madisoncounty.net> Bob - Do you have any experience with the Knight multimeters. Looking at their website http://www.knightonline.com/meters, they seem to have a nice variety at price that seem to be a good value. Some friends of mine bought 15 of them for use in a vo-tech school program for aircraft and auto mechanics and are totally sold on the quality and value (if anyone is rough on tools, it is mechanic students!). Looking at the variety offered on the site, what features would you recommend for a home hobbyist, aircraft homebuilder? I have no personal experience with these devices so your friend is in much better position to tell you how he assess the return on his investment. I'm just getting started in the electronics end of things, have been lurking on here, but know just enough to be dangerous right now. I am interested in purchasing one, because they have temperature measuring that appears to be quite accurate, and since I teach fabric covering for Stewart Systems, and do custom covering, I need one for calibrating my heating irons. You have identified a specific feature (thermocouple input) that drives your purchase decision. I didn't see the Knight device with this feature but a number of suppliers offer it. I note that Radio Shack is offering the EXtech EX430 with a thermocouple input for about $90. I can offer you observations about the instruments I have used but I have no first hand knowledge of the devices you've cited. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:11:14 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls@aeroelectric.com>
    PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:47 am Post subject: Recommend a digital multimeter? At 10:20 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote: Bob - Do you have any experience with the Knight multimeters. Looking at their website http://www.knightonline.com/meters, they seem to have a nice variety at price that seem to be a good value. See: http://tinyurl.com/2bhdsnv Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319590#319590


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:36:54 AM PST US
    From: Marvin Haught <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Thanks Bob - That at least gives me a ball park price for comparison. They have a model they call an "Automotive" (http://www.knightonline.com/automm.htm) that looks handy and has the thermocouple input. Unless someone on here has a better recommendation, I think that is the way I will go. Price is $117 plus shipping and has an available AC/DC current clamp and a RPM measuring device. M. Haught On 11/16/2010 10:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 10:20 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote: > <handainc@madisoncounty.net> > > Bob - > > Do you have any experience with the Knight multimeters. Looking at > their website http://www.knightonline.com/meters, they seem to have a > nice variety at price that seem to be a good value. Some friends of > mine bought 15 of them for use in a vo-tech school program for > aircraft and auto mechanics and are totally sold on the quality and > value (if anyone is rough on tools, it is mechanic students!). > Looking at the variety offered on the site, what features would you > recommend for a home hobbyist, aircraft homebuilder? > > I have no personal experience with these devices so > your friend is in much better position to tell > you how he assess the return on his investment. > > I'm just getting started in the electronics end of things, have been > lurking on here, but know just enough to be dangerous right now. I am > interested in purchasing one, because they have temperature measuring > that appears to be quite accurate, and since I teach fabric covering > for Stewart Systems, and do custom covering, I need one for > calibrating my heating irons. > > You have identified a specific feature (thermocouple > input) that drives your purchase decision. I didn't > see the Knight device with this feature but a number > of suppliers offer it. I note that Radio Shack is offering > the EXtech EX430 with a thermocouple input for > about $90. > > I can offer you observations about the instruments I have used > but I have no first hand knowledge of the devices > you've cited. > > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:47:25 AM PST US
    From: Marvin Haught <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Thanks Bob - Actually found that same unit for $19.99 on a google search. That works for me at an almost "throw away" price. M. Haught On 11/16/2010 11:07 AM, nuckollsr wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "nuckollsr"<bob.nuckolls@aeroelectric.com> > > PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:47 am Post subject: Recommend a digital multimeter? > At 10:20 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote: > > > Bob - > > Do you have any experience with the Knight multimeters. Looking at > their website http://www.knightonline.com/meters, they seem to have > a nice variety at price that seem to be a good value. > > See: http://tinyurl.com/2bhdsnv > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319590#319590 > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:55:51 AM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Although I have a Radio Shack DMM=2C which cost me about $20=2C it defini tely feels like a cheapie. It works fine and all=2C but it has about 10" test leads =2C and they are near impossible to fold back inside the unit=2C and then close the cover. Again=2C this little meter worked fine=2C but I just felt like get somethi ng that felt more "substantial." We don't have much decent shopping in my new town=2C e xcept for WalMart. I looked over their selection=2C and one unit caught my eye. It was the typical bright yellow/black standard appearence DMM. At $20-$21=2C it looked like a bargain. So I bought it=2C and initially I used it for checking hot circuits=2C etc=2C on my house=2C which I was building at the time. After I finished the house=2C I needed to check on some resistors=2C and found that my year-old preferred DMM didn't work anymore. Upon taking it apart=2C my gue ss is they don't work long after someone dumps coffee in them. Greatly dissapointed =2C I tried to find the SAME one on eBay. No luck. After looking everywhere and not f inding it elsewhere=2C I checked back at my local WalMart=2C and fortunately=2C it's still there. So=2C I grabbed a new one. I'm very pleased with it's performance=2C and I keep it away from most beverages! (it wasn't ME that dumped something in it) The DMM unit is made by "Etek". The model # is 10709. It has the basic functions you'd expect to find=2C plus a thermister for checking temperatures. I lik e it=2C I'd recommend it. It also has a few bonus features=2C like=3B flashlight and "non-contact" vo ltage warning alarm=2C although with my hearing=2C I don't hear it if it sounds. It's probably Ch inese=2C but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a total cheapie. One small "oh goodie" of having to buy a new one is=2C I now have two set s of leads. So=2C I converted one set into alligator clips. Now=2C I have a choice....clips or pointy ends. So=2C that's my recommendation=3B Etek #101709 ~$21. Just keep your employees coffee away from it. Mike Welch


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:17:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    From: "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
    DMM T/C for fabric covering... Interesting, I was going to recommend you look for a cheapy with thermocouple input. I'd find that feature useful for troubleshooting EGT probes. The DMMs I have seen mostly have K type curves built in, not the lower temp J curves. A K tc would be completely unusable for your purpose, but probably still a more useful function than "diode test" or hFe (transistor gain) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319602#319602


    Message 13


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    Time: 11:21:24 AM PST US
    From: Robert Mitchell <rmitch1@hughes.net>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    I have several from Harbor Freight from time to time they go on sale for $3.99, seem to work as good as a top of the line Radio Shack DMM. Bob Mitchell Sent from my iPad On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:14 PM, "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com> wrote: > > DMM T/C for fabric covering... > > > Interesting, I was going to recommend you look for a cheapy with > thermocouple input. I'd find that feature useful for troubleshooting > EGT probes. The DMMs I have seen mostly have K type curves built > in, not the lower temp J curves. A K tc would be completely unusable > for your purpose, but probably still a more useful function than > "diode test" or hFe (transistor gain) > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319602#319602 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 12:16:24 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    At 12:14 PM 11/16/2010, you wrote: > >DMM T/C for fabric covering... > > >Interesting, I was going to recommend you look for a cheapy with >thermocouple input. I'd find that feature useful for troubleshooting >EGT probes. The DMMs I have seen mostly have K type curves built >in, not the lower temp J curves. A K t/c would be completely unusable >for your purpose, but probably still a more useful function than >"diode test" or hFe (transistor gain) How does a K wire device become "unusable" unless the only t/c wire you own is type J? I think K-wire t/c is the industry preferred because it is suitable for use over a wider range than J-wire. I don't recall ever seeing a spool of J-wire at HBC. We used a lot of K and some T wire. I think all the common multi-meters with T/C inputs are K-wire. But every temperature you might wish to explore with J- wire can also be quantified with K-wire sensors. By the way, I was unpacking some moving bins looking for some parts and found an HF $3 multimeter waiting for some service. The internal fuse was popped. I replaced the fuse and compared it with the bench Fluke. It proved to be a 1% accuracy device on the DC and resistance scales. One thing I forgot to mention about selecting a multimeter: I avoid instruments with captive test probe leads. Banana plug jacks for a variety of leads is handy. It's even better if the jacks are spaced 3/4" . . . this allows you to take advantage of dual banana plug accessories and adapters Emacs! Emacs! that have been very popular in test leads market for many moons. You'll want to make up leads with insulated alligator clips on the end. Emacs! More often than not, I can "probe" a circuit with the tip of an alligator clip but quite often I want to have my hands free to do something else while the meter is clipped into place for a measurement. But if you can find a good deal on something that is not 3/4" spaced, it's not a big deal. Bob . . .


    Message 15


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    Time: 12:39:02 PM PST US
    From: Marvin Haught <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Okay - this is strange! I have that exact same unit, and never noticed that it had temp measurement on it! However, I did not get a thermocouple with the unit - did yours come with the thermocouple probe? M. Haught On 11/16/2010 11:53 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > Although I have a Radio Shack DMM, which cost me about $20, it > definitely feels > like a cheapie. It works fine and all, but it has about 10" test > leads, and they are > near impossible to fold back inside the unit, and then close the cover. > > Again, this little meter worked fine, but I just felt like get > something that felt > more "substantial." We don't have much decent shopping in my new > town, except > for WalMart. I looked over their selection, and one unit caught my > eye. It was > the typical bright yellow/black standard appearence DMM. At $20-$21, > it looked > like a bargain. So I bought it, and initially I used it for checking > hot circuits, etc, > on my house, which I was building at the time. > > After I finished the house, I needed to check on some resistors, and > found that my > year-old preferred DMM didn't work anymore. Upon taking it apart, my > guess is they > don't work long after someone dumps coffee in them. Greatly > dissapointed, I tried > to find the SAME one on eBay. No luck. After looking everywhere and > not finding it > elsewhere, I checked back at my local WalMart, and fortunately, it's > still there. So, > I grabbed a new one. I'm very pleased with it's performance, and I > keep it away > from most beverages! (it wasn't ME that dumped something in it) > > The DMM unit is made by "Etek". The model # is 10709. It has the > basic functions > you'd expect to find, plus a thermister for checking temperatures. I > like it, I'd recommend it. > It also has a few bonus features, like; flashlight and "non-contact" > voltage warning alarm, > although with my hearing, I don't hear it if it sounds. It's probably > Chinese, but I wouldn't > necessarily consider it a total cheapie. > One small "oh goodie" of having to buy a new one is, I now have two > sets of leads. So, I > converted one set into alligator clips. Now, I have a choice....clips > or pointy ends. So, that's > my recommendation; Etek #101709 ~$21. Just keep your employees > coffee away from it. > > Mike Welch > * > > *


    Message 16


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    Time: 12:43:00 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    From: "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
    Hi Bob, My recollection of the voltage curves for J and K types would render the fabric range down at the low voltage end for a K type. If these are the cheap meters, you'll get better resolution with a J because of higher voltage per degree and larger voltage at 300F. OK, so less desirable if not useless. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319620#319620


    Message 17


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    Time: 01:05:38 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Marvin=2C Geesh=2C what are the odds?!! As a matter of fact=2C yes=2C I have it=2C plus I also the extra temp probe from the first one. Want it? It's yours. Send me your address and I'll mail it to you. Mike W. From: handainc@madisoncounty.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Recommend a digital multimeter? Okay - this is strange! I have that exact same unit=2C and never noticed t hat it had temp measurement on it! However=2C I did not get a thermocouple with the unit - did yours come with the thermocouple probe? M. Haught On 11/16/2010 11:53 AM=2C Mike Welch wrote: Although I have a Radio Shack DMM=2C which cost me about $20=2C it defini tely feels like a cheapie. It works fine and all=2C but it has about 10" test leads =2C and they are near impossible to fold back inside the unit=2C and then close the cover. Again=2C this little meter worked fine=2C but I just felt like get somethi ng that felt more "substantial." We don't have much decent shopping in my new town=2C e xcept for WalMart. I looked over their selection=2C and one unit caught my eye. It was the typical bright yellow/black standard appearence DMM. At $20-$21=2C it looked like a bargain. So I bought it=2C and initially I used it for checking hot circuits=2C etc=2C on my house=2C which I was building at the time. After I finished the house=2C I needed to check on some resistors=2C and found that my year-old preferred DMM didn't work anymore. Upon taking it apart=2C my gue ss is they don't work long after someone dumps coffee in them. Greatly dissapointed =2C I tried to find the SAME one on eBay. No luck. After looking everywhere and not f inding it elsewhere=2C I checked back at my local WalMart=2C and fortunately=2C it's still there. So=2C I grabbed a new one. I'm very pleased with it's performance=2C and I keep it away from most beverages! (it wasn't ME that dumped something in it) The DMM unit is made by "Etek". The model # is 10709. It has the basic functions you'd expect to find=2C plus a thermister for checking temperatures. I lik e it=2C I'd recommend it. It also has a few bonus features=2C like=3B flashlight and "non-contact" vo ltage warning alarm=2C although with my hearing=2C I don't hear it if it sounds. It's probably Ch inese=2C but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a total cheapie. One small "oh goodie" of having to buy a new one is=2C I now have two set s of leads. So=2C I converted one set into alligator clips. Now=2C I have a choice....clips or pointy ends. So=2C that's my recommendation=3B Etek #101709 ~$21. Just keep your employees coffee away from it. Mike Welch


    Message 18


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    Time: 01:13:33 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Ira=2C Having done the fabric last year on my Kolb MkIII=2C I can't imagine usin g a DMM temp probe on the Poly Fiber=2C when you consider they have IR Thermometers that are S O fast and accurate=2C like these=3B http://cgi.ebay.com/Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-Digital-Thermometer-Laser-/390 225147065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb3b34b9 I paid about $35 for mine about three years ago=2C but the prices appear to have come down a lot. I used it to monitor the iron mostly=2C sometimes every 10-15 seconds . Takes about 2 seconds to check a temperature. Just a thought....... Mike Welch


    Message 19


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    Time: 01:37:09 PM PST US
    From: Marvin Haught <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    LOL! Yes, I want it!! I didnt' get the temp probe with mine and was just searching on line for a source! This is great!! Thanks Mike! I'd be glad to pay you something for it or at least, pay the postage!! Marvin Haught P.O. Box 419 Huntsville, AR 72740 M. Haught On 11/16/2010 3:02 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > Marvin, > > Geesh, what are the odds?!! As a matter of fact, yes, I have it, > plus I also the extra temp probe from > the first one. Want it? It's yours. > Send me your address and I'll mail it to you. > > Mike W. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 14:36:08 -0600 > From: handainc@madisoncounty.net > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Recommend a digital multimeter? > > Okay - this is strange! I have that exact same unit, and never > noticed that it had temp measurement on it! However, I did not get a > thermocouple with the unit - did yours come with the thermocouple probe? > > M. Haught > > On 11/16/2010 11:53 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > > Although I have a Radio Shack DMM, which cost me about $20, it > definitely feels > like a cheapie. It works fine and all, but it has about 10" test > leads, and they are > near impossible to fold back inside the unit, and then close the > cover. > > Again, this little meter worked fine, but I just felt like get > something that felt > more "substantial." We don't have much decent shopping in my new > town, except > for WalMart. I looked over their selection, and one unit caught > my eye. It was > the typical bright yellow/black standard appearence DMM. At > $20-$21, it looked > like a bargain. So I bought it, and initially I used it for > checking hot circuits, etc, > on my house, which I was building at the time. > > After I finished the house, I needed to check on some resistors, > and found that my > year-old preferred DMM didn't work anymore. Upon taking it apart, > my guess is they > don't work long after someone dumps coffee in them. Greatly > dissapointed, I tried > to find the SAME one on eBay. No luck. After looking everywhere > and not finding it > elsewhere, I checked back at my local WalMart, and fortunately, > it's still there. So, > I grabbed a new one. I'm very pleased with it's performance, and > I keep it away > from most beverages! (it wasn't ME that dumped something in it) > > The DMM unit is made by "Etek". The model # is 10709. It has > the basic functions > you'd expect to find, plus a thermister for checking > temperatures. I like it, I'd recommend it. > It also has a few bonus features, like; flashlight and > "non-contact" voltage warning alarm, > although with my hearing, I don't hear it if it sounds. It's > probably Chinese, but I wouldn't > necessarily consider it a total cheapie. > One small "oh goodie" of having to buy a new one is, I now have > two sets of leads. So, I > converted one set into alligator clips. Now, I have a > choice....clips or pointy ends. So, that's > my recommendation; Etek #101709 ~$21. Just keep your employees > coffee away from it. > > Mike Welch > > * > > * > > > * > > _blank>www.aeroelectric.com > /" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com > =_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > * > * > > *


    Message 20


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    Time: 01:54:07 PM PST US
    From: Marvin Haught <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
    Subject: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Mike - I'm a distributor for Stewart Systems and use irons extensively, and have found that the IR units vary greatly in accuracy, hence my desire to have reliable testing source in the form of a mulltimeter. Now, I calibrate the little temp sensitive spring units with a multimeter and use them in my classes rather than relying on the IR units, except for the ones I have verified are accurate. I have several brands of the IR units and several of the brand I sell, and only 3 of the 10 or so are accurate (of course, it depends upon the type of surface you are reading). And when I say "inaccurate" I'm talking 40 to 50 degrees either hot or cold. Like you, I monitor my irons carefully when shrinking. M. Haught On 11/16/2010 3:10 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > Ira, > > Having done the fabric last year on my Kolb MkIII, I can't imagine > using a DMM temp probe > on the Poly Fiber, when you consider they have IR Thermometers that > are SO fast and > accurate, like these; > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-Digital-Thermometer-Laser-/390225147065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb3b34b9 > <http://cgi.ebay.com/Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-Digital-Thermometer-Laser-/390225147065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb3b34b9> > > I paid about $35 for mine about three years ago, but the prices > appear to have come down a > lot. I used it to monitor the iron mostly, sometimes every 10-15 > seconds. Takes about 2 seconds to check > a temperature. Just a thought....... > > Mike Welch > > > * > > *


    Message 21


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    Time: 02:07:56 PM PST US
    From: "Ralph & Maria Finch" <ralphmariafinch@gmail.com>
    Subject: Recommend a digital multimeter?
    Fellas, thanks for the advice. I just came back from Harbor Freight with two of their fine products in hand (http://bit.ly/9UbhcS). I splurged and paid the big bucks for the backlight unit. OK, I also ordered a Fluke 115 from Amazon (http://amzn.to/aU9nm8). For each type of tool I do like to have at least one quality example in addition to the HF knockoffs. Now back to building...gotta use these things! Ralph Finch Davis, California, USA RV-9A QB-SA


    Message 22


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    Time: 05:27:30 PM PST US
    From: "Stan Blanton" <s.blanton@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Z-13/8 Rev. Q
    Is there a simplified schematic available for Z-13/8 that utilizes the always present battery to energize the SD-8? Thanks, Stan Blanton


    Message 23


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    Time: 07:37:30 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Z-13/8 Rev. Q
    At 07:22 PM 11/16/2010, you wrote: >Is there a simplified schematic available for Z-13/8 that utilizes >the always present battery to energize the SD-8? > Not sure I understand "simplified" or "energize". The latest configuration is here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8Q.pdf The extra diodes and resistors in the SD-8 wiring along with diodes on the alternator disconnect relay will use the battery to jump start the SD-8. Is there some additional functional feature you need? Bob . . .


    Message 24


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    Time: 07:43:54 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Thermocouples
    At 02:40 PM 11/16/2010, you wrote: > >Hi Bob, > >My recollection of the voltage curves for J and K types would >render the fabric range down at the low voltage end for a K type. >If these are the cheap meters, you'll get better resolution with a J >because of higher voltage per degree and larger voltage at 300F. > >OK, so less desirable if not useless. Okay . . . Yes, the voltage vs. temperature gradient for J is larger than K and therefore easier to measure with greater resolution. But modern digitizing and processing makes this less of an issue. The display resolution on the Fluke 51/52 t/c meter is 0.1 C or F but the stated accuracy of instrument is +/- 1.1C with K-wire then there's accuracy of the wire itself which can stack another 1.5 to 2.5 degrees C error with either J or K assuming the wire meets industry performance minimums. http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/776AB03E065228408625727B00034E20 Multi-meters with t/c inputs tend not to be as capable as a dedicated t/c device like the Fluke 51/52 devices. I think the last time I compared one of my multi-meters with the Fluke, there was a difference of 4 degrees at 100C. The thrust of this missive goes to the notion that thermocouples and their display devices are subject to well understood errors. Further, one needs to be mindful of additional errors that can crop up in poorly crafted joints. So don't be too surprised if side-by-side t/c instruments reading the same point differ by 5-10 degrees at CHT temperatures. Bob . . .




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