Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:11 AM - What's My Contribution Used For? (Matt Dralle)
1. 06:43 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Rev. Q (Stan Blanton)
2. 07:14 AM - Re: Thermocouples (rampil)
3. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Noel Loveys)
4. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (Marvin Haught)
5. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Rev. Q (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Thermocouples (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 10:41 AM - Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? (David)
8. 11:21 AM - HiRose Circular Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:31 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Rev. R (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 12:40 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Rev. R (Stan Blanton)
11. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Rev. R (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 08:04 PM - Unique fasteners supplier (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 08:26 PM - Sources list . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 09:06 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Rev. R (B Tomm)
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| Subject: | What's My Contribution Used For? |
Dear Listers,
Some have asked, "What's my Contribution used for?" and that's a good question.
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Thank you for your support!
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Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Rev. Q |
Bob,
I believe I should have used the term SD8 "self excitation".
Wasn't the self excitation feature added to allow the SD8 to come online
without a battery on line?
With a Z-13/8 architecture the battery is always connected to the SD8
circuit.
Assuming proper maintenance of the battery, is there any
significant/reasonable simplified component reduction possible or advisable
in the self excitation feature for the SD-8 ? (ref. message 44709 below)
Thanks,
Stan Blanton
Match:
#11
Message:
#44709
Apr 05, 2009
From:
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject:
Re: SD-8 self-excitation in Z-13/8
<http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=79864148?KEYS=_s
elf_&_excitation?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=11?SERIAL=06243130800?SHOWB
UTTONS=NO>
At 09:35 AM 4/4/2009, you wrote:
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>> I will suggest that a second E-bus feed directly from the
>> battery for combined with well considered preventative
>> maintenance is the best hedge against loss of battery
>> contactor. This takes the sans battery performance of
>> the alternator/regulator out of the equation.
>Given a Z-13/8 architecture, what is the point in making the SD-8
>self exciting? The battery is always present even if the battery
>contactor fails.
Yeah, in a 13/8 configuration the self-excitation
feature is redundant. I was just putting it into
all the drawings citing the SD-8. It would be a pretty
cool thing if B&C would make this feature a part of
their stock regulator.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Thermocouples |
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the input!
When I responded, I was not considering Fluke, HP, or Tektronix,
but rather cheapy $10 DMMs with cheap ADCs with poor temporal and voltage resolution
and precision.
My concerns would be negligible on a $500 Fluke!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319780#319780
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? |
I use a special wax strips which melt at specific temps. I believe the
temps I have are 325 and 350 (I'd have to check). I simply mark the bottom
of my iron and when the 325 melts and the 350 doesn't I'm in the park. I
also have the IR thermometer but I tend to use it to find a dead cylinder
without frying my hands.
Noel
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marvin
Haught
Sent: November 16, 2010 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
Mike -
I'm a distributor for Stewart Systems and use irons extensively, and have
found that the IR units vary greatly in accuracy, hence my desire to have
reliable testing source in the form of a mulltimeter. Now, I calibrate the
little temp sensitive spring units with a multimeter and use them in my
classes rather than relying on the IR units, except for the ones I have
verified are accurate. I have several brands of the IR units and several of
the brand I sell, and only 3 of the 10 or so are accurate (of course, it
depends upon the type of surface you are reading). And when I say
"inaccurate" I'm talking 40 to 50 degrees either hot or cold. Like you, I
monitor my irons carefully when shrinking.
M. Haught
On 11/16/2010 3:10 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
Ira,
Having done the fabric last year on my Kolb MkIII, I can't imagine using a
DMM temp probe
on the Poly Fiber, when you consider they have IR Thermometers that are SO
fast and
accurate, like these;
http://cgi.ebay.com/Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-Digital-Thermometer-Laser-/39022
5147065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
<http://cgi.ebay.com/Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-Digital-Thermometer-Laser-/3902
25147065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb3b34b9> &hash=item5adb3b34b9
I paid about $35 for mine about three years ago, but the prices appear to
have come down a
lot. I used it to monitor the iron mostly, sometimes every 10-15 seconds.
Takes about 2 seconds to check
a temperature. Just a thought.......
Mike Welch
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? |
Thanks Noel for the feedback, and the wax strips would probably be
okay using a solvent system with proper cleaning, but with water based
products, ANY exposure of the fabric to any wax or oil is a HUGE
potential problem. Even a fingerprint from rubbing your nose will show
up when filling the fabric with the UV Block and filler. We use a
special cleaner periodically throughout the covering process to prevent
contamination from oils and waxes. Even tack wipes supposedly
specifically for water based products can cause huge problems with fish
eyes in the top coat.
M. Haught
On 11/17/2010 9:29 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> I use a special wax strips which melt at specific temps. I believe
> the temps I have are 325 and 350 (I'd have to check). I simply mark
> the bottom of my iron and when the 325 melts and the 350 doesn't I'm
> in the park. I also have the IR thermometer but I tend to use it to
> find a dead cylinder without frying my hands.
>
> Noel
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Marvin Haught
> *Sent:* November 16, 2010 6:06 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Recommend a digital multimeter?
>
> Mike -
>
> I'm a distributor for Stewart Systems and use irons extensively, and
> have found that the IR units vary greatly in accuracy, hence my desire
> to have reliable testing source in the form of a mulltimeter. Now, I
> calibrate the little temp sensitive spring units with a multimeter and
> use them in my classes rather than relying on the IR units, except for
> the ones I have verified are accurate. I have several brands of the
> IR units and several of the brand I sell, and only 3 of the 10 or so
> are accurate (of course, it depends upon the type of surface you are
> reading). And when I say "inaccurate" I'm talking 40 to 50 degrees
> either hot or cold. Like you, I monitor my irons carefully when
> shrinking.
>
> M. Haught
>
> On 11/16/2010 3:10 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
>
> Ira,
>
> Having done the fabric last year on my Kolb MkIII, I can't imagine
> using a DMM temp probe
> on the Poly Fiber, when you consider they have IR Thermometers that
> are SO fast and
> accurate, like these;
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-Digital-Thermometer-Laser-/390225147065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb3b34b9
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-Digital-Thermometer-Laser-/390225147065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb3b34b9>
>
> I paid about $35 for mine about three years ago, but the prices
> appear to have come down a
> lot. I used it to monitor the iron mostly, sometimes every 10-15
> seconds. Takes about 2 seconds to check
> a temperature. Just a thought.......
>
> Mike Welch
>
> * *
> * *
>
> * *www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com><www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com>www.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/c= -Matt Dralle, List - The AeroElectric-List Email List utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> http://forums.matronics.com====
> *
>
> *
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Rev. Q |
At 08:35 AM 11/17/2010, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>I believe I should have used the term SD8 "self excitation".
>
>Wasn't the self excitation feature added to allow the SD8 to come
>online without a battery on line?
Yes, and the diodes added to the disconnect relay to allow it
to energize from EITHER the SD-8 or the Battery . . .
>With a Z-13/8 architecture the battery is always connected to the SD8 circuit.
???? No, normal ops call for the SD-8 to be in the
OFF position.
>Assuming proper maintenance of the battery, is there any
>significant/reasonable simplified component reduction possible or
>advisable in the self excitation feature for the SD-8 ?
Your right. The self excitation feature is based
on the notion that one might find themselves airborne
with a dead battery. I recall the conversation now. I
think we decided that the band-aid stacked on top of
the original Z-13/8 design goals was unnecessary
and presumes that an OBAM airplane builder would
find themselves in that situation after takeoff.
Given that you, I and 99.9% of the folks who read
this list will have a well considered Plan-B and
a preventative maintenance program to support it,
the SD-8 self-excitation and dual-feed for the
alternator relay are unnecessary and only adds to
parts count.
Thanks for the reminder! I think I'll take those
out.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Thermocouples |
At 09:11 AM 11/17/2010, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Thanks for the input!
>
>When I responded, I was not considering Fluke, HP, or Tektronix,
>but rather cheapy $10 DMMs with cheap ADCs with poor temporal and
>voltage resolution and precision.
>
>My concerns would be negligible on a $500 Fluke!
Understand.
For folks interested in elevating their temperature
measurement capabilities, an Ebay seller has about
a half dozen Fluke 51 meters for $66.00 BuyItNow (includes
shipping), item 170556237065.
See also items 140478886447, 220696564187, 270664205816
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Recommend a digital multimeter? |
I have a (believe it or not) a Craftsman DMM. It has a thermocouple for
temperature readings (k type, I think) as well as scales for freq (hz,)
and a proprietary link to serial port for computer connection. It
autoranges, can read (low) ac and dc amps, and has been quite reliable
during the years I've owned it. IIRC, it cost about $100 but was well
worth it. The hz scale alone helps me tweak the a/c generator in the
RV. Don't even know if it is available anymore but it's a model 82325.
It comes with alligator clips that screw onto the pointy ends as needed.
http://www.commercial.sears.com/comsale/industrial/toolcat/ti.cgi/item.ti/3143?tool=9-82325
David M.
Mike Welch wrote:
> Although I have a Radio Shack DMM, which cost me about $20, it
> definitely feels
> like a cheapie. It works fine and all, but it has about 10" test
> leads, and they are
> near impossible to fold back inside the unit, and then close the cover.
>
> Again, this little meter worked fine, but I just felt like get
> something that felt
> more "substantial." We don't have much decent shopping in my new
> town, except
> for WalMart. I looked over their selection, and one unit caught my
> eye. It was
> the typical bright yellow/black standard appearence DMM. At $20-$21,
> it looked
> like a bargain. So I bought it, and initially I used it for checking
> hot circuits, etc,
> on my house, which I was building at the time.
>
> After I finished the house, I needed to check on some resistors, and
> found that my
> year-old preferred DMM didn't work anymore. Upon taking it apart, my
> guess is they
> don't work long after someone dumps coffee in them. Greatly
> dissapointed, I tried
> to find the SAME one on eBay. No luck. After looking everywhere and
> not finding it
> elsewhere, I checked back at my local WalMart, and fortunately, it's
> still there. So,
> I grabbed a new one. I'm very pleased with it's performance, and I
> keep it away
> from most beverages! (it wasn't ME that dumped something in it)
>
> The DMM unit is made by "Etek". The model # is 10709. It has the
> basic functions
> you'd expect to find, plus a thermister for checking temperatures. I
> like it, I'd recommend it.
> It also has a few bonus features, like; flashlight and "non-contact"
> voltage warning alarm,
> although with my hearing, I don't hear it if it sounds. It's probably
> Chinese, but I wouldn't
> necessarily consider it a total cheapie.
> One small "oh goodie" of having to buy a new one is, I now have two
> sets of leads. So, I
> converted one set into alligator clips. Now, I have a choice....clips
> or pointy ends. So, that's
> my recommendation; Etek #101709 ~$21. Just keep your employees
> coffee away from it.
>
> Mike Welch
> *
>
> *
--
If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation and to Soros!
Message 8
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| Subject: | HiRose Circular Connectors |
While digging through moving bins, I ran across two
mated pairs of 10-conductor, HiRose circular connectors
having max i.d. of 0.95 inches and mated length of
4.5" including boots. These were extras for an instrumentation
job I did for HBC a few moons back. New in sealed plastic
bags.
I think these would do the job for control stick wiring
disconnects that will slide inside the stick. $30.00/pair
new. I'd let these go for $20.00/pair postage paid.
Emacs!
Emacs!
Interested readers should contact me directly
at nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Rev. R |
> Thanks for the reminder! I think I'll take those
> out.
>
> Bob . . .
I've done some house-keeping on Z-13/8 and published
a preliminary drawing at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8R%28Prelimary%29.pdf
Interested parties are invited to make suggestions
or make we aware of stubbed toes . . .
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Rev. R |
Bob,
In Rev. R of Z-13/8 I note a couple of changes that I hope you can clarify
for me.
The diodes are gone on the S704-1 relay for the dynamo. Is this intentional?
Is the deletion of the resistor across the capacitor also intentional?
Why the change from a fusible link to a fuse rating approx. 3x for the
circuit protection for the dynamo?
Thanks for furthering my electrical education.
Stan Blanton
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Rev. R |
At 02:33 PM 11/17/2010, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>In Rev. R of Z-13/8 I note a couple of changes that I hope you can
>clarify for me.
>
>The diodes are gone on the S704-1 relay for the dynamo. Is this intentional?
Yes, those were part of the "dead battery" scenario. The pair
of diodes allowed the self-excited SD-8 to close its own
connect relay even if the battery was dead . . . a situation
that is exceedingly low probability for a well designed/operated/
maintained OBAM aircraft.
>Is the deletion of the resistor across the capacitor also intentional?
Yes
>Why the change from a fusible link to a fuse rating approx. 3x for
>the circuit protection for the dynamo?
Fusible links are okay . . . but I was thinking
of 'tightening up' wiring between the battery (always
hot) and the SD-8 disconnect relay. This pathway needs
to be as short as practical. A fusible link in this location
COULD have been simply a short piece of 20AWG, but
it seemed a bit cleaner (faster and less smoke) to have
a real fuse in there . . . the commercial off the shelf
fuse holder comes with lead wires . . . hence the
replacement. 30A rating is less likely to pop due to
inrush charging the capacitor.
>
>Thanks for furthering my electrical education.
Thanks for asking. I should point out that this is
NOT a recommendation that anyone run out to the hangar
and replace RevQ with RevR . . . this is just another
step along the trail that evolved this architecture.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Unique fasteners supplier |
I'm not sure I ever turned the AeroElectric-List community
onto this company that stocks a nice range of product
in smaller socket head hardware at great prices.
http://rtlfasteners.com
Check these guys out . . .
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Sources list . . . |
Just got an email from an AeroElectric-List reader
reminding me of a Sources List we generated about
a year ago that did indeed link to RTL Fasteners.
I'll invite List members to review the list at
http://aeroelectric.com/Sources.html
and let me know if there's a useful link that
needs to be added.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Rev. R |
Bob,
Thanks for your work on this. Couple minor points and some questions.
1) Your drawing is for one Emag and one Pmag as shown in the lower right
powered from different busses, but the battery bus on the left shows L and R
ignitions powered from there.
2) Again, at the battery bus, the 15amp fuse feeds a short 14AWG wire to the
relay. The relay control wire to the switch is 22AWG, and again from same
switch to ground. Shouldn't these wires also be 14AWG? I noticed on the
previous version of the drawing last night, and it shows up in the aux
alternator circuit too.
3) Shouldn't the fuselink feeding the E-bus be located at the feed end (next
to the relay)?.
4) For some reason, I think the relay, load shunt, capacitor, crow bar
components etc for the aux alt circuit should be located on the cockpit side
of the firewall (possibly for a cleaner more cooler environment). Is this
true? Further, the drawing shows the capacitor grounded at the firewall
ground bus. Is there any problem grounding it at the avionics buss instead
which is closer in my current layout?
5) You've got 5X20 AWG wires between the firewall ground and avionics
ground busses. Is this intended to be on the same PIDG connector as shown
or 5 separate connectors? If it's on the same connector, why not just use a
heavier equivalent wire? Say 12AWG.
6) Where can I buy a low voltage module? The one shown doesn't seem to be
on the B and C website.
Thanks,
Bevan
RV7A wiring
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