---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/29/10: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:24 AM - Make Sure You're Listed! (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:04 AM - Audio Amplifier 9009-303 Enclosure (Jared Yates) 2. 05:27 AM - Re: Audio Amplifier 9009-303 Enclosure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 05:27 AM - Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 05:57 AM - Re: Bandwidth? (Mike Welch) 5. 06:11 AM - Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement (Ken) 6. 08:05 AM - Re: Trim tab indicator (user9253) 7. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Bandwidth? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:51 AM - Radio noise (Philip Smith) 9. 09:26 AM - Re: Radio noise (Don Hudgeon) 10. 11:55 AM - Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement (Louie928) 11. 01:30 PM - Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement (Louie928) 12. 05:16 PM - Re: Radio noise (b d) 13. 05:45 PM - Re: Radio noise (b d) 14. 06:07 PM - Re: Radio noise (Ron Quillin) 15. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: Bandwidth? (b d) 16. 06:52 PM - Re: Trim tab indicator (MikeRV6-A) 17. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement (Ken) 18. 07:35 PM - iPod audio mix into headset line (Tim Olson) 19. 08:02 PM - Re: iPod audio mix into headset line (James Robinson) 20. 08:44 PM - Re: iPod audio mix into headset line (Tim Olson) 21. 09:21 PM - Re: iPod audio mix into headset line (Bill Watson) 22. 10:08 PM - Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement (Louie928) 23. 10:32 PM - Re: iPod audio mix into headset line (Tim Olson) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:58 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Make Sure You're Listed! Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner with just two more days in this year's Fund Raiser! Later in December I will post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists this year. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists running and improving! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:23 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Audio Amplifier 9009-303 Enclosure From: Jared Yates Bob, does the metal enclosure that you specify for the do-it-yourself audio amp serve any electrical purpose, or would a plastic enclosure do just as well? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio Amplifier 9009-303 Enclosure At 05:57 AM 11/29/2010, you wrote: > >Bob, does the metal enclosure that you specify for the do-it-yourself >audio amp serve any electrical purpose, or would a plastic enclosure >do just as well? Plastic is okay. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement At 10:13 PM 11/28/2010, you wrote: > >I'm working up the wiring scheme for my Corvair aero engine for my >Zenith 601XLB. I've studied The AeroElectric Connection book and am >incorporating all the great ideas. I think I'll have a good and >reliable system. I decided to use electronic ignition based on the >Ford EDIS-6 system. I'll have an always on (critical) buss that will >power the ignition and fuel pumps. The Facet fuel pumps take about 1 >amp. I have two pumps, but one on at a time. I don't know what >current the EDIS-6 system will take. I need to know what total >current draw the critical buss will require to determine the feed >wire size and fuse link size. Electrically dependent engines should run from a battery bus which is short-coupled to the battery and gets no upstream 'protection' See z-figures. >I'll have a switch to switch between two EDIS ignition systems, but >haven't yet figured a way to reliably use either of two EDIS units >to drive a single 6 pak coil with three primaries. A triple pole >double throw relay should do it, but I'm reluctant to add in a failure point. Have you looked into pairs of steering diodes where either ignition module can drive a single coil? Much more reliable than any switch or relay. Do you know anyone who is running the EDIS system that can conduct an experiment with the diodes to see if it affects operations? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:13 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bandwidth? > 11/29/2010 > > Hello Mike Welch=2C What gives with your computer / email system that it sucks > up just a horrendus amount of Matronics bandwidth / storage space? Mr Baker=2C Hi=2C and thanks for the heads-up. No=2C I didn't know it was doing that . The emails come in normal on my end. Do you have any idea what causes this? If I kne w=2C I'd be happy to avoid the problem. Since this data overload affects the entire Matronics list=2C I'm also po sting the response there=2C too. Plus=2C I also want to find out if it does it again when there is no 'attachment'. If anyone has any idea or knows why my posts have tons of data attached =2C please feel free to suggest a remedy. I suspect the photo image is being converte d into data=2C but that's just a guess on my part. Thanks=2C Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:04 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement For fuse size I look at the resistance of the coils. If one coil driver fails and is continuously ON, then that coil will draw continuous current. Measure the resistance or put a coil primary across a 14 volt source and measure that current. You don't want one failed coil circuit to bring down the system. So I'd use a 15 amp circuit regardless of the normal lower current draw of an EDIS unit. I used high voltage diodes (coil joiners) on the secondaries with a 4 cylinder DIS system. The spark plugs fire with opposite polarity on each side of the coils which complicates this method. 6 cylinders makes it even messier. Frankly I'd recommend a distributor and feed it through two coils via one MSD high voltage coil joiner for your engine. Race cars have done that for years. Run either or both systems simultaneously. You need a feed diode on each system only if they have different power sources. That recommendation is based on my understanding of likely failure modes and dramatic simplification for achieving meaningful redundancy. Most dual ignition systems are far from redundant and complicated schemes have their own risks of physical failure as well as system mis-management. If you don't want a distributor then even better is to look at a separate coil for each spark plug either fed by EDIS or something else. I think you are proposing to run two EDIS electronics and sensors but one coil pack of 3 DIS coils. If that is the intention and the coils are separate from the electronics then I will address some of those issues. This method can quickly turn into a can of worms and you will have to decide what failure modes you wish to cater to. (solid state electronic failure, coil failure, power source failure, wiring failure, all of these) Assume coils mounted separate from the EDIS driver circuitry. I would isolate the EDIS electronics such that a failure of one can't take out the second unit otherwise what's the point of having two units? That implies feeding the switched side of the coils through diodes to each EDIS (6 diodes there). If you do that it suddenly becomes OK to run both systems simultaneously. One single pole power switch for each EDIS unit. This approach should make it just fine to run both simultaneously for takeoff and landing if desired. If you have two power sources then yes feed each EDIS unit through it's own switch from its own power source. This assumes you can power up and run an EDIS system while the engine is already running. The above effectively makes the EDIS electronics (but not the coils) redundant. Next issue is whether you want two sources of power to the +12 volt side of the coils. If so then you can also feed them through diodes from the separately switched and fused circuits feeding the EDIS electronics. But what is the risk that a shorted coil might blow both fuses? Most folks would ignore that I think but if you can maintain flight on two of the three coils, you could feed each coil through a separate fuse. That complicates running separate 12volt sources of power of course. I'm not familiar with the EDIS coil packs. I'd guess that they rarely blow a fuse and it may be reasonable to simply feed all 3 coils from a common 15 amp circuit. If you are new to electronics, note that I would consider properly sized diodes to be as least as reliable as fuses if you can mount them without stressing the leads and allow for a little bit of cooling. And don't neglect ergonomics. On my panel the emergency engine procedure is to put all switches in the UP position period. That feeds the engine with the second set of electronics (EFI and Ignition) fed from a second power source. If I didn't already say it, I run two DIS systems (GM and Subaru) not EDIS. For a new installation I would do a separate coil per spark plug. Ken Louie928 wrote: > > > I'm working up the wiring scheme for my Corvair aero engine for my > Zenith 601XLB. I've studied The AeroElectric Connection book and am > incorporating all the great ideas. I think I'll have a good and > reliable system. I decided to use electronic ignition based on the > Ford EDIS-6 system. I'll have an always on (critical) buss that will > power the ignition and fuel pumps. The Facet fuel pumps take about 1 > amp. I have two pumps, but one on at a time. I don't know what > current the EDIS-6 system will take. I need to know what total > current draw the critical buss will require to determine the feed > wire size and fuse link size. > > I'll have a switch to switch between two EDIS ignition systems, but > haven't yet figured a way to reliably use either of two EDIS units to > drive a single 6 pak coil with three primaries. A triple pole double > throw relay should do it, but I'm reluctant to add in a failure > point. > > Thanks for any help. > > -------- Louis W. Ott > > 601XL beginner Quick Build > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Trim tab indicator From: "user9253" Mike, Keep in mind that I have not built this circuit. Since you are supplying the elevator trim pot with 5vdc and this circuit is designed for a 0 to 5 volt input signal, I would use the fixed resistor values as shown on the schematic. R1 controls the current through the LEDs. With a 12vdc supply, the LED current will be about 10ma. The problem with using a POT is that if adjusted for low ohms, high current could damage the LEDs. A prototyping breadboard makes it easy to experiment with different values of components, if necessary. http://www.mouser.com/images/busboardprototypesystems/lrg/BPS-IMG-BB400.jpg http://www.mouser.com/Tools-Supplies/Prototyping-Products/_/N-5gg5?Keyword=breadboard&FS=True I would try the circuit as is. You might luck out and no calibration will be necessary. One LED should light with the trim at one extreme position and all 10 should light at the other extreme. If it does that, then no calibration is required. I suspect that R2 is the one to change for calibrating. The voltage on pin 6 sets the span. To change from a bar graph to only a single LED on, connect pin 9 to pin 11, not to the supply voltage. Have fun experimenting. Page 110 & 111 of Forrest Mims' ENGINEER'S NOTEBOOK has schematics of the LM3914N. The book also has many other integrated circuit applications. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321598#321598 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:52 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bandwidth? > > If anyone has any idea or knows why my posts have tons of data > attached, please >feel free to suggest a remedy. I suspect the photo image is being >converted into >data, but that's just a guess on my part. I don't see anything "wrong: with your posts. Both attached and embedded images come through and seem to display as one would expect. I HAVE seen the occasional e-mail application that likes to display both and image and the hex data dump that describes that image. If that's what Bob is seeing then I don't think it has anything to do with how you're sending messages. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:10 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio noise From: Philip Smith I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway. I installed an *old* RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is alternator or ignition. Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem? Your valued thoughts please. Phil Smith CH 701 - Flying Buhl, ID ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio noise From: Don Hudgeon G`morning Phil I am having a similar problem with my Kitfox Vixen with a 912UL. My radio is a new ICOM A210. I have installed one capacitor on the output from the voltage regulator. This helped but the problem still there but not where I would like it. None of my wiring is shielded and I am wondering if this would help. I hope this topic is of interest to the group. I look forward to ALL suggestions. Don Hudgeon Kitfox Vixen Summerland,BC Canada On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Philip Smith wrote: > I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway. I installed > an *old* RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it > is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is > alternator or ignition. Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated > that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when > used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem? Your > valued thoughts please. > > Phil Smith > CH 701 - Flying > Buhl, ID > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement From: "Louie928" nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > Electrically dependent engines should run > from a battery bus which is short-coupled > to the battery and gets no upstream 'protection' > See z-figures. I looked at and try to conform to the Z figures where applicable. The problem is that it'll be near impossible to keep the "always on" buss (shown as Main Battery buss on Z-13/8 ) as short as 6". I could put that buss fuse block on the firewall and run the fuse protected circuits through to the instrument panel and switches. I'd rather have the Main Battery buss in the cockpit where I can observe the fuses. Doing that means feeding the Main Battery buss through either a fuse or a fuse link so I don't have unlimited current source in the cockpit. If doing that is thought to be troublesome, I can mount the Main Battery buss distribution block on the engine side of the firewall and not have access to the fuses in flight. > > Have you looked into pairs of steering diodes > where either ignition module can drive a > single coil? Much more reliable than any > switch or relay. Do you know anyone who > is running the EDIS system that can conduct > an experiment with the diodes to see if it > affects operations? > I think I can isolate one EDIS control unit from the other with diodes. I don't know of anyone who has done it. Looks like I'll need to experiment with the diodes and see what happens. I'll do this on the ground on a test stand. -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321633#321633 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement From: "Louie928" klehman(at)albedo.net wrote: > For fuse size I look at the resistance of the coils. If one coil driver > fails and is continuously ON, then that coil will draw continuous > current. Measure the resistance or put a coil primary across a 14 volt > source and measure that current. You don't want one failed coil circuit > to bring down the system. So I'd use a 15 amp circuit regardless of the > normal lower current draw of an EDIS unit. > > > > I think you are proposing to run two EDIS electronics and sensors but > one coil pack of 3 DIS coils. If that is the intention and the coils are > separate from the electronics then I will address some of those issues. > This method can quickly turn into a can of worms and you will have to > decide what failure modes you wish to cater to. (solid state electronic > failure, coil failure, power source failure, wiring failure, all of these) > > Assume coils mounted separate from the EDIS driver circuitry. I would > isolate the EDIS electronics such that a failure of one can't take out > the second unit otherwise what's the point of having two units? That > implies feeding the switched side of the coils through diodes to each > EDIS (6 diodes there). If you do that it suddenly becomes OK to run both > systems simultaneously. One single pole power switch for each EDIS unit. > This approach should make it just fine to run both simultaneously for > takeoff and landing if desired. If you have two power sources then yes > feed each EDIS unit through it's own switch from its own power source. > This assumes you can power up and run an EDIS system while the engine is > already running. > > The above effectively makes the EDIS electronics (but not the coils) > redundant. Next issue is whether you want two sources of power to the > +12 volt side of the coils. If so then you can also feed them through > diodes from the separately switched and fused circuits feeding the EDIS > electronics. But what is the risk that a shorted coil might blow both > fuses? Most folks would ignore that I think but if you can maintain > flight on two of the three coils, you could feed each coil through a > separate fuse. That complicates running separate 12volt sources of power > of course. I'm not familiar with the EDIS coil packs. I'd guess that > they rarely blow a fuse and it may be reasonable to simply feed all 3 > coils from a common 15 amp circuit. > > If you are new to electronics, note that I would consider properly sized > diodes to be as least as reliable as fuses if you can mount them without > stressing the leads and allow for a little bit of cooling. > > And don't neglect ergonomics. On my panel the emergency engine procedure > is to put all switches in the UP position period. That feeds the engine > with the second set of electronics (EFI and Ignition) fed from a second > power source. > > If I didn't already say it, I run two DIS systems (GM and Subaru) not > EDIS. For a new installation I would do a separate coil per spark plug. > > Ken Hi Ken, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I didn't want to use the Corvair distributor with 2 point sets and dual coils with coil combiners to try and save some weight. Also, I wanted to modernize the system and try something different. With the EDIS, I can set timing using a laptop. I have a dyno for tuning the engine, and I'm used to working with these things. I am not used to designing redundant electronic ignition systems and figuring that part out. Here is a link to some EDIS information. http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm I won't use the Megasquirt for timing control, but I'll use something similar for ignition timing only. The fuel will be by Rotec TBI-40 carb. Sizing the fuse and buss feed wire size using the coil primary resistance is a good idea. The three coil primaries measure 1.2 ohms each so worst case would be about 10 amps draw. Your suggestion of a 15A fuse is right on. The coil pack is separate from the control unit although on the automotive wiring diagram the coil is powered in parallel with the EDIS control unit +12V feed. I will have a +12V source for the coil and separate switched +12V for each control unit. I do plan on a separate crank sensor and EDIS control unit operating a single coil pack. The coil packs are quite reliable and even if one coil failed and I lost two cylinders, the plane would still remain flyable depending on conditions. The coil pack is really three separate double ended "dumb" coils in one potted enclosure. I could use six "coil near plug" units, but that would be heavier than the 6 pak. The plus side of CNP is that if one secondary failed, I'd only lose one cylinder rather than two. Coil on plug units don't lend themselves well to the Corvair engine due to the placement of the spark plugs. The COP would stick up too high and too far to the outside. Using diodes to isolate the EDIS control unit outputs may work just fine and it would allow use of both units at the same time. Depending on the EDIS coil drivers, It may be possible to simply connect the coil driver outputs in parallel to the coils. I had hoped someone may have been down this road before. I'm thinking I had better make a test setup using a 36-1 crank trigger wheel, 2 sensors, 2 EDIS units and a single coil pack. Set it up and run it steady for a few weeks and see what happens. Two questions. Do you know of a CNP unit that is a simple "dumb" coil? The Chevy LS1 coils I've worked with are "smart" coils that trigger with a +5 volt pulse. These don't work with a control unit like the EDIS. Which GM DIS system do you use? Do you have redundant control systems, or single thread? I have all the parts for the EDIS, but it isn't too late to switch systems. Thanks again. -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321639#321639 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio noise From: b d You might disable the alternator by lifting the field wire and eleminate one or the other. It is most likely ignition noise (high volatage side). Do you have shielded wires? In series or in parallel? Series doesn't sound right but then I don't know if you are saying what I think you are saying. Series would not allow any current to flow on a DC circuit hense the radio would not work. Parallel would essentially filter out the unwanted noise sending it to ground. I should leave my 2 cents out. I don't know, I'm only guessing so don't follow me. It's only a thought. Bruce On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Philip Smith wrote: > I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway. I installed > an *old* RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" it > is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is > alternator or ignition. Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated > that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when > used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem? Your > valued thoughts please. > > Phil Smith > CH 701 - Flying > Buhl, ID > > * > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio noise From: b d I need to qualify what I said. There are two potential sources in the radio, (if the radio is the device in question) 1. Noise on the power lead. This can be filtered out out power input with a parallel capacitor. 2. Electro Static noise through the antennae caused by high voltage radiation from the high voltage side of the ignition system e.g. coil, high voltage spark plug leads and so on. I just seen some shielded wires and covers for Experimental type engine running regular plugs. I will see if I can find them and include in another post. I would try to identify and isolate the noise first. You may find you have some noise from both sources. As you isolate the problem you have a better chance of fixing it and testing to see if you fixed it. There may be some other device to blame. **** First try with the radio with the master on with no engine running to eliminate any non-engine devices. Next easiest: To Isolate the antennae as a source, try grounding it with a alligator clip wire (test lead) to ground. (do not transmit during this test) This should make a noticeable reduction or eliminate completely the radio noise if it's radiation noise from the high voltage ignition. This may be the quickest and easiest method to isolate one source from the other. Simply ground the antennae. Third (not difficult): If you still have noise, disable the alternator next, do you still have the same noise . . . .I hope not . . Let me know how you come out. Once you establish the source(s) of the noise, then it's easier to filter it out with caps and so on. Hope this helps. Bruce On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 5:10 PM, b d wrote: > You might disable the alternator by lifting the field wire and eleminate > one or the other. It is most likely ignition noise (high volatage side). Do > you have shielded wires? > > In series or in parallel? Series doesn't sound right but then I don't know > if you are saying what I think you are saying. Series would not allow any > current to flow on a DC circuit hense the radio would not work. Parallel > would essentially filter out the unwanted noise sending it to ground. > > I should leave my 2 cents out. I don't know, I'm only guessing so don't > follow me. It's only a thought. > > Bruce > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Philip Smith wrote: > >> I know this has been discussed before but like to ask anyway. I installed >> an *old* RST 360 com radio in my 701 panel and when I start the "Rotax" >> it is very noisy. Seems to be a whine don't know whether or not this is >> alternator or ignition. Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated >> that you must install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when >> used with the Rotax engine installation. Will this cure the problem? Your >> valued thoughts please. >> >> Phil Smith >> CH 701 - Flying >> Buhl, ID >> >> * >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:40 PM PST US From: Ron Quillin Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio noise At 08:47 11/29/2010, you wrote: >Saw a wiring diagram for another radio which stated that you must >install a 22,000uf capacitor in series on the 12v feed when used >with the Rotax engine installation. As no one else commented on what seems to be a typo or misunderstanding of terms... That capacitor would be parallel; that is the positive terminal to your buss, and the negative terminal to airframe or whatever you are using for a "ground". For a component to be in "series", the load current would flow through the component in series; clearly for DC and a capacitor, this would not work. Were it a coil, inductor, series would be the proper configuration. Ron Q. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bandwidth? From: b d Mike and Mr. Baker, I maybe talking out of turn but I'll add my 2 cnets and let you guys decide if it helps. I just went around the world with my cable company accusing them of not providing me with the bandwidth that I was paying for> They had me do a short test that proved to them that I was getting my full speed (at least during that short test). I wasn't satisfied so I searched for and found a tool to help me. It was inexpensive. Cisco Speed meter pro http://www.purenetworks.com/product/speedmeterpro/ $39 and with a free trial. I like it and it proves my point, There are times through out the day that my bandwidth is very limited. I came from a time in computers when they used to sell "time sharing" and a subscriber would have a certain time slot in which to do his heavy business. We are back to tthat again but paying for 24 hour connection with varying bandwidth. My wife tells me she has to wait for her computer to "warm up" (like the old vaccuum tube systems) :-) What she experiences is some of MS Junk's tricks where the computer is going out and picking up more third party junk to sell us plus no doubt the internet provider, in my case COX is shedding some of their connections to make it appear like the new user has a good bandwidth (for awhile until someone else logs onand bumps you down). Do any of you remember the old dial in modem systems where the owner would over sell the clients but when they all began logging on, he newest would bump the oldest, or I was told that anyway and it seemed that way. Try out the speedmeter pro and see if it helps inform you of what's going on. It won't fix it but it will give you good data to begin the fix. Bruce On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 5:51 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > > 11/29/2010 > > > > Hello Mike Welch, What gives with your computer / email system that it > sucks > > up just a horrendus amount of Matronics bandwidth / storage space? > > Mr Baker, > > Hi, and thanks for the heads-up. No, I didn't know it was doing that. > The emails > come in normal on my end. Do you have any idea what causes this? If I > knew, > I'd be happy to avoid the problem. > > Since this data overload affects the entire Matronics list, I'm also > posting the > response there, too. Plus, I also want to find out if it does it again > when there is no > 'attachment'. > > If anyone has any idea or knows why my posts have tons of data attached, > please > feel free to suggest a remedy. I suspect the photo image is being > converted into > data, but that's just a guess on my part. > > Thanks, Mike Welch > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:36 PM PST US From: "MikeRV6-A" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Trim tab indicator Hi Mike, here is another comment about your trim indicator: Regarding your question about the LED connections, the LM3914 LED connection is sometimes referred to as "common anode", and it is widely used in LED display devices. The LM3914 has two modes of operation: In "bar" mode, increasing voltage at the input (pin 5) will light first a single LED, then two LEDs, then three, then four, and so on, up to full scale in which all ten LEDs are "on". In "dot" mode, only a single LED is lit: The first one, or the second one, or the third one, etc. Bar/Dot mode is controlled by pin 9, and pin 9 is connected to the supply voltage to set Bar mode. If you want to use dot mode, then just leave pin 9 unconnected. There is a power limitation to consider if you use bar mode. If your common-anode LED power supply voltage is 12-14 volts, and voltage across the LED is typically about 2 volts, then the remaining voltage, perhaps 10 to 12 volts, is imposed upon the LM3914 drive circuits. If LED current is programmed for 10 milliamps, then power in the LM3914 due to LED operation is about: (ten LEDs) times (ten milliamps) times (twelve volts) = 1.2 Watts. This is high enough power dissipation to cause significant temperature rise in the LM3914. If you choose to use bar mode, then you can reduce power dissipation in the LM3914 by reducing LED anode voltage, perhaps using your +5V power supply for both LM3914 power and LED power. Another way to achieve this goal is by adding a resistor between each LM3914 drive pin and its respective LED cathode. Resistors of about 560 or 620 Ohms would reduce the power in the LM3914 by about half. The LM3914 will still function in bar or dot mode with this change, just as it will if LED voltage is taken from your +5V. Mike Linse RV-6A builder Corvallis, OR ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:45 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement Louie928 wrote: > > > > klehman(at)albedo.net wrote: >> For fuse size I look at the resistance of the coils. If one coil >> driver fails and is continuously ON, then that coil will draw >> continuous current. Measure the resistance or put a coil primary >> across a 14 volt source and measure that current. You don't want >> one failed coil circuit to bring down the system. So I'd use a 15 >> amp circuit regardless of the normal lower current draw of an EDIS >> unit. >> >> >> >> I think you are proposing to run two EDIS electronics and sensors >> but one coil pack of 3 DIS coils. If that is the intention and the >> coils are separate from the electronics then I will address some of >> those issues. This method can quickly turn into a can of worms and >> you will have to decide what failure modes you wish to cater to. >> (solid state electronic failure, coil failure, power source >> failure, wiring failure, all of these) >> >> Assume coils mounted separate from the EDIS driver circuitry. I >> would isolate the EDIS electronics such that a failure of one can't >> take out the second unit otherwise what's the point of having two >> units? That implies feeding the switched side of the coils through >> diodes to each EDIS (6 diodes there). If you do that it suddenly >> becomes OK to run both systems simultaneously. One single pole >> power switch for each EDIS unit. This approach should make it just >> fine to run both simultaneously for takeoff and landing if desired. >> If you have two power sources then yes feed each EDIS unit through >> it's own switch from its own power source. This assumes you can >> power up and run an EDIS system while the engine is already >> running. >> >> The above effectively makes the EDIS electronics (but not the >> coils) redundant. Next issue is whether you want two sources of >> power to the +12 volt side of the coils. If so then you can also >> feed them through diodes from the separately switched and fused >> circuits feeding the EDIS electronics. But what is the risk that a >> shorted coil might blow both fuses? Most folks would ignore that I >> think but if you can maintain flight on two of the three coils, >> you could feed each coil through a separate fuse. That complicates >> running separate 12volt sources of power of course. I'm not >> familiar with the EDIS coil packs. I'd guess that they rarely blow >> a fuse and it may be reasonable to simply feed all 3 coils from a >> common 15 amp circuit. >> >> If you are new to electronics, note that I would consider properly >> sized diodes to be as least as reliable as fuses if you can mount >> them without stressing the leads and allow for a little bit of >> cooling. >> >> And don't neglect ergonomics. On my panel the emergency engine >> procedure is to put all switches in the UP position period. That >> feeds the engine with the second set of electronics (EFI and >> Ignition) fed from a second power source. >> >> If I didn't already say it, I run two DIS systems (GM and Subaru) >> not EDIS. For a new installation I would do a separate coil per >> spark plug. >> >> Ken > > > > Hi Ken, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I didn't want to use the > Corvair distributor with 2 point sets and dual coils with coil > combiners to try and save some weight. Also, I wanted to modernize > the system and try something different. With the EDIS, I can set > timing using a laptop. I have a dyno for tuning the engine, and I'm > used to working with these things. I am not used to designing > redundant electronic ignition systems and figuring that part out. > > Here is a link to some EDIS information. > http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html > http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm > > I won't use the Megasquirt for timing control, but I'll use something > similar for ignition timing only. The fuel will be by Rotec TBI-40 > carb. > > Sizing the fuse and buss feed wire size using the coil primary > resistance is a good idea. The three coil primaries measure 1.2 ohms > each so worst case would be about 10 amps draw. Your suggestion of a > 15A fuse is right on. The coil pack is separate from the control unit > although on the automotive wiring diagram the coil is powered in > parallel with the EDIS control unit +12V feed. I will have a +12V > source for the coil and separate switched +12V for each control unit. > I do plan on a separate crank sensor and EDIS control unit operating > a single coil pack. The coil packs are quite reliable and even if > one coil failed and I lost two cylinders, the plane would still > remain flyable depending on conditions. > > The coil pack is really three separate double ended "dumb" coils in > one potted enclosure. I could use six "coil near plug" units, but > that would be heavier than the 6 pak. The plus side of CNP is that if > one secondary failed, I'd only lose one cylinder rather than two. > Coil on plug units don't lend themselves well to the Corvair engine > due to the placement of the spark plugs. The COP would stick up too > high and too far to the outside. > > Using diodes to isolate the EDIS control unit outputs may work just > fine and it would allow use of both units at the same time. Depending > on the EDIS coil drivers, It may be possible to simply connect the > coil driver outputs in parallel to the coils. > > I had hoped someone may have been down this road before. I'm thinking > I had better make a test setup using a 36-1 crank trigger wheel, 2 > sensors, 2 EDIS units and a single coil pack. Set it up and run it > steady for a few weeks and see what happens. > > Two questions. Do you know of a CNP unit that is a simple "dumb" > coil? The Chevy LS1 coils I've worked with are "smart" coils that > trigger with a +5 volt pulse. These don't work with a control unit > like the EDIS. Which GM DIS system do you use? Do you have redundant > control systems, or single thread? I have all the parts for the EDIS, > but it isn't too late to switch systems. > > Thanks again. > > -------- Louis W. Ott > > 601XL beginner Quick Build > Louis Actually the only GM DIS coil failure that I've had only failed one spark plug! There tends to be enough capacitance in the circuit that pulling one spark plug lead or open circuiting one side of the coil does not necessarily stop the other plug from firing. And 6 cylinders gives you a better situation than my 4 cylinder engine should you lose one coil. I would guess that the EDIS uses the typical open collector driver. If the LS1 coils need a 5 volt signal you could likely just use a resistor divider circuit to match them to the EDIS driver. Add a transistor if the logic needs to be reversed. Alternatively I'm told that there are a number of dumb Coil Near Plug units used on many power sport engines but I don't have part numbers. But I see no reason why your dual EDIS hardware that you already have would not be satisfactory especially if you are already familiar with it. I doubt that there is any weight savings compared to a distributor or CNP units though. Personally I would put in the ability to feed the coils as well as the EDIS units from two power sources. It is not just two power sources but also two independent wiring circuits that comforts me. ie also cater to a bad/corroded connection or switch or shorted wire. Diodes between the coils and the EDIS drivers would have to be able to tolerate several hundred volt spikes of course. I used a 4 cylinder Chev Cavalier coil pack and module for my second ignition. A MegaSquirt 2 runs a second set of MPFI injectors. At that time, MS did not have an ignition option like it does now. Those are backup systems running off a second electrical system (z-14). All the electronics run all the time off hot battery busses but I normally only feed +12volts to one set of injectors and one set of ignition coils at a time. Dual DIS ignitions are rare. NSI did some based on aftermarket ecu's but their HV joiners were not very robust. I'm not aware of any dual EDIS installations. Ken ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:00 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: AeroElectric-List: iPod audio mix into headset line I thought I'd ask for a bit of help on this mini-project I am going to try to tackle. My goal is to be able to take my standard Bose X headsets, and splice in at jack point in the rear seats, so that I can mix an ipod audio signal into the headset audio. Sounds pretty simple, but... With the impedance mismatch between the ipod (I think 32 or 36 ohms) and the headset (what is it, 300?) you would get only quiet audio. I checked by plugging the headset with an adapter directly into the ipod and it just was too quiet. I did a little digging into simple mixer circuits with 10K resistors only, to combine the audio, and I'm guessing that would work, if the ipod was just amp'd up a bit. One thing I am NOT concerned with, is auto-muting of music, or anything like that. This is for rear-seat only, for the kids. I want them to each be able to plug in their ipod into an armrest jack, and hear their own individual music in the headset. Right now, they can plug into the intercom's input #2, and get the SAME music, but I want them to have the option to get DIFFERENT music than the other. I do want it to be Stereo, too. So what I really am thinking I need to come up with is a simple amp/mixer circuit that would perhaps impedance match, or perhaps just amplify the ipod audio and then mix it in. To make it even more fun, once I get far enough that I know this works, I'm going to plug a bluetooth audio interface into that jack, and that way they can just pair their ipod touch with the bluetooth module and go wire-free. So does anyone have any good advice on the circuit to accomplish this? FWIW, I'd be looking at the BluLink thing, but I really don't want something big, and expensive, banging around on the headset cord, getting in the way...and since it's an experimental, I can simply build it right into the arm rest. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:41 PM PST US From: James Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod audio mix into headset line Hi Tim it is to bad you didn't go with Lightspeed. They allow a IPod directly into the controler or by bluetooth I think. I plug my ipod nano directly into mine and it works great. Jim James Robinson Glasair lll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 ________________________________ From: Tim Olson Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 8:28:58 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: iPod audio mix into headset line I thought I'd ask for a bit of help on this mini-project I am going to try to tackle. My goal is to be able to take my standard Bose X headsets, and splice in at jack point in the rear seats, so that I can mix an ipod audio signal into the headset audio. Sounds pretty simple, but... With the impedance mismatch between the ipod (I think 32 or 36 ohms) and the headset (what is it, 300?) you would get only quiet audio. I checked by plugging the headset with an adapter directly into the ipod and it just was too quiet. I did a little digging into simple mixer circuits with 10K resistors only, to combine the audio, and I'm guessing that would work, if the ipod was just amp'd up a bit. One thing I am NOT concerned with, is auto-muting of music, or anything like that. This is for rear-seat only, for the kids. I want them to each be able to plug in their ipod into an armrest jack, and hear their own individual music in the headset. Right now, they can plug into the intercom's input #2, and get the SAME music, but I want them to have the option to get DIFFERENT music than the other. I do want it to be Stereo, too. So what I really am thinking I need to come up with is a simple amp/mixer circuit that would perhaps impedance match, or perhaps just amplify the ipod audio and then mix it in. To make it even more fun, once I get far enough that I know this works, I'm going to plug a bluetooth audio interface into that jack, and that way they can just pair their ipod touch with the bluetooth module and go wire-free. So does anyone have any good advice on the circuit to accomplish this? FWIW, I'd be looking at the BluLink thing, but I really don't want something big, and expensive, banging around on the headset cord, getting in the way...and since it's an experimental, I can simply build it right into the arm rest. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:09 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod audio mix into headset line Actually, that's the sad thing. I have 5 Bose X's, and ordered two Bose A20's to get the music input (wired only). Then I decided that even though I know I love the Bose best, I better re-visit Lightspeed Zulu's. These are for the kids, BTW, so small heads for sure. Even myself, I wear them at their smallest setting, since I'm a pea-brained guy. Anyway, we had the kids try the Zulu's on. They were too big. But, then I heard about the thicker head pad, and got one on the way. I ordered a Zulu, and got it last week. This weekend I got out for a test flight. That's where my plans all fell apart. Up to that point, I was happy to just buy 2 pairs of Zulu's for the kids, and be done with it. The problem is, when I compared the Zulu's to my Bose X's, which are supposed to be inferior to the A20's, I was very very disappointed. The Zulu's were AWESOME for music via bluetooth. I was thrilled with that. But, on the ground I noticed one thing...the audio is higher pitched more "tinny" on the Zulu's. Then, the real disturbing thing...the in-flight test. On ground taxi, the cabin noise was much louder, both the low rumble, and the higher pitched rattles. In climbout, the Zulu's were far noisier...in all respects. So much so that the audio music took more volume just to hear it well. (that said, the bluetooth volume can be made nice and loud) But, they were very loud. In cruse...same thing. The zulu's just didn't hold a candle to my Bose X's. I was super upset, because I was hoping that the Zulu's would dig me out of having to do all this work. If Bose would have only come out with A2DP streaming music input in the A20's I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but man, what a stupid mistake they made by not doing it...a dedicated guy with 5 pairs who'd gladly buy 2 more, and they don't actually make a product that can compete in features? The fit and clamping pressure is great with the Zulu's, and I can get a bit better noise reduction if I hold the earcups tightly on my head, but even if I ordered their thicker earpads, that's not really a solution...even with them held tight, they still weren't as quiet. In fact, my wife thought the difference was so stark she told me "OH, did you forget to power them on?!?!", and sadly, I hadn't forgotten. So yeah, the Zulu's would be a great solution, but having actually ran them head-to-head, I can't sacrifice that much on noise reduction and be happy. Even passive noise reduction wasn't really much different than the X's. I got the impression that when you read magazine reviews on these headsets that it's either VERY VERY VERY perfect fit oriented, or that the reviewers don't want to lose advertising revenue, because I really didn't find them to be nearly as equal as all the reviews would indicate. I may call them tomorrow to see if there is anything that can be tweaked to fix it. Had they fit like Bose, and sounded like Bose, I'd have bought another pair in a heartbeat and I wouldn't be asking for this circuit. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 11/29/2010 9:58 PM, James Robinson wrote: > Hi Tim > it is to bad you didn't go with Lightspeed. They allow a IPod directly > into the controler or by bluetooth I think. I plug my ipod nano directly > into mine and it works great. > > Jim > James Robinson > Glasair lll N79R > Spanish Fork UT U77 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Tim Olson > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 8:28:58 PM > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: iPod audio mix into headset line > > > > > I thought I'd ask for a bit of help on this mini-project I > am going to try to tackle. > > My goal is to be able to take my standard Bose X headsets, > and splice in at jack point in the rear seats, so that I > can mix an ipod audio signal into the headset audio. Sounds > pretty simple, but... > > With the impedance mismatch between the ipod (I think 32 or > 36 ohms) and the headset (what is it, 300?) you would get only > quiet audio. I checked by plugging the headset with an > adapter directly into the ipod and it just was too quiet. > > I did a little digging into simple mixer circuits with > 10K resistors only, to combine the audio, and I'm guessing > that would work, if the ipod was just amp'd up a bit. > > One thing I am NOT concerned with, is auto-muting of > music, or anything like that. This is for rear-seat > only, for the kids. I want them to each be able > to plug in their ipod into an armrest jack, and hear > their own individual music in the headset. Right now, > they can plug into the intercom's input #2, and get the > SAME music, but I want them to have the option to > get DIFFERENT music than the other. I do want it to be > Stereo, too. > > So what I really am thinking I need to come up with is a > simple amp/mixer circuit that would perhaps impedance > match, or perhaps just amplify the ipod audio and then > mix it in. > > To make it even more fun, once I get far enough that > I know this works, I'm going to plug a bluetooth > audio interface into that jack, and that way they can > just pair their ipod touch with the bluetooth module > and go wire-free. > > So does anyone have any good advice on the circuit to > accomplish this? FWIW, I'd be > > * > > * ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:43 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod audio mix into headset line So does that all net out to, "they aren't as good as the Bose (x)? Bill "with 4 of 'em now" Watson > Had they fit like Bose, > and sounded like Bose, I'd have bought another pair > in a heartbeat and I wouldn't be asking for this circuit. > > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:51 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ford EDIS-6 current requirement From: "Louie928" klehman(at)albedo.net wrote: > > > Actually the only GM DIS coil failure that I've had only failed one > spark plug! There tends to be enough capacitance in the circuit that > pulling one spark plug lead or open circuiting one side of the coil does > not necessarily stop the other plug from firing. And 6 cylinders gives > you a better situation than my 4 cylinder engine should you lose one coil. > > I would guess that the EDIS uses the typical open collector driver. If > the LS1 coils need a 5 volt signal you could likely just use a resistor > divider circuit to match them to the EDIS driver. Add a transistor if > the logic needs to be reversed. Alternatively I'm told that there are a > number of dumb Coil Near Plug units used on many power sport engines but > I don't have part numbers. > > But I see no reason why your dual EDIS hardware that you already have > would not be satisfactory especially if you are already familiar with > it. I doubt that there is any weight savings compared to a distributor > or CNP units though. Personally I would put in the ability to feed the > coils as well as the EDIS units from two power sources. > It is not just two power sources but also two independent > wiring circuits that comforts me. ie also cater to a bad/corroded > connection or switch or shorted wire. Diodes between the coils and the > EDIS drivers would have to be able to tolerate several hundred volt > spikes of course. > > I used a 4 cylinder Chev Cavalier coil pack and module for my second > ignition. A MegaSquirt 2 runs a second set of MPFI injectors. At that > time, MS did not have an ignition option like it does now. Those are > backup systems running off a second electrical system (z-14). All the > electronics run all the time off hot battery busses but I normally only > feed +12volts to one set of injectors and one set of ignition coils at a > time. Dual DIS ignitions are rare. NSI did some based on aftermarket > ecu's but their HV joiners were not very robust. I'm not aware of any > dual EDIS installations. > > Ken Thanks for the information. The two separate power sources sounds like a good idea too. You are right. It does get complicated. -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321683#321683 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:59 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod audio mix into headset line Sadly, yes, at least in my opinion. I'm sure that since fit can be a factor, and so can type of engine, frequency of noise, and that sort of thing, that opinions will vary. To me, the price doesn't factor in at all...I'd rather spend a couple hundred more for a better product. I'm actually really ticked at Bose for not having A2DP in their Bluetooth. It would be so stone simple for them to add. There are really only 2 or 3 things that aren't performance related, that I don't like about the Zulu's, and they don't matter much. 1) They're not black. (I want dark colors in the cockpit so I don't get reflections on the window in my photos). 2) They're a bit, not a ton, wider and larger than the Bose. (beats the heck out of the old ugly-wide lightspeeds) 3) They're a made-in-china product. (this one actually matters a little more to me... these days I really want to see some US based jobs stay here) Other than that, it's almost purely performance that makes me want the Bose. To nitpick the Bose, the X's (not the A20's) 1) clamp a little tight compared to Zulu's, 2) have earcups that are on the small side (although I can open them up by pulling the seal out a bit when donning them), 3) don't have that stinkin' A2DP bluetooth. So today I guess, there simply is no perfect headset for me. If I can get this audio mix + amp circuit hooked in with my bluetooth adapter though, I'll be very satisfied in the end. If Pilot Avionics only made a panel-mount Blulink module instead of a dongle, I'd just buy that, too, but at $300 for the Lemo version, I know I cab build something in that will work for what I need. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 11/29/2010 11:18 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > So does that all net out to, "they aren't as good as the Bose (x)? > > Bill "with 4 of 'em now" Watson > >> Had they fit like Bose, >> and sounded like Bose, I'd have bought another pair >> in a heartbeat and I wouldn't be asking for this circuit. >> >> >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.