---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/07/10: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:03 AM - Re: Intermittent Generator (Dennis Johnson) 2. 06:05 AM - Re: Intermittent Alternator (Dennis Johnson) 3. 07:57 AM - Re: Aux alt. ground (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:57 AM - Re: Avionics ground bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: Avionics ground bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Intermittent Generator (Neal George) 7. 10:02 AM - Music isolation advice (Tim Olson) 8. 11:03 AM - G530 TX Issue () 9. 11:22 AM - Re: G530 TX Issue (Tim Perry) 10. 01:39 PM - Re: G530 TX Issue (Charlie England) 11. 01:39 PM - Re: Music isolation advice (Peter Pengilly) 12. 01:41 PM - Key Switch & LSE Ignition (Sue Dehnert) 13. 02:14 PM - Re: Music isolation advice (Tim Olson) 14. 02:21 PM - Noise in headset from Map496 (Marty) 15. 02:33 PM - Re: Music isolation advice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 02:50 PM - Re: Intermittent Generator Problem (Noel Loveys) 17. 03:06 PM - Re: Music isolation advice (Tim Olson) 18. 09:05 PM - Water temp sensor ground (Paul Kuntz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:35 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Intermittent Generator Hi Neal, A diode failure in the alternator was my first thought, too. But when the alternator healed itself and returned to normal function a few minutes later, I wasn't so sure. Is it likely that a diode would fail intermittently? I listened to Mike Busch's webinar on alternators last night http://www.savvymx.com/index.php/webinar and he said an intermittent problem was likely something to do with the brushes, which was my guess after my alternator healed itself. Thanks for the help, Dennis Time: 01:05:14 PM PST US From: "Neal George" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem I suspect you're losing an output diode in the alternator. neal From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 9:59 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem While on a cross country flight last week, I got a low voltage indication in my Lancair Legacy, wired using Z 13-8. I turned on the SD-8 aux alternator and the voltage increased to the low end of the normal range. I also noticed a whine sound in my headset. If I turned off the main alternator, the whine went away but the voltage sagged. (I have an all electric airplane and the SD-8 won't carry the full load unless I shed loads, turn the master switch off, and run on the E-bus.) I turned the main alternator back on and the whine sound in my headset returned and the voltage returned to the low end of the normal range. I flew that way for about 15 minutes and the whine suddenly stopped and voltage jumped up to normal. I turned off the aux alternator and completed the flight normally. Everything was perfectly normal for the two hour flight home. Any ideas what caused this? Since the first symptom was reduced output and a whine in the headset, I initially suspected failed diodes inside the alternator, but when it healed itself, I thought it might have been a brush problem inside the alternator. After 15 minutes, whatever was causing poor brush contact went away? I'm grasping at straws here. I am so thankful for Bob's Z 13-8 architecture, which allowed me to continue the flight without breaking a sweat! Thanks, Bob! Supporting information: Lancair Legacy, Continental IO-550 engine, 12 volt gear-driven main alternator, SD-8 permanent magnet aux alternator, Z 13-8 architecture, all electric panel. Dennis Johnson ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:55 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Intermittent Alternator Hi David, Thanks for the tip about the hairline crack in your stator wiring. I hope my problem isn't something that hard to diagnose. Dennis Time: 02:39:46 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem About intermittent alternators..... Once I had to chase a mystery problem. Alternator would go off line, later come on line. I later chased down a hairline crack in the stationary stator windings in the case where it entered a swaging boss. When the alt. go hot, the hairline crack would open and after the alt. cooled a little the wire would make continuity and charge again. I suspect that the heavy wire was damaged during manufacture and would not show up until the alt. put under heavy loads in hot conditions. I had to use a magnifying glass to finally view the crack..... If it is not diodes, then look for this stator wire problem. David ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aux alt. ground At 05:56 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote: >Bob, > >Is there a suggested wire size (or rule of thumb) for the ground >coming off the aux alt. capacitor in Z-131/8 Rev. R ? > >Thanks Same size as the wires connected to the other end. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics ground bus Some parts on order for the first production batch will be here tomorrow. I'm about 1/3 completed with the instruction manual. I'll put it up on the website catalog and order form tomorrow. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics ground bus At 09:55 AM 12/7/2010, you wrote: > > >Some parts on order for the first production batch will >be here tomorrow. I'm about 1/3 completed with the >instruction manual. I'll put it up on the website >catalog and order form tomorrow. Scratch that. I modified the html for the catalog and put it up on the server to test . . . but forgot to put it away when I was finished. Orders are already showing up so I'll leave it alone. Interested individuals can place an order for the 37-pin ground bus at their convenience. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:01 AM PST US From: "Neal George" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Intermittent Generator Several possibilities, Dennis, Assuming you've checked the belt for proper tension, and given your description of the circumstances, all the ones I can imagine indicate a heat component. David makes a good point regarding case cracks & conductor breaks that open up as the unit reaches operating temps, then close as it cools. Every component in the case is subject to that failure mode. You didn't say how long between take-off and low-voltage indication - still in the climb with lights, pitot heat, gear actuators running, drawing max loads down low where it's relatively warmer OAT? Or high cruise, cooler OAT and "normal" steady-state loads? When the voltage sagged, where did it stabilize before you enabled the SD-8 - 10.8v? 11.5v? 12.3v? You reported a whine and sagging voltage - the low end of normal with both the SD-8 and main alt running. Folks who know a lot more about alternators than I have told me that a failing diode pack will often generate enough electrical noise to manifest as a whine in the audio system. I expect arcing/chattering brushes could generate similar noise. Bob teaches that our GA alternators are predominately 3-phase devices. If you lose one of the three output legs, your alternator can still deliver energy, but it won't be full rated power. You reported that with the SD-8 running, bringing the main alt back on line raised the bus voltage to the low end of the normal range. This indicates that the main alt was contributing some power, but not enough to carry the load. A weak field could also manifest as a low voltage. A loose field connector, faulty wire, failing switch/breaker, dirty/worn/contaminated brushes & rings are all possible culprits. I believe I'd start by checking the ship's alternator circuits for loose/corroded connections, then pull the alternator for a trip to the local automotive starter & alternator repair house for some bench testing. neal ============= Hi Neal, A diode failure in the alternator was my first thought, too. But when the alternator healed itself and returned to normal function a few minutes later, I wasn't so sure. Is it likely that a diode would fail intermittently? I listened to Mike Busch's webinar on alternators last night http://www.savvymx.com/index.php/webinar and he said an intermittent problem was likely something to do with the brushes, which was my guess after my alternator healed itself. Thanks for the help, Dennis ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:53 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Music isolation advice Attached is a .jpg to best explain this.... I'm mixing audio into the headset cord, basically. In the end I will be doing something for both rear seats, so they have independent music. Today though I realized something after looking at my audio panel (PMA8000) wiring info... All of the rear seat jacks (4 passenger jacks) are all basically paralleled together. I tested injecting audio with the attached circuit using 10 ohm and 100 ohm resistors, and got a satisfactory music and intercom volume to the headset... tested using a portable intercom. What I forgot about was the section in blue....with the other headsets in parallel. I'm betting that the resistors will do nothing to prevent the MUSIC audio from this left seat example from being heard by the right seat (blue). It seems to me that I'll need to put some sort of isolator in the intercom audio line, just before the 10 ohm resistors, in order to prevent the music from backfeeding to the other headsets. Is there a simple way to do this, or am I wrong, and the resistors if I do a similar circuit on the right, act as some sort of matching device and prevent this from happening? -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:05 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: G530 TX Issue From: My Garmin 530 is having an issue transmitting. 1. When I click on the PTT button the TX light comes on the Garmin and my test handheld radio goes silent as to receive the voice. No voice is transmitted/heard. I have to really speak up to hear myself talking when I press the button. 2. My other 2 com radios work perfectly. 3. Also when transmitting the Audio COM1 button blinks and recognizes the transmission. 4. The vol/sql knob appears to work as advertised. Ideas appreciated. Thanks Glenn E. Long ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:20 AM PST US From: Tim Perry Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: G530 TX Issue Had my 430 do the same thing. Had to send it to garmin, they ended up repla cing the two boards. I have talked to several others have similar failures o n the 430 and 530. For the 430 it was flat rate repair of $800. Tim On Dec 7, 2010, at 1:30 PM, wrote: > My Garmin 530 is having an issue transmitting. > > > > 1. When I click on the PTT button the TX light comes on the Garmin a nd my test handheld radio goes silent as to receive the voice. No voice is t ransmitted/heard. I have to really speak up to hear myself talking when I pr ess the button. > > 2. My other 2 com radios work perfectly. > > 3. Also when transmitting the Audio COM1 button blinks and recognize s the transmission. > > 4. The vol/sql knob appears to work as advertised. > > > > Ideas appreciated. > > > > Thanks > > > > Glenn E. Long > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:25 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: G530 TX Issue On 12/7/2010 12:30 PM, longg@pjm.com wrote: > > My Garmin 530 is having an issue transmitting. > > 1.When I click on the PTT button the TX light comes on the Garmin and > my test handheld radio goes silent as to receive the voice. No voice > is transmitted/heard. I have to really speak up to hear myself talking > when I press the button. > > 2.My other 2 com radios work perfectly. > > 3.Also when transmitting the Audio COM1 button blinks and recognizes > the transmission. > > 4.The vol/sql knob appears to work as advertised. > > Ideas appreciated. > > Thanks > > Glenn E. Long > A friend had the same symptom with a factory new 430. Swapped into another a/c & it worked fine; bad again in his plane. After perusing the wiring diagrams for days and contacting Garmin tech help & detailing every single pin that had wire (tech said it was wired correctly), he finally took it to a local avionics shop. They took one look at the back & told him he was missing one of the grounds (sorry; don't remember which one). The harness was built by the vendor where he bought the radio. Remember that even if it worked for a while, pins can back out of the housing if they are defective, or if they were not fully seated when they were installed. Charlie ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:26 PM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Music isolation advice This is the expensive way to achieve what you're after here - street price should be less, but way more than a few resistors! I'm not an electronics guru, but I don't see any reason why the audio would not be fed into the other headsets - there doesn't appear to be anything to stop it ... Perhaps you need a isolating amplifier at each seat - Bob posted about these a few days ago: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/ Not entirely sure it will meet your needs, but I think it does. Peter On 07/12/2010 17:30, Tim Olson wrote: > Attached is a .jpg to best explain this.... > > I'm mixing audio into the headset cord, basically. > In the end I will be doing something for both rear > seats, so they have independent music. > > Today though I realized something after looking at my > audio panel (PMA8000) wiring info... All of the > rear seat jacks (4 passenger jacks) are all basically > paralleled together. > > I tested injecting audio with the attached circuit > using 10 ohm and 100 ohm resistors, and got a > satisfactory music and intercom volume to the headset... > tested using a portable intercom. What I forgot > about was the section in blue....with the other > headsets in parallel. > > I'm betting that the resistors will do nothing to > prevent the MUSIC audio from this left seat example from > being heard by the right seat (blue). > > It seems to me that I'll need to put some sort > of isolator in the intercom audio line, just > before the 10 ohm resistors, in order to prevent > the music from backfeeding to the other headsets. > > Is there a simple way to do this, or am I wrong, and > the resistors if I do a similar circuit on the right, > act as some sort of matching device and prevent > this from happening? > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:06 PM PST US From: "Sue Dehnert" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Key Switch & LSE Ignition Hi all, Will be using a standard aircraft key switch and connecting L/H mag P lead to terminal L on switch with shield grounded at mag and connected to GRD terminal on switch. The LSE ignition key switch option (P) lead from output connector pin 1 to terminal R on the switch. This lead is shielded and connected to pin 9 on the output connector of the LSE and GRD terminal on the switch. Q 1 Does the switch GRD terminal need to be grounded to the airframe ie battery ground because of the LSE ignition. Q 2 Do I use the Jumper between the GRD & R terminals on the switch. ( Aerosportpower O360 with 1 mag L/H & LSE ignition R/H ) Q 3 Separate from above which TACH signal on LSE would be best to use for DYNON EMS Pulse or Analog Hope I have explained this clearly and look forward to your replies thanks John Dehnert. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:22 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Music isolation advice Holy moly, if I'd have known about those a few days ago I might just have jumped on that. Indeed it is nearly exactly what I'm looking for, but yeah, at 3X the price I suppose. It looks like you're right...this kit that Bob has might be just the ticket. I'll have to see if the circuit board is available pre-made...if so, I think I'll do this. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 12/7/2010 3:35 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > This is the expensive way to achieve what you're after here > - street price should be > less, but way more than a few resistors! > > I'm not an electronics guru, but I don't see any reason why the audio > would not be fed into the other headsets - there doesn't appear to be > anything to stop it ... Perhaps you need a isolating amplifier at each > seat - Bob posted about these a few days ago: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/ > > Not entirely sure it will meet your needs, but I think it does. > > Peter > > On 07/12/2010 17:30, Tim Olson wrote: >> Attached is a .jpg to best explain this.... >> >> I'm mixing audio into the headset cord, basically. >> In the end I will be doing something for both rear >> seats, so they have independent music. >> >> Today though I realized something after looking at my >> audio panel (PMA8000) wiring info... All of the >> rear seat jacks (4 passenger jacks) are all basically >> paralleled together. >> >> I tested injecting audio with the attached circuit >> using 10 ohm and 100 ohm resistors, and got a >> satisfactory music and intercom volume to the headset... >> tested using a portable intercom. What I forgot >> about was the section in blue....with the other >> headsets in parallel. >> >> I'm betting that the resistors will do nothing to >> prevent the MUSIC audio from this left seat example from >> being heard by the right seat (blue). >> >> It seems to me that I'll need to put some sort >> of isolator in the intercom audio line, just >> before the 10 ohm resistors, in order to prevent >> the music from backfeeding to the other headsets. >> >> Is there a simple way to do this, or am I wrong, and >> the resistors if I do a similar circuit on the right, >> act as some sort of matching device and prevent >> this from happening? >> > * > > * ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Noise in headset from Map496 From: Marty I am trying to track down some noise in my headset that near as I can tell is generated by my MAP496 with weather. When I turn the GPS off, the noise is gone. The noise is a rhythmic sort of hiss in the head set, approx every second. It appears with engine on or engine off. It is masked when flying by the other noise in the cockpit, but it is noticeable. The noise might be generated by the active weather antenna, but as my unit is panel mounted and powered from the buss so pulling the antenna is not the easiest chore. I can't find a way to turn the weather off, and deactivate that antenna to see if that is the source while the GPS is turned on. The GPS and Weather antennas are mounted close to each other, on the glare shield in front of the co-pilot and above to the Garmin GMA340 audio panel. Anyone have some experience with this or other ideas? Marty RV-6A N826ME ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Music isolation advice At 04:11 PM 12/7/2010, you wrote: > >Holy moly, if I'd have known about those a few days >ago I might just have jumped on that. Indeed it >is nearly exactly what I'm looking for, but yeah, >at 3X the price I suppose. > >It looks like you're right...this kit that Bob has might >be just the ticket. I'll have to see if the circuit >board is available pre-made...if so, I think I'll do this. I've never offered it as an assembled device but I think I've got the parts in the bins to build one. If you decide that's what you need, we can probably accommodate you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:13 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem It could also be a sticking brush on the field coil. Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Lloyd Sent: December 6, 2010 7:05 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem About intermittent alternators..... Once I had to chase a mystery problem. Alternator would go off line, later come on line. I later chased down a hairline crack in the stationary stator windings in the case where it entered a swaging boss. When the alt. go hot, the hairline crack would open and after the alt. cooled a little the wire would make continuity and charge again. I suspect that the heavy wire was damaged during manufacture and would not show up until the alt. put under heavy loads in hot conditions. I had to use a magnifying glass to finally view the crack..... If it is not diodes, then look for this stator wire problem. David ----- Original Message ----- From: Neal George Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 12:58 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem I suspect you're losing an output diode in the alternator. neal From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 9:59 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem While on a cross country flight last week, I got a low voltage indication in my Lancair Legacy, wired using Z 13-8. I turned on the SD-8 aux alternator and the voltage increased to the low end of the normal range. I also noticed a whine sound in my headset. If I turned off the main alternator, the whine went away but the voltage sagged. (I have an all electric airplane and the SD-8 won't carry the full load unless I shed loads, turn the master switch off, and run on the E-bus.) I turned the main alternator back on and the whine sound in my headset returned and the voltage returned to the low end of the normal range. I flew that way for about 15 minutes and the whine suddenly stopped and voltage jumped up to normal. I turned off the aux alternator and completed the flight normally. Everything was perfectly normal for the two hour flight home. Any ideas what caused this? Since the first symptom was reduced output and a whine in the headset, I initially suspected failed diodes inside the alternator, but when it healed itself, I thought it might have been a brush problem inside the alternator. After 15 minutes, whatever was causing poor brush contact went away? I'm grasping at straws here. I am so thankful for Bob's Z 13-8 architecture, which allowed me to continue the flight without breaking a sweat! Thanks, Bob! Supporting information: Lancair Legacy, Continental IO-550 engine, 12 volt gear-driven main alternator, SD-8 permanent magnet aux alternator, Z 13-8 architecture, all electric panel. Dennis Johnson www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:27 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Music isolation advice Yeah, it seems to be what I'd need...even more than what I'd need. I just want audio in on one jack, and to be able to boost it only a little. The headset audio would just pass through and mix, without allowing the music audio to backfeed to the rest of the system. In my application, I'd actually need to build 2 of them, one for each seat, since really my goal is to mix music with a single headset, without affecting all the other headsets, so that the 2 rear seater's can each have their own independent music. That's pretty much it. If the device does that, my next step is to get the parts and boards together and start soldering away. Not sure what the parts list comes to, but if it can be done for under $100 for a pair of them, I'll be pretty happy...especially if it can give a little gain to the music audio. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 12/7/2010 4:30 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 04:11 PM 12/7/2010, you wrote: >> >> Holy moly, if I'd have known about those a few days >> ago I might just have jumped on that. Indeed it >> is nearly exactly what I'm looking for, but yeah, >> at 3X the price I suppose. >> >> It looks like you're right...this kit that Bob has might >> be just the ticket. I'll have to see if the circuit >> board is available pre-made...if so, I think I'll do this. > > I've never offered it as an assembled device > but I think I've got the parts in the bins to > build one. If you decide that's what you need, > we can probably accommodate you. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Water temp sensor ground From: Paul Kuntz This photoshows a water temperature sensor in the coolant manifold riser on my Rotax 912 installation. It's the brass-colored fitting screwed into the end of the short horizontal tube in the middle of the photo. The sensor needs a ground, but the coolant manifold is connected by rubber hoses to the engine, so it's not presently grounded. I would prefer to ground the sensor with a tabbed copper washer under the sensor itself, to which I could attach a ground wire, but I don't know a source. I suppose I could fabricate one myself, but I'd rather buy one if they are available. Alternatively, I could screw a hose clamp around the manifold and ground the clamp. Any recommendations? 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