Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:24 AM - Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? (Noel Loveys)
2. 05:54 AM - Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:08 AM - Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: G530 TX Issue ()
5. 08:52 AM - Re: Intermittent Generator (Dennis Johnson)
6. 10:14 AM - Re: Intermittent Generator Problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 12:39 PM - Grounding Sensors (Paul Millner)
8. 03:39 PM - Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? (Noel Loveys)
9. 07:08 PM - Re: Special type of charger? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Special type of charger? (Richard Girard)
Message 1
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Subject: | Odyssey type batteries require a special type |
of charger?
Actually most chargers will reduce the amount of current being fed to the
battery as the battery accepts charge. In effect as the battery accepts a
charge it becomes a large resistor to the current feeding it. The only
thing the three step charge does is lower the input requirements for the
charger.
This is why when you put a discharged battery on to charge it draws maximum
current and when the battery is close to full charged the current is
minimal. It is possible for chargers when they come to the end of a charge
cycle to increase the voltage fed to the battery causing the battery to boil
dry.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of F. Tim
Yoder
Sent: December 10, 2010 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey type batteries require a special
type of charger?
<ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
What kind of Alternator do you get that produces 3 sequential charge
currents for the Odyssey?
Well, I thought it was funny.
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey type batteries require a special
type of charger?
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 10:48 AM 12/9/2010, you wrote:
>><tim2542@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> From ODYSSEY's site:
>>
>>http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-008_1010.pdf
>>
>>Also I note that the charges they sell use 3 sequential charge currents.
>>This may be of use in the Deep cycle application and of course your
>>alternator does not know if you have an ODYSSEY or a Sears & Robuck
>>battery. I cant imagine it would not get a complete charge after a few
>>hours with 14 VDC on it.
>>Tim Andres
>
> Right on. The Internet driven dispersal of
> floobydust about SVLA battery charging has been
> waxing and waning for at least ten years.
>
> Bottom line is that EVERY manufacturer of battery
> has good reason to recommend/discourage a battery
> charging philosophy . . . but for reasons that
> are usually not known to us and is probably
> irrelevant.
>
> The folks at the factory may have conducted many
> detailed studies with a goal of knowing (1) how
> their product performs and (2) how to make that
> performance stand a tad taller than the competition.
>
> As Tim noted, once you bolt the battery to your
> airplane, ALL bets for achieving the greatest
> possible service life are off. This is because
> the probability that any given battery is asked
> to perform in laboratory conditions is zero.
>
> The problem is further compounded when folks who
> sell batteries mix decades of ol' mechanics lore
> with ideas taken from the new supplier's 4-color
> brochures. Mix the 'right' ingredients and clouds
> of floobydust explode.
>
> There is no such thing as a modern "trickle" charger
> which is, by definition, a small but CONSTANT
> CURRENT charger. Trickle chargers are mildly abusive
> of a flooded battery ('cause you can put in more
> water) and poison to an SVLA battery ('cause you
> can't put in more water).
>
> Many small chargers (1/2 amp to perhaps 2 amps
> capability) are often mis-identified as "trickle
> chargers" based only on their electrical size.
>
> In fact, I'm aware of NO modern product at any
> price that does not go into some form of constant
> SUSTAINING voltage after spending some time at
> a bulk charge or TOP-OFF voltage. These are BATTERY
> MAINTAINERS. The least expensive device at WalMart are
> entirely suitable for charging/maintaining any
> brand/size of SVLA battery.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Ideal_Recharge_Protocol.jpg
>
> How close do the market place chargers come to meeting
> the "ideal recharge protocol"?
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Minder_Recharge.pdf
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_2.jpg
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_4.jpg
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_6.jpg
>
> Not many.
>
> How much difference will it make in the demonstrated
> service life in YOUR airplane. Not much.
>
> Check out the offerings of Professor Battery
> (Isador Buchmann) at . . .
>
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn
>
> Finally, exhortations for application or black-
> listing of any modern product as a battery charger
> need to be filtered integrity of the physics and/or
> relevance in your proposed application.
>
> As Tim noted, your alternator/regulator combo
> doesn't read Battery Digest.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type |
of charger?
At 09:35 PM 12/9/2010, you wrote:
><ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
>
>What kind of Alternator do you get that produces 3 sequential charge
>currents for the Odyssey?
>Well, I thought it was funny.
>
>Tim
Exactly.
We considered launching into just such a protocol
for the next generation alternator regulator.
About 10 years ago I did a design study on a
microprocessor based regulator that would produce
a behavior not unlike the 'ideal SLVA battery
recharge curve'.
Having sized the task we then had to decide how
to merchandise the thing. It was going to be
about as expensive as an LR series regulator.
Further, since the marketplace was moving
decidedly toward the automotive alternators
with built in regulators, selection of my new
offering would demand other "inconveniences"
be embraced to modify the alternator for
external regulation.
What could I tell the customer about the value
for adding "the kitchen sink" to his suite of
system accessories? It was decided that the
economics of adding that expense to the cost
of ownership for an OBAM aircraft was not
justified. Selling the device would require
the kinds of advertising you encounter for
most other products and services . . . like
"new and improved".
The project was shelved.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Odyssey type batteries require a special type |
of charger?
Actually most chargers will reduce the amount of current being fed to the
battery as the battery accepts charge. In effect as the battery accepts a
charge it becomes a large resistor to the current feeding it. The only
thing the three step charge does is lower the input requirements for the
charger.
The current demands on a constant voltage charger is
a function of what the battery is presently accepting at
that voltage. The only way the charger knows the battery
is charged is to monitor recharge current versus time. When
the recharge current has dropped below some target vale for
some minimum period of time, the smart charger switches to
the maintenance mode by dropping the output voltage to a
value just above the battery's open circuit voltage.
. . . just enough voltage to support the battery's internal
leakage losses but not enough to produce unwelcome charging.
Thus the battery is prevented from running itself down during
a long term maintenance interval.
This is why when you put a discharged battery on to charge it draws maximum
current and when the battery is close to full charged the current is
minimal. It is possible for chargers when they come to the end of a charge
cycle to increase the voltage fed to the battery causing the battery to boil
dry.
This IS the salient feature of the so-called "trickle"
chargers of yesteryear. They offer constant current
outputs that are not programmed to terminate when the
battery is charged. So even if the "trickle" is small,
say 100 mA, subjecting a battery to a month of small
but persistent "overcharge" is potentially terminal for
an SVLA battery.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: G530 TX Issue |
Ralph,
Thanks for the tips. As far as I know it worked earlier this year. Since
I've been building I've not really used it for talking, just listening.
It also came back with a clean bill from a shop bench test. Of course
that doesn't guarantee anything.
I am using the Approach Stack bus so I'll check the connections and
re-seat everything too. They made the cables. Someone else mentioned to
check the case ground for continuity. Now that you mentioned Mic High, I
think Approached used a blue wire to represent that pin. It was either
High or Low that was supposed to go to ground?
Glenn E. Long
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
hooverra
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:10 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: G530 TX Issue
<hooverra@comcast.net>
Glen,
You didn't say if it ever worked. From the symptoms you present it would
appear to be the mic audio connection from the audio panel to the to the
530.
Other com working says the mic and audio input is OK.
The TX indicator and breaking squelch on the Hand Held Radio says the
Mic Key and transmitter are working. You could have a defective Audio
panel output or 530 Mic input but it is more likely a connection issue.
Use a couple of pins crimped to a pair of stiff wires so you can probe
the tray connectors and check continuity of both the Mic high and Mic
Return lines. You will probably find A. A pin in the wrong place, B. A
pin retracted from the connector, C. A bad crimp or D. A broken wire.
I had a similar symptom on an RV-10 with a 430 it was A pin in the
wrong position. If it ever worked then I would suspect B
Good luck
--------
Ralph & Laura Hoover
RV7A N527LR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322796#322796
Message 5
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Subject: | RE: Intermittent Generator |
Hi Noel,
Thanks, I'll check the F lead connection. I'm also guessing that it's
sticking brushes. Unless I find some other cause, I'm planning to
continue flying it until it fails again and then have the alternator
repaired by a reputable shop.
Thanks,
Dennis
Time: 06:01:04 AM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Intermittent Generator
You may also want to check the point where the F lead attaches to the
alternator. I'm still betting on sticky brushes. My experience is,
that
only happens when the brushes are well worn.
Noel
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Intermittent Generator Problem |
Any ideas what caused this? Since the first symptom was reduced
output and a whine in the headset, I initially suspected failed
diodes inside the alternator, but when it healed itself, I thought it
might have been a brush problem inside the alternator.
Could be a grounding issue too . . .
After 15 minutes, whatever was causing poor brush contact went
away? I'm grasping at straws here.
I am so thankful for Bob's Z 13-8 architecture, which allowed me to
continue the flight without breaking a sweat! Thanks, Bob!
Let's replace the 'straws' with data. What kind of
alternator/regulator combination are you flying?
If an externally regulated alternator, consider
adding a temporary instrumentation wire with 1000
ohm resistor as close as possible to to the
alternator's field terminal best. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z22K_23K.pdf
Get some cheepy volt-ohmeter to monitor voltage
at the cockpit end of the wire in flight. An analog
meter is best suited for this. This would be a good
choice:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103957
Tape the meter up where you can watch it. Note the
readings when the system is operating normally/
abnormally. Review the topic of Alternator Fault
Isolation in chapter 3 of the 'Connection.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Grounding Sensors |
I solved this by installing a spring in the stack... so that the spring
keeps the washer tight against the sensor body, and makes up for
differences in pipe thread make-up.
Paul
On 12/9/2010 11:56 PM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote:
> If the brass fitting had NPT threads, trying to clamp a tabbed washer
> between the fitting and the manifold is probably not a good idea.
> Clamping force is required to maintain electrical contact/continuity
> with the washer, fitting& sensor. NPT threads depend on taper&
> interference fit to seal. Finding the perfect thickness of washer to
> fill the gap between the manifold boss and the adapter shoulder while
> maintaining the correct fit of the NPT threads without over- or
> under-torquing might be challenging.
Message 8
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Subject: | Odyssey type batteries require a special type |
of charger?
Thanks Bob...
Now I have to look up SVLA ;-)
Noel
The current demands on a constant voltage charger is
a function of what the battery is presently accepting at
that voltage. The only way the charger knows the battery
is charged is to monitor recharge current versus time. When
the recharge current has dropped below some target vale for
some minimum period of time, the smart charger switches to
the maintenance mode by dropping the output voltage to a
value just above the battery's open circuit voltage.
. . . just enough voltage to support the battery's internal
leakage losses but not enough to produce unwelcome charging.
Thus the battery is prevented from running itself down during
a long term maintenance interval.
This IS the salient feature of the so-called "trickle"
chargers of yesteryear. They offer constant current
outputs that are not programmed to terminate when the
battery is charged. So even if the "trickle" is small,
say 100 mA, subjecting a battery to a month of small
but persistent "overcharge" is potentially terminal for
an SVLA battery.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | re: Special type of charger? |
At 05:24 PM 12/10/2010, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob...
>
>Now I have to look up SVLA ;-)
Sorry.
Sealed Vented Lead-Acid, same as: Recombinant
Gas (RG), starved electrolyte, and perhaps
some names I've not discovered yet.
They're often confused with and called "gell-cells"
which they are not. They are also distinct from
a class of "maintenance free" battery used in
the automotive industry which is in fact a flooded
and vented cell that you can't open up to replace
water.
But for the most part, any battery you pick up
that weighs like a brick of lead encased in plastic
is an SVLA/RG/SE battery.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: re: Special type of charger? |
AGM, Absorbent Glass Mat, and I remember seeing SLA, Starved Lead Acid,
somewhere, too.
Merry Christmas Bob, you're better than Santa Claus. Gifts all year long,
and no reindeer poop on the roof.:-}
Rick Girard
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 05:24 PM 12/10/2010, you wrote:
>
>> noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>
>> Thanks Bob...
>>
>> Now I have to look up SVLA ;-)
>>
>
> Sorry.
>
> Sealed Vented Lead-Acid, same as: Recombinant
> Gas (RG), starved electrolyte, and perhaps
> some names I've not discovered yet.
>
> They're often confused with and called "gell-cells"
> which they are not. They are also distinct from
> a class of "maintenance free" battery used in
> the automotive industry which is in fact a flooded
> and vented cell that you can't open up to replace
> water.
>
> But for the most part, any battery you pick up
> that weighs like a brick of lead encased in plastic
> is an SVLA/RG/SE battery.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
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