---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/10/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:24 AM - Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? (Noel Loveys) 2. 05:54 AM - Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:08 AM - Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: G530 TX Issue () 5. 08:52 AM - Re: Intermittent Generator (Dennis Johnson) 6. 10:14 AM - Re: Intermittent Generator Problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 12:39 PM - Grounding Sensors (Paul Millner) 8. 03:39 PM - Re: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? (Noel Loveys) 9. 07:08 PM - Re: Special type of charger? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Special type of charger? (Richard Girard) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:31 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? Actually most chargers will reduce the amount of current being fed to the battery as the battery accepts charge. In effect as the battery accepts a charge it becomes a large resistor to the current feeding it. The only thing the three step charge does is lower the input requirements for the charger. This is why when you put a discharged battery on to charge it draws maximum current and when the battery is close to full charged the current is minimal. It is possible for chargers when they come to the end of a charge cycle to increase the voltage fed to the battery causing the battery to boil dry. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of F. Tim Yoder Sent: December 10, 2010 12:06 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? What kind of Alternator do you get that produces 3 sequential charge currents for the Odyssey? Well, I thought it was funny. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:02 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? > > > At 10:48 AM 12/9/2010, you wrote: >> >> >> From ODYSSEY's site: >> >>http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-008_1010.pdf >> >>Also I note that the charges they sell use 3 sequential charge currents. >>This may be of use in the Deep cycle application and of course your >>alternator does not know if you have an ODYSSEY or a Sears & Robuck >>battery. I cant imagine it would not get a complete charge after a few >>hours with 14 VDC on it. >>Tim Andres > > Right on. The Internet driven dispersal of > floobydust about SVLA battery charging has been > waxing and waning for at least ten years. > > Bottom line is that EVERY manufacturer of battery > has good reason to recommend/discourage a battery > charging philosophy . . . but for reasons that > are usually not known to us and is probably > irrelevant. > > The folks at the factory may have conducted many > detailed studies with a goal of knowing (1) how > their product performs and (2) how to make that > performance stand a tad taller than the competition. > > As Tim noted, once you bolt the battery to your > airplane, ALL bets for achieving the greatest > possible service life are off. This is because > the probability that any given battery is asked > to perform in laboratory conditions is zero. > > The problem is further compounded when folks who > sell batteries mix decades of ol' mechanics lore > with ideas taken from the new supplier's 4-color > brochures. Mix the 'right' ingredients and clouds > of floobydust explode. > > There is no such thing as a modern "trickle" charger > which is, by definition, a small but CONSTANT > CURRENT charger. Trickle chargers are mildly abusive > of a flooded battery ('cause you can put in more > water) and poison to an SVLA battery ('cause you > can't put in more water). > > Many small chargers (1/2 amp to perhaps 2 amps > capability) are often mis-identified as "trickle > chargers" based only on their electrical size. > > In fact, I'm aware of NO modern product at any > price that does not go into some form of constant > SUSTAINING voltage after spending some time at > a bulk charge or TOP-OFF voltage. These are BATTERY > MAINTAINERS. The least expensive device at WalMart are > entirely suitable for charging/maintaining any > brand/size of SVLA battery. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Ideal_Recharge_Protocol.jpg > > How close do the market place chargers come to meeting > the "ideal recharge protocol"? > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Minder_Recharge.pdf > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_2.jpg > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_4.jpg > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_6.jpg > > Not many. > > How much difference will it make in the demonstrated > service life in YOUR airplane. Not much. > > Check out the offerings of Professor Battery > (Isador Buchmann) at . . . > > http://batteryuniversity.com/learn > > Finally, exhortations for application or black- > listing of any modern product as a battery charger > need to be filtered integrity of the physics and/or > relevance in your proposed application. > > As Tim noted, your alternator/regulator combo > doesn't read Battery Digest. > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? At 09:35 PM 12/9/2010, you wrote: > > >What kind of Alternator do you get that produces 3 sequential charge >currents for the Odyssey? >Well, I thought it was funny. > >Tim Exactly. We considered launching into just such a protocol for the next generation alternator regulator. About 10 years ago I did a design study on a microprocessor based regulator that would produce a behavior not unlike the 'ideal SLVA battery recharge curve'. Having sized the task we then had to decide how to merchandise the thing. It was going to be about as expensive as an LR series regulator. Further, since the marketplace was moving decidedly toward the automotive alternators with built in regulators, selection of my new offering would demand other "inconveniences" be embraced to modify the alternator for external regulation. What could I tell the customer about the value for adding "the kitchen sink" to his suite of system accessories? It was decided that the economics of adding that expense to the cost of ownership for an OBAM aircraft was not justified. Selling the device would require the kinds of advertising you encounter for most other products and services . . . like "new and improved". The project was shelved. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? Actually most chargers will reduce the amount of current being fed to the battery as the battery accepts charge. In effect as the battery accepts a charge it becomes a large resistor to the current feeding it. The only thing the three step charge does is lower the input requirements for the charger. The current demands on a constant voltage charger is a function of what the battery is presently accepting at that voltage. The only way the charger knows the battery is charged is to monitor recharge current versus time. When the recharge current has dropped below some target vale for some minimum period of time, the smart charger switches to the maintenance mode by dropping the output voltage to a value just above the battery's open circuit voltage. . . . just enough voltage to support the battery's internal leakage losses but not enough to produce unwelcome charging. Thus the battery is prevented from running itself down during a long term maintenance interval. This is why when you put a discharged battery on to charge it draws maximum current and when the battery is close to full charged the current is minimal. It is possible for chargers when they come to the end of a charge cycle to increase the voltage fed to the battery causing the battery to boil dry. This IS the salient feature of the so-called "trickle" chargers of yesteryear. They offer constant current outputs that are not programmed to terminate when the battery is charged. So even if the "trickle" is small, say 100 mA, subjecting a battery to a month of small but persistent "overcharge" is potentially terminal for an SVLA battery. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: G530 TX Issue From: Ralph, Thanks for the tips. As far as I know it worked earlier this year. Since I've been building I've not really used it for talking, just listening. It also came back with a clean bill from a shop bench test. Of course that doesn't guarantee anything. I am using the Approach Stack bus so I'll check the connections and re-seat everything too. They made the cables. Someone else mentioned to check the case ground for continuity. Now that you mentioned Mic High, I think Approached used a blue wire to represent that pin. It was either High or Low that was supposed to go to ground? Glenn E. Long -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hooverra Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:10 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: G530 TX Issue Glen, You didn't say if it ever worked. From the symptoms you present it would appear to be the mic audio connection from the audio panel to the to the 530. Other com working says the mic and audio input is OK. The TX indicator and breaking squelch on the Hand Held Radio says the Mic Key and transmitter are working. You could have a defective Audio panel output or 530 Mic input but it is more likely a connection issue. Use a couple of pins crimped to a pair of stiff wires so you can probe the tray connectors and check continuity of both the Mic high and Mic Return lines. You will probably find A. A pin in the wrong place, B. A pin retracted from the connector, C. A bad crimp or D. A broken wire. I had a similar symptom on an RV-10 with a 430 it was A pin in the wrong position. If it ever worked then I would suspect B Good luck -------- Ralph & Laura Hoover RV7A N527LR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322796#322796 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:52 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Intermittent Generator Hi Noel, Thanks, I'll check the F lead connection. I'm also guessing that it's sticking brushes. Unless I find some other cause, I'm planning to continue flying it until it fails again and then have the alternator repaired by a reputable shop. Thanks, Dennis Time: 06:01:04 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Intermittent Generator You may also want to check the point where the F lead attaches to the alternator. I'm still betting on sticky brushes. My experience is, that only happens when the brushes are well worn. Noel ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem Any ideas what caused this? Since the first symptom was reduced output and a whine in the headset, I initially suspected failed diodes inside the alternator, but when it healed itself, I thought it might have been a brush problem inside the alternator. Could be a grounding issue too . . . After 15 minutes, whatever was causing poor brush contact went away? I'm grasping at straws here. I am so thankful for Bob's Z 13-8 architecture, which allowed me to continue the flight without breaking a sweat! Thanks, Bob! Let's replace the 'straws' with data. What kind of alternator/regulator combination are you flying? If an externally regulated alternator, consider adding a temporary instrumentation wire with 1000 ohm resistor as close as possible to to the alternator's field terminal best. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z22K_23K.pdf Get some cheepy volt-ohmeter to monitor voltage at the cockpit end of the wire in flight. An analog meter is best suited for this. This would be a good choice: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103957 Tape the meter up where you can watch it. Note the readings when the system is operating normally/ abnormally. Review the topic of Alternator Fault Isolation in chapter 3 of the 'Connection. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:58 PM PST US From: Paul Millner Subject: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Sensors I solved this by installing a spring in the stack... so that the spring keeps the washer tight against the sensor body, and makes up for differences in pipe thread make-up. Paul On 12/9/2010 11:56 PM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote: > If the brass fitting had NPT threads, trying to clamp a tabbed washer > between the fitting and the manifold is probably not a good idea. > Clamping force is required to maintain electrical contact/continuity > with the washer, fitting& sensor. NPT threads depend on taper& > interference fit to seal. Finding the perfect thickness of washer to > fill the gap between the manifold boss and the adapter shoulder while > maintaining the correct fit of the NPT threads without over- or > under-torquing might be challenging. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:30 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey type batteries require a special type of charger? Thanks Bob... Now I have to look up SVLA ;-) Noel The current demands on a constant voltage charger is a function of what the battery is presently accepting at that voltage. The only way the charger knows the battery is charged is to monitor recharge current versus time. When the recharge current has dropped below some target vale for some minimum period of time, the smart charger switches to the maintenance mode by dropping the output voltage to a value just above the battery's open circuit voltage. . . . just enough voltage to support the battery's internal leakage losses but not enough to produce unwelcome charging. Thus the battery is prevented from running itself down during a long term maintenance interval. This IS the salient feature of the so-called "trickle" chargers of yesteryear. They offer constant current outputs that are not programmed to terminate when the battery is charged. So even if the "trickle" is small, say 100 mA, subjecting a battery to a month of small but persistent "overcharge" is potentially terminal for an SVLA battery. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: Special type of charger? At 05:24 PM 12/10/2010, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob... > >Now I have to look up SVLA ;-) Sorry. Sealed Vented Lead-Acid, same as: Recombinant Gas (RG), starved electrolyte, and perhaps some names I've not discovered yet. They're often confused with and called "gell-cells" which they are not. They are also distinct from a class of "maintenance free" battery used in the automotive industry which is in fact a flooded and vented cell that you can't open up to replace water. But for the most part, any battery you pick up that weighs like a brick of lead encased in plastic is an SVLA/RG/SE battery. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: Special type of charger? From: Richard Girard AGM, Absorbent Glass Mat, and I remember seeing SLA, Starved Lead Acid, somewhere, too. Merry Christmas Bob, you're better than Santa Claus. Gifts all year long, and no reindeer poop on the roof.:-} Rick Girard On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 05:24 PM 12/10/2010, you wrote: > >> noelloveys@yahoo.ca> >> >> Thanks Bob... >> >> Now I have to look up SVLA ;-) >> > > Sorry. > > Sealed Vented Lead-Acid, same as: Recombinant > Gas (RG), starved electrolyte, and perhaps > some names I've not discovered yet. > > They're often confused with and called "gell-cells" > which they are not. They are also distinct from > a class of "maintenance free" battery used in > the automotive industry which is in fact a flooded > and vented cell that you can't open up to replace > water. > > But for the most part, any battery you pick up > that weighs like a brick of lead encased in plastic > is an SVLA/RG/SE battery. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. 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