---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/15/10: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:08 AM - Re: Computing a Resistor Value (RGent1224@aol.com) 2. 06:17 AM - pictures not showing up (Mike Welch) 3. 07:38 AM - Re: Noise from Garmin 496 (Marty) 4. 10:34 AM - Re: "Regulated" 12 v supply (jonlaury) 5. 10:46 AM - Greatest OBAM aircraft achievement in history? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 12:18 PM - Battery Relay post too short (rvg8tor) 7. 12:35 PM - Re: Battery Relay post too short (Bill Bradburry) 8. 12:35 PM - Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12 () 9. 02:21 PM - Re: Battery Relay post too short (rvg8tor) 10. 02:44 PM - Re: Greatest OBAM aircraft achievement in history? (Fisher Paul A.) 11. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: Battery Relay post too short (Roger) 12. 04:49 PM - Re: Greatest OBAM aircraft achievement in history? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 05:26 PM - Re: Intermittent Generator (Dennis Johnson) 14. 09:43 PM - Re: Re: Battery Relay post too short (Ed Holyoke) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:44 AM PST US From: RGent1224@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Computing a Resistor Value Ok, Thanks, This is the only E-Mail this has happened on. So I'll try to access it thru the group site Thanks Dick In a message dated 12/14/2010 11:42:06 P.M. Central Standard Time, robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca writes: Dick; All of the pictures in both Bob=99s original and your reply to him w orked fine for me. No blanks. Must have something to do with your computer settings. Bob McC DO NOT ARCHIVE ____________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RGent12 24@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:44 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Computing a Resistor Value All I got was blanks where a photo was supposed to be aka Blanks Dick In a message dated 12/14/2010 9:35:34 P.M. Central Standard Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: At 11:50 AM 12/14/2010, you wrote: Bob Did you include a bunch of photos that Yahoo didn't like?? Just a wondering Dick I guess I don't understand the question. Are you having trouble seeing the images? You echoed the posting back to me and they all appear as I originally sent them. 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My step-father sends me lots of 'patriotic=2C political=2C holidays=2C etc. emails that he forwards on to me. Some of them (maybe 10%) only have blank squares for pictures. I 'right click' on the picture=2C then choose "show picture". Sometimes =2C but not always=2C this works=2C and then the picture starts coming in. Hope this helps=2C Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Noise from Garmin 496 From: Marty Daniel, Thanks for your thoughts. The 496 is mounted in the panel and the Li+ batteries are always being charged by ships power when running. I've never known the batteries not to be charged, but that is something to be experimented with. The Audio output may be single ended, I'll have to get the diagrams out to find out ( I do think they are single ended) but if the batteries are charged it would seem the charging currents would be small. I do have all devices in the panel going to a single point ground on the firewall. Marty ______ Time: 08:16:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Noise from Garmin 496 From: Daniel Hooper Easier than disconnecting the power line, does it make the noise after it is fully charged? Some consumer devices with Li+ batteries have a habit of hammering the power line with noise while charging. It sounds like you have a lot of possible ground paths for the Garmin. Any of these can cause the charging return current to take an unwanted, roundabout path back to the battery. Additionally, if your audio output is single-ended (Audio+ to signal, Audio- to ground) large (by comparison) power currents can cause the unit to 'float' a bit from ground potential. When the power current varies, the 'floats' are cyclical, and you could hear it as noise. Hope that helps! --Daniel On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Marty wrote: > Thanks to Kevin K and Dave S for their replies. Seems like some > installations may have noise and others not. I'll try disconnecting the > power line next visit to the airport, but we're "frozen" in here in > Nashville TN. If that works, I suspect there is some "output" from my 496 > that is generating the noise. Pulling the power input line, which also has > the power outputs will give some clues that it is in the 496 output side > versus perhaps the weather antenna. > My GPS output signal is split into three (max per Garmin) to feed my Dynon > D10A, Electronic International Fuel Totalizer, and the third device escapes > me right now, perhaps its the EI SuperClock. I also feed the output to > Garmin's SL30 radio to feed the com and nav frequencies, and the warnings to > my Garmin Audio Panel. > Waiting now for warmer weather to go do some testing! Thanks again folks > for your thoughts. > Marty N826MERV-6A > > -- Daniel Hooper ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:24 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: "Regulated" 12 v supply From: "jonlaury" Bob, >From your analogy, I'm not sure if I should get a Johnny-Jump-Up or a DC/DC converter. :) > I suspect a set of dedicated batteries would > last a very long time. > The camera uses Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323448#323448 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Greatest OBAM aircraft achievement in history? I was digging around in my mini-museum of vintage electronics looking for a part to photograph and ran across this item: Emacs! It was 24 years ago yesterday that the largest, heaviest, most fragile, aerodynamically unstable, and highest risk owner built and maintained aircraft departed Edwards for what is probably the greatest achievement in the history of OBAM aviation. I was privileged to be a part of this effort. B&C LR-1 regulators were in service during the close circuit shake-down. LR-2 regulators were installed for the Around the World Flight. I think their serial numbers were perhaps under 25. It has been a humbling thought that the folks in the Rutan Skunk Werks bolted our work-product to this high-risk airplane with no questions that I can recall about failure mode effects analysis, reliability studies, DO-160 testing, parts de-rating, post-production screening, mil-standard components, assembly personnel training and certification, quality assurance manuals, membership in the club of ISO elites, etc, etc . . . Had those regulators been crafted and delivered to modern notions of "aviation quality", they would have probably cost $25,000 each. The regulators we shipped were the same configuration of work product that went out the door to mounted on a LongEz and cost the guy $225. What's more, it was just a few weeks earlier that the LR-2 replaced LR-1 after we discovered some unhappy qualities in LR-1s. I believe that nobody was happier to see that airplane safely back on the ground as I. Something profound that happens to individuals who take on tasks like this. Had those regulators been $25,000 each and the mission had failed due to regulator failure, no doubt there would be plenty of places to hang blame. The post-mission de-briefing would assert some "system failure." When 4 or 5 folks hammered out parts in a Butler building in Bill's back yard, places to hang blame are limited. No system in which to hide. Very few folks in today's world are even aware of nor do they have an appreciation for what the Voyager program represented. It was conceived, built and completed a successful mission with the same top-to-bottom management philosophy that produced a host of airplanes that range from Blackbirds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Works http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Johnson down to C-140s, Bonanza, PA-12, etc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_aircraft Voyager may have been the very last of such success stories. The last vestiges of this recipe for success has all but disappeared from institutionally produced aviation. But it hasn't completely expired. It's still happening in the shops and hangars of thousand of OBAM aircraft enthusiasts all over the world. Yeah, there's uncle Burt's space flight program . . . another example of how a capable, closely knit and bureaucracy free program can bring new recipes for success into the history of human achievements. Those achievements have little or no potential for "trickle_down" to the form of aviation that inspires us to design, build, maintain and fly products of our imagination just for the fun of it. Most individuals alive today have any concept of where all this began and how it evolved. If you told your next door neighbor that your RV parts were ordered from Walmart, there's a fair chance they'd believe it. When you show off your work-in-process . . . or you take anyone for a ride . . . see if you can plant some seeds of curiosity about the history and particularly the people who made it all happen. In particular, try to emphasize the fact the greatest things happened when unique individuals ignored those who were convinced, "that will never work." Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:46 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Relay post too short From: "rvg8tor" On the out going post of the master relay I feed the start relay and the main bus feed. In the attached photo you can see with just the fat wire going to the start relay it takes up most of the room on the post. I know most of the Z-diagrams show both connected to the master relay. How do you guys get another lug on there? I could leave off the lock washer but then how do you keep it from coming loose? One guy told me I could remove the nut that snugs up against the relay, but to make sure the post does not turn, one could replace this with a shorter nut and get more room that way. Not sure I want to risk moving the internal part, might work for a while but this could cause unknown issues. More weight and parts but I guess I could connect the relay to a fat buss bar (maybe ANLs), then connect the start relay wire and the main bus feed wire to each. So please let me know how you others solved this issue. Thanks -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323464#323464 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/battery_relay_post_135.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:41 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery Relay post too short The nuts in that picture are reversed. The thicker nut should go on the outside. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rvg8tor Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:15 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Relay post too short On the out going post of the master relay I feed the start relay and the main bus feed. In the attached photo you can see with just the fat wire going to the start relay it takes up most of the room on the post. I know most of the Z-diagrams show both connected to the master relay. How do you guys get another lug on there? I could leave off the lock washer but then how do you keep it from coming loose? One guy told me I could remove the nut that snugs up against the relay, but to make sure the post does not turn, one could replace this with a shorter nut and get more room that way. Not sure I want to risk moving the internal part, might work for a while but this could cause unknown issues. More weight and parts but I guess I could connect the relay to a fat buss bar (maybe ANLs), then connect the start relay wire and the main bus feed wire to each. So please let me know how you others solved this issue. Thanks -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323464#323464 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/battery_relay_post_135.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:41 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12 From: ... For a Lycoming IO-360 and a Dynon D180 the tach software setting is 4. I assume similar for other Dynon products. The Dynon has a left and right option. If you only have one VT, use the left wire. This setting jives perfectly with the Simpson display on my Plasma III. Be sure to smooth the crimp on the collar of the cable end going into the engine or it will catch on the casing and cause your RPM gauge to read like my old Ford Galaxy 500. After a lot of catching it will break. Glenn E. Long -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 10:37 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12 Bob, I got their website from Van's, http://www.instrumentsales.com/ Vans could not give me any additional documentation. The website is rather limited. The way the Dynon doc reads is simply to set the pulses/revs to your particular equipment. I talked to Dynon and they admitted that this combination has been used before (and recommended because they don't sell an RPM transducer) but they do not document or support it directly. Yup, looks like a little experimenting is in order. I'll post my findings to Van's and the list as to make life a bit easier for others in the future. Thanks Glenn From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:57 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12 Seems like all the Van's folks use the EIS 4k, I'm using the Dynon 180 which is similar but different. What you're needing is the SCALE FACTOR for the transducer in pulses per revolution of the engine crankshaft. No doubt the setup instructions for the Dynon will tell you what calibration code or dip-switch setting to use for that particular transducer scale factor. Unless someone on the list has installed that combination of hardware items or incidental access to those two values you're going to have to do some legwork. Does the transducer have a brand and part number on it? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:41 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Relay post too short From: "rvg8tor" bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n wrote: > The nuts in that picture are reversed. The thicker nut should go on the > outside. > > Bill B > > -- Hmm, that is the way the relay shipped to me from Van's. Reversing the nut would not give me any more room on the post. -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323476#323476 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:34 PM PST US From: "Fisher Paul A." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Greatest OBAM aircraft achievement in history? Cool souvenir Bob! I have a picture from an Oshkosh long ago of Burt Rutan sitting on the edge of his Defiant cockpit with his headset on taking note s. He was recording flight data from Voyager that was inbound to KOSH at t he time. You can't tell it from the picture, but soon after Voyager made a pass down the runway to the utter amazement of the crowd. Not as cool a s ouvenir as yours, but it is certainly a cherished memory of that beautiful plane. I agree this may have been the greatest, but I certainly hope it isn't the last OBAM achievement! Paul A. Fisher Q-200, N17PF RV-7A, N18PF From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 12:43 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Greatest OBAM aircraft achievement in history? I was digging around in my mini-museum of vintage electronics looking for a part to photograph and ran across this item: It was 24 years ago yesterday that the largest, heaviest, most fragile, aer odynamically unstable, and highest risk owner built and maintained aircraft departed Edwards for what is probably the greatest achievement in the hist ory of OBAM aviation. I was privileged to be a part of this effort. B&C LR-1 regulators were in s ervice during the close circuit shake-down. LR-2 regulators were installed for the Around the World Flight. I think their serial numbers were perhaps under 25. It has been a humbling thought that the folks in the Rutan Skunk Werks bolted our work-product to this high-risk airplane with no questions that I can recall about failure mode effects analysis, reliability studies, DO-160 testing, parts de-rating, post-production screening, mil-standard c omponents, assembly personnel training and certification, quality assurance manuals, membership in the club of ISO elites, etc, etc . . . Had those regulators been crafted and delivered to modern notions of "aviat ion quality", they would have probably cost $25,000 each. The regulators we shipped were the same configuration of work product that went out the door to mounted on a LongEz and cost the guy $225. What's more, it was just a f ew weeks earlier that the LR-2 replaced LR-1 after we discovered some unhap py qualities in LR-1s. I believe that nobody was happier to see that airplane safely back on the g round as I. Something profound that happens to individuals who take on task s like this. Had those regulators been $25,000 each and the mission had fai led due to regulator failure, no doubt there would be plenty of places to h ang blame. The post-mission de-briefing would assert some "system failure." When 4 or 5 folks hammered out parts in a Butler building in Bill's back y ard, places to hang blame are limited. No system in which to hide. Very few folks in today's world are even aware of nor do they have an appre ciation for what the Voyager program represented. It was conceived, built a nd completed a successful mission with the same top-to-bottom management ph ilosophy that produced a host of airplanes that range from Blackbirds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Works http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Johnson down to C-140s, Bonanza, PA-12, etc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_aircraft Voyager may have been the very last of such success stories. The last vesti ges of this recipe for success has all but disappeared from institutionally produced aviation. But it hasn't completely expired. It's still happening in the shops and hangars of thousand of OBAM aircraft enthusiasts all over the world. Yeah, there's uncle Burt's space flight program . . . another example of ho w a capable, closely knit and bureaucracy free program can bring new recipe s for success into the history of human achievements. Those achievements ha ve little or no potential for "trickle_down" to the form of aviation that i nspires us to design, build, maintain and fly products of our imagination j ust for the fun of it. Most individuals alive today have any concept of where all this began and h ow it evolved. If you told your next door neighbor that your RV parts were ordered from Walmart, there's a fair chance they'd believe it. When you sho w off your work-in-process . . . or you take anyone for a ride . . . see if you can plant some seeds of curiosity about the history and particularly t he people who made it all happen. In particular, try to emphasize the fact the greatest things happened when unique individuals ignored those who were convinced, "that will never work." Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:08 PM PST US From: "Roger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Relay post too short > bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n wrote: >> The nuts in that picture are reversed. The thicker nut should go on the >> outside. >> >> Bill B >> >> -- > > > Hmm, that is the way the relay shipped to me from Van's. Reversing the > nut would not give me any more room on the post. Yes it will, try it! Roger ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:00 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Greatest OBAM aircraft achievement in history? At 04:40 PM 12/15/2010, you wrote: Cool souvenir Bob! I have a picture from an Oshkosh long ago of Burt Rutan sitting on the edge of his Defiant cockpit with his headset on taking notes. He was recording flight data from Voyager that was inbound to KOSH at the time. You can't tell it from the picture, but soon after Voyager made a pass down the runway to the utter amazement of the crowd. Not as cool a souvenir as yours, but it is certainly a cherished memory of that beautiful plane. I've never seen it fly. I was present at the 'official' roll-out party at Burt's Place. During a stroll down a really amazing flight line that I spotted the bones of the Beech Lightning languishing outside one of Burt's buildings. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/38P.jpg I think he got it as part of his "silver parachute" when he left Beech. Development testing of hardware for this airplane WOULD have put the first crowbar ov protection system on a TC aircraft. I agree this may have been the greatest, but I certainly hope it isn't the last OBAM achievement! Oh, certainly not the last. It would be interesting to talk to Burt, Mike, and all the original team to see what they see as possible OBAM aviation opportunities. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:37 PM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Intermittent Generator Hi Bob, Thanks for your reply about my one occurance of an intermittent alternator. I'll try your suggestions for troubleshooting. (By the way, it's an externally regulated 12 volt alternator with a B&C regulator.) Thanks, Dennis Time: 10:14:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Generator Problem Any ideas what caused this? Since the first symptom was reduced output and a whine in the headset, I initially suspected failed diodes inside the alternator, but when it healed itself, I thought it might have been a brush problem inside the alternator. Could be a grounding issue too . . . After 15 minutes, whatever was causing poor brush contact went away? I'm grasping at straws here. I am so thankful for Bob's Z 13-8 architecture, which allowed me to continue the flight without breaking a sweat! Thanks, Bob! Let's replace the 'straws' with data. What kind of alternator/regulator combination are you flying? If an externally regulated alternator, consider adding a temporary instrumentation wire with 1000 ohm resistor as close as possible to to the alternator's field terminal best. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z22K_23K.pdf Get some cheepy volt-ohmeter to monitor voltage at the cockpit end of the wire in flight. An analog meter is best suited for this. This would be a good choice: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103957 Tape the meter up where you can watch it. Note the readings when the system is operating normally/ abnormally. Review the topic of Alternator Fault Isolation in chapter 3 of the 'Connection. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:26 PM PST US From: Ed Holyoke Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Relay post too short Two thin nuts would do it. Pax, Ed Holyoke On 12/15/2010 3:16 PM, Roger wrote: > > >> bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n wrote: >>> The nuts in that picture are reversed. The thicker nut should go on >>> the >>> outside. >>> >>> Bill B >>> >>> -- >> >> >> Hmm, that is the way the relay shipped to me from Van's. Reversing >> the nut would not give me any more room on the post. > > Yes it will, try it! > > Roger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.