Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:39 AM - Re: heatshrink (Mike Welch)
2. 07:02 AM - Re: Heatshrink (Jim Wickert)
3. 07:06 AM - BOM Order form? heatshrink (Ed Anderson)
4. 07:14 AM - Re: heatshrink (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
5. 07:51 AM - Re: BOM Order form? heatshrink (Michael Sharp)
6. 08:53 AM - Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - GlaStar using Z13/8 architecture (Howard M. Plevyak Jr.)
7. 09:39 AM - Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - using Z13/8 architecture (Howard M. Plevyak Jr.)
8. 10:16 AM - Re: heatshrink (Mike Welch)
9. 03:28 PM - Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. (Andrew Zachar)
10. 04:31 PM - Re: heatshrink (Ed Anderson)
11. 06:31 PM - Re: Very Simple Question about landing lights, wire size, and circuit protection. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 07:01 PM - Re: Very Simple Question about landing lights, wire size, and circuit protection. (Andrew Zachar)
13. 10:10 PM - Re: Heatshrink (Bob McCallum)
Message 1
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Group=2C
Just a quick FYI=2C I got an acknowledgement from Lisa regarding you
guys ordering heatshrink from her. She said no problem=2C send her your li
sts.
Also=2C she mentioned she may have to bump the shipping charge up a bit.
Evidently=2C shipping a box stuffed full of heatshrink=2C large enough to f
it a small turkey=2C
all the way from China=2C costs a little more than $2.
Referring to shrinking again=2C I personally couldn't imagine an easier w
ay to
shrink it=2C than with a soldering iron. Providing you have the good stuff
=2C it shrinks
like it supposed to. It would seem like a lot more hassle (to me) to use a
heat gun=2C
lighter=2C torch=2C or anything else.
I'm not critizing=2C if your way works for you=2C great=2C but I find it
pretty simple to
use the iron. 10 seconds and its done....and nothing else gets heated up i
n the process.
Mike Welch
Message 2
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Mike and others
Simple means is your wife's or girlfriends hair dryer... when she is out...
works great no problems with touching the tube. Mike who do we contact for
ordering ? Thanks.
Jim Wickert
Tel 920-467-0219
Cell 920-912-1014
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Welch
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:22 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink
Mike & Bob,
Exactly. I don't have a heat gun. I just use the soldering iron. I
find it works very easily....except for the cheapie heatshrink, which
will melt and stick to it. (moral; don't use the cheapie heatshrink)
Yes, I would say this is likely the thinwall stuff. You'd have to ask
them if they carry any other kind. : )
Mike Welch
_____
From: mike@bmnellis.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink
A soldering iron could come into contact with the heat shrink if you were
using the iron to shrink the tubing. I do this quite frequently and it
typically works quite well.
Mike
Mike;
Looks like a great deal on the heatshrink, but I'm assuming this is not the
heavy dual wall heatshrink but only the lightweight kind?? If that's correct
do they also carry the dual wall type? I'd be interested in some of that.
Please provide the source details to the list.
Also, please excuse my stupidity, but why would a hot soldering iron be
coming in contact with your heatshrink?? This is the first time I've heard
of this concern. If you're soldering rather than crimping connections, the
soldering would normally be done with the heatshrink some distance up the
wire, then after the soldered joint has cooled the tubing would be slipped
into place and then shrunk with hot air from a heat gun. The soldering iron
would have no reason to be anywhere near the heatshrink, or am I missing
something??
Bob McC
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph &
Maria Finch
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink
That..is a lot of heatshrink. What's the company's name?
RF
I'm nearing the completion of all the various wiring requirements for my
plane. I've used up most of my heatshrink, but I needed a bit more.
I looked online (eBay) and found an RC Hobby Shop that had MANY heatshrink
selections for sale. (I think they are in Hong Kong)
I bought several of the smaller sizes around Christmas. Many of the 1 mm
to
3 mm sizes were $.99 -$1.50 each........all of each size was 10 meters
long!! Yes, 10 meters long of 1/8" polyolefin for a buck, and this
includes
shipping.
I was so pleased with my initial order(especially the quality of the
product), I
ordered LOTS more!! In fact, I ordered 5 different colors X 5 different
sizes.
I ought to have enough heatshrink to last me from now on!
I have used this heatshrink. It works VERY well, I am very pleased with
it.
It is not especially heat sensitive....that is, it doesn't melt and stick to
the soldering
iron, that the Radio Shack heatshrink I have does. It shrinks just like the
normal
high quality stuff you'd expect. In other words....it ain't junk!!
As I said, my order arrived today. 25 pcs of 10M heatshink. 5
different colors,
in 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm sizes. Cost? $27 total, including shipping.
If anyone is in need of a great bargain on heatshrink, let me know, and I
can forward
their company info on to you.
Here's a picture of the shipment I got today. (see picture)
Best regards, Mike Welch
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
- List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 3
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What a great find on Heat Shrink, Mike - thanks for sharing
Would you happened to have a copy of your order - material
specifications (sizes) that you ordered. From your description, it
sounds like what I need and would save me the trouble of having to
research (yes, lazy!) it.
thanks
Ed
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
From: Mike Welch
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink
Group,
Just a quick FYI, I got an acknowledgement from Lisa regarding you
guys ordering heatshrink from her. She said no problem, send her your
lists.
Also, she mentioned she may have to bump the shipping charge up a bit.
Evidently, shipping a box stuffed full of heatshrink, large enough to
fit a small turkey,
all the way from China, costs a little more than $2.
Referring to shrinking again, I personally couldn't imagine an easier
way to
shrink it, than with a soldering iron. Providing you have the good
stuff, it shrinks
like it supposed to. It would seem like a lot more hassle (to me) to
use a heat gun,
lighter, torch, or anything else.
I'm not critizing, if your way works for you, great, but I find it
pretty simple to
use the iron. 10 seconds and its done....and nothing else gets heated
up in the process.
Mike Welch
Message 4
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Mike,
Does Lisa have her own email address or is it the general one on the
website?
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Welch
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink
Group,
Just a quick FYI, I got an acknowledgement from Lisa regarding you
guys ordering heatshrink from her. She said no problem, send her your
lists.
Also, she mentioned she may have to bump the shipping charge up a bit.
Evidently, shipping a box stuffed full of heatshrink, large enough to
fit a
small turkey,
all the way from China, costs a little more than $2.
Referring to shrinking again, I personally couldn't imagine an easier
way
to
shrink it, than with a soldering iron. Providing you have the good
stuff,
it shrinks
like it supposed to. It would seem like a lot more hassle (to me) to
use a
heat gun,
lighter, torch, or anything else.
I'm not critizing, if your way works for you, great, but I find it
pretty
simple to
use the iron. 10 seconds and its done....and nothing else gets heated
up in
the process.
Mike Welch
Message 5
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Hey, I know from experience that Mike is a resourceful guy..... =0A=0AHe ha
s done the leg work for alot of us on the Kolb list...=0A=0AMy Dad used to
say, Laziness is the mother of invention!!!=0A=0ADo Not Archive..=0A=0AMike
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ed Anderson <eander
son@carolina.rr.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, Jan
uary 11, 2011 9:04:06 AM=0ASubject: BOM Order form? AeroElectric-List: heat
shrink=0A=0A=0AWhat a great find on Heat Shrink, Mike - thanks for sharing
=0A-=0AWould you happened to have a copy of your order - material specifi
cations =0A(sizes) that you ordered.- From your description, it sounds li
ke what I need and =0Awould save me the trouble of having to research (yes,
lazy!) it.=0A-=0Athanks=0A-=0AEd=0AEdward L. Anderson=0AAnderson Elect
ronic Enterprises LLC=0A305 Reefton Road=0AWeddington, NC 28104=0Ahttp://ww
w.andersonee.com=0Ahttp://www.eicommander.com=0A=0A=0AFrom: Mike Welch =0AS
ent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:33 AM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.co
m =0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink=0A=0AGroup,=0A-=0A- Jus
t a quick FYI, I got an acknowledgement from Lisa regarding you=0Aguys orde
ring heatshrink from her.- She said no problem, send her your lists.=0A
-=0A- Also, she mentioned she may have to bump the shipping charge up a
bit.=0AEvidently, shipping a box stuffed full of heatshrink,-large enoug
h to fit a =0Asmall turkey,=0Aall the way from China, costs a little more t
han $2.- =0A-=0A- Referring to shrinking again, I personally couldn't
imagine an easier way to =0Ashrink it, than with a soldering iron.- Prov
iding you have the good stuff, it =0Ashrinks=0Alike it supposed to.- It w
ould seem like a lot more hassle (to me) to use a heat =0Agun, =0A=0Alighte
r, torch, or anything else.=0A- I'm not critizing, if your way works for
you, great, but I find it pretty =0Asimple to=0Ause the iron.- 10 seconds
and its done....and nothing else gets heated up in the =0Aprocess.=0A-
=0AMike Welch=0A=0A =0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElec
tric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhref="http
://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A href="http://www.
============ =0A
Message 6
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Subject: | Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - GlaStar |
using Z13/8 architecture
Folks,
I finished an initial version of my electrical load analysis. I'd like
to get some feedback on this from the list.
My mission profile is as follows:
Primary Day/Night VFR cross country machine with long term plans to
complete a North & South America round the continent flight.
Capable of IFR flight to complete cross country trip as weather
deteriorates. I don't want to get stuck at an airport, but also don't
plan to use this machine for extended HARD IFR.
Equipment:
Superior XP360 engine, w/ Carburetor and fixed pitch Sensenich prop
Dual Lightspeed Plasma III Capacitor Discharge Ignition system (CDI)
Dual Grand Rapids Technology GRT - EFIS HX displays
PMA8000 BT Audio panel
GNS430W - Com1 / Nav1
SL30 - Com2 / Nav2
GRT Engine Information System (EIS) 4000
Trig Avionics T22 Transponder
Dynon D6 - backup ADI, A/S, Altimeter w/ it's own internal backup
battery
TruTrak Autopilot Digiflight II - VSGV
Main (15 gal) + Auxiliary Wing Tanks (10 gal each) for total of 50 gal.
fuel
B&C L-40 main alternator (40 amps)
B&C SD8 backup alternator (plan SD8 to provide 6 to 9 amps @ 2400 prop
RPM, and 5.4 to 7 amps @ 2100 rpm). Note the Sensenich prop has an rpm
continuous operation restriction from 2150 to 2350 rpm.
Z13/8 architecture as base
Questions I have:
1) Are these current draws for the equipment listed about right? I've
listed the source for each in the spreadsheet.
2) What is the maximum continuous operation amperage level to use for
both the B&C L-40 and SD8 alternators?
3) Is there equipment on the endurance bus that should be excluded?
4) Is it typical to include the audio panel on the e-Bus? Or just
include Com1/Nav1 when switching to the endurance bus?
5) What other questions should I be asking?
ID
ITEM
Option 1
Endurance
Bus Load
(B&C SD8 Alternator supported)
Option 2
Endurance
Bus Load
(Exclude 2nd ignition, 2nd EFIS)
Main
Bus Load
(B&C L40 Alternator)
Main Bus Load
(Shed pitot heat & landing light
Battery Only
(L40 & SD8 Inop)
Source of current draw number.
Comments
1
Battery Contactor
0
0
0.75
0.75
0.75
2
Lightspeed Plasma III Capacitor Discharge Ignition system
2.6
1.3
2.6
2.6
1.3
http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Products/IgnitionSpecs.htm
Single LSE Plasma III ignition system draws 1.3a @13.8V.
Klaus stated current increases as voltage supply decreases with a peak
of 2.9a at about 9.4V and 3000rpm.
3
Engine Information System (EIS 4000) - Grand Rapids Technologies
(.15 for EIS, and .1a for the warning light)
0.25
0.25
0.25
0.25
0.25
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-get.cgi?AeroElectric-Archive.dige
st.vol-as
Could reduce light amperage by going with an LED instead? Or
eliminating it since it=92s already on the GRT display.
5
Electronic Flight Information System (EFIS) HX Displays - GRT
(Dual displays in Endurance & Main modes, single display if need to
further shed)
3.0
1.5
3.0
3.0
1.5
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GRT_EFIS/message/85
GRT EFIS Display actual 1.2A we specify 1.5A full brightness
8
Autopilot- DigiTrak II VSGV
0
0
2.0
2.0
0
DigiflightIIInstalManual1.pdf, page 9, pin 6 description
Vertical Power Device Current Draw Worksheet (Beta).
The autopilot itself draws less than 0.5 ampere. Most of the current
required by the autopilot system is used by the servos (up to 1A per
servo).
10
Whelen A600 Position Lights (Fwd Red/Green & Aft facing white)
0
0
7.4
7.4
0
Whelen Anti-Collision Light Systems Installation and Service Manual,
August 1, 1996. Page 10 for A600-PG and PR Anti Collision Wingtip strobe
light head assembly with forward and tail position lights.
The 14 volt forward position lights draw 1.9amps each, the tail position
lights draw 1.8amps each for TOTAL = 7.4amps in a 14volt DC system.
11
Strobe Lights
0
0
7.0
7.0
0
Whelen Anti-Collision Light Systems Installation and Service Manual,
August 1, 1996. Page 6
Strobe 7.0 amps @ 14 volts.
12
Glareshield -panel flood light (Red/White LED strip)
0.16
0.16
0.16
0.16
0
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/flexibleLED_red12.php
13
Landing Lights (using two Sylvania Tru-Aim Titan Halogen bulbs)
0
0
10.8
0.0
0
Sylvania Tru-Aim Titan Halogen bulbs Part # 65MR16/T/FL40(FPB) 12V,
GU5.3
= (2 bulbs x 65W) / 12 volts = 10.8amps
Amps = Watts/Volts
14
Compass light (SIRS Navigator NV2C-2400
0.02
0.02
0.02
0.02
0.02
Uses a Blue LED, so assuming 20ma draw.
15
Pitot Heater (Aero Instruments AN5812, 12V, 10Amp)
0
0
8.00
0
0
http://www.gretzaero.com/pitotamps.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html#Pitot%20Heating
Zero for endurance bus mode, assuming intermittent load.
16
Com1 / NAV 1: GNS 430W - Garmin
2.0
2.0
2.0
2.0
0
gns-430w install manual rev G.pdf, page 3-11, section 3.12 Electrical
Load Analysis
GNS430W main power (P4001 Connector) = 1.60 amps typical / 2.5A max
@14VDC.
COM Power (P4002 Connector) = RX: 4mA typical / 15mA max. Tx: 3.25A
typical / 6.0 A max.
Assumed typical values and eliminated intermittent RX & TX loads. Used
1.6 x 125% factor = 2.0 amps continuous load (typical).
Battery only plan will use handheld radio with ship=92s antenna.
17
Com 2 / NAV 2: SL-30 Comm - Garmin
0
0
0.60
0.60
0
Apollo SL30 Installation Manual.pdf, page 41, Section 3 -
Specifications.
Input current VHF Navigation Input = 325mA typical / 500mA max
@13.75VDC
Input current COMM Input = 270mA typical / 2A max at 13.75VDC RECEIVE
2.1A typical / 3.2A max
at 13.75VDC TRANSMIT
Battery only plan will use handheld radio with ship=92s antenna.
18
Transponder - T-22 Trig Avionics
0.34
0.34
0.34
0.34
0
T22 Brochure and SouthEast Aerospace Web siteWeb site
idle: 0.15 A, active: 0.34 A
19
Audio Panel - PS Engineering PMA8000BT
0
0
2.5
2.5
0
PMA8000BT Installation Manual.pdf, page 1-2, Section 1-5 Specifications.
Maximum current 2.5 Amp (Externally protected by a 5A pull-type
breaker)..including internal lighting. Will shut off the audio panel to
shed load if have to switch to endurance bus.
20
EFIS Backup (Dynon D6)
0
0.0
1.0
1.0
0
EFIS-D6 Installation Guide.pdf
The EFIS-D6 system-wide power requirement is 8 watts typical and 13
watts maximum. On a 12-volt system, this translates to about 1 amp of
maximum current draw.
Dynon D-6 will use it=92s own internal backup battery for Endurance Bus
& Batt Only scenarios.
21
AOAPro CPU - Advanced Flight Systems
0.5
0.5
0.5
0.5
0
Page 110 of AOA Manual Rev 4.pdf
22
Fuel Transfer - PPAV Smart Switch & Fadec Fuel pumps for auxiliary wing
tanks
0
0
0
0
0
Excluded due to intermittent load.
TOTALS
8.9
6.1
49.0
30.1
3.8
Thanks for your comments!
Howard
Howard M. Plevyak Jr.
Cincinnati, Ohio
hplevyak@me.com
GlaStar Kit # 5615
Message 7
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Subject: | Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - using |
Z13/8 architecture
Folks,
I finished an initial version of my electrical load analysis. I'd like to get
some feedback on this from the list.
My mission profile is as follows:
Primary Day/Night VFR cross country machine with long term plans to complete a
North & South America round the continent flight.
Capable of IFR flight to complete cross country trip as weather deteriorates.
I don't want to get stuck at an airport, but also don't plan to use this machine
for extended HARD IFR.
Equipment:
Superior XP360 engine, w/ Carburetor and fixed pitch Sensenich prop
Dual Lightspeed Plasma III Capacitor Discharge Ignition system (CDI)
Dual Grand Rapids Technology GRT - EFIS HX displays
PMA8000 BT Audio panel
GNS430W - Com1 / Nav1
SL30 - Com2 / Nav2
GRT Engine Information System (EIS) 4000
Trig Avionics T22 Transponder
Dynon D6 - backup ADI, A/S, Altimeter w/ it's own internal backup battery
TruTrak Autopilot Digiflight II - VSGV
Main (15 gal) + Auxiliary Wing Tanks (10 gal each) for total of 50 gal. fuel
B&C L-40 main alternator (40 amps)
B&C SD8 backup alternator (plan SD8 to provide 6 to 9 amps @ 2400 prop RPM, and
5.4 to 7 amps @ 2100 rpm). Note the Sensenich prop has an rpm continuous operation
restriction from 2150 to 2350 rpm.
Z13/8 architecture as base
Questions I have:
1) Are these current draws for the equipment listed about right? I've listed
the source for each in the spreadsheet.
2) What is the maximum continuous operation amperage level to use for both the
B&C L-40 and SD8 alternators?
3) Is there equipment on the endurance bus that should be excluded?
4) Is it typical to include the audio panel on the e-Bus? Or just include Com1/Nav1
when switching to the endurance bus?
5) What other questions should I be asking?
Thanks for your comments!
Howard
Howard M. Plevyak Jr.
Cincinnati, Ohio
hplevyak@me.com
GlaStar Kit # 5615
Message 8
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Group=2C
Regarding my order=2C I simply asked for 5 colors of
5 sizes (3=2C4=2C5=2C6 & 7mm). 5 colors X 5 sizes = 25
pieces=2C each piece 10 M long. Simple as that.
It took a few days=2C but she got back to me with
a pretty good price. I paid by way of PayPal.
I think I need some more 2mm stuff. This is an area
I think I may have overlooked.
You guys that want to order something=2C might try
sending Lisa a message via eBay (if cnbestone@gmail.com
doesn't work out). You might also try the "contact us"
tab on their Hobby Dream website. My emails back and
forth to her were by way of the eBay message forum.
Thanks for the kudos=2C Mike Sharp. I try to be helpful=2C
I really do. But=2C like many=2C sometimes when we offer
what we think is useful information=2C tips=2C pointers=2C etc=2C
it sometimes backfires on us. Inevitably=2C somebody will
point out my errors=2C blunders=2C or flaws. Then=2C I wonder
why I even try to offer anything=2C 'cause now I look like
a fool. :-(
I am somewhat new to this chat site. I still find it
hard to believe such a wonderful resource is available
to the pilots and airplane builders. Electronics always
has been a huge passion of mine=2C even though I spent most
of my life in the construction field.
Being able to build little electronic circuits=2C and
have them actually work is a dream come true. 36 years ago=2C
I took an electronics training course in the Air Force.
For 35+ years=2C I have always wanted to "play" with electronic
circuits=2C and the Aeroelectric forum gives me the information
and resources to be able to finally do that. For that=2C I am
VERY grateful!
I personally recognize there are a select few guys that
take the time to be helpful. They don't have to=2C they just do.
When someone asks a question=2C they spend their valuable time
trying to help out. Nice!!
Mike Welch
Do Not Archive
Message 9
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Subject: | Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. |
Bob and all,
I notice in Z-10/8 (as an example) that some trigger circuits are protected
and some are not.
Starter contactor trigger - shows 7A protection.
E-Bus alternate feed relay trigger - shows no protection (just 22AWG)
Battery contactor trigger - shows no protection (just 22AWG)
Brownout battery relay (triggered from start switch) - shows no protection
(just 20AWG)
I know the Z-figures are not to be taken as anything other than architecture
guidance, but is there a rule of thumb on protecting some of my
relay-closing switch circuits?
Thanks in advance.
--
Andrew Zachar
andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com
Message 10
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Thanks, Mike
Appreciate it!!
Ed
From: Mike Welch
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink
Group,
Regarding my order, I simply asked for 5 colors of
5 sizes (3,4,5,6 & 7mm). 5 colors X 5 sizes = 25
pieces, each piece 10 M long. Simple as that.
It took a few days, but she got back to me with
a pretty good price. I paid by way of PayPal.
I think I need some more 2mm stuff. This is an area
I think I may have overlooked.
You guys that want to order something, might try
sending Lisa a message via eBay (if cnbestone@gmail.com
doesn't work out). You might also try the "contact us"
tab on their Hobby Dream website. My emails back and
forth to her were by way of the eBay message forum.
Thanks for the kudos, Mike Sharp. I try to be helpful,
I really do. But, like many, sometimes when we offer
what we think is useful information, tips, pointers, etc,
it sometimes backfires on us. Inevitably, somebody will
point out my errors, blunders, or flaws. Then, I wonder
why I even try to offer anything, 'cause now I look like
a fool. :-(
I am somewhat new to this chat site. I still find it
hard to believe such a wonderful resource is available
to the pilots and airplane builders. Electronics always
has been a huge passion of mine, even though I spent most
of my life in the construction field.
Being able to build little electronic circuits, and
have them actually work is a dream come true. 36 years ago,
I took an electronics training course in the Air Force.
For 35+ years, I have always wanted to "play" with electronic
circuits, and the Aeroelectric forum gives me the information
and resources to be able to finally do that. For that, I am
VERY grateful!
I personally recognize there are a select few guys that
take the time to be helpful. They don't have to, they just do.
When someone asks a question, they spend their valuable time
trying to help out. Nice!!
Mike Welch
Do Not Archive
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Subject: | Re: Very Simple Question about landing lights, wire |
size, and circuit protection.
At 04:26 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
Hey, everyone.
I have a pretty simple (ha!) question regarding the set up of a
landing light arrangement for my in-work RV-7.
Yes my friend, it IS pretty simple . . .
I've just ordered a set of 2 55W HID lights
(http://www.ddmtuning.com/Products/Apexcone-Raptor-HID-Kit) and I'm
starting to think about wiring for one light in each wing (or
wingtip). (Note: The lights haven't arrived, and the instructions
there might give some guidance, but I thought I'd ask anyway...)
Question: These are listed as "55W" kits obviously
intended to drop-in replace halogen 55W incandescent
bulbs. But do they DRAW 55 Watts of power in operation?
I'm not familiar with this product so I have no
first hand information. It occurs to me that the power
demand may be different than what the kit title suggests.
Using page 1-3 of the 'connection as a guide, I'm going to assume
these lights are really designed for 13.0 volts. Nominally, My 55W
lights will pull A=W/V or 55/13.0 or 4.23A. I see from the wiring
table later that 22 gauge will hold 5 A and has a resistance of 16.1
Ohms per 1000 feet. At 24 feet, I get 0.3864 Ohms.
<snip>
That seems like a nice small loss. So, I'll go with 18 gauge wire
(not that much heavier than 22ga, which could technically hold the
4.23A, but maybe not with startup loads.
You're to be commended for going through this exercise.
It demonstrates your willingness to understand the
simple-ideas that govern performance and to craft
a plan that is not compromised by some overlooked
variable.
In practice, the legacy breaker vs. wire selection
criteria is VERY conservative. For small airplanes,
the system integrator very seldom needs to worry
about voltage drop in wires. You cited 24 foot runs,
is this a round-trip for power+ground? In a metal
airplane it's fine to ground remotely located accessories
locally. Dropping to 12 foot runs REALLY quashes
worries about voltage drops.
So now I have two runs of 18 ga wire each carrying about 5 amps. I
think the default answer of the list will be to separately protect
the circuits with their own fuses in a fuse-block, but, for the sake
of discussion, let's pretend I really want to run them through a
singe breaker on the panel (or a breaker switch)...again, just for discussion.
This isn't a current ratings discussion. It's
a failure tolerance discussion. If you'd like to
have no single point of failure for both lamps,
then separate fuses is called for. A single 2-pole
switch adds some risk for single-point failure but
its tiny.
At 4.23 Amps per side, I could use a fuse or circuit breaker (per the
table) for 18 ga, which is 10A. But I may trip the breaker if warm-up
current is higher than 4.23A+4.23A. If I bump up the breaker to 12.5A
or 15A, I'm now not adequately (more rise in wire temp before
tripping) the 18 ga wire. Right?
You cited inrush currents as a concern. If you
were using real, 55W incandescent lamps, inrush
can be 10x normal running current. Fuses are subject
to "wear out" by repeated overloads even if it takes
100 cycles to ultimately fail the fuse. Your HID
lamps almost certainly don't exhibit this magnitude
of inrush. So a pair of 7A fuses/breakers driving 20AWG wires
is just fine.
So, if I really want to run them both through the same breaker or
switch-breaker, I need to bump up the wire size so the warm-up loads
(is assuming 1.5x the steady state load a good estimate for startup
loads?) of ~7A x 2 lights or 14A can be handled. Does that push me to
a 15A breaker and therefore 14 ga wire?
Wouldn't do that to maintain widest practical separation
between the two lamps.
Am I on the right track here? I seem to be leading myself to 20 ga
(7A) or 18 ga (10A) wire with independent fuse protection, but a DPST
switch controlling both, but I'm curious about the logic behind
combining them in a breaker anyhow.
You've zeroed in on it . . . The only suggestion
I have is to confirm there REAL running current.
But in any case stay with 20AWG/7A protection.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Very Simple Question about landing lights, wire |
size, and circuit protection.
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> But do they DRAW 55 Watts of power in operation?
>
A gentlemen on the VAF forums was kind enough to point me to these lights,
and at $30, even if they don't perform well in an airplane, I figured it
would be a good investigative exercise for me (and the aeroeletric list).
I'll try to gather up some data on the lights and report back.
> You cited 24 foot runs, is this a round-trip for power+ground?
>
Yes, it was for round trip, but only because I was ignoring the convention
that these kinds of loads can be locally grounded. I know this next question
can open up a pretty large (and already covered in some of your articles)
conversation about the pro and cons of running grounds back.
Even if these loads, which are typically grounded locally don't normally
contribute to noise, if I have the room (and presumably excess useful load)
for it, is it bad to run the grounds back? I'm guessing it's no worse than
grounding locally, it may even be negligibly better in terms of noise, but
more of a "bad form" given that I'm adding more weight and complexity for a
small (if anything other than perceived) benefit. I'm getting stuck on the
"normally these aren't suspects for noise generation" and "maybe I can
absolutely prevent any noise by running the grounds back." My lack of
knowledge about potential noise issues is showing again. Sorry. (I need to
brush up on the section of AEC again...)
> This isn't a current ratings discussion. It's
> a failure tolerance discussion. If you'd like to
> have no single point of failure for both lamps,
> then separate fuses is called for. A single 2-pole
> switch adds some risk for single-point failure but
> its tiny.
For me, it is actually failure tolerance versus aesthetics and switch space.
I'm using your philosophy that I should assume everything in the airplane
will fail, and the failure of anything in the airplane doesn't prevent me
from safely continuing (or just completing) a flight. I prefer one switch
for the landing lights and I think I'm okay with a single point of failure
(whether it be a DPDT switch or a switch-breaker) given that the failure is
just a no-landing-light landing. (I may still put a taxi light out in the
wing tip separate from these HIDs...that would provide me at least a little
light in the case of my single failure. I better be careful though, I may
end up being lit up like a Christmas tree.)
Your HID lamps almost certainly don't exhibit this magnitude
> of inrush. So a pair of 7A fuses/breakers driving 20AWG wires
> is just fine.
My lack of experience all things electrical is showing here. I think an
investigation of the lamps and their inrush versus steady state loads when
they arrive will yield some education on my side and some data for the list.
> The only suggestion I have is to confirm there REAL running current.
> But in any case stay with 20AWG/7A protection.
>
I'll do just that.
Thank you for the great guidance, as usual. I'll report back soon.
--
Andrew Zachar
andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com
Message 13
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Thanks guys;
My bit of education for the day. I'd never heard of doing that before, just
never thought I guess. I've always used a 1000 degree industrial pin point
heat gun or a butane micro torch, but heat is heat and I suppose a soldering
iron is as good a source as any.
Also thank you for posting all of the info on your supplier, it's
appreciated
Bob McC
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Welch
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 11:22 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink
Mike & Bob,
Exactly. I don't have a heat gun. I just use the soldering iron. I
find it works very easily....except for the cheapie heatshrink, which
will melt and stick to it. (moral; don't use the cheapie heatshrink)
Yes, I would say this is likely the thinwall stuff. You'd have to ask
them if they carry any other kind. : )
Mike Welch
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