---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/11/11: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:39 AM - Re: heatshrink (Mike Welch) 2. 07:02 AM - Re: Heatshrink (Jim Wickert) 3. 07:06 AM - BOM Order form? heatshrink (Ed Anderson) 4. 07:14 AM - Re: heatshrink (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 5. 07:51 AM - Re: BOM Order form? heatshrink (Michael Sharp) 6. 08:53 AM - Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - GlaStar using Z13/8 architecture (Howard M. Plevyak Jr.) 7. 09:39 AM - Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - using Z13/8 architecture (Howard M. Plevyak Jr.) 8. 10:16 AM - Re: heatshrink (Mike Welch) 9. 03:28 PM - Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. (Andrew Zachar) 10. 04:31 PM - Re: heatshrink (Ed Anderson) 11. 06:31 PM - Re: Very Simple Question about landing lights, wire size, and circuit protection. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 07:01 PM - Re: Very Simple Question about landing lights, wire size, and circuit protection. (Andrew Zachar) 13. 10:10 PM - Re: Heatshrink (Bob McCallum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:35 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Group=2C Just a quick FYI=2C I got an acknowledgement from Lisa regarding you guys ordering heatshrink from her. She said no problem=2C send her your li sts. Also=2C she mentioned she may have to bump the shipping charge up a bit. Evidently=2C shipping a box stuffed full of heatshrink=2C large enough to f it a small turkey=2C all the way from China=2C costs a little more than $2. Referring to shrinking again=2C I personally couldn't imagine an easier w ay to shrink it=2C than with a soldering iron. Providing you have the good stuff =2C it shrinks like it supposed to. It would seem like a lot more hassle (to me) to use a heat gun=2C lighter=2C torch=2C or anything else. I'm not critizing=2C if your way works for you=2C great=2C but I find it pretty simple to use the iron. 10 seconds and its done....and nothing else gets heated up i n the process. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:02 AM PST US From: "Jim Wickert" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink Mike and others Simple means is your wife's or girlfriends hair dryer... when she is out... works great no problems with touching the tube. Mike who do we contact for ordering ? Thanks. Jim Wickert Tel 920-467-0219 Cell 920-912-1014 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:22 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink Mike & Bob, Exactly. I don't have a heat gun. I just use the soldering iron. I find it works very easily....except for the cheapie heatshrink, which will melt and stick to it. (moral; don't use the cheapie heatshrink) Yes, I would say this is likely the thinwall stuff. You'd have to ask them if they carry any other kind. : ) Mike Welch _____ From: mike@bmnellis.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink A soldering iron could come into contact with the heat shrink if you were using the iron to shrink the tubing. I do this quite frequently and it typically works quite well. Mike Mike; Looks like a great deal on the heatshrink, but I'm assuming this is not the heavy dual wall heatshrink but only the lightweight kind?? If that's correct do they also carry the dual wall type? I'd be interested in some of that. Please provide the source details to the list. Also, please excuse my stupidity, but why would a hot soldering iron be coming in contact with your heatshrink?? This is the first time I've heard of this concern. If you're soldering rather than crimping connections, the soldering would normally be done with the heatshrink some distance up the wire, then after the soldered joint has cooled the tubing would be slipped into place and then shrunk with hot air from a heat gun. The soldering iron would have no reason to be anywhere near the heatshrink, or am I missing something?? Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph & Maria Finch Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 8:46 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink That..is a lot of heatshrink. What's the company's name? RF I'm nearing the completion of all the various wiring requirements for my plane. I've used up most of my heatshrink, but I needed a bit more. I looked online (eBay) and found an RC Hobby Shop that had MANY heatshrink selections for sale. (I think they are in Hong Kong) I bought several of the smaller sizes around Christmas. Many of the 1 mm to 3 mm sizes were $.99 -$1.50 each........all of each size was 10 meters long!! Yes, 10 meters long of 1/8" polyolefin for a buck, and this includes shipping. I was so pleased with my initial order(especially the quality of the product), I ordered LOTS more!! In fact, I ordered 5 different colors X 5 different sizes. I ought to have enough heatshrink to last me from now on! I have used this heatshrink. It works VERY well, I am very pleased with it. It is not especially heat sensitive....that is, it doesn't melt and stick to the soldering iron, that the Radio Shack heatshrink I have does. It shrinks just like the normal high quality stuff you'd expect. In other words....it ain't junk!! As I said, my order arrived today. 25 pcs of 10M heatshink. 5 different colors, in 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm sizes. Cost? $27 total, including shipping. If anyone is in need of a great bargain on heatshrink, let me know, and I can forward their company info on to you. Here's a picture of the shipment I got today. (see picture) Best regards, Mike Welch - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:47 AM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: BOM Order form? AeroElectric-List: heatshrink What a great find on Heat Shrink, Mike - thanks for sharing Would you happened to have a copy of your order - material specifications (sizes) that you ordered. From your description, it sounds like what I need and would save me the trouble of having to research (yes, lazy!) it. thanks Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Mike Welch Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:33 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Group, Just a quick FYI, I got an acknowledgement from Lisa regarding you guys ordering heatshrink from her. She said no problem, send her your lists. Also, she mentioned she may have to bump the shipping charge up a bit. Evidently, shipping a box stuffed full of heatshrink, large enough to fit a small turkey, all the way from China, costs a little more than $2. Referring to shrinking again, I personally couldn't imagine an easier way to shrink it, than with a soldering iron. Providing you have the good stuff, it shrinks like it supposed to. It would seem like a lot more hassle (to me) to use a heat gun, lighter, torch, or anything else. I'm not critizing, if your way works for you, great, but I find it pretty simple to use the iron. 10 seconds and its done....and nothing else gets heated up in the process. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:54 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Mike, Does Lisa have her own email address or is it the general one on the website? Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:33 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Group, Just a quick FYI, I got an acknowledgement from Lisa regarding you guys ordering heatshrink from her. She said no problem, send her your lists. Also, she mentioned she may have to bump the shipping charge up a bit. Evidently, shipping a box stuffed full of heatshrink, large enough to fit a small turkey, all the way from China, costs a little more than $2. Referring to shrinking again, I personally couldn't imagine an easier way to shrink it, than with a soldering iron. Providing you have the good stuff, it shrinks like it supposed to. It would seem like a lot more hassle (to me) to use a heat gun, lighter, torch, or anything else. I'm not critizing, if your way works for you, great, but I find it pretty simple to use the iron. 10 seconds and its done....and nothing else gets heated up in the process. Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:17 AM PST US From: Michael Sharp Subject: Re: BOM Order form? AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Hey, I know from experience that Mike is a resourceful guy..... =0A=0AHe ha s done the leg work for alot of us on the Kolb list...=0A=0AMy Dad used to say, Laziness is the mother of invention!!!=0A=0ADo Not Archive..=0A=0AMike =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, Jan uary 11, 2011 9:04:06 AM=0ASubject: BOM Order form? AeroElectric-List: heat shrink=0A=0A=0AWhat a great find on Heat Shrink, Mike - thanks for sharing =0A-=0AWould you happened to have a copy of your order - material specifi cations =0A(sizes) that you ordered.- From your description, it sounds li ke what I need and =0Awould save me the trouble of having to research (yes, lazy!) it.=0A-=0Athanks=0A-=0AEd=0AEdward L. Anderson=0AAnderson Elect ronic Enterprises LLC=0A305 Reefton Road=0AWeddington, NC 28104=0Ahttp://ww w.andersonee.com=0Ahttp://www.eicommander.com=0A=0A=0AFrom: Mike Welch =0AS ent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:33 AM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.co m =0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink=0A=0AGroup,=0A-=0A- Jus t a quick FYI, I got an acknowledgement from Lisa regarding you=0Aguys orde ring heatshrink from her.- She said no problem, send her your lists.=0A -=0A- Also, she mentioned she may have to bump the shipping charge up a bit.=0AEvidently, shipping a box stuffed full of heatshrink,-large enoug h to fit a =0Asmall turkey,=0Aall the way from China, costs a little more t han $2.- =0A-=0A- Referring to shrinking again, I personally couldn't imagine an easier way to =0Ashrink it, than with a soldering iron.- Prov iding you have the good stuff, it =0Ashrinks=0Alike it supposed to.- It w ould seem like a lot more hassle (to me) to use a heat =0Agun, =0A=0Alighte r, torch, or anything else.=0A- I'm not critizing, if your way works for you, great, but I find it pretty =0Asimple to=0Ause the iron.- 10 seconds and its done....and nothing else gets heated up in the =0Aprocess.=0A- =0AMike Welch=0A=0A =0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElec tric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A href="http://www. ============ =0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:05 AM PST US From: "Howard M. Plevyak Jr." Subject: AeroElectric-List: Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - GlaStar using Z13/8 architecture Folks, I finished an initial version of my electrical load analysis. I'd like to get some feedback on this from the list. My mission profile is as follows: Primary Day/Night VFR cross country machine with long term plans to complete a North & South America round the continent flight. Capable of IFR flight to complete cross country trip as weather deteriorates. I don't want to get stuck at an airport, but also don't plan to use this machine for extended HARD IFR. Equipment: Superior XP360 engine, w/ Carburetor and fixed pitch Sensenich prop Dual Lightspeed Plasma III Capacitor Discharge Ignition system (CDI) Dual Grand Rapids Technology GRT - EFIS HX displays PMA8000 BT Audio panel GNS430W - Com1 / Nav1 SL30 - Com2 / Nav2 GRT Engine Information System (EIS) 4000 Trig Avionics T22 Transponder Dynon D6 - backup ADI, A/S, Altimeter w/ it's own internal backup battery TruTrak Autopilot Digiflight II - VSGV Main (15 gal) + Auxiliary Wing Tanks (10 gal each) for total of 50 gal. fuel B&C L-40 main alternator (40 amps) B&C SD8 backup alternator (plan SD8 to provide 6 to 9 amps @ 2400 prop RPM, and 5.4 to 7 amps @ 2100 rpm). Note the Sensenich prop has an rpm continuous operation restriction from 2150 to 2350 rpm. Z13/8 architecture as base Questions I have: 1) Are these current draws for the equipment listed about right? I've listed the source for each in the spreadsheet. 2) What is the maximum continuous operation amperage level to use for both the B&C L-40 and SD8 alternators? 3) Is there equipment on the endurance bus that should be excluded? 4) Is it typical to include the audio panel on the e-Bus? Or just include Com1/Nav1 when switching to the endurance bus? 5) What other questions should I be asking? ID ITEM Option 1 Endurance Bus Load (B&C SD8 Alternator supported) Option 2 Endurance Bus Load (Exclude 2nd ignition, 2nd EFIS) Main Bus Load (B&C L40 Alternator) Main Bus Load (Shed pitot heat & landing light Battery Only (L40 & SD8 Inop) Source of current draw number. Comments 1 Battery Contactor 0 0 0.75 0.75 0.75 2 Lightspeed Plasma III Capacitor Discharge Ignition system 2.6 1.3 2.6 2.6 1.3 http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Products/IgnitionSpecs.htm Single LSE Plasma III ignition system draws 1.3a @13.8V. Klaus stated current increases as voltage supply decreases with a peak of 2.9a at about 9.4V and 3000rpm. 3 Engine Information System (EIS 4000) - Grand Rapids Technologies (.15 for EIS, and .1a for the warning light) 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-get.cgi?AeroElectric-Archive.dige st.vol-as Could reduce light amperage by going with an LED instead? Or eliminating it since it=92s already on the GRT display. 5 Electronic Flight Information System (EFIS) HX Displays - GRT (Dual displays in Endurance & Main modes, single display if need to further shed) 3.0 1.5 3.0 3.0 1.5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GRT_EFIS/message/85 GRT EFIS Display actual 1.2A we specify 1.5A full brightness 8 Autopilot- DigiTrak II VSGV 0 0 2.0 2.0 0 DigiflightIIInstalManual1.pdf, page 9, pin 6 description Vertical Power Device Current Draw Worksheet (Beta). The autopilot itself draws less than 0.5 ampere. Most of the current required by the autopilot system is used by the servos (up to 1A per servo). 10 Whelen A600 Position Lights (Fwd Red/Green & Aft facing white) 0 0 7.4 7.4 0 Whelen Anti-Collision Light Systems Installation and Service Manual, August 1, 1996. Page 10 for A600-PG and PR Anti Collision Wingtip strobe light head assembly with forward and tail position lights. The 14 volt forward position lights draw 1.9amps each, the tail position lights draw 1.8amps each for TOTAL = 7.4amps in a 14volt DC system. 11 Strobe Lights 0 0 7.0 7.0 0 Whelen Anti-Collision Light Systems Installation and Service Manual, August 1, 1996. Page 6 Strobe 7.0 amps @ 14 volts. 12 Glareshield -panel flood light (Red/White LED strip) 0.16 0.16 0.16 0.16 0 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/flexibleLED_red12.php 13 Landing Lights (using two Sylvania Tru-Aim Titan Halogen bulbs) 0 0 10.8 0.0 0 Sylvania Tru-Aim Titan Halogen bulbs Part # 65MR16/T/FL40(FPB) 12V, GU5.3 = (2 bulbs x 65W) / 12 volts = 10.8amps Amps = Watts/Volts 14 Compass light (SIRS Navigator NV2C-2400 0.02 0.02 0.02 0.02 0.02 Uses a Blue LED, so assuming 20ma draw. 15 Pitot Heater (Aero Instruments AN5812, 12V, 10Amp) 0 0 8.00 0 0 http://www.gretzaero.com/pitotamps.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html#Pitot%20Heating Zero for endurance bus mode, assuming intermittent load. 16 Com1 / NAV 1: GNS 430W - Garmin 2.0 2.0 2.0 2.0 0 gns-430w install manual rev G.pdf, page 3-11, section 3.12 Electrical Load Analysis GNS430W main power (P4001 Connector) = 1.60 amps typical / 2.5A max @14VDC. COM Power (P4002 Connector) = RX: 4mA typical / 15mA max. Tx: 3.25A typical / 6.0 A max. Assumed typical values and eliminated intermittent RX & TX loads. Used 1.6 x 125% factor = 2.0 amps continuous load (typical). Battery only plan will use handheld radio with ship=92s antenna. 17 Com 2 / NAV 2: SL-30 Comm - Garmin 0 0 0.60 0.60 0 Apollo SL30 Installation Manual.pdf, page 41, Section 3 - Specifications. Input current VHF Navigation Input = 325mA typical / 500mA max @13.75VDC Input current COMM Input = 270mA typical / 2A max at 13.75VDC RECEIVE 2.1A typical / 3.2A max at 13.75VDC TRANSMIT Battery only plan will use handheld radio with ship=92s antenna. 18 Transponder - T-22 Trig Avionics 0.34 0.34 0.34 0.34 0 T22 Brochure and SouthEast Aerospace Web siteWeb site idle: 0.15 A, active: 0.34 A 19 Audio Panel - PS Engineering PMA8000BT 0 0 2.5 2.5 0 PMA8000BT Installation Manual.pdf, page 1-2, Section 1-5 Specifications. Maximum current 2.5 Amp (Externally protected by a 5A pull-type breaker)..including internal lighting. Will shut off the audio panel to shed load if have to switch to endurance bus. 20 EFIS Backup (Dynon D6) 0 0.0 1.0 1.0 0 EFIS-D6 Installation Guide.pdf The EFIS-D6 system-wide power requirement is 8 watts typical and 13 watts maximum. On a 12-volt system, this translates to about 1 amp of maximum current draw. Dynon D-6 will use it=92s own internal backup battery for Endurance Bus & Batt Only scenarios. 21 AOAPro CPU - Advanced Flight Systems 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 Page 110 of AOA Manual Rev 4.pdf 22 Fuel Transfer - PPAV Smart Switch & Fadec Fuel pumps for auxiliary wing tanks 0 0 0 0 0 Excluded due to intermittent load. TOTALS 8.9 6.1 49.0 30.1 3.8 Thanks for your comments! Howard Howard M. Plevyak Jr. Cincinnati, Ohio hplevyak@me.com GlaStar Kit # 5615 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:48 AM PST US From: "Howard M. Plevyak Jr." Subject: AeroElectric-List: Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - using Z13/8 architecture Folks, I finished an initial version of my electrical load analysis. I'd like to get some feedback on this from the list. My mission profile is as follows: Primary Day/Night VFR cross country machine with long term plans to complete a North & South America round the continent flight. Capable of IFR flight to complete cross country trip as weather deteriorates. I don't want to get stuck at an airport, but also don't plan to use this machine for extended HARD IFR. Equipment: Superior XP360 engine, w/ Carburetor and fixed pitch Sensenich prop Dual Lightspeed Plasma III Capacitor Discharge Ignition system (CDI) Dual Grand Rapids Technology GRT - EFIS HX displays PMA8000 BT Audio panel GNS430W - Com1 / Nav1 SL30 - Com2 / Nav2 GRT Engine Information System (EIS) 4000 Trig Avionics T22 Transponder Dynon D6 - backup ADI, A/S, Altimeter w/ it's own internal backup battery TruTrak Autopilot Digiflight II - VSGV Main (15 gal) + Auxiliary Wing Tanks (10 gal each) for total of 50 gal. fuel B&C L-40 main alternator (40 amps) B&C SD8 backup alternator (plan SD8 to provide 6 to 9 amps @ 2400 prop RPM, and 5.4 to 7 amps @ 2100 rpm). Note the Sensenich prop has an rpm continuous operation restriction from 2150 to 2350 rpm. Z13/8 architecture as base Questions I have: 1) Are these current draws for the equipment listed about right? I've listed the source for each in the spreadsheet. 2) What is the maximum continuous operation amperage level to use for both the B&C L-40 and SD8 alternators? 3) Is there equipment on the endurance bus that should be excluded? 4) Is it typical to include the audio panel on the e-Bus? Or just include Com1/Nav1 when switching to the endurance bus? 5) What other questions should I be asking? Thanks for your comments! Howard Howard M. Plevyak Jr. Cincinnati, Ohio hplevyak@me.com GlaStar Kit # 5615 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:41 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Group=2C Regarding my order=2C I simply asked for 5 colors of 5 sizes (3=2C4=2C5=2C6 & 7mm). 5 colors X 5 sizes = 25 pieces=2C each piece 10 M long. Simple as that. It took a few days=2C but she got back to me with a pretty good price. I paid by way of PayPal. I think I need some more 2mm stuff. This is an area I think I may have overlooked. You guys that want to order something=2C might try sending Lisa a message via eBay (if cnbestone@gmail.com doesn't work out). You might also try the "contact us" tab on their Hobby Dream website. My emails back and forth to her were by way of the eBay message forum. Thanks for the kudos=2C Mike Sharp. I try to be helpful=2C I really do. But=2C like many=2C sometimes when we offer what we think is useful information=2C tips=2C pointers=2C etc=2C it sometimes backfires on us. Inevitably=2C somebody will point out my errors=2C blunders=2C or flaws. Then=2C I wonder why I even try to offer anything=2C 'cause now I look like a fool. :-( I am somewhat new to this chat site. I still find it hard to believe such a wonderful resource is available to the pilots and airplane builders. Electronics always has been a huge passion of mine=2C even though I spent most of my life in the construction field. Being able to build little electronic circuits=2C and have them actually work is a dream come true. 36 years ago=2C I took an electronics training course in the Air Force. For 35+ years=2C I have always wanted to "play" with electronic circuits=2C and the Aeroelectric forum gives me the information and resources to be able to finally do that. For that=2C I am VERY grateful! I personally recognize there are a select few guys that take the time to be helpful. They don't have to=2C they just do. When someone asks a question=2C they spend their valuable time trying to help out. Nice!! Mike Welch Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:32 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. From: Andrew Zachar Bob and all, I notice in Z-10/8 (as an example) that some trigger circuits are protected and some are not. Starter contactor trigger - shows 7A protection. E-Bus alternate feed relay trigger - shows no protection (just 22AWG) Battery contactor trigger - shows no protection (just 22AWG) Brownout battery relay (triggered from start switch) - shows no protection (just 20AWG) I know the Z-figures are not to be taken as anything other than architecture guidance, but is there a rule of thumb on protecting some of my relay-closing switch circuits? Thanks in advance. -- Andrew Zachar andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:27 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Thanks, Mike Appreciate it!! Ed From: Mike Welch Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:09 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Group, Regarding my order, I simply asked for 5 colors of 5 sizes (3,4,5,6 & 7mm). 5 colors X 5 sizes = 25 pieces, each piece 10 M long. Simple as that. It took a few days, but she got back to me with a pretty good price. I paid by way of PayPal. I think I need some more 2mm stuff. This is an area I think I may have overlooked. You guys that want to order something, might try sending Lisa a message via eBay (if cnbestone@gmail.com doesn't work out). You might also try the "contact us" tab on their Hobby Dream website. My emails back and forth to her were by way of the eBay message forum. Thanks for the kudos, Mike Sharp. I try to be helpful, I really do. But, like many, sometimes when we offer what we think is useful information, tips, pointers, etc, it sometimes backfires on us. Inevitably, somebody will point out my errors, blunders, or flaws. Then, I wonder why I even try to offer anything, 'cause now I look like a fool. :-( I am somewhat new to this chat site. I still find it hard to believe such a wonderful resource is available to the pilots and airplane builders. Electronics always has been a huge passion of mine, even though I spent most of my life in the construction field. Being able to build little electronic circuits, and have them actually work is a dream come true. 36 years ago, I took an electronics training course in the Air Force. For 35+ years, I have always wanted to "play" with electronic circuits, and the Aeroelectric forum gives me the information and resources to be able to finally do that. For that, I am VERY grateful! I personally recognize there are a select few guys that take the time to be helpful. They don't have to, they just do. When someone asks a question, they spend their valuable time trying to help out. Nice!! Mike Welch Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Very Simple Question about landing lights, wire size, and circuit protection. At 04:26 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote: Hey, everyone. I have a pretty simple (ha!) question regarding the set up of a landing light arrangement for my in-work RV-7. Yes my friend, it IS pretty simple . . . I've just ordered a set of 2 55W HID lights (http://www.ddmtuning.com/Products/Apexcone-Raptor-HID-Kit) and I'm starting to think about wiring for one light in each wing (or wingtip). (Note: The lights haven't arrived, and the instructions there might give some guidance, but I thought I'd ask anyway...) Question: These are listed as "55W" kits obviously intended to drop-in replace halogen 55W incandescent bulbs. But do they DRAW 55 Watts of power in operation? I'm not familiar with this product so I have no first hand information. It occurs to me that the power demand may be different than what the kit title suggests. Using page 1-3 of the 'connection as a guide, I'm going to assume these lights are really designed for 13.0 volts. Nominally, My 55W lights will pull A=W/V or 55/13.0 or 4.23A. I see from the wiring table later that 22 gauge will hold 5 A and has a resistance of 16.1 Ohms per 1000 feet. At 24 feet, I get 0.3864 Ohms. That seems like a nice small loss. So, I'll go with 18 gauge wire (not that much heavier than 22ga, which could technically hold the 4.23A, but maybe not with startup loads. You're to be commended for going through this exercise. It demonstrates your willingness to understand the simple-ideas that govern performance and to craft a plan that is not compromised by some overlooked variable. In practice, the legacy breaker vs. wire selection criteria is VERY conservative. For small airplanes, the system integrator very seldom needs to worry about voltage drop in wires. You cited 24 foot runs, is this a round-trip for power+ground? In a metal airplane it's fine to ground remotely located accessories locally. Dropping to 12 foot runs REALLY quashes worries about voltage drops. So now I have two runs of 18 ga wire each carrying about 5 amps. I think the default answer of the list will be to separately protect the circuits with their own fuses in a fuse-block, but, for the sake of discussion, let's pretend I really want to run them through a singe breaker on the panel (or a breaker switch)...again, just for discussion. This isn't a current ratings discussion. It's a failure tolerance discussion. If you'd like to have no single point of failure for both lamps, then separate fuses is called for. A single 2-pole switch adds some risk for single-point failure but its tiny. At 4.23 Amps per side, I could use a fuse or circuit breaker (per the table) for 18 ga, which is 10A. But I may trip the breaker if warm-up current is higher than 4.23A+4.23A. If I bump up the breaker to 12.5A or 15A, I'm now not adequately (more rise in wire temp before tripping) the 18 ga wire. Right? You cited inrush currents as a concern. If you were using real, 55W incandescent lamps, inrush can be 10x normal running current. Fuses are subject to "wear out" by repeated overloads even if it takes 100 cycles to ultimately fail the fuse. Your HID lamps almost certainly don't exhibit this magnitude of inrush. So a pair of 7A fuses/breakers driving 20AWG wires is just fine. So, if I really want to run them both through the same breaker or switch-breaker, I need to bump up the wire size so the warm-up loads (is assuming 1.5x the steady state load a good estimate for startup loads?) of ~7A x 2 lights or 14A can be handled. Does that push me to a 15A breaker and therefore 14 ga wire? Wouldn't do that to maintain widest practical separation between the two lamps. Am I on the right track here? I seem to be leading myself to 20 ga (7A) or 18 ga (10A) wire with independent fuse protection, but a DPST switch controlling both, but I'm curious about the logic behind combining them in a breaker anyhow. You've zeroed in on it . . . The only suggestion I have is to confirm there REAL running current. But in any case stay with 20AWG/7A protection. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Very Simple Question about landing lights, wire size, and circuit protection. From: Andrew Zachar On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > But do they DRAW 55 Watts of power in operation? > A gentlemen on the VAF forums was kind enough to point me to these lights, and at $30, even if they don't perform well in an airplane, I figured it would be a good investigative exercise for me (and the aeroeletric list). I'll try to gather up some data on the lights and report back. > You cited 24 foot runs, is this a round-trip for power+ground? > Yes, it was for round trip, but only because I was ignoring the convention that these kinds of loads can be locally grounded. I know this next question can open up a pretty large (and already covered in some of your articles) conversation about the pro and cons of running grounds back. Even if these loads, which are typically grounded locally don't normally contribute to noise, if I have the room (and presumably excess useful load) for it, is it bad to run the grounds back? I'm guessing it's no worse than grounding locally, it may even be negligibly better in terms of noise, but more of a "bad form" given that I'm adding more weight and complexity for a small (if anything other than perceived) benefit. I'm getting stuck on the "normally these aren't suspects for noise generation" and "maybe I can absolutely prevent any noise by running the grounds back." My lack of knowledge about potential noise issues is showing again. Sorry. (I need to brush up on the section of AEC again...) > This isn't a current ratings discussion. It's > a failure tolerance discussion. If you'd like to > have no single point of failure for both lamps, > then separate fuses is called for. A single 2-pole > switch adds some risk for single-point failure but > its tiny. For me, it is actually failure tolerance versus aesthetics and switch space. I'm using your philosophy that I should assume everything in the airplane will fail, and the failure of anything in the airplane doesn't prevent me from safely continuing (or just completing) a flight. I prefer one switch for the landing lights and I think I'm okay with a single point of failure (whether it be a DPDT switch or a switch-breaker) given that the failure is just a no-landing-light landing. (I may still put a taxi light out in the wing tip separate from these HIDs...that would provide me at least a little light in the case of my single failure. I better be careful though, I may end up being lit up like a Christmas tree.) Your HID lamps almost certainly don't exhibit this magnitude > of inrush. So a pair of 7A fuses/breakers driving 20AWG wires > is just fine. My lack of experience all things electrical is showing here. I think an investigation of the lamps and their inrush versus steady state loads when they arrive will yield some education on my side and some data for the list. > The only suggestion I have is to confirm there REAL running current. > But in any case stay with 20AWG/7A protection. > I'll do just that. Thank you for the great guidance, as usual. I'll report back soon. -- Andrew Zachar andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:27 PM PST US From: Bob McCallum Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink Thanks guys; My bit of education for the day. I'd never heard of doing that before, just never thought I guess. I've always used a 1000 degree industrial pin point heat gun or a butane micro torch, but heat is heat and I suppose a soldering iron is as good a source as any. Also thank you for posting all of the info on your supplier, it's appreciated Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 11:22 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink Mike & Bob, Exactly. I don't have a heat gun. I just use the soldering iron. I find it works very easily....except for the cheapie heatshrink, which will melt and stick to it. (moral; don't use the cheapie heatshrink) Yes, I would say this is likely the thinwall stuff. You'd have to ask them if they carry any other kind. : ) Mike Welch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.