Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:59 AM - Re: heatshrink (Tony Babb)
2. 05:23 AM - Re: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:51 AM - Re: Heatshrink (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:36 AM - RCT3 crimper opoeration (Fergus Kyle)
5. 08:03 AM - Re: RCT3 crimper opoeration (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:47 AM - Re: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. (Andrew Zachar)
7. 09:10 AM - Open squelch (Tim Andres)
8. 09:25 AM - Re: RCT3 crimper opoeration (PHILLIPS I)
9. 09:37 AM - Re: heatshrink (Mike Welch)
10. 10:01 AM - Re: Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - using Z13/8 architecture (Jeff Page)
11. 08:44 PM - Re: Open squelch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 09:54 PM - Re: Open squelch (Tim Andres)
Message 1
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Mike/ anyone,
I'm a long way from starting my electrical installation, building a
Velocity
canard/composite. Was the order you placed sufficient for an entire
installation or was this a top-up after you'd already started. I have no
idea how much I'll need.
Thanks,
Tony Babb
Velocity SEFG 62% done, 78% to go
www.alejandra.net/velocity
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Welch
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:10 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink
Group,
Regarding my order, I simply asked for 5 colors of
5 sizes (3,4,5,6 & 7mm). 5 colors X 5 sizes = 25
pieces, each piece 10 M long. Simple as that.
It took a few days, but she got back to me with
a pretty good price. I paid by way of PayPal.
I think I need some more 2mm stuff. This is an area
I think I may have overlooked.
You guys that want to order something, might try
sending Lisa a message via eBay (if cnbestone@gmail.com
doesn't work out). You might also try the "contact us"
tab on their Hobby Dream website. My emails back and
forth to her were by way of the eBay message forum.
Thanks for the kudos, Mike Sharp. I try to be helpful,
I really do. But, like many, sometimes when we offer
what we think is useful information, tips, pointers, etc,
it sometimes backfires on us. Inevitably, somebody will
point out my errors, blunders, or flaws. Then, I wonder
why I even try to offer anything, 'cause now I look like
a fool. :-(
I am somewhat new to this chat site. I still find it
hard to believe such a wonderful resource is available
to the pilots and airplane builders. Electronics always
has been a huge passion of mine, even though I spent most
of my life in the construction field.
Being able to build little electronic circuits, and
have them actually work is a dream come true. 36 years ago,
I took an electronics training course in the Air Force.
For 35+ years, I have always wanted to "play" with electronic
circuits, and the Aeroelectric forum gives me the information
and resources to be able to finally do that. For that, I am
VERY grateful!
I personally recognize there are a select few guys that
take the time to be helpful. They don't have to, they just do.
When someone asks a question, they spend their valuable time
trying to help out. Nice!!
Mike Welch
Do Not Archive
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger |
circuits.
At 05:24 PM 1/11/2011, you wrote:
>Bob and all,
>
>I notice in Z-10/8 (as an example) that some trigger circuits are
>protected and some are not.
>
>Starter contactor trigger - shows 7A protection.
>E-Bus alternate feed relay trigger - shows no protection (just 22AWG)
>Battery contactor trigger - shows no protection (just 22AWG)
>Brownout battery relay (triggered from start switch) - shows no
>protection (just 20AWG)
>
>I know the Z-figures are not to be taken as anything other than
>architecture guidance, but is there a rule of thumb on protecting
>some of my relay-closing switch circuits?
Architecture drawings do not discount the
elegant use of circuit protection. Yes,
the rule of thumb is:
Any wire of significant length (6" or more
in the TC aircraft world) at risk for
damage due to faults in the system should
be protected from burning.
A review of Part 23
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/FAA/Part23_electrical_A.pdf
and in particular paragraph 23.1367
and Chapter 11 of AC43.13
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/FAA/AC43.13-1B_Ch11_Electrical.pdf
might be useful. But be aware that not all
words carved into FAA tablets of stone
are possible or practical. For example,
the words in paragraph 11-48 of AC43.13
are pretty much carved in peanut butter.
There is no such thing as a "rating" for
a wire's ability to carry current. There
is a WIDE band of operating conditions for
wires that do not necessarily put them
at risk for failure.
Circuit protection in the form of fuses and
breakers cannot be depended upon to "open
before any component downstream can overheat
and generate smoke or fire." Fuses and breakers
protect wires from hard faults (LOTS OF CURRENT)
and nothing more.
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/22AWG_20A.pdf
This 22AWG wire in the foreground has been
subjected to 20 amps of current flow until
temperatures stabilized. Note that the wire's
insulation has 38 degrees C headroom before
bumping it's published performance limits of
150C. Yet we commonly protect 22AWG wires at
5A. This is NOT because 22AWG wire is RATED
at 5A. The legacy design decision for protecting
22AWG wire at 5A is a very conservative decision
based on temperature rises in bundles, system
efficiency goals (voltage drops) and tolerance
for special cases where the wire might need to
pass through a hot-spot on the airframe.
This is why your exercise in wire sizing did
not yield any exciting pop-up revelations.
As a general rule, wires are much more tolerant
of abuse than the table we commonly apply to
new system design
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/Wire_Table.jpg
. . . these "ratings" are based on a paltry
10C temperature rise.
Now, armed with this simple-idea, run the
traps on what kind of fault would cause the
contactor control wires you've cited to become
exposed to high fault currents?
When these wires are used to pull down on
the grounds side of a relay, contactor or
most other devices, there are no conditions
of system failure that will subject these
wires to unlimited fault currents.
The most common failure in wiring is an
open circuit. The next most common failure
is a fault to ground. Faulting a supply wire
to ground exposes it to the potential fault
current of a battery . . . perhaps 1000 amps
or more. Faulting a ground-to-close control
wire to ground exposes it only to the current
it takes to close the contactor. Hence, no
protection is called for in these lines.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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At 11:52 PM 1/11/2011, you wrote:
>Thanks guys;
>
>My bit of education for the day. I'd never heard of doing that
>before, just never thought I guess. I've always used a 1000 degree
>industrial pin point heat gun or a butane micro torch, but heat is
>heat and I suppose a soldering iron is as good a source as any.
The most common form of heat shrink is made from
a polyolefin plastic that shrinks in the 120 to 130
degrees C range. This is higher than the outlet
temperature of most hair dryers . . . or at least it
should be.
Further, most hair dryers and general utility heat
guns have large diameter outlets that tend to waste
the energy by throwing it all over the place instead
of directing it onto a relatively focused point of
interest.
The really cool heat guns for electronics all have
relatively small exit nozzles for the hot air. The
Ungar Princess
Emacs!
Is one good case in point. This tool is only 250
watt rated and puts it's energy 'on the spot' as
opposed to blowing it around the room.
I've modified low cost heat guns my fabricating
a nozzle from an aluminum or steel funnel and
pop-riveting the modification to the guns outlet.
This has the compound useful effect of focused
energy output plus restricting airflow such that
air temperature rise on the LOW HEAT setting of
the heat gun is sufficient to the task.
I think the Harbor Freight used to sell a $10 tool
that was easily modified in this way. I'll look into
it and perhaps do a "comic book" on the modification.
My heat gun of current choice is the Milwaukee 2000D
that features an adjustable heat control. I've had this
Emacs!
tool for quite a few years. I think I bought it in
a hurry one night at Home Depot after my $high$
Princess blew up. The 2000D came with a concentrator
nozzle which I've lost at some point in time. This
tool is still made an sells for about $40.
I tried increasing the output temperature on a hair
dryer by restricting the air flow with a concentrator
nozzle. The temperature did indeed rise but it caused
an over-temp fuse to blow inside the tool. I opened
the tool and bypassed the fuse. It sorta worked but
the labor to convert it to a real shrink-gun wasn't
worth the effort. You're better off starting with
a real heat gun of some variety.
There's a raft of butane powered, flameless heating
tools that offer soldering tips along with hot gas
diffusers for heat-shrinking and other general heating
of small areas.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | RCT3 crimper opoeration |
Cheers,
I am now 'self-educating' in the realm of teeny-weeny DB9 pins and
sockets. I have the subject RCT3 crimper but am flummoxed by its
construction.
It has a 'tunnel' through which the aspiring pin/socket slides until
properly situated to be crimped onto its inserted wire. Then, one squeezes
the handles until fully compressed, four shiny probes close in on the target
until the clamp is acquired and the crimp is accomplished. A very efficient
device.
However, the rear of the tunnel has a threaded ferrule into which a
spring and an insert fit, and an external cup threads, closing the tunnel
off.
Thing is, unless I dismount this latter cup and its bits to open up
the tunnel , I cannot insert the pin/socket for crimping! What am I
missing? Your advice, direction to instructions or otherwise is keenly
requested.
happy landings,
Ferg
wiring a cable extension to the magnetic sensor for the Dynon D100
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: RCT3 crimper opoeration |
At 09:31 AM 1/12/2011, you wrote:
>Cheers,
>
> I am now 'self-educating' in the realm of teeny-weeny DB9
> pins and sockets. I have the subject RCT3 crimper but am flummoxed
> by its construction.
>
> It has a 'tunnel' through which the aspiring pin/socket
> slides until properly situated to be crimped onto its inserted
> wire. Then, one squeezes the handles until fully compressed, four
> shiny probes close in on the target until the clamp is acquired and
> the crimp is accomplished. A very efficient device.
>
> However, the rear of the tunnel has a threaded ferrule into
> which a spring and an insert fit, and an external cup threads,
> closing the tunnel off.
>
> Thing is, unless I dismount this latter cup and its bits to
> open up the tunnel , I cannot insert the pin/socket for
> crimping! What am I missing? Your advice, direction to
> instructions or otherwise is keenly requested.
Strip the wire appropriate proper depth of
insertion into the pin. Hold stripped end
of wire up, drop pin onto wire.
Lower crimp tool over the pin until pin is
seated in tool and close the handles. Withdraw
wire and pin from tool.
Some folks like to drop pin into the tool. The
wire-grip barrel of the pin should be flush with
the face of the tool. Insert exposed strands and
crimp. Wire with attached pin can then be withdrawn.
It all happens from one side of the tool no matter
what brand or style of tool is being used.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger |
circuits.
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 8:18 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
<snip>
> and in particular paragraph 23.1367
>
We use 23.1367 a lot in Flight Test, particularly "(c) Accessible to
appropriate flight crewmembers;" and "(d) Labeled as to operation and the
circuit controlled" in our Human Factors evaluations. 23.1367(c) is my
favorite regulation. It's how us flight testers get to completely redesign
the cockpit after someone with far more intelligence than us has put a lot
of time into layout. Just kidding. (Lately, most designers have become much
more tuned into the human factors aspects of designs. Everyone wins,
especially customers.) Sorry for the digression.
Fuses and breakers protect wires from hard faults (LOTS OF CURRENT) and
> nothing more.
>
<snip>
> Now, armed with this simple-idea, run the
> traps on what kind of fault would cause the
> contactor control wires you've cited to become
> exposed to high fault currents?
>
<snip>
> Faulting a supply wire
> to ground exposes it to the potential fault
> current of a battery . . . perhaps 1000 amps
> or more. Faulting a ground-to-close control
> wire to ground exposes it only to the current
> it takes to close the contactor. Hence, no
> protection is called for in these lines.
>
To summarize to verify my own understanding...
I'll protect all wires over six inches who supply enough current to make bad
things happen.
Why, then, does the starter contactor circuit in Z-10/8 show a 7A fuse? I
see that it closes two relays...
Bob . . .
>
>
--
Andrew Zachar
andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com
Message 7
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I have finished assembling my panel and everything is working fine
except the squelch on the Icom A210 is open unless set to the highest
level **or** I turn OFF my GRT displays. Either one of them ON opens the
squelch. The Garmin 430 does not have the same problem and I tested
them both with the same antenna/coax connected to one my wings. Both
radios receive fine. I have removed all connections to the radio not
essential to testing, like the swap & serial lines as well as all
connections to the audio panel, then just using the speaker output on
the radio. Also fed the radio from a separate 12V source. Nothing I
have done has made any difference in the squelch setting. With the GRT's
OFF I can set the squelch to level 4~5. With them ON it must be at 10
(highest) and even then it will occasionally open.
My wings are stored overhead so the antenna is in fairly close proximity
(8') and is horizontally polarized in it's present position. I dont
think that should matter but I plan to try a different antenna today.
It seems the radio is just overly sensitive, but that is just speculation.
Single point ground per Bob's instrument panel ground bus. There are no
shielded wires attached to it at this point except the speaker leads.
Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.
Tim Andres
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: RCT3 crimper opoeration |
Hi Ferg
This link has been shown before but just in case you missed it
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=713328494001
It gives a good breakdown on the Machine pins installation,
Hope it helps
regards
Ivor
On 12 January 2011 16:02, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
> At 09:31 AM 1/12/2011, you wrote:
>
> Cheers,
>>
>> I am now 'self-educating' in the realm of teeny-weeny DB9 pins and
>> sockets. I have the subject RCT3 crimper but am flummoxed by its
>> construction.
>>
>> It has a 'tunnel' through which the aspiring pin/socket slides
>> until properly situated to be crimped onto its inserted wire. Then, one
>> squeezes the handles until fully compressed, four shiny probes close in on
>> the target until the clamp is acquired and the crimp is accomplished. A very
>> efficient device.
>>
>> However, the rear of the tunnel has a threaded ferrule into which a
>> spring and an insert fit, and an external cup threads, closing the tunnel
>> off.
>>
>> Thing is, unless I dismount this latter cup and its bits to open up
>> the tunnel , I cannot insert the pin/socket for crimping! What am I
>> missing? Your advice, direction to instructions or otherwise is keenly
>> requested.
>>
>
> Strip the wire appropriate proper depth of
> insertion into the pin. Hold stripped end
> of wire up, drop pin onto wire.
>
> Lower crimp tool over the pin until pin is
> seated in tool and close the handles. Withdraw
> wire and pin from tool.
>
> Some folks like to drop pin into the tool. The
> wire-grip barrel of the pin should be flush with
> the face of the tool. Insert exposed strands and
> crimp. Wire with attached pin can then be withdrawn.
>
> It all happens from one side of the tool no matter
> what brand or style of tool is being used.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 9
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Hi Tony=2C
I'm building a Kolb MkIII. It's more like an overgrown ultralight=2C if
you're
not familiar with the make. I have an overhead panel and a front panel/
radio console. The distance between them is about 8 feet=2C with proper
routing.Most=2C but not all=2C of the wiring bundles I have are encapsulate
d in
that 'split loom' stuff you can get from auto parts stores. Here's the st
uff
I bought=3B
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260705433450&ssPageNa
me=STRK:MEWNX:IT
For short runs of bundled wires=2C in the 6" to 24" realm=2C I use the
heatshrink=2C and in some cases=2C in may not even be shrunk. It's primary
function in these circumstances is just to protect the bundles from chafing
.
By not shrinking it=2C I could add or remove a wire later=2C if the need ar
ises.
If I can ever get back to the GlaStar I have=2C and I wanted to pre-order
a
sufficient supply of heatshrink=2C and insure I definitely would not run ou
t=2C
I think I would be tempted to go with the 5 (or even 6) colors X 8 sizes
X 10 meters long. I would bet this would be MUCH=2C MUCH more than you'd n
eed
to do a decent wiring job on a typical Homebuilt airplane=2C and still have
plenty left over for decades to come.
Example=3B 6 colors X 8 sizes = 48 pcs. 48 x 10 m = 480 meter
s
or put another way=3B yeah=2C that ought to about do it!!!
I think the 1mm heatshrink is for really thin wire....maybe in the 24 AWG
range. 2mm is (my guess) about pencil lead size. Useful for a few tiny wi
res=2C
or maybe one 18 ga. You get the idea=2C I hope.
I would order some heatshrink starting at 1mm=2C up to 7mm. I think 3mm
to
5mm would be a very popular size!
Heatshrink is a little like gasoline in your airplane's fuel tank=2C you
can't
have too much=2C and having a little extra is never a bad thing.
The reason for the choice of different colors is that this help different
iate
the wire bundles when you are far from their source.
Best to all=2C Mike Welch
From: tonybabb@alejandra.net
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink
Mike/ anyone=2C
I'm a long way from starting my electrical installation=2C building a Veloc
ity canard/composite. Was the order you placed sufficient for an entire ins
tallation or was this a top-up after you'd already started. I have no idea
how much I'll need.
Thanks=2C
Tony Babb
Velocity SEFG 62% done=2C 78% to go
www.alejandra.net/velocity
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch
Sent: Tuesday=2C January 11=2C 2011 10:10 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink
Group=2C
Regarding my order=2C I simply asked for 5 colors of
5 sizes (3=2C4=2C5=2C6 & 7mm). 5 colors X 5 sizes = 25
pieces=2C each piece 10 M long. Simple as that.
It took a few days=2C but she got back to me with
a pretty good price. I paid by way of PayPal.
I think I need some more 2mm stuff. This is an area
I think I may have overlooked.
You guys that want to order something=2C might try
sending Lisa a message via eBay (if cnbestone@gmail.com
doesn't work out). You might also try the "contact us"
tab on their Hobby Dream website. My emails back and
forth to her were by way of the eBay message forum.
Thanks for the kudos=2C Mike Sharp. I try to be helpful=2C
I really do. But=2C like many=2C sometimes when we offer
what we think is useful information=2C tips=2C pointers=2C etc=2C
it sometimes backfires on us. Inevitably=2C somebody will
point out my errors=2C blunders=2C or flaws. Then=2C I wonder
why I even try to offer anything=2C 'cause now I look like
a fool. :-(
I am somewhat new to this chat site. I still find it
hard to believe such a wonderful resource is available
to the pilots and airplane builders. Electronics always
has been a huge passion of mine=2C even though I spent most
of my life in the construction field.
Being able to build little electronic circuits=2C and
have them actually work is a dream come true. 36 years ago=2C
I took an electronics training course in the Air Force.
For 35+ years=2C I have always wanted to "play" with electronic
circuits=2C and the Aeroelectric forum gives me the information
and resources to be able to finally do that. For that=2C I am
VERY grateful!
I personally recognize there are a select few guys that
take the time to be helpful. They don't have to=2C they just do.
When someone asks a question=2C they spend their valuable time
trying to help out. Nice!!
Mike Welch
Do Not Archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - using |
Z13/8 architecture
> Time: 08:53:05 AM PST US
> From: "Howard M. Plevyak Jr." <hplevyak@mac.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Request review of Electrical Load
> Analysis - GlaStar
> using Z13/8 architecture
>
> I finished an initial version of my electrical load analysis. I'd like
> to get some feedback on this from the list.
Minor amounts, but you appear to be missing the loads for the voltage
regulators, essential bus relay and SD-8 relay. What about an
avionics fan ?
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Open squelch |
At 12:05 PM 1/12/2011, you wrote:
I have finished assembling my panel and everything is working fine
except the squelch on the Icom A210 is open unless set to the highest
level **or** I turn OFF my GRT displays. Either one of them ON opens
the squelch. The Garmin 430 does not have the same problem and I
tested them both with the same antenna/coax connected to one my
wings. Both radios receive fine. I have removed all connections to
the radio not essential to testing, like the swap & serial lines as
well as all connections to the audio panel, then just using the
speaker output on the radio. Also fed the radio from a separate 12V
source. Nothing I have done has made any difference in the squelch
setting. With the GRT's OFF I can set the squelch to level 4~5. With
them ON it must be at 10 (highest) and even then it will occasionally open.
See what effects, if any, are noted when
you disconnect the antenna from the Icom.
It seems the radio is just overly sensitive, but that is just speculation.
You can never have a radio that is "too sensitive".
I MIGHT be poorly shielded or the GRT equipment
may be overly generous with their radiated emissions.
What, if any, are the DO160 test claims for the GRT
equipment?
Single point ground per Bob's instrument panel ground bus. There are
no shielded wires attached to it at this point except the speaker leads.
Ground busses have no participation in the kind
of symptoms you've described.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Open squelch |
On 1/12/2011 7:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> See what effects, if any, are noted when
> you disconnect the antenna from the Icom.
>
>
> Thanks Bob;
When the antenna is disconnected the radio goes silent. I spoke
with both Icom and GRT today. At this point I'm going to leave it as is
until
I still have a problem after the panel is installed in the
aircraft. If so GRT indicated they can install some filters on the video
display that may help.
Tim
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