---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/12/11: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:59 AM - Re: heatshrink (Tony Babb) 2. 05:23 AM - Re: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:51 AM - Re: Heatshrink (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:36 AM - RCT3 crimper opoeration (Fergus Kyle) 5. 08:03 AM - Re: RCT3 crimper opoeration (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:47 AM - Re: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. (Andrew Zachar) 7. 09:10 AM - Open squelch (Tim Andres) 8. 09:25 AM - Re: RCT3 crimper opoeration (PHILLIPS I) 9. 09:37 AM - Re: heatshrink (Mike Welch) 10. 10:01 AM - Re: Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - using Z13/8 architecture (Jeff Page) 11. 08:44 PM - Re: Open squelch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 09:54 PM - Re: Open squelch (Tim Andres) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:25 AM PST US From: "Tony Babb" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Mike/ anyone, I'm a long way from starting my electrical installation, building a Velocity canard/composite. Was the order you placed sufficient for an entire installation or was this a top-up after you'd already started. I have no idea how much I'll need. Thanks, Tony Babb Velocity SEFG 62% done, 78% to go www.alejandra.net/velocity -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Group, Regarding my order, I simply asked for 5 colors of 5 sizes (3,4,5,6 & 7mm). 5 colors X 5 sizes = 25 pieces, each piece 10 M long. Simple as that. It took a few days, but she got back to me with a pretty good price. I paid by way of PayPal. I think I need some more 2mm stuff. This is an area I think I may have overlooked. You guys that want to order something, might try sending Lisa a message via eBay (if cnbestone@gmail.com doesn't work out). You might also try the "contact us" tab on their Hobby Dream website. My emails back and forth to her were by way of the eBay message forum. Thanks for the kudos, Mike Sharp. I try to be helpful, I really do. But, like many, sometimes when we offer what we think is useful information, tips, pointers, etc, it sometimes backfires on us. Inevitably, somebody will point out my errors, blunders, or flaws. Then, I wonder why I even try to offer anything, 'cause now I look like a fool. :-( I am somewhat new to this chat site. I still find it hard to believe such a wonderful resource is available to the pilots and airplane builders. Electronics always has been a huge passion of mine, even though I spent most of my life in the construction field. Being able to build little electronic circuits, and have them actually work is a dream come true. 36 years ago, I took an electronics training course in the Air Force. For 35+ years, I have always wanted to "play" with electronic circuits, and the Aeroelectric forum gives me the information and resources to be able to finally do that. For that, I am VERY grateful! I personally recognize there are a select few guys that take the time to be helpful. They don't have to, they just do. When someone asks a question, they spend their valuable time trying to help out. Nice!! Mike Welch Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. At 05:24 PM 1/11/2011, you wrote: >Bob and all, > >I notice in Z-10/8 (as an example) that some trigger circuits are >protected and some are not. > >Starter contactor trigger - shows 7A protection. >E-Bus alternate feed relay trigger - shows no protection (just 22AWG) >Battery contactor trigger - shows no protection (just 22AWG) >Brownout battery relay (triggered from start switch) - shows no >protection (just 20AWG) > >I know the Z-figures are not to be taken as anything other than >architecture guidance, but is there a rule of thumb on protecting >some of my relay-closing switch circuits? Architecture drawings do not discount the elegant use of circuit protection. Yes, the rule of thumb is: Any wire of significant length (6" or more in the TC aircraft world) at risk for damage due to faults in the system should be protected from burning. A review of Part 23 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/FAA/Part23_electrical_A.pdf and in particular paragraph 23.1367 and Chapter 11 of AC43.13 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/FAA/AC43.13-1B_Ch11_Electrical.pdf might be useful. But be aware that not all words carved into FAA tablets of stone are possible or practical. For example, the words in paragraph 11-48 of AC43.13 are pretty much carved in peanut butter. There is no such thing as a "rating" for a wire's ability to carry current. There is a WIDE band of operating conditions for wires that do not necessarily put them at risk for failure. Circuit protection in the form of fuses and breakers cannot be depended upon to "open before any component downstream can overheat and generate smoke or fire." Fuses and breakers protect wires from hard faults (LOTS OF CURRENT) and nothing more. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/22AWG_20A.pdf This 22AWG wire in the foreground has been subjected to 20 amps of current flow until temperatures stabilized. Note that the wire's insulation has 38 degrees C headroom before bumping it's published performance limits of 150C. Yet we commonly protect 22AWG wires at 5A. This is NOT because 22AWG wire is RATED at 5A. The legacy design decision for protecting 22AWG wire at 5A is a very conservative decision based on temperature rises in bundles, system efficiency goals (voltage drops) and tolerance for special cases where the wire might need to pass through a hot-spot on the airframe. This is why your exercise in wire sizing did not yield any exciting pop-up revelations. As a general rule, wires are much more tolerant of abuse than the table we commonly apply to new system design http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/Wire_Table.jpg . . . these "ratings" are based on a paltry 10C temperature rise. Now, armed with this simple-idea, run the traps on what kind of fault would cause the contactor control wires you've cited to become exposed to high fault currents? When these wires are used to pull down on the grounds side of a relay, contactor or most other devices, there are no conditions of system failure that will subject these wires to unlimited fault currents. The most common failure in wiring is an open circuit. The next most common failure is a fault to ground. Faulting a supply wire to ground exposes it to the potential fault current of a battery . . . perhaps 1000 amps or more. Faulting a ground-to-close control wire to ground exposes it only to the current it takes to close the contactor. Hence, no protection is called for in these lines. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:10 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heatshrink At 11:52 PM 1/11/2011, you wrote: >Thanks guys; > >My bit of education for the day. I'd never heard of doing that >before, just never thought I guess. I've always used a 1000 degree >industrial pin point heat gun or a butane micro torch, but heat is >heat and I suppose a soldering iron is as good a source as any. The most common form of heat shrink is made from a polyolefin plastic that shrinks in the 120 to 130 degrees C range. This is higher than the outlet temperature of most hair dryers . . . or at least it should be. Further, most hair dryers and general utility heat guns have large diameter outlets that tend to waste the energy by throwing it all over the place instead of directing it onto a relatively focused point of interest. The really cool heat guns for electronics all have relatively small exit nozzles for the hot air. The Ungar Princess Emacs! Is one good case in point. This tool is only 250 watt rated and puts it's energy 'on the spot' as opposed to blowing it around the room. I've modified low cost heat guns my fabricating a nozzle from an aluminum or steel funnel and pop-riveting the modification to the guns outlet. This has the compound useful effect of focused energy output plus restricting airflow such that air temperature rise on the LOW HEAT setting of the heat gun is sufficient to the task. I think the Harbor Freight used to sell a $10 tool that was easily modified in this way. I'll look into it and perhaps do a "comic book" on the modification. My heat gun of current choice is the Milwaukee 2000D that features an adjustable heat control. I've had this Emacs! tool for quite a few years. I think I bought it in a hurry one night at Home Depot after my $high$ Princess blew up. The 2000D came with a concentrator nozzle which I've lost at some point in time. This tool is still made an sells for about $40. I tried increasing the output temperature on a hair dryer by restricting the air flow with a concentrator nozzle. The temperature did indeed rise but it caused an over-temp fuse to blow inside the tool. I opened the tool and bypassed the fuse. It sorta worked but the labor to convert it to a real shrink-gun wasn't worth the effort. You're better off starting with a real heat gun of some variety. There's a raft of butane powered, flameless heating tools that offer soldering tips along with hot gas diffusers for heat-shrinking and other general heating of small areas. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:24 AM PST US From: Fergus Kyle Subject: AeroElectric-List: RCT3 crimper opoeration Cheers, I am now 'self-educating' in the realm of teeny-weeny DB9 pins and sockets. I have the subject RCT3 crimper but am flummoxed by its construction. It has a 'tunnel' through which the aspiring pin/socket slides until properly situated to be crimped onto its inserted wire. Then, one squeezes the handles until fully compressed, four shiny probes close in on the target until the clamp is acquired and the crimp is accomplished. A very efficient device. However, the rear of the tunnel has a threaded ferrule into which a spring and an insert fit, and an external cup threads, closing the tunnel off. Thing is, unless I dismount this latter cup and its bits to open up the tunnel , I cannot insert the pin/socket for crimping! What am I missing? Your advice, direction to instructions or otherwise is keenly requested. happy landings, Ferg wiring a cable extension to the magnetic sensor for the Dynon D100 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RCT3 crimper opoeration At 09:31 AM 1/12/2011, you wrote: >Cheers, > > I am now 'self-educating' in the realm of teeny-weeny DB9 > pins and sockets. I have the subject RCT3 crimper but am flummoxed > by its construction. > > It has a 'tunnel' through which the aspiring pin/socket > slides until properly situated to be crimped onto its inserted > wire. Then, one squeezes the handles until fully compressed, four > shiny probes close in on the target until the clamp is acquired and > the crimp is accomplished. A very efficient device. > > However, the rear of the tunnel has a threaded ferrule into > which a spring and an insert fit, and an external cup threads, > closing the tunnel off. > > Thing is, unless I dismount this latter cup and its bits to > open up the tunnel , I cannot insert the pin/socket for > crimping! What am I missing? Your advice, direction to > instructions or otherwise is keenly requested. Strip the wire appropriate proper depth of insertion into the pin. Hold stripped end of wire up, drop pin onto wire. Lower crimp tool over the pin until pin is seated in tool and close the handles. Withdraw wire and pin from tool. Some folks like to drop pin into the tool. The wire-grip barrel of the pin should be flush with the face of the tool. Insert exposed strands and crimp. Wire with attached pin can then be withdrawn. It all happens from one side of the tool no matter what brand or style of tool is being used. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Circuit protection for relay/contactor trigger circuits. From: Andrew Zachar On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 8:18 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > and in particular paragraph 23.1367 > We use 23.1367 a lot in Flight Test, particularly "(c) Accessible to appropriate flight crewmembers;" and "(d) Labeled as to operation and the circuit controlled" in our Human Factors evaluations. 23.1367(c) is my favorite regulation. It's how us flight testers get to completely redesign the cockpit after someone with far more intelligence than us has put a lot of time into layout. Just kidding. (Lately, most designers have become much more tuned into the human factors aspects of designs. Everyone wins, especially customers.) Sorry for the digression. Fuses and breakers protect wires from hard faults (LOTS OF CURRENT) and > nothing more. > > Now, armed with this simple-idea, run the > traps on what kind of fault would cause the > contactor control wires you've cited to become > exposed to high fault currents? > > Faulting a supply wire > to ground exposes it to the potential fault > current of a battery . . . perhaps 1000 amps > or more. Faulting a ground-to-close control > wire to ground exposes it only to the current > it takes to close the contactor. Hence, no > protection is called for in these lines. > To summarize to verify my own understanding... I'll protect all wires over six inches who supply enough current to make bad things happen. Why, then, does the starter contactor circuit in Z-10/8 show a 7A fuse? I see that it closes two relays... Bob . . . > > -- Andrew Zachar andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:09 AM PST US From: Tim Andres Subject: AeroElectric-List: Open squelch I have finished assembling my panel and everything is working fine except the squelch on the Icom A210 is open unless set to the highest level **or** I turn OFF my GRT displays. Either one of them ON opens the squelch. The Garmin 430 does not have the same problem and I tested them both with the same antenna/coax connected to one my wings. Both radios receive fine. I have removed all connections to the radio not essential to testing, like the swap & serial lines as well as all connections to the audio panel, then just using the speaker output on the radio. Also fed the radio from a separate 12V source. Nothing I have done has made any difference in the squelch setting. With the GRT's OFF I can set the squelch to level 4~5. With them ON it must be at 10 (highest) and even then it will occasionally open. My wings are stored overhead so the antenna is in fairly close proximity (8') and is horizontally polarized in it's present position. I dont think that should matter but I plan to try a different antenna today. It seems the radio is just overly sensitive, but that is just speculation. Single point ground per Bob's instrument panel ground bus. There are no shielded wires attached to it at this point except the speaker leads. Any thoughts or comments are appreciated. Tim Andres ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RCT3 crimper opoeration From: PHILLIPS I Hi Ferg This link has been shown before but just in case you missed it http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=713328494001 It gives a good breakdown on the Machine pins installation, Hope it helps regards Ivor On 12 January 2011 16:02, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > At 09:31 AM 1/12/2011, you wrote: > > Cheers, >> >> I am now 'self-educating' in the realm of teeny-weeny DB9 pins and >> sockets. I have the subject RCT3 crimper but am flummoxed by its >> construction. >> >> It has a 'tunnel' through which the aspiring pin/socket slides >> until properly situated to be crimped onto its inserted wire. Then, one >> squeezes the handles until fully compressed, four shiny probes close in on >> the target until the clamp is acquired and the crimp is accomplished. A very >> efficient device. >> >> However, the rear of the tunnel has a threaded ferrule into which a >> spring and an insert fit, and an external cup threads, closing the tunnel >> off. >> >> Thing is, unless I dismount this latter cup and its bits to open up >> the tunnel , I cannot insert the pin/socket for crimping! What am I >> missing? Your advice, direction to instructions or otherwise is keenly >> requested. >> > > Strip the wire appropriate proper depth of > insertion into the pin. Hold stripped end > of wire up, drop pin onto wire. > > Lower crimp tool over the pin until pin is > seated in tool and close the handles. Withdraw > wire and pin from tool. > > Some folks like to drop pin into the tool. The > wire-grip barrel of the pin should be flush with > the face of the tool. Insert exposed strands and > crimp. Wire with attached pin can then be withdrawn. > > It all happens from one side of the tool no matter > what brand or style of tool is being used. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:11 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Hi Tony=2C I'm building a Kolb MkIII. It's more like an overgrown ultralight=2C if you're not familiar with the make. I have an overhead panel and a front panel/ radio console. The distance between them is about 8 feet=2C with proper routing.Most=2C but not all=2C of the wiring bundles I have are encapsulate d in that 'split loom' stuff you can get from auto parts stores. Here's the st uff I bought=3B http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260705433450&ssPageNa me=STRK:MEWNX:IT For short runs of bundled wires=2C in the 6" to 24" realm=2C I use the heatshrink=2C and in some cases=2C in may not even be shrunk. It's primary function in these circumstances is just to protect the bundles from chafing .. By not shrinking it=2C I could add or remove a wire later=2C if the need ar ises. If I can ever get back to the GlaStar I have=2C and I wanted to pre-order a sufficient supply of heatshrink=2C and insure I definitely would not run ou t=2C I think I would be tempted to go with the 5 (or even 6) colors X 8 sizes X 10 meters long. I would bet this would be MUCH=2C MUCH more than you'd n eed to do a decent wiring job on a typical Homebuilt airplane=2C and still have plenty left over for decades to come. Example=3B 6 colors X 8 sizes = 48 pcs. 48 x 10 m = 480 meter s or put another way=3B yeah=2C that ought to about do it!!! I think the 1mm heatshrink is for really thin wire....maybe in the 24 AWG range. 2mm is (my guess) about pencil lead size. Useful for a few tiny wi res=2C or maybe one 18 ga. You get the idea=2C I hope. I would order some heatshrink starting at 1mm=2C up to 7mm. I think 3mm to 5mm would be a very popular size! Heatshrink is a little like gasoline in your airplane's fuel tank=2C you can't have too much=2C and having a little extra is never a bad thing. The reason for the choice of different colors is that this help different iate the wire bundles when you are far from their source. Best to all=2C Mike Welch From: tonybabb@alejandra.net Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Mike/ anyone=2C I'm a long way from starting my electrical installation=2C building a Veloc ity canard/composite. Was the order you placed sufficient for an entire ins tallation or was this a top-up after you'd already started. I have no idea how much I'll need. Thanks=2C Tony Babb Velocity SEFG 62% done=2C 78% to go www.alejandra.net/velocity -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch Sent: Tuesday=2C January 11=2C 2011 10:10 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: heatshrink Group=2C Regarding my order=2C I simply asked for 5 colors of 5 sizes (3=2C4=2C5=2C6 & 7mm). 5 colors X 5 sizes = 25 pieces=2C each piece 10 M long. Simple as that. It took a few days=2C but she got back to me with a pretty good price. I paid by way of PayPal. I think I need some more 2mm stuff. This is an area I think I may have overlooked. You guys that want to order something=2C might try sending Lisa a message via eBay (if cnbestone@gmail.com doesn't work out). You might also try the "contact us" tab on their Hobby Dream website. My emails back and forth to her were by way of the eBay message forum. Thanks for the kudos=2C Mike Sharp. I try to be helpful=2C I really do. But=2C like many=2C sometimes when we offer what we think is useful information=2C tips=2C pointers=2C etc=2C it sometimes backfires on us. Inevitably=2C somebody will point out my errors=2C blunders=2C or flaws. Then=2C I wonder why I even try to offer anything=2C 'cause now I look like a fool. :-( I am somewhat new to this chat site. I still find it hard to believe such a wonderful resource is available to the pilots and airplane builders. Electronics always has been a huge passion of mine=2C even though I spent most of my life in the construction field. Being able to build little electronic circuits=2C and have them actually work is a dream come true. 36 years ago=2C I took an electronics training course in the Air Force. For 35+ years=2C I have always wanted to "play" with electronic circuits=2C and the Aeroelectric forum gives me the information and resources to be able to finally do that. For that=2C I am VERY grateful! I personally recognize there are a select few guys that take the time to be helpful. They don't have to=2C they just do. When someone asks a question=2C they spend their valuable time trying to help out. Nice!! Mike Welch Do Not Archive href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:58 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Request review of Electrical Load Analysis - using Z13/8 architecture > Time: 08:53:05 AM PST US > From: "Howard M. Plevyak Jr." > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Request review of Electrical Load > Analysis - GlaStar > using Z13/8 architecture > > I finished an initial version of my electrical load analysis. I'd like > to get some feedback on this from the list. Minor amounts, but you appear to be missing the loads for the voltage regulators, essential bus relay and SD-8 relay. What about an avionics fan ? Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Open squelch At 12:05 PM 1/12/2011, you wrote: I have finished assembling my panel and everything is working fine except the squelch on the Icom A210 is open unless set to the highest level **or** I turn OFF my GRT displays. Either one of them ON opens the squelch. The Garmin 430 does not have the same problem and I tested them both with the same antenna/coax connected to one my wings. Both radios receive fine. I have removed all connections to the radio not essential to testing, like the swap & serial lines as well as all connections to the audio panel, then just using the speaker output on the radio. Also fed the radio from a separate 12V source. Nothing I have done has made any difference in the squelch setting. With the GRT's OFF I can set the squelch to level 4~5. With them ON it must be at 10 (highest) and even then it will occasionally open. See what effects, if any, are noted when you disconnect the antenna from the Icom. It seems the radio is just overly sensitive, but that is just speculation. You can never have a radio that is "too sensitive". I MIGHT be poorly shielded or the GRT equipment may be overly generous with their radiated emissions. What, if any, are the DO160 test claims for the GRT equipment? Single point ground per Bob's instrument panel ground bus. There are no shielded wires attached to it at this point except the speaker leads. Ground busses have no participation in the kind of symptoms you've described. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:51 PM PST US From: Tim Andres Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Open squelch On 1/12/2011 7:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > See what effects, if any, are noted when > you disconnect the antenna from the Icom. > > > Thanks Bob; When the antenna is disconnected the radio goes silent. I spoke with both Icom and GRT today. At this point I'm going to leave it as is until I still have a problem after the panel is installed in the aircraft. If so GRT indicated they can install some filters on the video display that may help. 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