AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 01/17/11


Total Messages Posted: 18



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:43 AM - Re: shielded 5 wire for trim servo (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 06:44 AM - Re: model airplane servo (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 06:50 AM - Re: Mounting a d-sub connector to a bulkhead as a pass-through (jhclarkfl)
     4. 07:12 AM - Re: Transponder antenna signal (Marty)
     5. 07:46 AM - Re: shielded 5 wire for trim servo (Etienne Phillips)
     6. 07:49 AM - Re: model airplane servo (Robert Taylor)
     7. 07:55 AM - Re: shielded 5 wire for trim servo (Jesse Jenks)
     8. 07:56 AM - Re: model airplane servo (Eric M. Jones)
     9. 08:54 AM - Re: shielded 5 wire for trim servo (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 09:04 AM - Re: shielded 5 wire for trim servo (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 12:00 PM - shielding through DB9s (Fergus Kyle)
    12. 01:25 PM - Re: shielding through DB9s (Bob McCallum)
    13. 01:58 PM - Re: shielding through DB9s (Peter Pengilly)
    14. 02:00 PM - Sandia txp/encoder combo any good? (CardinalNSB@aol.com)
    15. 02:58 PM - Re: Sandia txp/encoder combo any good? (Peter Pengilly)
    16. 03:20 PM - Re: shielding through DB9s (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    17. 03:40 PM - Re: Sandia txp/encoder combo any good? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    18. 06:02 PM - Re: Shielding through DB9s (Fergus Kyle)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:43:47 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: shielded 5 wire for trim servo
    At 11:28 AM 1/16/2011, you wrote: >I'm wiring my elevator trim servo and wondering what to do with the >shield on the 5 wire cable that came with my kit. The Ray Allen >instructions say nothing about it. Should I ground it at one or both >ends, or just ignore it? >Thanks. >Jesse Your choice. There is no value for having these wires shielded so what you do with the shield is optional and of no electrical significance. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:44:12 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: model airplane servo
    At 12:48 PM 1/16/2011, you wrote: >I agree with Bob's comments on this. I get around this problem by >early testing to make sure that the "hard over failure" is easily >controlled by manual override. Good for you. Nothing can replace the value of doing failure modes effects analysis and/or demonstrations on a motor driven flight control surface. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Trim_System_Failures.pdf Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > =================================


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:50:10 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mounting a d-sub connector to a bulkhead as a pass-through
    From: "jhclarkfl" <jhclarkfl@me.com>
    That is exactly what I was looking for to make the connection. Thank you for your help and to all other responders! -------- Jack Clark RV-8A Fuselage http://www.mykitlog.com/jackclark/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327290#327290


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:12:07 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Transponder antenna signal
    From: Marty <rv6awingman@gmail.com>
    Stan, Interesting post "world's fastest RV-8A", indeed. How about sharing some of the tricks you used to achieve this goal. You maybe onto something here, starting a new trend in "experimenting". Marty RV-6A N826ME Time: 02:02:03 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder antenna signal Great responses from everyone. I appreciate each one. Like Old Bob, I've broken off stub antenna. I'd considered switching to a blade antenna, but didn't want to fit a new antenna. I will reconsider that option, but I'd like to investigate doing my own "antenna fairing." I've been gradually making streamlining changes to my RV-8A and I now claim the status of "world's fastest RV-8A." Maybe a streamlined transponder antenna will help a tiny bit more. My new target is 200 KIAS in level flight at 1000" MSL. I'm already within reach of that goal. Thanks again for your responses. Stan Sutterfield


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:46:33 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: shielded 5 wire for trim servo
    From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
    Hi Bob Thinking aloud here... Wouldn't the noisy current of a brushed DC motor emit a heap of RF over long wire runs (especially if the trim servo is locally grounded)? Would that not be the reason for the shielding on the cable - not to stop the servo from being interfered with, but to reduce the emitted noise? Thanks Etienne On 17 January 2011 16:40, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > At 11:28 AM 1/16/2011, you wrote: > >> I'm wiring my elevator trim servo and wondering what to do with the shield >> on the 5 wire cable that came with my kit. The Ray Allen instructions say >> nothing about it. Should I ground it at one or both ends, or just ignore it? >> Thanks. >> Jesse >> > > Your choice. There is no value for having these > wires shielded so what you do with the shield > is optional and of no electrical significance. > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:49:58 AM PST US
    From: "Robert Taylor" <Flydad57@neo.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: model airplane servo
    I'd add that, in my application, I have already done the hard over failure analysis. My TigerCub is safely controllable with the trim tab at either limit. Bob Taylor TigerCub N657RT -------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 9:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: model airplane servo > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 12:48 PM 1/16/2011, you wrote: >>I agree with Bob's comments on this. I get around this problem by early >>testing to make sure that the "hard over failure" is easily controlled by >>manual override. > > Good for you. > > Nothing can replace the value of doing failure modes > effects analysis and/or demonstrations on a motor driven > flight control surface. See: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Trim_System_Failures.pdf > > > Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================ > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:55:53 AM PST US
    From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
    Subject: shielded 5 wire for trim servo
    Thanks Bob=2C In digging around on the Vans forum I saw mention that the Ray Allen trim i ndicator could go bonkers while transmitting on a radio if the wire wasn't shielded. I'm going to attempt to use the trim indicator on my Dynon screen so hopefully it won't be a problem=2C but I soldered a 22 gauge wire onto the shield at the servo end so I can run it into the fuselage just in case. > Date: Mon=2C 17 Jan 2011 08:40:15 -0600 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > From: nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: shielded 5 wire for trim servo > kolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 11:28 AM 1/16/2011=2C you wrote: > >I'm wiring my elevator trim servo and wondering what to do with the > >shield on the 5 wire cable that came with my kit. The Ray Allen > >instructions say nothing about it. Should I ground it at one or both > >ends=2C or just ignore it? > >Thanks. > >Jesse > > Your choice. There is no value for having these > wires shielded so what you do with the shield > is optional and of no electrical significance. > > Bob . . . > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:56:19 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: model airplane servo
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    It is amazing how many neat devices the "Nonman-carrying" quadrant of the flight universe comes up with. For those looking for more powerful servos and other neat devices, Google: Robot Zone or Servo City. Here's a great example: "the Magic Box" http://www.circuitcellar.com/psoc2002/winners/297.pdf It's hard not to want one of these. Complete info is back up a level. I sell two distinctly different servo controllers: the EGPNMSC that drives Futaba and other servos, and the TSCMR, that turns the MAC/RAC "sort-of-servo" into a real servo. (Some glitch on my website is being worked on... so you might not be able to see them now). The Ray Allen trim box is really a nice piece of hardware. For those who want to improve it a tiny bit, read the attached. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327300#327300 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tscmr_installation_manual_152.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/egpnmsc_209.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/rac_trim_and_trim_indicator_schematics_756.pdf


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:54:21 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: shielded 5 wire for trim servo
    At 09:53 AM 1/17/2011, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, >In digging around on the Vans forum I saw mention that the Ray Allen >trim indicator could go bonkers while transmitting on a radio if the >wire wasn't shielded. I'm going to attempt to use the trim indicator >on my Dynon screen so hopefully it won't be a problem, but I >soldered a 22 gauge wire onto the shield at the servo end so I can >run it into the fuselage just in case. If that's the case, then the problem is in the indicator, not the wiring. DO-160 qualification protocols for accessories in TC aircraft do not generally allow a latent design deficiency to be masked by user installed shielding, filters, relocation, etc. If you're wiring the actuator's potentiometer leads to the inputs of some indicator OTHER than a Ray-Allen product, then you've got a whole new ball game. If you DO need the shielding, it should be connected to ground as close as practical to the victim. I.e. the indicator. Take the pigtail to a ground pin in the connector. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:04:26 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: shielded 5 wire for trim servo
    At 09:42 AM 1/17/2011, you wrote: >Hi Bob > >Thinking aloud here... > >Wouldn't the noisy current of a brushed DC motor emit a heap of RF >over long wire runs (especially if the trim servo is locally grounded)? Given that the actuator is a PM motor device with both lead wires floating (to achieve CW/CCW operations) then there's no 'local grounding' opportunities to be considered. So all 5 wires from the actuator should be brought forward with the motor pair splitting out to the trim command controls and 3 position-pot wires going to the selected indicator. Brushed DC motors DO emit noise. But it's a matter of degree combined with the manner in which the noise gets out of the system (radiated, conducted or both). In this case, that tiny little motor (draws about 100 mA as I recall) is a mouse roaring in a cacophony of other noises. Further, the noise will come out conducted on the twisted pair . . . these cannot radiate nor can they become victims of radiation with respect to the motor noise. >Would that not be the reason for the shielding on the cable - not to >stop the servo from being interfered with, but to reduce the emitted noise? The actuator itself contains a motor and a pot. These are not potential victims. The motor does generate a modicum of insignificant noise. The pot generates no noise. If the Ray-Allen indicators have proven susceptible to RF, it will be shown to have root cause in a common mode conduction of RF into the indicator circuitry. This MIGHT be improved upon by shielding, the common wisdom seems to indicate this is the case. But it's like carrying a fire extinguisher to offset the potential effects of known fuel leaks. Better to fix the 'leak' inside the indicator. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:00:57 PM PST US
    From: Fergus Kyle <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: shielding through DB9s
    I am keen to provide a shield through one end of a 4-wire cable to the other (it's grounded only at one end and that will be preserved). The cable must be cut to accommodate feed-through needs, so am using DB9s.* Thing is, if I use metal-sprayed bodies, can I feed the wires through the shield (as for a single wire) and then solder the shield to a wire which is wound 'round one of the assembly bolts (#4x40)? This I hoped would continue the shield through both DB9 bodies (bolt-body-body-bolt) and onto the next section of shielded cable. What say you? Fair winds, Ferg Europa Classic mono 914 *The cable joins the Dynon D-100 EFIS to its attitude sensor eight feet away and might be sensitive to nearby RF


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:25:29 PM PST US
    From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: shielding through DB9s
    Ferg=3B Simply carry the ground through one of the pins in the DB9. Don't worry abo ut the cover. The unshielded portion within the cover is so tiny as to be i nsignificant. Bob McC From: VE3LVO@rac.ca Subject: AeroElectric-List: shielding through DB9s I am keen to provide a shield through one end of a 4-wire cable to the othe r (it=92s grounded only at one end and that will be preserved). The cable m ust be cut to accommodate feed-through needs=2C so am using DB9s.* Thing is=2C if I use metal-sprayed bodies=2C can I feed the wires t hrough the shield (as for a single wire) and then solder the shield to a wi re which is wound =91round one of the assembly bolts (#4x40)? This I hoped would continue the shield through both DB9 bodies (bolt-body-body-bolt) and onto the next section of shielded cable. What say you? Fair winds=2C Ferg Europa Classic mono 914 *The cable joins the Dynon D-100 EFIS to its attitude sensor eight feet awa y and might be sensitive to nearby RF


    Message 13


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    Time: 01:58:54 PM PST US
    From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Re: shielding through DB9s
    And use a solder sleeve to attach a pig-tail to the shield, and then the pig tail to the pin. Steinair SS-3, under heatshrink. Peter On 17/01/2011 21:20, Bob McCallum wrote: > Ferg; > > Simply carry the ground through one of the pins in the DB9. Don't > worry about the cover. The unshielded portion within the cover is so > tiny as to be insignificant. > > Bob McC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: VE3LVO@rac.ca > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: shielding through DB9s > Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:56:36 -0500 > > I am keen to providea shield through one end of a 4-wire cableto the > other (its grounded only at one end and that will be preserved). The > cable must be cut toaccommodatefeed-through needs, so am using DB9s.* > > Thing is, if I use metal-sprayed bodies, can Ifeed the wires through > the shield (as for a single wire) and then solder the shield to a > wirewhich is woundround one of the assembly bolts (#4x40)? This I > hoped would continue the shield through both DB9 > bodies(bolt-body-body-bolt)and onto the next section of shielded cable. > > What say you? > > Fair winds, > > Ferg > > Europa Classicmono 914 > > *The cable joins the Dynon D-100 EFIS to its attitude > sensor eight feet away and might be sensitive to nearby RF > > * > > -List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > * > > > *


    Message 14


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    Time: 02:00:06 PM PST US
    From: CardinalNSB@aol.com
    Subject: Sandia txp/encoder combo any good?
    Does anyone have any thoughts on the new Sandia Aerospace transponder with built in encoder? I like the small size and integrated encoder, and the unit is attractively priced (for a new unit). Is there any general problems associated with encoders that make it advisable to keep the encoder separate, so it can be replaced without replacing the transponder? Thanks for your thoughts. Skip Simpson


    Message 15


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    Time: 02:58:03 PM PST US
    From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Re: Sandia txp/encoder combo any good?
    Well, its only mode A/C, and a Trig TT-21 is $1870 from Spruce (less elsewhere?) and provides Mode S. Apart from that looks good from the web page. Will be interesting to see how it performs in the field. http://www.sandia.aero/?q=node/66 Peter On 17/01/2011 21:56, CardinalNSB@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have any thoughts on the new Sandia Aerospace transponder > with built in encoder? > I like the small size and integrated encoder, and the unit is > attractively priced (for a new unit). > Is there any general problems associated with encoders that make it > advisable to keep the encoder separate, so it can be replaced without > replacing the transponder? > Thanks for your thoughts. Skip Simpson > * > > > *


    Message 16


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    Time: 03:20:47 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: shielding through DB9s
    At 03:20 PM 1/17/2011, you wrote: >Ferg; > >Simply carry the ground through one of the pins in the DB9. Don't >worry about the cover. The unshielded portion within the cover is so >tiny as to be insignificant. > Right on. I might add that there's no great transgression for 'exposing' what might seem to be significant lengths of the 'protected' wiring. Shielding breaks electro-static coupling of noise that is potentially significant if the victim wire shares a wire bundle with a anatagnonist wire for considerable distance. In a Beechjet were a pressure transducer wire might be 40' long and share a wire bundle with lots of butt-@#$@ noises, then the shielding has a high probability of standing off a noise problem. In our itty-bitty airplanes, wire runs are so short that the probability of introducing noise issues for lack of shielding is very low. I'll bet that 99.9% of all shielded wires in small aircraft could be replaced with unshielded, twisted pairs with no observable adverse effects. So make your shield transition at the connector look nice even if it exposes what appears to be a lot of wire. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html Solder sleeves are cool . . . and I do use them on occasion but 'shade tree' shield terminations are just as functional. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================


    Message 17


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    Time: 03:40:24 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Sandia txp/encoder combo any good?
    Good Afternoon Skip, The only comment I would make has to do with Sandia, the company. Everything I have bought from them has been well built and has worked flawlessly. I think the new product will likely be great. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 1/17/2011 4:00:50 P.M. Central Standard Time, CardinalNSB@aol.com writes: Does anyone have any thoughts on the new Sandia Aerospace transponder with built in encoder? I like the small size and integrated encoder, and the unit is attractively priced (for a new unit). Is there any general problems associated with encoders that make it advisable to keep the encoder separate, so it can be replaced without replacing the transponder? Thanks for your thoughts. Skip Simpson (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)


    Message 18


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    Time: 06:02:28 PM PST US
    From: Fergus Kyle <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: re: Shielding through DB9s
    Wow! What swift returns! Many thanks for the suggestions on the above topic. To Bob N: Sorry I missed the discussion on "articles/pigtail" and it of course answered my question superbly. It also saves me a lot of fiddly-fooly wirework. I am appreciative once more for the good offices on Matt Dralle's net and Bob's Connections. Thanks too to Bob Mcc. way down the QEW, 50 cliks from here.....! Cheers Ferg




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