---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/11/11: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:55 AM - Battery disconnect switch (Jan de Jong) 2. 07:23 AM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:39 AM - Icing Procedures (Valovich, Paul) 4. 07:55 AM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:04 AM - Re: Icing Procedures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:04 AM - Re: Icing Procedures () 7. 08:24 AM - cable ends at BNC and antenna (Mike Welch) 8. 08:44 AM - Used transponder test? (CardinalNSB@aol.com) 9. 08:44 AM - AOA indicator (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 10. 08:49 AM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Jeff Luckey) 11. 09:24 AM - Re: AOA indicator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 09:27 AM - Re: AOA indicator (Jared Yates) 13. 09:32 AM - Re: Used transponder test? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 11:12 AM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Jan de Jong) 15. 11:16 AM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Battery disconnect switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 11:45 AM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Ken) 18. 12:09 PM - Re: GPS Jamming (Noel Loveys) 19. 12:13 PM - Re: stereo helmet (Glen Matejcek) 20. 12:26 PM - Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch (Jan de Jong) 21. 12:26 PM - Re: Re: stereo helmet (RGent1224@aol.com) 22. 12:45 PM - Machine Pin sub-D crimpers (MLWynn@aol.com) 23. 01:08 PM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Noel Loveys) 24. 02:25 PM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 02:26 PM - 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. (Tom Hanaway) 26. 02:30 PM - Re: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch (Ken) 27. 02:46 PM - Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers (Peter Eedy) 28. 04:12 PM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 04:14 PM - Re: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 30. 04:14 PM - Re: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 31. 04:28 PM - Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 32. 04:51 PM - Re: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. (Tom Hanaway) 33. 05:46 PM - Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers (Bill Watson) 34. 06:01 PM - Re: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. (b d) 35. 06:33 PM - Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 36. 06:48 PM - Low Ohms Adapter Status (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 37. 07:31 PM - Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers (Jared Yates) 38. 08:43 PM - Re: Battery disconnect switch (Jeff Luckey) 39. 11:23 PM - Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers (Bill Watson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:41 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch Please have a look at: http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodimages/pdf/130-C.pdf Latching switch. Takes no continuous current. Takes 50ms pulse of 2.5A instead. Carries 190A. max. 1800A. Switches 100A. Weighs a little over half a S701-1. Costs a little over double a S701-1. Apart from the trouble of having to make a nice reliable pulse - is this an attractive option? Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch At 05:50 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > >Please have a look at: >http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodimages/pdf/130-C.pdf Interesting find! This is but one example of many that we can expect to come over the horizon. This one is interesting in that it's not a solid-state switch. Doing a tear-down to see how it's assembled would be a great education. Lamar has had a solid-state contactor out for some time. I've heard nothing about it's utility or performance from users in the field. An engineer at Lamar was going to send me a sample but I think it slipped his mind. I think I'll hit him up again. I thought I might add a battery master switch to my pickup truck and use the feature to put some real-time service on products like these. Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking distributor for this device? Any notion on what it costs? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:12 AM PST US From: "Valovich, Paul" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icing Procedures We've beat the heated pitot theory to death - how about a topic twist to d iscuss the step by step procedures one will employ before and after encount ering actual icing? My RV-8A has a Gertz heated pitot tube and an AFS 3500 Angle of Attack (I' m a former Navy carrier pilot so I've be weaned on AOA stuff). Here's my icing checklist - appreciate comments from those who think they h ave a better idea. 1. If pilot decides potential icing conditions exist, or prior to entering clouds, or at very first sign of ice PIOT HEAT ON 2. AOA CHECK/VERIFY OPERATION 3. Indicated Airspeed/AOA MONITOR/CORRELATE 4. At First Indication of Ice Accumulation CHANGE AL TITUDE AND/OR COURSE 5. Monitor AOA and IAS 6. If Icing Persists LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE 7. Enroute to Landing Site CON TROLABILITY CHECK - (with sufficient altitude for stall/spin recovery) (slow at 10mph intervals to 100 mph, then 5 mph intervals to approach to st all) 8. Landing Pattern 100 MPH OR AT LEAST +10 ABOVE APPROACH TO STALL 9. Established on Final SLOW TO ENSURE SAFE LANDING ATTITUDE (my tailwheel's on the front) NOTES: 1. Ice accumulation is dynamic, not static. Always be prepared for ha ndling surprises. 2. Closely monitor handling qualities in the landing pattern; do not get slow 3. If stall buffet occurs in pattern, abort and increase pattern spee d on next approach 4. DO NOT STALL IN THE LANDING PATTERN 5. Get the plane safely on deck - do not worry about landing style po ints ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch > Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking > distributor for this device? Any notion on > what it costs? Here it is . . . http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8860610 If I didn't already have a couple dozen things on the to-do list, I'd run right out an buy one. That will have to wait. Given that it's a Tyco product and designed for integration into automotive (worse than airplanes) service, this looks like a really interesting, low-risk product. CAUTION: This is a set-reset, two-coil latched device. Unlike legacy contactors, it takes POWER to turn it on. It also takes POWER to turn it off. This is not necessarily a show-stopper but you need to figure out how it changes your master switch wiring/switch selection -and- how it might affect some abnormal operating situation. This is NOT a drop-in, plug-n-play substitution for the legacy contactor. The price is right but do the substitution with some thought as to the effects of new features added to your bag of tricks. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:22 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Icing Procedures >NOTES: >1. Ice accumulation is dynamic, not >static. Always be prepared for handling surprises. >2. Closely monitor handling qualities in >the landing pattern; do not get slow >3. If stall buffet occurs in pattern, >abort and increase pattern speed on next approach >4. DO NOT STALL IN THE LANDING PATTERN >5. Get the plane safely on deck do not >worry about landing style points Hear, hear . . . All points offer due deference and diligence to the probability that a once comfortable and friendly machine may be suffering the effects of aerodynamic LSD. I would add a reminder that pre-stall buffet may be minimal to non-existent. The way the ice built on my personal spirit-walk with the ice demons had the effect of adding full length stall strip to the wing. It broke so quickly that if there was any pre-stall buffet, it was not noticeable. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Icing Procedures From: In VFR weather a good pilot familiar with their craft should be able to fly without an airspeed indicator. If you can't, you need more practice to get the feel of your bird. Of course Navy pilots already know this. Don't be so dependent on numbers. Glenn E. Long -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 10:20 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icing Procedures We've beat the heated pitot theory to death - how about a topic twist to discuss the step by step procedures one will employ before and after encountering actual icing? My RV-8A has a Gertz heated pitot tube and an AFS 3500 Angle of Attack (I'm a former Navy carrier pilot so I've be weaned on AOA stuff). Here's my icing checklist - appreciate comments from those who think they have a better idea. 1. If pilot decides potential icing conditions exist, or prior to entering clouds, or at very first sign of ice PIOT HEAT ON 2. AOA CHECK/VERIFY OPERATION 3. Indicated Airspeed/AOA MONITOR/CORRELATE 4. At First Indication of Ice Accumulation CHANGE ALTITUDE AND/OR COURSE 5. Monitor AOA and IAS 6. If Icing Persists LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE 7. Enroute to Landing Site CONTROLABILITY CHECK - (with sufficient altitude for stall/spin recovery) (slow at 10mph intervals to 100 mph, then 5 mph intervals to approach to stall) 8. Landing Pattern 100 MPH OR AT LEAST +10 ABOVE APPROACH TO STALL 9. Established on Final SLOW TO ENSURE SAFE LANDING ATTITUDE (my tailwheel's on the front) NOTES: 1. Ice accumulation is dynamic, not static. Always be prepared for handling surprises. 2. Closely monitor handling qualities in the landing pattern; do not get slow 3. If stall buffet occurs in pattern, abort and increase pattern speed on next approach 4. DO NOT STALL IN THE LANDING PATTERN 5. Get the plane safely on deck - do not worry about landing style points ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:29 AM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: AeroElectric-List: cable ends at BNC and antenna Hi Bob=2C I am at a point where I'm closing things up pretty soon=2C and my 'at-the-moment' easy access to my antenna cable is about to end. For clarification=2C plus could you verify something for me? Since I have a 100' spool of the Belden 9222 triax=2C I used it to constr uct my comm & transponder antennas cables. Following the Glasair instructions =2C I installed the BNC connectors at the radio end=2C and used the same method to install the BNC connector at the antenna end. But after thinking about it=2C I think I did the antenna end wrong. Was the point of using triax to let it act like a balun? If it was=2C then wouldn't I leave the antenna end of the triax outer shield 'open'=2C and construct as per the ba zooka balun instructions? (the comm antenna cable is about 40" long=2C the xponder cable is about 60" ) Since I have the inner shield AND the outer shields connected at both end s (via BNC connectors) can I just leave them this way=2C or should I cut off the antenna end=2C and re-do it to where the outer shield does not contact the inner shield=2C (except as pointed out in the "bazooka balun" instructions) ? Thanks for your help=2C Mike Welch ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:24 AM PST US From: CardinalNSB@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Used transponder test? Is there a way to test the cavity tube easily and cheaply using cheap tools, to at least weed out bad cavity tubes before paying an avionics shop for testing? Thank you. Skip ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:24 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: AOA indicator What effect does icing have on the accuracy of an AOA indicator? Will it give you an accurate indication of an impending stall if you have accumulated ice on the wing leading edge? Roger ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:34 AM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes 2. looks cool ;) 3. Price is not bad It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php. Mounting will be different. If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry, couldn't resist ;) I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling.. -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 06:51 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch > Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking > distributor for this device? Any notion on > what it costs? Here it is . . . http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8860610 If I didn't already have a couple dozen things on the to-do list, I'd run right out an buy one. That will have to wait. Given that it's a Tyco product and designed for integration into automotive (worse than airplanes) service, this looks like a really interesting, low-risk product. CAUTION: This is a set-reset, two-coil latched device. Unlike legacy contactors, it takes POWER to turn it on. It also takes POWER to turn it off. This is not necessarily a show-stopper but you need to figure out how it changes your master switch wiring/switch selection -and- how it might affect some abnormal operating situation. This is NOT a drop-in, plug-n-play substitution for the legacy contactor. The price is right but do the substitution with some thought as to the effects of new features added to your bag of tricks. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AOA indicator At 11:24 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > > >What effect does icing have on the accuracy of an AOA indicator? Will it >give you an accurate indication of an impending stall if you have >accumulated ice on the wing leading edge? No . . . . Most AOA displays don't give you an 'angle' display. They generally display bands of relative goodness/badness shaded in legacy red, yellow and green. The display will probably be fitted with a 'sweet spot' . . . which represents an AOA value optimized by much flight testing. The problem is that the any sweet spot assumes that the wing is clean and stall breaks at xx.x degrees. Just lowering flaps can give you a new sweet spot at yy.y degrees. The more sophisticated AOA display systems will have inputs for flap position so that the sweet spot is automatically moved to a new value confirmed by careful flight testing. Once you add ice shapes on top of those super whippy, laminar flow, high efficiency, low drag, etc etc air foils, the stall break moves to zz.z degrees. Unless iced over, the AOA sensor will continue to give you an accurate AOA display. The problem is that any knowledge the AOA possesses with respect to airplane performance is now suspect. It's not a loss of display integrity that bites. It's a departure from performance conditions under which IAS or AOA sweet spots were deduced. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AOA indicator From: Jared Yates Generally, no, it will not give accurate information. A wing that used to stall at 13 degrees might stall at 10 or 8 with ice (for instance, these aren't necessarily accurate numbers). In fact, this has been a source of at least a few crashes of transport category airplanes that stalled on takeoff without activation of the stall protection systems. Ice accumulation combined with an aggressive rotation rate and the ground effect were sufficient to push the stall AOA below the thresholds for the stick shaker and pusher, so in some cases the crews didn't even get any indication that the airplane was stalled, other than the sudden 90 degree bank angle. An AOA indicator might or might not indicate degrees AOA correctly, but even if it does, it's information doesn't mean anything, since you don't know what the stall AOA is of your "new" experimental airfoil shape. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:24 AM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS < mrspudandcompany@verizon.net> wrote: > mrspudandcompany@verizon.net> > > What effect does icing have on the accuracy of an AOA indicator? Will it > give you an accurate indication of an impending stall if you have > accumulated ice on the wing leading edge? > > Roger > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:10 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Used transponder test? At 11:28 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >Is there a way to test the cavity tube easily and cheaply using >cheap tools, to at least weed out bad cavity tubes before paying an >avionics shop for testing? Thank you. Skip > > Easy and cheap need quantification. There ARE ways to exercise a transponder into 'sqittering' a stream of replies by hitting it with certain noise sources. A line operated drill motor has been shown to be an effective test tool for this purpose. Then you need a diode detector teed into the feedline attached to a 'scope for the purpose of watching the width and magnitude of reply pulses. Finally, there is a lesser concern for being tuned to the right frequency. Of course, you can also just go fly the thing. Make a temporary installation and see if center can read your mode c replies. You COULD also build a jeep box that would simulate encoder inputs to check altitude reporting too. What you might want to do is negotiate a go/no-go bench test as opposed to a full stroke through the gyrations that would win a yellow-tag for the transponder. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:22 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery disconnect switch In Europe RS sells the switch for 38.27 and 46,29 -, a lot more than Allied. And VAT of 20% or so not yet included either! The plug needed is Tyco 184046-1 with A key (there are A .. D keys) and is hard to find. I found only one retail source: http://www.newunitedracetech.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_15_24&products_id=6114 They charge $2.70. To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch At 11:46 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > > >... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version >is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? > >1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes >2. looks cool ;) >3. Price is not bad Emacs! This is a direct descendant of the RPM/Stancor/White-Rogers series of legacy contactors. The 70-111226 is a 3-wire 12v contactor with one coil internally attached to the 'BAT' terminal. It's the same class of contactor we've been using in small airplanes for many, many moons. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery disconnect switch >To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an >adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the >required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. >Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, >switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, >switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. >If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - >introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms. This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer pulse. This means that you probably have to device control circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having a fixed and limited duration. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:02 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch 4. no continuous coil current for small electric systems 5. wider temperature limits 6. higher current silver contacts 7. they seem to be implying 42 volt disconnect capability which might make it better for OVP 8. might be acceptable to run electric dependent engine supply through it whereas I will not do that with the "standard" can-shaped contactor. 9. not subject to damage if the connector bolts turn during installation. Cons 1. more difficult connections involving extra bolts and a specific connector that will need to be sourced. 2. more difficult to mount and insulate connections from a metal airframe. 3. ?? On 2/11/2011 11:46 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Luckey" > > > ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version > is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? > > 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes > 2. looks cool ;) > 3. Price is not bad > > It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php. > > Mounting will be different. > > If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more > reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry, > couldn't resist ;) > > I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling.. > > > -Jeff > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 06:51 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > >> Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking >> distributor for this device? Any notion on >> what it costs? > > Here it is . . . > > http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8860610 > > If I didn't already have a couple dozen > things on the to-do list, I'd run right out > an buy one. That will have to wait. > > Given that it's a Tyco product and designed > for integration into automotive (worse than > airplanes) service, this looks like a really > interesting, low-risk product. > > CAUTION: This is a set-reset, two-coil > latched device. Unlike legacy contactors, > it takes POWER to turn it on. It also takes > POWER to turn it off. > > This is not necessarily a show-stopper but > you need to figure out how it changes your > master switch wiring/switch selection -and- > how it might affect some abnormal operating > situation. > > This is NOT a drop-in, plug-n-play substitution > for the legacy contactor. The price is right > but do the substitution with some thought as > to the effects of new features added to your bag > of tricks. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:30 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPS Jamming Good point... they (the bureaucrats ) only think it's their box... And their laws. Every now and again the courts have to set them straight... even up here in the Great White North Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Sent: February 10, 2011 1:02 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS Jamming Actually, it is OUR sandbox that we pay them to keep open and safe. David Roger wrote: > > > As you say its their sand box but they still have to play by the > rules they laid down. > > Noel > > NO, you forget that this is the government. Only you have to > play by their rules, not them! > > Roger > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > * > > > * -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:51 PM PST US From: Glen Matejcek Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: stereo helmet It seems gentex does make stereo installations for their helmets. It has also been suggested that one could take the guts of most any ANR headset and install it in a helmet, and that it's been done before as a more cost effective means to the end. Glen Matejcek ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:40 PM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch >>To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an >>adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the >>required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. >>Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, >>switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, >>switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. >>If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - >>introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. > > Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms. > This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps > while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer > pulse. This means that you probably have to device control > circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having > a fixed and limited duration. Yes - adapter must have power and ground. Without having put pen to paper I was thinking of a few parts like: - R and C for 50ms - comparator with builtin reference and hysteresis good for automotive Vs - PNP with emitter resistor for 5A current limit or so - the odd resistor and diode. Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:41 PM PST US From: RGent1224@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: stereo helmet The DIY guys might want to check out this site _http://www.headsetsinc.com/_ (http://www.headsetsinc.com/) Dick In a message dated 2/11/2011 2:15:15 P.M. Central Standard Time, aerobubba@earthlink.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Glen Matejcek It seems gentex does make stereo installations for their helmets. It has also been suggested that one could take the guts of most any ANR headset and install it in a helmet, and that it's been done before as a more cost effective means to the end. Glen Matejcek ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:56 PM PST US From: MLWynn@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers Hi all, I have been cruising the archives to clarify a question about crimping sub-D pins. If I understand this correctly, there are sub-D pins that are machined and those that are stamped. The machined ones are significantly higher in quality and are recommended. I understand there are standard and high density pins. What is the difference? Do they need a different crimper? Are the pins that B&C sells considered high density or standard? There are also pins for designed for soldering, but they are probably best avoided. Are there any circumstances in which soldered pins are preferable? B&C sells a machined pin crimper, RCT-3 _http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx_ (http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx) that is designed for machine pin crimps. Is this okay for both standard and high density pins? On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels Crimper _http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg_ (http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg) Which they describe as good for regular and high density pins. So, my basic questions are: 1. what is the difference between standard machined sub-D pins and high density pins? 2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an expensive one? Thanks, Michael Wynn RV 8 Wiring San Ramon, CA ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:41 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch Bob do you normally run your starter through this contactor? Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: February 11, 2011 2:42 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch At 11:46 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes 2. looks cool ;) 3. Price is not bad Emacs! This is a direct descendant of the RPM/Stancor/White-Rogers series of legacy contactors. The 70-111226 is a 3-wire 12v contactor with one coil internally attached to the 'BAT' terminal. It's the same class of contactor we've been using in small airplanes for many, many moons. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch At 04:05 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >Bob do you normally run your starter through this contactor? Sure. It's been done in a couple hundred thousand airplanes for 70 years. This contactor doesn't have to SWITCH starter current, only CARRY it. Not a big deal Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:09 PM PST US From: "Tom Hanaway" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. I have led warning lights for door's being latched (20awg). I'm also running a stall warning wire (18awg) to the same fuse. If I use a 3 amp fuse, it blows immediately when power turns on and both led lights go out. If I put in a 5 amp, the system works as designed and lights stay on indicating doors not latched. I realize I'll want to go in and trace all the wires to make sure I don't have an unintentional ground but I don't understand why one fuse pops immediately and one slightly larger doesn't. As stated above, running a 20 and 18 awg at this fuse. Thanks in advance, Tom Hanaway RV-10 Boynton Beach, FL ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:25 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch Suspect that it would work just fine for many years with a momentary spring loaded on-off-on toggle switch and no conditioning circuitry. Ken On 2/11/2011 3:22 PM, Jan de Jong wrote: > > >>> To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an >>> adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the >>> required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. >>> Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, >>> switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, >>> switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. >>> If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - >>> introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. >> >> Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms. >> This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps >> while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer >> pulse. This means that you probably have to device control >> circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having >> a fixed and limited duration. > > Yes - adapter must have power and ground. > Without having put pen to paper I was thinking of a few parts like: > - R and C for 50ms > - comparator with builtin reference and hysteresis good for automotive Vs > - PNP with emitter resistor for 5A current limit or so > - the odd resistor and diode. > > Jan de Jong > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:59 PM PST US From: "Peter Eedy" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers Hi FYI I purchased the Daniels direct with std crimper inserts (k13-1 - not for high density pins) for: AFM8-K13-1 CRIMP TOOL WITH K13-1 POSITIONER 1 $271.26 $271.26 + $20 USD delivered to Australia Great piece of kit worth every penny! www.dmctools.com Peter Eedy 70 - 72 Parry Street COOKS HILL NSW 2300 Australia. Waiex #109 under construction. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MLWynn@aol.com Sent: Saturday, 12 February 2011 7:42 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers Hi all, I have been cruising the archives to clarify a question about crimping sub-D pins. If I understand this correctly, there are sub-D pins that are machined and those that are stamped. The machined ones are significantly higher in quality and are recommended. I understand there are standard and high density pins. What is the difference? Do they need a different crimper? Are the pins that B&C sells considered high density or standard? There are also pins for designed for soldering, but they are probably best avoided. Are there any circumstances in which soldered pins are preferable? B&C sells a machined pin crimper, RCT-3 http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx that is designed for machine pin crimps. Is this okay for both standard and high density pins? On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels Crimper http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg Which they describe as good for regular and high density pins. So, my basic questions are: 1. what is the difference between standard machined sub-D pins and high density pins? 2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an expensive one? Thanks, Michael Wynn RV 8 Wiring San Ramon, CA ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch > >8. might be acceptable to run electric dependent engine supply >through it whereas I will not do that with the "standard" can-shaped contactor. I might repeat a past recommendation that stuff needed to keep an engine lit should probably run directly from a battery bus. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. At 05:16 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >I have led warning lights for door's being latched (20awg). I'm >also running a stall warning wire (18awg) to the same fuse. > >If I use a 3 amp fuse, it blows immediately when power turns on >and both led lights go out. >If I put in a 5 amp, the system works as designed and lights stay on >indicating doors not latched. > >I realize I'll want to go in and trace all the wires to make sure I >don't have an unintentional ground but I don't understand why one >fuse pops immediately and one slightly larger doesn't. how much current flows in the protected circuit. If you had a unintentional ground, no fuse would stay intact. >But if you had, say 4A of current flowing in this circuit, then a 3A would blow quickly and a 5A would hang around. Can you scan and publish a schematic of the system you're trouble-shooting? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch At 05:24 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > >Suspect that it would work just fine for many years with a momentary >spring loaded on-off-on toggle switch and no conditioning circuitry. I suspect you're right. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:46 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers At 03:42 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I have been cruising the archives to clarify a question about >crimping sub-D pins. If I understand this correctly, there are >sub-D pins that are machined and those that are stamped. The >machined ones are significantly higher in quality and are >recommended. I understand there are standard and high density >pins. What is the difference? Standard D-sub pins will accept 20AWG wires, HD-sub pins are limited to 22AWG wire. >Do they need a different crimper? Are the pins that B&C sells >considered high density or standard? They sell standard density pins, I think Steinair can supply both. > > There are also pins for designed for soldering, but they are > probably best avoided. Are there any circumstances in which > soldered pins are preferable? No > >B&C sells a machined pin crimper, >RCT-3 >http://www.bandc..biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx >that is designed for machine pin crimps. Is this okay for both >standard and high density pins? It's designed for Standard D pins. I don't have any HD-pins on hand to check again but I believe the RCT-3 puts an adequate mash on the HD pins. If somebody has a half dozen HD pins they can donate to the cause, I'll test the RCT-3 again and cross-section the joints for microscopic inspection. On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels Crimper >http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg > >Which they describe as good for regular and high density pins. Correct . . . with a change out of the positioner. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Tools/Daniels/ConnectorToolingGuide.pdf > >So, my basic questions are: >1. what is the difference between standard machined sub-D pins and >high density pins? size >2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an expensive one? The B&C RCT-3 (Eclipse Tool Co. 4-quad) tool has been around for at least 10 years. I own and have used several for that period of time . . . I also have a set of Daniels tools and positioners. The less expensive tools are in my knock-around toolboxes, the 'good' stuff is on the bench. I use them interchangeably with good results. If you can get all your d-sub work done in a few months, Stein's rental fee is a good deal . . . but you'd probably want to own an el-cheepo for future maintenance and/or expansion. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:48 PM PST US From: "Tom Hanaway" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. Bob, It was an unintentional ground. I hadn't hooked up the final stall warning buzzer and the wires were lying on the bottom of the fuselage. I don't have a schematic of this portion of the system, just coded wires. Tom -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 6:08 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. At 05:16 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >I have led warning lights for door's being latched (20awg). I'm >also running a stall warning wire (18awg) to the same fuse. > >If I use a 3 amp fuse, it blows immediately when power turns on >and both led lights go out. >If I put in a 5 amp, the system works as designed and lights stay on >indicating doors not latched. > >I realize I'll want to go in and trace all the wires to make sure I >don't have an unintentional ground but I don't understand why one >fuse pops immediately and one slightly larger doesn't. how much current flows in the protected circuit. If you had a unintentional ground, no fuse would stay intact. >But if you had, say 4A of current flowing in this circuit, then a 3A would blow quickly and a 5A would hang around. Can you scan and publish a schematic of the system you're trouble-shooting? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:52 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers FWIW, I just posted my experience with a low cost crimper on my log: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=6577 Though I can't justify buying a $300 crimper for the project now, you can pay a price for going cheaper unless you are careful. The D-Sub wire/pin connection is really easy, fast, clean and seems reliable but it can be screwed up by a defective tool. I'm happy with my repaired cheap crimper at this point. Bob, thanks again for helping me get to the bottom of this one last year. Bill Watson > B&C sells a machined pin crimper, RCT-3 > http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx > that is designed for machine pin crimps. Is this okay for both > standard and high density pins? > On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they > say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for > $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels > Crimper > http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg > > 2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an > expensive one? > Thanks, > Michael Wynn > RV 8 Wiring > San Ramon, CA > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. From: b d Rather than use fuses to guess at your amperage, use an ammeter and put in series. It's not a short, so no need to trace wiring. Its simply how much current is being used. The fuse is sized to protect the wire. The wire is sized to supply the device. I don't know off hand the protection required for a 20awg and an 18 awg. I also don't know the nominal current required for your devices. You must begin there. Is the device using more current than it is designed to use? In the case of multiple devices, the device currents must be added to know the total current. Then is the wire capable of handling all devices or must they be wired and fused separately. Begin a t the device . . . read what the specs are, measure the current with an ammeter not a fuse. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Tom Hanaway wrote : > I have led warning lights for door=92s being latched (20awg). I=92m als o > running a stall warning wire (18awg) to the same fuse. > > > If I use a 3 amp fuse, it blows immediately when power turns on and both > led lights go out. > > If I put in a 5 amp, the system works as designed and lights stay on > indicating doors not latched. > > > I realize I=92ll want to go in and trace all the wires to make sure I don =92t > have an unintentional ground but I don=92t understand why one fuse pops > immediately and one slightly larger doesn=92t. > > > As stated above, running a 20 and 18 awg at this fuse. > > > Thanks in advance, > > Tom Hanaway > > RV-10 > > Boynton Beach, FL > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:36 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers At 08:40 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >FWIW, I just posted my experience with a low cost crimper on my log: >http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=6577 > >Though I can't justify buying a $300 crimper for the project now, >you can pay a price for going cheaper unless you are careful. The >D-Sub wire/pin connection is really easy, fast, clean and seems >reliable but it can be screwed up by a defective tool. I'm happy >with my repaired cheap crimper at this point. > >Bob, thanks again for helping me get to the bottom of this one last year. Sure. I'd forgotten about that conversation. B&C had been doing the same checks and modifications to the RTC-3 tools as described in this folder of my website: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/ I modified all the crimpers I was selling and marked the tools as AEC Modified. But Bill reminded me that the cognizant purchaser of this tool will check for the necessary modification. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Low Ohms Adapter Status I've just finished the proof of concept article for an AEC9008-1 Low Ohms Adapter. The pictures are here: http://tinyurl.com/4f5j3cu The photos include two live tests. In one photo, the companion VOM (not supplied) is shown on the 2V setting. This translates to a 19.99 ohms full scale display on the VOM. I've fitted a 3.9 ohm resistor into the clips which produces a reading of "396" or 3.96 ohms. The other photo shows the clips connected together and the VOM on the 200 mV scale for a resistance reading of 1.999 ohms full scale. We can see that the almost- but-not-quite 4-wire measurement has a residual resistance reading on the order of 3 millohms. When using the instrument on the 20 ohm scale, the 3 milliohm error is insignificant. on the 2 ohm scale, one might improve on the reading my subtracting 3 milliohms from the displayed reading. I've made some tooling for getting the holes drilled quickly. I've worked out some other pesky packaging issues. The production batch should go pretty smoothly now. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers From: Jared Yates If I understand correctly, this is great news. I have this crimper: http://steinair.com/images/store/SAT004.jpg but was just scratching my head figuring out how I was going to handle what appear to be HD pins on my GNS430 backplate. Do I understand correctly that with careful depth positioning, I should be able to use the above tool to crimp a few high density pins too? Stein explicitly says that the above tool is not for HD pins, which I accepted as truth without any investigation. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 08:40 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > > FWIW, I just posted my experience with a low cost crimper on my log: > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=6577 > > Though I can't justify buying a $300 crimper for the project now, you can > pay a price for going cheaper unless you are careful. The D-Sub wire/pin > connection is really easy, fast, clean and seems reliable but it can be > screwed up by a defective tool. I'm happy with my repaired cheap crimper at > this point. > > Bob, thanks again for helping me get to the bottom of this one last year. > > > Sure. I'd forgotten about that conversation. > B&C had been doing the same checks and modifications > to the RTC-3 tools as described in this folder > of my website: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/ > > I modified all the crimpers I was selling and marked > the tools as AEC Modified. But Bill reminded me that > the cognizant purchaser of this tool will check for > the necessary modification. > > Bob . . . > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:21 PM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch Thinking out loud... Some failure analysis & comparison: With this new product, since it is not continually energized, it would be less susceptible to in-flight failure due to coil failure, yes? With a conventional solenoid, if the coil breaks or burns-up, the contactor will open. Not the case w/ this device. In that same vein, it would be less prone to a failure of the wiring to the switch. With the conventional, continuous-duty solenoid, any breakage or loose connection in the wire to the master switch would cause the contactor to open. With this new latching device, once it's on, a failure the wiring to the switch would not cause it to open. For these reasons, the new device might just be a little more "reliable" than a conventional solenoid. (This, of course, assumes that it is a well-engineered, high-quality device.) What do you think? -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 14:25 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch Suspect that it would work just fine for many years with a momentary spring loaded on-off-on toggle switch and no conditioning circuitry. Ken On 2/11/2011 3:22 PM, Jan de Jong wrote: > > >>> To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an >>> adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the >>> required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. >>> Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, >>> switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, >>> switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. >>> If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - >>> introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. >> >> Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms. >> This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps >> while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer >> pulse. This means that you probably have to device control >> circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having >> a fixed and limited duration. > > Yes - adapter must have power and ground. > Without having put pen to paper I was thinking of a few parts like: > - R and C for 50ms > - comparator with builtin reference and hysteresis good for automotive Vs > - PNP with emitter resistor for 5A current limit or so > - the odd resistor and diode. > > Jan de Jong > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:17 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers On 2/11/2011 10:19 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > If I understand correctly, this is great news. I have this crimper: > > http://steinair.com/images/store/SAT004.jpg > > but was just scratching my head figuring out how I was going to handle > what appear to be HD pins on my GNS430 backplate. Do I understand > correctly that with careful depth positioning, I should be able to use > the above tool to crimp a few high density pins too? Stein explicitly > says that the above tool is not for HD pins, which I accepted as truth > without any investigation. I can't speak to the HD pins and at this point, I would take Stein's opinion as fact unless and until Bob gets a chance to test or someone else can chime in. I didn't have to do any HD pins. To be clear, the depth positioning problem is a potential problem with standard pins. I'm guessing that the HD pin is thinner (and the Daniel's tool handles that by changing crimp heads or something). I went back to my records and the crimper I have is from Stein. From Bob's comments, it seems that the defect is not universal but you should check. With the defect, you can make a whole bunch of substandard crimps without realizing it... the last thing you want is some intermittent connection among 20-some wires among a dozen different D-sub plugs. Bill Watson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.