---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/15/11: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:08 AM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Noel Loveys) 3. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: 2nd radio (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:35 AM - Low Ohms Adapters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:52 AM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Etienne Phillips) 8. 07:51 AM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Bob McCallum) 9. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 12:02 PM - Shielded wire use with "wiring hubs" (CardinalNSB@aol.com) 12. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Noel Loveys) 13. 12:40 PM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Noel Loveys) 14. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT (Noel Loveys) 15. 02:19 PM - Re: Permanent Magnet Alternators - Over Voltage Protection (markcs) 16. 02:55 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 02/14/11 (EMAproducts@aol.com) 17. 04:31 PM - Re: Shielded wire use with "wiring hubs" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 04:33 PM - Re: AOA indicator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 08:36 PM - Re: No click when pushing PTT (N777TY) 20. 10:58 PM - New Stereo Audio Mixer Products (Vern Little) 21. 11:14 PM - Re: AOA (Dean Van Winkle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT At 08:58 PM 2/14/2011, you wrote: > >Yes, the radio works fine otherwise (as in, it transmits >fine). COM1 produces the click (hence I can turn on the runway >lights). COM2 doesn't do that. It's not audible, and consequently >lights don't come on.. > >I can hear the click on COM1 (and as a result, lights can be turned >on, for example).. When you say 'transmits fine' do I presume that you can communicate with some distant facility? If on the ground, can you talk to say a distant aircraft and the pilot reports strong signal on either radio? Suggest you get a rough reading on power output. You can do this with the most rudimentary of SWR meters if you don't have access to a real wattmeter. Use the meter to check the #1 system and set the device for a full scale, forward reading on #1 then move it to #2 without changing the calibration. Talking to another airplane in the hangar or to a local hand held might appear to be just fine when in fact, transmitted power output is a tiny fraction of what it should be. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:29 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not transmitting... If you have another radio close by you can test the transmitter is operating. An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years ago was to have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic. If the tube lights up the transmitter is active. Of course you can also see if you are putting out any power by inserting an SWR meter in the antenna feed line. In this case where you are only looking for the presence of power the cheapest of SWR meters will suffice. As Bob said, gone are the days when there were mechanical relays happily chattering open and closed with every transmission. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N777TY Sent: February 14, 2011 9:33 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT Yes, I'm expecting a click.. Considering that the other one which is same technology (ie, not a case of old vs. new) I'd think the expectation is reasonable :) Don't remember last time I ran into this situation in any plane ... so what I'm experiencing on COM2 is not typical.. Looking for ideas what to look at.. -------- RV-7A N777TY Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331092#331092 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT >I would expect the light control radio to trigger on just the >carrier, but for troubleshooting purposes you might try synthesizing >a click verbally while holding the xmit button for each trigger, & >see if the light control radio would respond to that, assuming that >it really needs to see audio on the carrier. > >I'd also ask the control radio's mfgr about whether it just listens >for carrier or not. If the lighting control system needs audio, it would be a published feature. Some of the early lighting control systems were jury-rigged onto the facility's unicom radio. It was a circuit that needed to see a sweeping frequency tone that pilots were expected to generate by whistling. I haven't seen one of those in service in 30 years. They're all carrier operated now and generally have their own dedicated receiver. I would certainly resolve the power output question first. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2nd radio At 12:24 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >Hi Jim > >If it is possible to share an aerial, do you want to? It would be a >single point of failure for both radios... Every time I've has an >issue with my radio, it's been an antenna problem (about 4 times in >12 years). Having an independent radio is more useful to me as a >backup than a convenience, and so would require an independent >aerial. But that's me! > Excellent point. Antenna duplexers for transceivers are not cheap. Two antennas are certainly the least expensive and most reliable configuration. You don't need an audio panel but probably an audio isolation amplifier as described in the 'Connection's audio chapter. http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z16M.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Low Ohms Adapters I was able to finish the batch before I had to leave M.L. on important matters last Saturday. Had a Valentine's day appointment with my grandkids and later my wife! I've been in Lindsborg the last few days and will be back in the shop this afternoon. All low ohms adapters on order will go out first class mail this afternoon. I've not finished the official instruction sheet but there's probably enough info in these photos http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9008/ to noodle out how the critter is used. I'll announce publication of the official instruction sheet as soon as it's posted. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT At 08:06 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: > >I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not >transmitting... If you have another radio close by you can test the >transmitter is operating. An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years >ago was to have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely >unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic. If the tube >lights up the transmitter is active. Yeah, that was the primary reason for keeping the little NE-2 or NE-51, neon bulbs around. Emacs! They were handy for 'sniffing' strong RF either within a transmitter or out on the antenna. Since then transmitters have morphed to low-voltage, high- current architectures. The lamps won't sniff within the circuitry but will still light up when held in close proximity to the tip of a 1/4-wave antenna. Haven't tried it but I suspect it will still be limited to getting excited at 5 watts or more. One is looking for an RF field on the order of 75 volts or more to capacitively excite these lamps into visible activity. The very first transmitter I built http://tinyurl.com/4hwa2da had an NE-2 permanently attached to the hot side of the tank coil and could be used to tune the transmitter. Can anyone spot a risk-issue in this as-published diagram? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT From: Etienne Phillips I'll have a stab at it - when the switch is open, the chassis sits at line voltage? On 15 February 2011 16:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: Can anyone spot a risk-issue in > this as-published diagram? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:11 AM PST US From: Bob McCallum Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT #1 The chassis is directly connected to the line. #2 the switch is in what is hopefully the ground side of the line. #3 It's probably old enough that the line plug is not polarized and the cha ssis may be attached to the "hot" side of the line. More than one person has been electrocuted with such a layout. Bob McC From: nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT At 08:06 AM 2/15/2011=2C you wrote: > I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not transmitting... If you have another radio close by you can test the transmitter is operating. An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years ago was to have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic. If the tube lights up the transmitter is active. Yeah=2C that was the primary reason for keeping the little NE-2 or NE-51=2C neon bulbs around. They were handy for 'sniffing' strong RF either within a transmitter or out on the antenna. Since then transmitters have morphed to low-voltage=2C high- current architectures. The lamps won't sniff within the circuitry but will still light up when held in close proximity to the tip of a 1/4-wave antenna. Haven't tried it but I suspect it will still be limited to getting excited at 5 watts or more. One is looking for an RF field on the order of 75 volts or more to capacitively excite these lamps into visible activity. The very first transmitter I built http://tinyurl.com/4hwa2da had an NE-2 permanently attached to the hot side of the tank coil and could be used to tune the transmitter. Can anyone spot a risk-issue in this as-published diagram? 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zH8fNPOl/FWz0O8t/EdiLGwtLu2s9Ov9S03w7/aOnaZ/xKP7T/sr+zu/4c19N+EtUkk8VeGPL/6D mjjpj/l/03HU+v6/nXBvqEcj5uIxLj/6x9q2fCt5b2/irw5JJ+9ih1zRz1/6f9Nz26Vl7X/oI6vp /SXW/wDVz16NP2EVh/ze+ltetvyfyt9Ep8DvCct0Yn1HxGUE/AF9p47f9gqp4/gh4T+f/iYeIfmt 8n/S9N79f+YT7UUVzHcZFz8EfCnlg/2h4h+c4P8Apenen/YJpn/CkfCgl2jUPEOMA/8AH3p3fj/o E0UVpU6fP9DoM26+B3hMTZGo+I8/aOv27T+3/cK96z9X/Z7+Huq6ZqEGsQXutWd3P/ZV7p+sxaHq lhfWHB+zXdrfaJPHKnP+yf1yUVzUm/ZrV/Elv05loaVNbX8/0M/4dfscfAPwAdTuvhz4H0H4cz6x chNWk8CeFPAnhhtTX/p8/s3wlD5vTtt/lXbwfA3wnMYxJqXiQ7en+nWHoP8AqFe9FFdy1qq/8i/I 47JbKxMnwM8JF/8AkI+JP+Xw/wDH9p/f/uFVn/8ACnfDUOtaNcx6j4gEv/CQaRJu+16efm+3nt/Z fSiilV/jP+u5nU6fP9D/2Q= ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT At 09:16 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >#1 The chassis is directly connected to the line. >#2 the switch is in what is hopefully the ground side of the line. >#3 It's probably old enough that the line plug is not polarized and >the chassis may be attached to the "hot" side of the line. > >More than one person has been electrocuted with such a layout. Yup . . . you're tied for first place. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT At 09:04 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >I'll have a stab at it - when the switch is open, the chassis sits >at line voltage? Right on! I'd built a number of transformer-less circuits where injudicious wiring and positioning of switches could put a chassis at above ground potentials. Since all ham gear was expected to be well grounded for reasons of antenna performance, it made sense to use the SAME ground as the power return for the device. Make the line-cord a one-wire lead that was switched. If the gizmo didn't power up, reverse the plug. But in no case was the properly grounded system at risk for presenting a shock hazard. So called AC/DC radios popular at the time were always housed in a wood or plastic case. Quite often, the line-connected 'ground' within the appliance was floating from the chassis. When launching a line-powered, transformer-less DIY project, it was good to understand such things. Good eye! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:32 PM PST US From: CardinalNSB@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Shielded wire use with "wiring hubs" What is the appropriate way to handle the shield part of "shielded" wire when wiring using a commercial "hub" or a diy "hub"? For intercom/aviionics use. Thanks, Skip ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:14 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT I'll take a stab at it. The crystal and the heater for the tube are both powered by 115VAC. Considering the potential instability in both the voltage coming from the wall and possible changes in the frequency of the AC current it may be a bit edgy. Noel Now give us the real reason. Please! Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: February 15, 2011 11:20 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT At 08:06 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not transmitting... If you have another radio close by you can test the transmitter is operating. An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years ago was to have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic. If the tube lights up the transmitter is active. Yeah, that was the primary reason for keeping the little NE-2 or NE-51, neon bulbs around. Emacs! They were handy for 'sniffing' strong RF either within a transmitter or out on the antenna. Since then transmitters have morphed to low-voltage, high- current architectures. The lamps won't sniff within the circuitry but will still light up when held in close proximity to the tip of a 1/4-wave antenna. Haven't tried it but I suspect it will still be limited to getting excited at 5 watts or more. One is looking for an RF field on the order of 75 volts or more to capacitively excite these lamps into visible activity. The very first transmitter I built http://tinyurl.com/4hwa2da had an NE-2 permanently attached to the hot side of the tank coil and could be used to tune the transmitter. Can anyone spot a risk-issue in this as-published diagram? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:47 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT Certainly a short across the 1 muff cap could cause that. Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Etienne Phillips Sent: February 15, 2011 11:35 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT I'll have a stab at it - when the switch is open, the chassis sits at line voltage? On 15 February 2011 16:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: Can anyone spot a risk-issue in this as-published diagram? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:10 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT Many years ago I had a radio/Amplifier which the chassis could be hot if it was plugged in that way you would get a terrible AC hum from the speakers... I always put it down to the shielding on the tubes being hot. Yes I did get several good roots from that thing until I realized that turning the plug around removed the AC hum. Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum Sent: February 15, 2011 11:46 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT #1 The chassis is directly connected to the line. #2 the switch is in what is hopefully the ground side of the line. #3 It's probably old enough that the line plug is not polarized and the chassis may be attached to the "hot" side of the line. More than one person has been electrocuted with such a layout. Bob McC _____ From: nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT At 08:06 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not transmitting... If you have another radio close by you can test the transmitter is operating. An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years ago was to have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic. If the tube lights up the transmitter is active. Yeah, that was the primary reason for keeping the little NE-2 or NE-51, neon bulbs around. Emacs! They were handy for 'sniffing' strong RF either within a transmitter or out on the antenna. Since then transmitters have morphed to low-voltage, high- current architectures. The lamps won't sniff within the circuitry but will still light up when held in close proximity to the tip of a 1/4-wave antenna. Haven't tried it but I suspect it will still be limited to getting excited at 5 watts or more. One is looking for an RF field on the order of 75 volts or more to capacitively excite these lamps into visible activity. The very first transmitter I built http://tinyurl.com/4hwa2da had an NE-2 permanently attached to the hot side of the tank coil and could be used to tune the transmitter. Can anyone spot a risk-issue in this as-published diagram? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:46 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Permanent Magnet Alternators - Over Voltage Protection From: "markcs" Bob, Many thanks for your reply. Your time is always much appreciated. Regards Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331164#331164 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:18 PM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 02/14/11 Bob, Excellent comments on the list I was a designated examiner & PPE for about 7 years on the CE 500/550 series and along with the FAA used the AOA to see if the applicant had used the "bug card" correctly in figuring his approach speeds. If I recall correctly was 1 Kt per mark on the AOA scale. Tell the appplicant it looked as if he was in error on his approach speeds by a couple knots he would look at you like you were crazy, then refigure and guess what, we were exactly correct, told the applicant to use equipment he had in his plane! Navy pilots lived by AOA, they are among my best customers. I had a pitot line freeze on a D-50 T-Bon in the late 60's seems a mechanic had bent it to make it easier to attach an engine mount, however just outside the cowling it had made a low spot. I lost all airspeed at about 11,000 in IMC, declared an emergency and descended into Prescott, AZ finally getting airspeed back in final turn in holding pattern prior to approach at 0200 AM Been there done that. In a message dated 2/15/2011 12:00:48 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, aeroelectric-list@matronics.com writes: ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:26 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielded wire use with "wiring hubs" At 01:56 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >What is the appropriate way to handle the shield part of "shielded" >wire when wiring using a commercial "hub" or a diy "hub"? For >intercom/aviionics use. > >Thanks, Skip Instructions for installation/fabrication should speak to at least one pin in every connector reserved for the purpose of connecting to shield grounds. All shields in a bundle can be daisy-chained such that the shields can be handled on a single wire in one pin of the plug. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AOA indicator At 03:39 PM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > > >If you are an EAA member you can see ALL back issues of Sport >Aviation on http://www.oshkosh365.org > >If that doesn't do it for you I do have the 2005 issues but I would >have to see what issue it was in. Do you remember what month? Sorry, no. It was mentioned on another forum. Had an EAA membership for 20+ years but gave it up about 10 years ago. So if anyone could find and capture the article, I'd sure appreciate it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT From: "N777TY" Y'all lost me there :) Anyways, back to square one. The radio works just fine... it's been installed for a little over 2 years and never had issues communicating with anyone (even distant facilities). I acquired the plane last summer and this click was never there.. so I can only assume it was like this from day one.. but have no way of confirming this. For clarification -- this is a certified plane that's been flying for a long time.. not a homebuilt sitting in my garage.. This radio allows me perfectly normal "5 by 5" communication with anyone on frequency.. there have never been any issues with clarity nor strength of normal voice transmission.. It just doesn't click... that's all. -------- RV-7A N777TY Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331193#331193 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:00 PM PST US From: "Vern Little" Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Stereo Audio Mixer Products Discussed several times over the years on Aeroelectric, audio mixers have matured. In addition to mono audio mixer/audio panel devices and stereo headphone adapters available for some time, Vx Aviation has released a pair of stereo audio mixers in our unique form factor-- the D-sub backshell. Although we avoid posting too much commercial material to the list, I hope Bob appreciates what we've done here, because it's relevant to what we have debated over the years. Thanks, Vern Little Summary of Announcement: VICTORIA, BC---February 16, 2011---Vx Aviation today announced the introduction of the first stereo audio mixers designed specifically for experimental aircraft applications. The AMX-4A and AMX-4B dramatically simplify and lower the cost of audio system installation in both existing and new aircraft. Both units are virtually pin-compatible with the industry-leading AMX-2A monophonic 10 channel miniature audio mixer, introduced in 2008. Both the AMX-4A and AMX-4B units provide five independent stereo input channels. Three channels are fixed-level, designed to connect to audio sources that have their own volume controls, such as EFIS systems and XM radios. Two of the channels have screwdriver adjustable audio levels, providing the flexibility required when connecting to fixed level sources. Monophonic sources are supported by connecting together the left and right inputs of any input channel. The AMX-4A low output version works seamlessly with PS Engineering intercoms, providing the critical 2 volt peak-to-peak voltage limiting required that prevents damage to the PS Engineering products. The AMX-4B high output version has no such limiting and provides up to 12 volts peak-to-peak drive capability and a gain of 15 decibels, making it compatible with intercoms that require input amplification or for directly driving headphones. For further inquiries, please contact me. Thank-you. Vern Little Vx Aviation www.vx-aviation.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:52 PM PST US From: "Dean Van Winkle" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AOA Bob I just noticed your comments about loss of IAS on both sides of the Beechjet. l attended 2 of your Seminars and I know we talked about both having worked for Cessna. When I left Cessna as a Flight Test Engineer in 1968, I went to work for the Army Aviation Systems Cmd in St Louis as a Dept of Army Civilian Senior Aeronautical Engineer and was there for 28+ years. Most of my time there was spent with the Army's Fixed Wing Electronic Intelligence Gathering Aircraft. In the later years I was the Army Technical Manager for 7 different versions of the RC-12 (Super Kingair 200), the last 4 versions comprised of 36 aircraft with 1200 SHP engines and Gross Weights in the 16,000 to 16,500 lb range. In the early '90s, we took the RC-12N configuration which had the largest antenna array to Duluth, Mn in January for natural icing tests. The Army test crew from EAFB had a specially instrumented U-21 to search for icing conditions and would then call out the RC-12N. I rode with the Army test crew on flights 2 and 3 as a FTE/ Observer. On flight 2, we were in a low stratus layer around 3000 ft MSL, 140 KTS, about 45% cruise power. At 50 minutes we has collected 5 1/2 inches of ice with all of the deice going, at 90% cruise power for the same air speed and had just lost the right pitot airspeed. About 3 minutes later we lost the left pitot airspeed. About 2 minutes later, we climbed out of the low stratus layer so the U-21 could get photos of the ice buildups. Fortunately the U-21 was able to get a picture of the right pitot which showed that ice had grown forward on the unheated pitot mast and then curved downward to block the pitot inlet, at no time actually touching the pitot tube itself. Before the U-21 could move to the left side, the left mast had lost enough ice that the left airspeed had come back and a few minutes later the right airspeed was back. Beech attempted to get some heat in the mast , but abbreviated tests the following winter showed that it was insufficient. Bob, I don't know whether the Beechjet used the same pitot units or a similar design, but that was our findings on the Model 200. Alden Van Winkle Slo Build RV-9A dvanwinkle@royell.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 9:08 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AOA At 08:03 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: My comment on icing and AOA systems ~~If you encounter any type of icing turn the AOA OFF unless you have full de-icing vane & aircraft. We haven't even done R&D on a heated vane because of liability. Even Boeing can't give you hard numbers with icing on wings. Heated vane and icing on wings is NOT a good deal! Elbie Mendenhall, EM Aviation, LLC www.riteangle.com Exactly. The fleet of bizjets at HBC were all qualified for flight into known ice. Everything was heated or hammered. I'll have to call some of my jet-jockey friends at HBC and inquire as to words in the POH concerning usefulness and cautions about AOA displays on the production fleet. I worked a REALLY strange problem on the Beechjet some years back were pilots experienced loss of IAS on BOTH sides of the airplane. Displays always recovered at lower, warmer altitudes. This often occurred in relatively clear air. There was a LOT of brainstorming by a LOT of grey beards as to the physics behind this rare but disturbing event. My task involved cutting a pitot tube open, peppering it with thermocouples and putting it back together again so that we could study not only temperatures at the surfaces to be de-iced but internally. There was some question of ice crystals bouncing through the labyrinth of pressure channels only to melt and re-freeze inside the pitot tube. During the fire drill for sniffing out root cause, somebody asked the question: "How does the existence of a working AOA display help the pilot who is temporarily deprived of IAS?" Good question. The Beechjet had been fitted with AOA indication since its birth as the Mitusbishi Diamondjet. But nobody had ever researched and written the approve procedure for using AOA as an aid to maneuvering without IAS. That amendment was quickly added to the POH. I'm not sure we ever deduced how pitot pressure was being obstructed. I'll have to ask how that problem resolved too. But it was interesting that a perfectly useful display had existed for so long but was never fully developed as a component of plan-b, plan-c, etc. Shucks, with DUAL air data systems, what are the odds? Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.