---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/22/11: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:13 AM - Trim tab slaving? (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 2. 07:41 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (n801bh@netzero.com) 3. 07:46 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (Dave Saylor) 4. 08:14 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 5. 08:29 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (rayj) 6. 08:31 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (jfogarty tds.net) 7. 08:32 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (Richard Girard) 8. 08:35 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 08:38 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (Werner Schneider) 10. 09:13 AM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (Andrew Zachar) 11. 10:01 AM - Re: DIY CBOVM: variations on a theme (user9253) 12. 12:01 PM - a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram (Phil N) 13. 02:06 PM - Shop tip (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 02:06 PM - Circuit emulator - Icircuit (Robert Mitchell) 15. 02:12 PM - Re: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 02:13 PM - Re: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 03:18 PM - Re: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram (pmnewlon) 18. 04:30 PM - Re: Re: Video Inspection Tool (earl_schroeder@juno.com) 19. 05:16 PM - Re: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram (pmnewlon) 20. 05:25 PM - Re: Re: Video Inspection Tool (David) 21. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Video Inspection Tool (Dennis Golden) 22. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: Video Inspection Tool (Robert Borger) 23. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Video Inspection Tool (Robert Borger) 24. 07:20 PM - Re: Trim tab slaving? (Tom Koelzer) 25. 07:39 PM - Trim tab slaving? (Tom Koelzer) 26. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:04 AM PST US From: " Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? Gang: On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out all control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would like to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on one side of the elevator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on each end. Servo is RAC One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the elevator. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides together. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically without very high cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't found it? (The elevator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical connection.) Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim tab, either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta area <10%), or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but ugly), or both. I might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the saving first. Thanks, Andy ------------------------ Andy Elliott N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair 298 hrs since 11/08 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:39 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? I vote for extending it aft.. Syncronizing two servos are problematic fo r sure, do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: " Dr. Andrew Elliott" > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? Gang: On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out a ll control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would like to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on on e side of the elevator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on each end. Servo is RAC One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the ele vator. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides toge ther. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically with out very high cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't fou nd it? (The elevator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical conne ction.) Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim tab, either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta are a <10%), or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but ugly), o r both. I might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the saving first .. Thanks, Andy ------------------------ Andy Elliott N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair 298 hrs since 11/08 ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ============ ____________________________________________________________ Kill Your Wrinkles Mom Reveals Shocking $5 method for erasing wrinkles...Doctor s hate her http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4d63d6fa4fa3e46aae6st05vuc ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:04 AM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? My RV has tabs on both elevators, each cable-driven by a single servo. I think it would be needlessly complicated to get two servos married together at all times. If you didn't do that, you'd have to have some scheme to make sure they were at least able to be manually coordinated. I'd recommend extending the existing tab. You might not need as much as you think. We regularly just tape a tab on temporarily until we figure out what size to use. Dave Saylor AirCrafters 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:09 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > Gang: > > > On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out all > control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the > allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would > like to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on one side of the > elevator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on each end. Servo > is RAC > > > One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the > elevator. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides > together. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically > without very high cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't > found it? (The elevator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical > connection.) > > > Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim tab, > either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta area <10%), > or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but ugly), or both. I > might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the saving first. > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > > ------------------------ > > Andy Elliott > > N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair > > 298 hrs since 11/08 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:41 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out all control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would like to be able to trim them away. Andy, Can your existing trim tab be adjusted to go slitely farther than it now goes. I.e., can the actuator be adjusted to give a little more downward deflection to the tab. Since you are on the edge of being in trim this might be a solution without any further mods. Roger ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:08 AM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? Would VGs on the trim tab offer any benefit? Still might be ugly but quick to try. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN On 02/22/2011 09:09 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > Gang: > > On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out > all control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half > of the allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, > I would like to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on one > side of the elevator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on > each end. Servo is RAC > > One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the > elevator. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides > together. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically > without very high cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't > found it? (The elevator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical > connection.) > > Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim > tab, either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta > area <10%), or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but > ugly), or both. I might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the > saving first. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > ------------------------ > > Andy Elliott > > N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair > > 298 hrs since 11/08 > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? From: "jfogarty tds.net" Dr. Elliott, Is the up and down movement on your trim tab per your owners manual? You should be able to adjust the push rod, however, I'm sure how yours works. Jim On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > Gang: > > > On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out all > control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the > allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would > like to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on one side of the > elevator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on each end. Servo > is RAC > > > One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the > elevator. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides > together. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically > without very high cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't > found it? (The elevator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical > connection.) > > > Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim > tab, either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta area > <10%), or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but ugly), or > both. I might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the saving first. > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > > ------------------------ > > Andy Elliott > > N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair > > 298 hrs since 11/08 > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? From: Richard Girard Take a look at the wickerbill, otherwise known in the U.S. as the Gurney flap. Rick Girard On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > Gang: > > > On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out all > control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the > allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would > like to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on one side of the > elevator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on each end. Servo > is RAC > > > One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the > elevator. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides > together. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically > without very high cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't > found it? (The elevator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical > connection.) > > > Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim > tab, either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta area > <10%), or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but ugly), or > both. I might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the saving first. > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > > ------------------------ > > Andy Elliott > > N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair > > 298 hrs since 11/08 > > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:15 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? Good Morning Andy, Have you thought about adding a small angle on the top and bottom of your trim tab? Some control surfaces experience seperation at the trailing edges. One trick that has been used was to add a small angle to the trim tab or, occasionally, the whole surface to increase effectiveness. Supposedly, if the air is separating at that point, the angles create very little additional drag and do a good job of increasing affectivity. That was how Morane-Saulnier solved the problem on their Paris Jet 760. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 2/22/2011 10:15:39 A.M. Central Standard Time, mrspudandcompany@verizon.net writes: On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out all control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would like to be able to trim them away. Andy, Can your existing trim tab be adjusted to go slitely farther than it now goes. I.e., can the actuator be adjusted to give a little more downward deflection to the tab. Since you are on the edge of being in trim this might be a solution without any further mods. Roger (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:54 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? Andy, there might be another way, on the Glastar a similar issue exists especially for TD's. Two ways did help, first one was having a tape over the hinge line between HS and Elevator, this did increase effectiveness (not sure the 601 is using hinges?) Then another was to add some vortex generator in front of the tab (lower side) increasing effectiveness of the tab as well. Werner On 22.02.2011 16:09, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > Gang: > > On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out > all control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? From: Andrew Zachar A T-strip would most effectively increase the hinge moment of the tab, thus increasing it's effectiveness. Be careful though, messing with hinge-moments on a surface so far away from the elevator hinge line can quickly get you into trouble flutter-style if you don't have some flutter analysis to back it up. (Also, a t-strip on the tab would also increase the hinge moments on the elevator resulting in higher longitudinal pitch forces.) I'd stick with increased tab travel or second tab on the other elevator. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 11:23 AM, rayj wrote: > > Would VGs on the trim tab offer any benefit? Still might be ugly but quick > to try. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > On 02/22/2011 09:09 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > >> Gang: >> >> >> On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out >> all control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half >> of the allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, >> I would like to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on one >> >> side of the elevator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on >> each end. Servo is RAC >> >> One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the >> elevator. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides >> together. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically >> without very high cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't >> found it? (The elevator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical >> connection.) >> >> Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim >> tab, either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta >> area <10%), or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but >> ugly), or both. I might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the >> saving first. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------ >> >> Andy Elliott >> >> N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair >> >> 298 hrs since 11/08 >> >> * >> >> >> * >> > > -- Andrew Zachar andrew.d.zachar@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:50 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: DIY CBOVM: variations on a theme From: "user9253" Thanks for that O.V. circuit using the LM431, Bob. I will add that IC to my next electronics parts order. Joe Do not archive -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331835#331835 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:15 PM PST US From: Phil N Subject: AeroElectric-List: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram Maybe I missed the answer to this question in the text ... I am unfortunately unable to install a backup power source (SD8, SD20) because of how the engine mount on my RV4 comes across the back of the engine hear the vacuum pump pad. That said, I am planning to install a 7AH backup (brownout?) battery on a tray behind my instrument panel. - I am wondering if I would be OK to install a switch in place of the brownout battery relay? My only reason for this is that I have seen relays fail more often than switches in my automation control field. I could be dissuaded. - I ordered the BandC ebus diode on a heat sink based on an older copy of the 'Connection. Now in 12a I see that a Schottky is mentioned. Any reason to abandon the original diode plan? - I plan to use the same PB/Tyco circuit breakers as Composite Designs uses in their power panels. They have a circuit board that the PIDG terminals on the breakers are connected to. My thought is to use a piece of brass and 'forest of terminals' such as the ground plate BandC sells for power distribution to the breakers. The plate would be insulated from the panel and covered to protect inadvertent shorting by 'falling objects'. Does this sound reasonable? Thank you! Phil ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Shop tip I had a little cut-n-glue job in the woodshop this morning . . . and had to fill a new dispenser bottle with my favorite wood glue. I occurred to me that builders here on the List might be interested in the following: I've found it useful to have lots of small glue bottles around as opposed to one big one. Further, the bottles used by Elmer's have a handy, narrow tip for precision dispensing. The tip is liquid tight when closed. Every fall before school starts, Walmart has a row of bargain bins stocked with pencil paks, tablets, etc. One bin will contain a bucket load of Elmer's School Glue in these 4 oz bottles. I've paid as little as $.25 for a bottle of glue. Emacs! You can rinse these out and refill with more sophisticated products like glues, lubricants, solvents, etc. The labels can be removed to get a 'clean' bottle but it's pretty labor intensive. Most of my 'recycled' bottles still carry the original labels with a new tape- label wrapped around and re-identified with a Sharpie. Unfortunately, the beginning of the next school year is some time off . . . but perhaps this note to the List will surface in the gray-matter the next time you walk past a row of those pre- school bargain bins. Snatch up a half dozen or so . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:59 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Circuit emulator - Icircuit From: Robert Mitchell Hi all, I downloaded an app into my IPad called "icircuit", for $9.99 It is a circuit emulator for the IPad. Since I know nothing about electronics, I thought it might be an interesting way to learn! First problem was that I had to learn how to use the program. In going to the main web site, i found a video demonstrating the app; http://icircuitapp.com/ I also found that the program is based on a set of free programs at; www.falstad.com/circuit/ The whole thing is quite an eye opener into electronics, maybe one of the EE types could comment on this whole deal, does it have a practical use to this group? There is apparently a way to add circuits via email to the IPad version, haven't figured that out yet?! Bob Mitchell L-320 Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:26 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram At 02:49 PM 2/22/2011, you wrote: >Maybe I missed the answer to this question in the text ... > >I am unfortunately unable to install a backup power source (SD8, >SD20) because of how the engine mount on my RV4 comes across the >back of the engine hear the vacuum pump pad. That said, I am >planning to install a 7AH backup (brownout?) battery on a tray >behind my instrument panel. What equipment are you carrying that drives this decision? >- I am wondering if I would be OK to install a switch in place of >the brownout battery relay? My only reason for this is that I have >seen relays fail more often than switches in my automation control >field. I could be dissuaded. Not here to persuade you of anything . . . but your worry-bucket seems to be carrying some issues. It would be helpful to know more about your equipment list and the reasons that drive installation of a second battery. What failure mode do you perceive that loss of the relay would be a pre-cursor to your own dark-n-stormy-night story? Things FAIL all the time in airplanes. The best design goals call for crafting systems that are failure tolerant. >- I ordered the BandC ebus diode on a heat sink based on an older >copy of the 'Connection. Now in 12a I see that a Schottky is >mentioned. Any reason to abandon the original diode plan? No. >- I plan to use the same PB/Tyco circuit breakers as Composite >Designs uses in their power panels. They have a circuit board that >the PIDG terminals on the breakers are connected to. My thought is >to use a piece of brass and 'forest of terminals' such as the ground >plate BandC sells for power distribution to the breakers. The plate >would be insulated from the panel and covered to protect inadvertent >shorting by 'falling objects'. Does this sound reasonable? No. To many parts and joints. Why not use breakers that are bus-bar friendly? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram > > >- I ordered the BandC ebus diode on a heat sink . . . What are your e-bus loads? Do you NEED a heat-sinked normal feedpath diode? You're building a metal airplane. I suspect the bare-foot rectifier assembly can be simply bolted to some portion of the airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:08 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram From: "pmnewlon" Crud - I had all my answers typed in and forgot to copy/paste to notepad in case I had been automagically logged out. I hit 'preview' and lost all I typed. Back to the keyboard..... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331868#331868 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:50 PM PST US From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video Inspection Tool For those of us that bought the 'original' unit from HF, here is a link to the 10mm lens that is said to work. Now you can get into a spark plug hole..I have not tried it. http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/10211 Earl ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video Inspection Tool As these things go, I think you'll find this one is a much better unit. Smaller head (10 mm) longer reach (90 cm) higher resolutions. Soon they will be perfect and free. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:25 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram From: "pmnewlon" Bob - thanks for taking the time to provide feedback! My responses are in-line below. Phil >> (7AH backup) What equipment are you carrying that drives this decision? Primarily my electronic ignition, EIS and EFIS >> your worry-bucket seems to be carrying some issues. It sure is! I only have one teenager and had some excess space in that bucket :-) I've experienced the failed alternator in a production airplane and don't want to be there by my own doing in my homebuilt. The plane I owned was rented with a flight school and I was at the mercy of their maintenance as were those who rented it. It was stranded twice because of a failed alternator that wasn't noticed in a timely fashion. The first sign of a problem was the comm radio no longer transmitted. Short minutes later the nav would quit. Thankfully the problem was never more nerve-wracking than having to abort the flight somewhat short of the intended destination and it never happened while under IFR. My plan is to have a well thought-out and implemented electrical system in my RV that will provide the necessary ability to alert me to an issue then let me continue without any worries for an hour minimum and up to two hours. That gives me lots of options to complete the flight to a ho-hum end; most likely at the intended destination. >> (switch in place of the brownout battery relay) What failure mode do you perceive that loss of the relay would be a pre-cursor to your own dark-n-stormy-night story? In hindsight I probably should have left this out. Comparing my auto industry automation where the relays make and break thousands of times before failure compared to fact that the switch that was used to set the machine in motion is actuated one or more orders of magnitude fewer times isn't 'fair'. I had a relay in my BandC shopping cart when I left work, I will just order it tomorrow :-) >> It would be helpful to know more about your equipment list and the reasons that drive installation of a second battery. The 'Connection basic list (xponder, nav radio, panel flood, turn coordinator) plus my electronic ignition and a rear pax light. The ignition adds 2A to the basic list, though I am debating putting one on the battery bus and the other on the e-bus which would lighten the load by 1A to just under 4A. >> What are your e-bus loads? Do you NEED a heat-sinked normal feedpath diode? You're building a metal airplane. I suspect the bare-foot rectifier assembly can be simply bolted to some portion of the airplane. I already have the diode on a heat sink because I hadn't planned on the shelf behind the panel for a small battery. Now that I am going to have a plate there, the barefoot one would work but I will just stick with the one on a heatsink. I was wondering about the Schottky diode and if there was a benefit to the lower voltage losses when compared to the diode I have already. >> (PB/Tyco circuit breakers connected to forest of tabs bus) Too many parts and joints. Why not use breakers that are bus-bar friendly? Size, weight and cost. I'll admit I like the way they look and that I'm not excited about fuse blocks. >> Maybe I missed the answer to this question in the text ... I started to ask just one question - the one about the relay - and then just kept adding more. I miss a lot in the text that I pick up when I reread sections. I recently updated from v10 to v12a and I have to start from square two. So much to learn.... Frankly the adventure of rewiring my airplane has been made tremendously easier because of your text and website. I've gone from tentatively engaging to full-on fun with it because of them! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331878#331878 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:31 PM PST US From: David Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video Inspection Tool Has anyone tried this smaller head with the HF 66550 unit? Btw, when I search the HF site for that part number, it returns zero hits. . Guess it's been replaced but it looks like the replacement does not have the removable screen. For $70, I'd like to be *sure* it works before I buy one. Done that too many times and wasted dollars. :) Thanks, David earl_schroeder@juno.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" > > For those of us that bought the 'original' unit from HF, here is a link to the 10mm lens that is said to work. Now you can get into a spark plug hole..I have not tried it. > > http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/10211 > > Earl > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: "Eric M. Jones" > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video Inspection Tool > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:29:10 -0800 > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > As these things go, I think you'll find this one is a much better unit. Smaller head (10 mm) longer reach (90 cm) higher resolutions. Soon they will be perfect and free. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:09 PM PST US From: Dennis Golden Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video Inspection Tool On 02/21/2011 05:29 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > > > As these things go, I think you'll find this one is a much better > unit. Smaller head (10 mm) longer reach (90 cm) higher resolutions. > Soon they will be perfect and free. Can this thing really get into a 10mm sparkplug hole? -- Dennis Golden Golden Consulting Services, Inc. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video Inspection Tool From: Robert Borger Dennis, I recently purchased the General Instruments CDS300 on sale from Harbor Freight (~$90) and it came with 3 meter cable and 9mm camera head. I haven't tried it yet, but it sure looks like it would peek into a spark plug hole. Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232 http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046 Europa Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Feb 22, 2011, at 19:21, Dennis Golden wrote: > > On 02/21/2011 05:29 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: >> >> >> As these things go, I think you'll find this one is a much better >> unit. Smaller head (10 mm) longer reach (90 cm) higher resolutions. >> Soon they will be perfect and free. > > Can this thing really get into a 10mm sparkplug hole? > > -- > Dennis Golden > Golden Consulting Services, Inc. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video Inspection Tool From: Robert Borger David, The General Instruments GSC300 does not have the removable screen. You have to go to the GSC400 and spend a lot more $$$ for that option. Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232 http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046 Europa Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Feb 22, 2011, at 19:13, David wrote: > > Has anyone tried this smaller head with the HF 66550 unit? Btw, when I search the HF site for that part number, it returns zero hits. . Guess it's been replaced but it looks like the replacement does not have the removable screen. > For $70, I'd like to be *sure* it works before I buy one. Done that too many times and wasted dollars. :) > > Thanks, > David > > > earl_schroeder@juno.com wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" >> >> For those of us that bought the 'original' unit from HF, here is a link to the 10mm lens that is said to work. Now you can get into a spark plug hole..I have not tried it. >> >> http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/10211 >> >> Earl >> ---------- Original Message ---------- >> From: "Eric M. Jones" >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video Inspection Tool >> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:29:10 -0800 >> >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" >> >> As these things go, I think you'll find this one is a much better unit. Smaller head (10 mm) longer reach (90 cm) higher resolutions. Soon they will be perfect and free. >> >> -------- >> Eric M. Jones >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge, MA 01550 >> (508) 764-2072 >> emjones@charter.net ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? From: Tom Koelzer <40950@rv10.net> Dr Elliot, Adjust / extend the throw or extend the trim tab chord with a temporary tab, which ever is more convenient, and measure the effect. We used to use simpl e hanging scales like those to weight small fish to measure stick forces at r epeatable flight conditions. Baseline the forces at the desired landing conf iguration, weight, and CG location first. Make the tab mods and analyze the r esults. If there is no noticeable change then there may be some flow separat ion on the underside of the elevator as others have suggested that has contr ibuted to the problem. Elevator seals and/or vortex generators at or forward of the elevator hinge line area might help. I would not entertain the comp lexity of synchronizing trim motors. Too hard. Once you find what works the best, be sure and test the rest of the trim env elope at various speeds and CG/wt conditions to ensure flying qualities over all are still ok. Then construct a permanent change and verify via a retest of the same conditions. Then publish findings to all. Tom Sent from my iPad On Feb 22, 2011, at 9:09 AM, " Dr. Andrew Elliott" wro te: > Gang: > > > > On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out all control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would l ike to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on one side of the e levator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on each end. Servo i s RAC > > > > One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the eleva tor. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides together. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically without very h igh cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't found it? (The e levator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical connection.) > > > > Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim ta b, either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta area <10% ), or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but ugly), or both. I might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the saving first. > > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > > > ------------------------ > > Andy Elliott > > N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair > > 298 hrs since 11/08 > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:21 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim tab slaving? From: Tom Koelzer <40950@rv10.net> Dr Elliot, Adjust / extend the throw or extend the trim tab chord with a temporary tab, which ever is more convenient, and measure the effect. We used to use simpl e hanging scales like those to weight small fish to measure stick forces at r epeatable flight conditions. Baseline the forces at the desired landing conf iguration, weight, and CG location first. Make the tab mods and analyze the r esults. If there is no noticeable change then there may be some flow separat ion on the underside of the elevator as others have suggested that has contr ibuted to the problem. Elevator seals and/or vortex generators at or forward of the elevator hinge line area might help. I would not entertain the comp lexity of synchronizing trim motors. Too hard. Once you find what works the best, be sure and test the rest of the trim env elope at various speeds and CG/wt conditions to ensure flying qualities over all are still ok. Then construct a permanent change and verify via a retest of the same conditions. Then publish findings to all. Tom On Feb 22, 2011, at 9:09 AM, " Dr. Andrew Elliott" wro te: > Gang: > > > > On my 601XL, the elevator trim tab is not effective enough to trim out all control forces on a full-flap final when the CG is in the front half of the allowed range. Although the remaining elevator forces are light, I would l ike to be able to trim them away. The trim tab is inset on one side of the e levator, and takes the entire width, minus about 20 mm on each end. Servo i s RAC > > > > One option would be to add another trim tab to the other side of the eleva tor. But to do that I would need some way to slave the two sides together. Does anyone have an idea about how to do that electronically without very h igh cost, or perhaps some way already exists and I haven't found it? (The e levator design doesn't allow for a simple mechanical connection.) > > > > Another option, of course, would to be to increase the size of the trim ta b, either making it full width (probably not too effective - delta area <10% ), or extending it aft 20-25 mm (probably would work, but ugly), or both. I might go that way, but thought I'd ask about the saving first. > > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > > > ------------------------ > > Andy Elliott > > N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair > > 298 hrs since 11/08 > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: a couple questions about Z10/8 diagram At 08:13 PM 2/22/2011, you wrote: Bob - thanks for taking the time to provide feedback! My responses are in-line below. Phil >> (7AH backup) What equipment are you carrying that drives this decision? Primarily my electronic ignition, EIS and EFIS How much time to you expect to spend with your head in the clouds? >> your worry-bucket seems to be carrying some issues. It sure is! I only have one teenager and had some excess space in that bucket :-) Understand. I've experienced the failed alternator in a production airplane and don't want to be there by my own doing in my homebuilt. The plane I owned was rented with a flight school and I was at the mercy of their maintenance as were those who rented it. Yup, been there, done that. But keep in mind that the service life of alternators on t/c aircraft is miserable. Plane power, B&C, and many OBAM aircraft builders are adapting modern alternators to aircraft with great results. B&C's return rate is a very small number of the total fleet. I suspect others are seeing similar performance. Keep in mind, that for every dark-n-stormy-night story about some failure, there are thousands of other non- stories that you never hear about. The real risks for tense days in the cockpit due to alternator failure are a tiny fraction of what your grandpa had to endure on his Cherokee that keeps breaking certified brackets. It was stranded twice because of a failed alternator that wasn't noticed in a timely fashion. Typical TC aircraft . . . no timely notification of low voltage. Most dark-n-stormy-night story tellers say the first notion they had for a failed alternator was when the panel started going black/silent. The first sign of a problem was the comm radio no longer transmitted. Short minutes later the nav would quit. Thankfully the problem was never more nerve-wracking than having to abort the flight somewhat short of the intended destination and it never happened while under IFR. My plan is to have a well thought-out and implemented By 'implemented' I hope you mean WELL maintained. Your ship's main battery should not be run until it no longer cranks the engine. It needs to be replaced when its MEASURED capacity no longer supports your design goals for alternator out endurance. . . electrical system in my RV that will provide the necessary ability to alert me to an issue then let me continue without any worries for an hour minimum and up to two hours. That gives me lots of options to complete the flight to a ho-hum end; most likely at the intended destination. Okay, what's your endurance load? >> (switch in place of the brownout battery relay) What failure mode do you perceive that loss of the relay would be a pre-cursor to your own dark-n-stormy-night story? In hindsight I probably should have left this out. Comparing my auto industry automation where the relays make and break thousands of times before failure compared to fact that the switch that was used to set the machine in motion is actuated one or more orders of magnitude fewer times isn't 'fair'. I had a relay in my BandC shopping cart when I left work, I will just order it tomorrow :-) What electronic ignition(s) are planned? >> It would be helpful to know more about your equipment list and the reasons that drive installation of a second battery. The 'Connection basic list (xponder, nav radio, panel flood, turn coordinator) plus my electronic ignition and a rear pax light. The ignition adds 2A to the basic list, though I am debating putting one on the battery bus and the other on the e-bus which would lighten the load by 1A to just under 4A. Okay, it looks like you need 2 hours at a 4A rate. An exemplar 17 a.h. battery discharged at 4.25A is good for 3 hours new http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/17AH_12V_Capacity_vs_Load.gif and 2+ hours at end of life. >> What are your e-bus loads? Do you NEED a heat-sinked normal feedpath diode? You're building a metal airplane. I suspect the bare-foot rectifier assembly can be simply bolted to some portion of the airplane. I already have the diode on a heat sink because I hadn't planned on the shelf behind the panel for a small battery. Now that I am going to have a plate there, the barefoot one would work but I will just stick with the one on a heatsink. I was wondering about the Schottky diode and if there was a benefit to the lower voltage losses when compared to the diode I have already. No advantage from an energy conservation perspective (the main alternator is up and running when that diode is in service). There's an advantage that less heat sink is needed. The Schottky would most certainly run well "bare-sinked". >> (PB/Tyco circuit breakers connected to forest of tabs bus) Too many parts and joints. Why not use breakers that are bus-bar friendly? Size, weight and cost. I'll admit I like the way they look and that I'm not excited about fuse blocks. But I'm not excited about all the monkey-motion for using these fast-on terminated devices. Please consider the miniature screw-terminal devices. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Klixon_1.jpg >> Maybe I missed the answer to this question in the text ... I started to ask just one question - the one about the relay - and then just kept adding more. I miss a lot in the text that I pick up when I reread sections. I recently updated from v10 to v12a and I have to start from square two. So much to learn.... Frankly the adventure of rewiring my airplane has been made tremendously easier because of your text and website. I've gone from tentatively engaging to full-on fun with it because of them! Good. Wiring your airplane ought to be the fun part. A guy who attended my second or third seminar way back when wrote to me a couple weeks after the seminar. He had been sticking electro-whizzies in his LongEz for years. After the seminar, he went home, ripped it all out and wrote to tell me it all went back in a couple weekends but with confidence of understanding. I'm not convinced that you need two batteries yet . . . Reducing battery maintenance to two articles will pay for the better breakers in a few years. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.