---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/17/11: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:44 AM - Re: Current draw for lighting Buss (Bill Watson) 2. 06:03 AM - Re: Current draw for lighting Buss (Tim Olson) 3. 07:42 AM - Re: Current draw for lighting Buss (Bill Watson) 4. 07:42 AM - Re: Current draw for lighting Buss (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:54 AM - Re: Current draw for lighting Buss (MLWynn@aol.com) 6. 08:25 AM - Re: Power for Checking Systems Out on the Ground (Jeff Page) 7. 07:56 PM - Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) 8. 08:58 PM - Re: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II (Ed Holyoke) 9. 09:04 PM - Re: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II (fedico94@mchsi.com) 10. 09:36 PM - Re: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II (fedico94@mchsi.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:03 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current draw for lighting Buss I'd like to piggy back on this question by asking how people have set these 3 units up for dimming? I have a Perihelion dimmer in place but no plan for applying it to these 3 units. I just couldn't figure out what to do. Bill "praying to the spring gods of warm painting weather" Watson > Hi all, > I am wiring my panel. It includes a PMA 8000 audio panel, SL30, > Garmin 430W and 327 transponder. Each has a pin to control the > brightness on a separate lighting buss. I was going to use B&C's > dimmer circuit. What I can't seem to find is what the current draw > for lighting is likely to be. The specific question is, which B&C > dimmer do I need. > Anyone know the answer? > Regards, > Michael Wynn > RV 8 Wiring > San Ramon, CA > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:49 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current draw for lighting Buss Aren't all or most of those auto-dimming? I think you should verify that fe ature and only manual dim the ones that can't. Most things can. Tim On Mar 17, 2011, at 6:37 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > I'd like to piggy back on this question by asking how people have set thes e 3 units up for dimming? I have a Perihelion dimmer in place but no plan f or applying it to these 3 units. I just couldn't figure out what to do. > > Bill "praying to the spring gods of warm painting weather" Watson > >> Hi all, >> >> I am wiring my panel. It includes a PMA 8000 audio panel, SL30, Garmin 4 30W and 327 transponder. Each has a pin to control the brightness on a sepa rate lighting buss. I was going to use B&C's dimmer circuit. What I can't s eem to find is what the current draw for lighting is likely to be. The spec ific question is, which B&C dimmer do I need. >> >> Anyone know the answer? >> >> Regards, >> >> Michael Wynn >> RV 8 Wiring >> San Ramon, CA >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:27 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current draw for lighting Buss That's what I was sort of thinking but didn't finish the investigation. Autodimming is good and I won't mind have an unused dimmer. Right now, I'm just dimming my Honeywell lit rockers and indicators. I assume that for autodimming, no physical installation action is required? Just turn it on (configure it) and it figures out what to do. > Aren't all or most of those auto-dimming? I think you should verify > that feature and only manual dim the ones that can't. > Most things can. > Tim > > > On Mar 17, 2011, at 6:37 AM, Bill Watson > wrote: > >> I'd like to piggy back on this question by asking how people have set >> these 3 units up for dimming? I have a Perihelion dimmer in place >> but no plan for applying it to these 3 units. I just couldn't figure >> out what to do. >> >> Bill "praying to the spring gods of warm painting weather" Watson >> >>> Hi all, >>> I am wiring my panel. It includes a PMA 8000 audio panel, SL30, >>> Garmin 430W and 327 transponder. Each has a pin to control the >>> brightness on a separate lighting buss. I was going to use B&C's >>> dimmer circuit. What I can't seem to find is what the current draw >>> for lighting is likely to be. The specific question is, which B&C >>> dimmer do I need. >>> Anyone know the answer? >>> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:27 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current draw for lighting Buss At 01:58 AM 3/17/2011, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I am wiring my panel. It includes a PMA 8000 audio panel, SL30, >Garmin 430W and 327 transponder. Each has a pin to control the >brightness on a separate lighting buss. I was going to use B&C's >dimmer circuit. What I can't seem to find is what the current draw >for lighting is likely to be. The specific question is, which B&C >dimmer do I need. > >Anyone know the answer? In days of yore, the dimmer input line to a panel mounted accessory was a direct power supply to incandescent lamps scattered about the panel of the accessory. The dimmer input did indeed have a small but significant POWER requirement. It was this lighting philosophy that gave rise to dimmer products designed to handle power . . . the largest of the B&C dimmers would handle a panel full of post lights and a center stack stuffed with radios. The 1960 Cessna 310 had two (count 'em) TWO fat rheostats on the center console for panel dimming. Under some lighting conditions these were so hot that you could not touch the panel around the knob that controlled the rheostat. Modern lighting technologies are all over the map. Florescent, electro-luminescent, LED, gas discharge, etc . . . To further complicate matters, they do not all share the same dimming curves (apparent brightness versus applied voltage). The transition to mixed technology illumination was well under way by the 80's. I wrote a specification for the Gates-Piaggio 180 for a 3 channel dimmer controlled by one knob but with independently adjustable dimming curves to accommodate a variety of technologies. The installation manual for each of these accessories should call out the current draw for the dimmer controls. It may well be that these control pins do not supply power to the lighting components but only send a signal to the internal power supply that services those components. In this case, the control current may be measured in a handful of milliamps. Further, the dimming characteristics may be tailored to the legacy incandescent curve. Long non-answer. The short answer is you'll have to research the installation data that should be included in documents supplied with the accessories. It's a SURE bet that dimmer inputs of any stripe will not be damaged by a linearly variable dimmer control input. It probably won't be damaged by duty-cycle switched dimmers but the switching frequency of the duty-cycle dimmer might produce strange behaviors of the dimming function. You should check this out with the manufacture's field services folks or some knowledgeable installer. Has anyone on the List resolved these questions? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:14 AM PST US From: MLWynn@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current draw for lighting Buss As for autodimming, yes they all do this. A friend with a 430 tells me that it autodims so dim that he can't see it. He goes through the menu to adjust the brightness manually every time he flies at night. Seemed like during construction was the best time to address the issue. Regards, Michael Wynn RV 8 Wiring San Ramon, CA In a message dated 3/17/2011 7:43:14 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Mauledriver@nc.rr.com writes: That's what I was sort of thinking but didn't finish the investigation. Autodimming is good and I won't mind have an unused dimmer. Right now, I'm just dimming my Honeywell lit rockers and indicators. I assume that for autodimming, no physical installation action is required? Just turn it on (configure it) and it figures out what to do. Aren't all or most of those auto-dimming? I think you should verify that feature and only manual dim the ones that can't. Most things can. Tim On Mar 17, 2011, at 6:37 AM, Bill Watson <_Mauledriver@nc.rr.com_ (mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com) > wrote: I'd like to piggy back on this question by asking how people have set these 3 units up for dimming? I have a Perihelion dimmer in place but no plan for applying it to these 3 units. I just couldn't figure out what to do. Bill "praying to the spring gods of warm painting weather" Watson Hi all, I am wiring my panel. It includes a PMA 8000 audio panel, SL30, Garmin 430W and 327 transponder. Each has a pin to control the brightness on a separate lighting buss. I was going to use B&C's dimmer circuit. What I can't seem to find is what the current draw for lighting is likely to be. The specific question is, which B&C dimmer do I need. Anyone know the answer? (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:55 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power for Checking Systems Out on the Ground >> http://cgi.ebay.ca/13-5V-DC-25-8A-350W-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply-/150471439243?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2308cbf38b > > I used about a half dozen of various models in projects > over the last two years. Got two of them on the bench right > now. Just be careful when hooking these guys across batteries. > Some of these products don't like to be reverse powered when > their ac input power is removed. I use a fat schottky in > series with the output to prevent tug-o-war issues. This > means you might want to order the next higher voltage > next time . . . but there's one resistor you can change > inside that will boost the output if necessary. I don't plan on connecting it in parallel with a battery, but this is an important point. I stuck a label on the power supply to remind me, in case I get different ideas a few years from now. Thanks. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:38 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II Klaus wants the hot wire to go to the battery directly in order to minimize voltage sag at the brain box during starting. I have a Lightspeed Plasma II+ that I originally intended to activate with the aircraft's key switch (along with the single slick magneto that I have on the left side firing the bottom plugs). Note that the Plasma II+ (and III+) have two separate wires that work with the key switch made for airplane magnetos. You can't wire a Plasma II into a standard aircraft (magneto grounding) key switch, it doesn't have these extra wires. After I read about some failures of the standard aircraft key switch I gave it some more thought and decided to eliminate the key switch as a single point failure (why lose both ignition systems with the failure of one switch). I decided to leave the magneto on the key switch and wire the Lightspeed to one of the terminals of the bussman six-fuse-block that serves as my battery bus. The fuse block is behind the instrument panel and its common terminal is connected to the Odyssey battery (on the engine side of the firewall) through a 14 gauge wire and a 20 amp klixon breaker (in a box on the firewall next to the battery to protect the 14 gauge wire). The Lightspeed shielded wire goes from the battery bus fuse block to a "BAT" switch (a toggle switch whose stem has to be pulled out of machined notches in the case in order to turn it on or off) and from the BAT switch to the Lightspeed brain box behind the instrument panel (the brain box ground is connect to a forest of faston tabs on the firewall). So yes, I did wire it to the battery but, the signal path goes from the battery through the CB on the firewall, the 14 GA tefzel wire (unshielded), the fuse block, the BAT switch and finally to the brain box!!! Bottom line....2.5 years of flying bliss, the setup works fine and I've had no problems whatsoever. I start the engine using the key switch (impulse coupled magneto only). Once the engine is running I turn on the Lightspeed. It works great with no kickback and, I can still turn the electronic ignition off during the run-up to see how the magneto and bottom plugs are working. I've also started using the Lightspeed only and had no trouble. Like many of these things that we builders tend to fret over, this is one that you should not worry about, different wiring schemes are not a big deal. Wire it in and get that bird flying. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM 2.5 years of flying fun -------------------Original Message------------------- Time: 09:35:35 PM PST US From: fedico94@mchsi.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 and Plasma II ignition I am building an RV-9A per Z-12 outline. The plane has one elctronic ignition on the right going to the top cylinders and one Slick magneto on the Left side. The manufacturer of the electronic ignition insists that the rather thin electrical wire (shelded cable) be attached directly to the battery. I am questioning the advisability of this unless a fuse or CB placed at the battery. Uncomfotable with this hot wire entering the fuselage and being seperated from the battery bus. If the fuse is on the engine side I feel less in control to replace the fuse or reset the CB. Could not find any references on the this website. Would appreciate your thoughts on this matter. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:01 PM PST US From: Ed Holyoke Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II There is one other thing to think about before you go changing the way Klaus has the wiring diagram laid out. As was mentioned in a thread a while back, the Lightspeed box has a built in crowbar to protect itself from an overvoltage event. That's why the wiring diagram shows a pullable breaker as the only circuit protection device. If the internal crowbar decides to unload on the system, the breaker pops and can be reset after the errant alternator is offline. If there is a fuse in the circuit, it will blow before the breaker does and you're SOL in terms of getting the ignition running again until the fuse can be replaced. If this one thin un-fused wire were to short to the airframe before the breaker, it would likely burn right through and become un-shorted. In the meantime, you'd be out one ignition. Best to be very careful in routing and securing this wire and after that - don't worry about it. Inspect it at annual and keep flying. There was a case where some guy put 2 lightspeeds into a lancair and wired them, as I understand it, through fuses which blew and caused a forced landing. Think twice about failure modes before changing manufacturers' wiring diagrams. Once you think it through, then wire it as you see fit, but be sure you know why you made any changes. Pax, Ed Holyoke On 3/17/2011 7:52 PM, DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > Klaus wants the hot wire to go to the battery directly in order to minimize > voltage sag at the brain box during starting. I have a Lightspeed Plasma > II+ that I originally intended to activate with the aircraft's key switch > (along with the single slick magneto that I have on the left side firing the > bottom plugs). Note that the Plasma II+ (and III+) have two separate wires > that work with the key switch made for airplane magnetos. You can't wire a > Plasma II into a standard aircraft (magneto grounding) key switch, it > doesn't have these extra wires. After I read about some failures of the > standard aircraft key switch I gave it some more thought and decided to > eliminate the key switch as a single point failure (why lose both ignition > systems with the failure of one switch). > > I decided to leave the magneto on the key switch and wire the Lightspeed to > one of the terminals of the bussman six-fuse-block that serves as my battery > bus. The fuse block is behind the instrument panel and its common terminal > is connected to the Odyssey battery (on the engine side of the firewall) > through a 14 gauge wire and a 20 amp klixon breaker (in a box on the > firewall next to the battery to protect the 14 gauge wire). The Lightspeed > shielded wire goes from the battery bus fuse block to a "BAT" switch (a > toggle switch whose stem has to be pulled out of machined notches in the > case in order to turn it on or off) and from the BAT switch to the > Lightspeed brain box behind the instrument panel (the brain box ground is > connect to a forest of faston tabs on the firewall). > > So yes, I did wire it to the battery but, the signal path goes from the > battery through the CB on the firewall, the 14 GA tefzel wire (unshielded), > the fuse block, the BAT switch and finally to the brain box!!! > > Bottom line....2.5 years of flying bliss, the setup works fine and I've had > no problems whatsoever. I start the engine using the key switch (impulse > coupled magneto only). Once the engine is running I turn on the Lightspeed. > It works great with no kickback and, I can still turn the electronic > ignition off during the run-up to see how the magneto and bottom plugs are > working. I've also started using the Lightspeed only and had no trouble. > > Like many of these things that we builders tend to fret over, this is one > that you should not worry about, different wiring schemes are not a big > deal. Wire it in and get that bird flying. > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > 2.5 years of flying fun > > > -------------------Original Message------------------- > > Time: 09:35:35 PM PST US > From: fedico94@mchsi.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 and Plasma II ignition > > > I am building an RV-9A per Z-12 outline. The plane has one elctronic > ignition on the right going to the top cylinders and one Slick magneto on > the Left side. > > The manufacturer of the electronic ignition insists that the rather thin > electrical wire (shelded cable) be attached directly to the battery. I am > questioning the advisability of this unless a fuse or CB placed at the > battery. Uncomfotable with this hot wire entering the fuselage and being > seperated from the battery bus. If the fuse is on the engine side I feel > less in control to replace the fuse or reset the CB. Could not find any > references on the this website. Would appreciate your thoughts on this > matter. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:44 PM PST US From: fedico94@mchsi.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II Thank you for your thoughts. So many details with the instrument panel. ----- Original Message ----- From: DEAN PSIROPOULOS Sent: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:52:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II Klaus wants the hot wire to go to the battery directly in order to minimize voltage sag at the brain box during starting. I have a Lightspeed Plasma II+ that I originally intended to activate with the aircraft's key switch (along with the single slick magneto that I have on the left side firing the bottom plugs). Note that the Plasma II+ (and III+) have two separate wires that work with the key switch made for airplane magnetos. You can't wire a Plasma II into a standard aircraft (magneto grounding) key switch, it doesn't have these extra wires. After I read about some failures of the standard aircraft key switch I gave it some more thought and decided to eliminate the key switch as a single point failure (why lose both ignition systems with the failure of one switch). I decided to leave the magneto on the key switch and wire the Lightspeed to one of the terminals of the bussman six-fuse-block that serves as my battery bus. The fuse block is behind the instrument panel and its common terminal is connected to the Odyssey battery (on the engine side of the firewall) through a 14 gauge wire and a 20 amp klixon breaker (in a box on the firewall next to the battery to protect the 14 gauge wire). The Lightspeed shielded wire goes from the battery bus fuse block to a "BAT" switch (a toggle switch whose stem has to be pulled out of machined notches in the case in order to turn it on or off) and from the BAT switch to the Lightspeed brain box behind the instrument panel (the brain box ground is connect to a forest of faston tabs on the firewall). So yes, I did wire it to the battery but, the signal path goes from the battery through the CB on the firewall, the 14 GA tefzel wire (unshielded), the fuse block, the BAT switch and finally to the brain box!!! Bottom line....2.5 years of flying bliss, the setup works fine and I've had no problems whatsoever. I start the engine using the key switch (impulse coupled magneto only). Once the engine is running I turn on the Lightspeed. It works great with no kickback and, I can still turn the electronic ignition off during the run-up to see how the magneto and bottom plugs are working. I've also started using the Lightspeed only and had no trouble. Like many of these things that we builders tend to fret over, this is one that you should not worry about, different wiring schemes are not a big deal. Wire it in and get that bird flying. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM 2.5 years of flying fun -------------------Original Message------------------- Time: 09:35:35 PM PST US From: fedico94@mchsi.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 and Plasma II ignition I am building an RV-9A per Z-12 outline. The plane has one elctronic ignition on the right going to the top cylinders and one Slick magneto on the Left side. The manufacturer of the electronic ignition insists that the rather thin electrical wire (shelded cable) be attached directly to the battery. I am questioning the advisability of this unless a fuse or CB placed at the battery. Uncomfotable with this hot wire entering the fuselage and being seperated from the battery bus. If the fuse is on the engine side I feel less in control to replace the fuse or reset the CB. Could not find any references on the this website. Would appreciate your thoughts on this matter. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:15 PM PST US From: fedico94@mchsi.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II Thank you for your insight. I enjoyed reading your email and found it to be a big help ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Holyoke Sent: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:54:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Lightspeed Plasma II There is one other thing to think about before you go changing the way Klaus has the wiring diagram laid out. As was mentioned in a thread a while back, the Lightspeed box has a built in crowbar to protect itself from an overvoltage event. That's why the wiring diagram shows a pullable breaker as the only circuit protection device. If the internal crowbar decides to unload on the system, the breaker pops and can be reset after the errant alternator is offline. If there is a fuse in the circuit, it will blow before the breaker does and you're SOL in terms of getting the ignition running again until the fuse can be replaced. If this one thin un-fused wire were to short to the airframe before the breaker, it would likely burn right through and become un-shorted. In the meantime, you'd be out one ignition. Best to be very careful in routing and securing this wire and after that - don't worry about it. Inspect it at annual and keep flying. There was a case where some guy put 2 lightspeeds into a lancair and wired them, as I understand it, through fuses which blew and caused a forced landing. Think twice about failure modes before changing manufacturers' wiring diagrams. Once you think it through, then wire it as you see fit, but be sure you know why you made any changes. Pax, Ed Holyoke On 3/17/2011 7:52 PM, DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > Klaus wants the hot wire to go to the battery directly in order to minimize > voltage sag at the brain box during starting. I have a Lightspeed Plasma > II+ that I originally intended to activate with the aircraft's key switch > (along with the single slick magneto that I have on the left side firing the > bottom plugs). Note that the Plasma II+ (and III+) have two separate wires > that work with the key switch made for airplane magnetos. You can't wire a > Plasma II into a standard aircraft (magneto grounding) key switch, it > doesn't have these extra wires. After I read about some failures of the > standard aircraft key switch I gave it some more thought and decided to > eliminate the key switch as a single point failure (why lose both ignition > systems with the failure of one switch). > > I decided to leave the magneto on the key switch and wire the Lightspeed to > one of the terminals of the bussman six-fuse-block that serves as my battery > bus. The fuse block is behind the instrument panel and its common terminal > is connected to the Odyssey battery (on the engine side of the firewall) > through a 14 gauge wire and a 20 amp klixon breaker (in a box on the > firewall next to the battery to protect the 14 gauge wire). The Lightspeed > shielded wire goes from the battery bus fuse block to a "BAT" switch (a > toggle switch whose stem has to be pulled out of machined notches in the > case in order to turn it on or off) and from the BAT switch to the > Lightspeed brain box behind the instrument panel (the brain box ground is > connect to a forest of faston tabs on the firewall). > > So yes, I did wire it to the battery but, the signal path goes from the > battery through the CB on the firewall, the 14 GA tefzel wire (unshielded), > the fuse block, the BAT switch and finally to the brain box!!! > > Bottom line....2.5 years of flying bliss, the setup works fine and I've had > no problems whatsoever. I start the engine using the key switch (impulse > coupled magneto only). Once the engine is running I turn on the Lightspeed. > It works great with no kickback and, I can still turn the electronic > ignition off during the run-up to see how the magneto and bottom plugs are > working. I've also started using the Lightspeed only and had no trouble. > > Like many of these things that we builders tend to fret over, this is one > that you should not worry about, different wiring schemes are not a big > deal. Wire it in and get that bird flying. > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > 2.5 years of flying fun > > > -------------------Original Message------------------- > > Time: 09:35:35 PM PST US > From: fedico94@mchsi.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 and Plasma II ignition > > > I am building an RV-9A per Z-12 outline. The plane has one elctronic > ignition on the right going to the top cylinders and one Slick magneto on > the Left side. > > The manufacturer of the electronic ignition insists that the rather thin > electrical wire (shelded cable) be attached directly to the battery. I am > questioning the advisability of this unless a fuse or CB placed at the > battery. Uncomfotable with this hot wire entering the fuselage and being > seperated from the battery bus. If the fuse is on the engine side I feel > less in control to replace the fuse or reset the CB. Could not find any > references on the this website. Would appreciate your thoughts on this > matter. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.