---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/22/11: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:24 AM - Re: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Drafting - was TurboCAD 15 (Henador Titzoff) 2. 06:59 AM - Re: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Drafting - was TurboCAD 15 (jcarlton3@cox.net) 3. 07:55 AM - GNS-430 Install Manual (George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ) 4. 08:16 AM - Re: GNS-430 Install Manual (Ralph E. Capen) 5. 08:16 AM - Re: Flap System trouble shoot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:56 AM - DoubleCAD and Alibre Design (Alvin Voigt) 7. 09:13 AM - Cool! (Speedy11@aol.com) 8. 09:25 AM - Re: Cool! (James Kilford) 9. 09:39 AM - Re: DoubleCAD and Alibre Design (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 10. 09:44 AM - Re: Cool! (John Morgensen) 11. 10:07 AM - Re: GNS-430 Install Manual (George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ) 12. 11:55 AM - Re: Lightening up Z12 (rvg8tor) 13. 12:46 PM - ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (Fergus Kyle) 14. 01:12 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (rayj) 15. 01:26 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (Ralph Finch) 16. 01:28 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 17. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Lightening up Z12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 02:44 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (b d) 19. 03:05 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (b d) 20. 03:27 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (Richard Girard) 21. 03:43 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (Bob Meyers) 22. 04:12 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (b d) 23. 04:35 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (Robert Borger) 24. 04:36 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (rayj) 25. 04:38 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (Dj Merrill) 26. 04:52 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (Robert Borger) 27. 05:32 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (David) 28. 08:35 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (b d) 29. 08:40 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (b d) 30. 10:02 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (rayj) 31. 10:21 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (b d) 32. 10:36 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (rayj) 33. 10:59 PM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (Jared Yates) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:26 AM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Drafting - was TurboCAD 15 Jim,=0A=0AI agree that documentation and low price are two extremely import ant criteria for choosing this product. Another one is support. -I went t o the TurboCAD website, and all they talk about is Ver. 18. -Does this me an that previous versions, and especially 3 versions back, do not get suppo rted. -By support, I'm talking things like new components for their elect rical schematic tool. -I did notice that Ver. 18 doesnt have this tool. -Did they end life it?=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A__________________ ______________=0AFrom: Jim Wickert =0ATo: aeroelect ric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 11:19 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Drafting - was TurboCAD 15=0A nk.net>=0A=0AThere is one important point to remember when getting a Cad pa ckage=0ADocumentation.... Documentation this is one thing that makes Turbo Cad worth=0Athe $9.95 extremely good documentation and support.- I have t he Siemens 2&3=0AD Cad and their PLM package as well as others...... and fo r someone who is=0Aworking with CAD everyday they will come up to speed.- But for low time CAD=0Apeople and people who use it on a project once in t he Blue Moon that=0ADocumentation is a life saver.- I have nothing to gai n by the sale of Turbo=0ACad but as a tool for the low time user it is grea t and like I say the=0ADocumentation alone is worth the price of admission enough said.=0A=0AJim Wickert=0ATel 920-467-0219=0ACell 920-912-1014=0A=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matron ics.com=0A[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf O f John=0ALoram=0ASent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM=0ATo: aeroelectric- list@matronics.com=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Draf Loram" =0A=0ASiemens make the 2D version of it's high end 3D product available for free.=0A=0AComes with extensive libraries of mecha nical and electrical components.=0A=0AOutputs files in both its own format and industry standard formats.=0A=0AIt's a very capable product: http://www .solidedge.com/free2d=0A=0ATakes a while to download...=0A=0A-john-=0A=0A = ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Drafting - was TurboCAD 15 From: "jcarlton3@cox.net" Sent from my LG phone Henador Titzoff wrote: >Jim, > >I agree that documentation and low price are two extremely important criteria for choosing this product. Another one is support. I went to the TurboCAD website, and all they talk about is Ver. 18. Does this mean that previous versions, and especially 3 versions back, do not get supported. By support, I'm talking things like new components for their electrical schematic tool. I did notice that Ver. 18 doesnt have this tool. Did they end life it? > >Henador Titzoff > > >________________________________ >From: Jim Wickert >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 11:19 PM >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Drafting - was TurboCAD 15 > > >There is one important point to remember when getting a Cad package >Documentation.... Documentation this is one thing that makes Turbo Cad worth >the $9.95 extremely good documentation and support. I have the Siemens 2&3 >D Cad and their PLM package as well as others...... and for someone who is >working with CAD everyday they will come up to speed. But for low time CAD >people and people who use it on a project once in the Blue Moon that >Documentation is a life saver. I have nothing to gain by the sale of Turbo >Cad but as a tool for the low time user it is great and like I say the >Documentation alone is worth the price of admission enough said. > >Jim Wickert >Tel 920-467-0219 >Cell 920-912-1014 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John >Loram >Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Drafting - was TurboCAD 15 > > >Siemens make the 2D version of it's high end 3D product available for free. > >Comes with extensive libraries of mechanical and electrical components. > >Outputs files in both its own format and industry standard formats. > >It's a very capable product: http://www.solidedge.com/free2d > >Takes a while to download... > >-john- > >= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:36 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS-430 Install Manual From: "George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ" My Garmin GNS-400 Series Installation Manual is Revision K, dated May 2002. Anybody know if there is a more recent version? Neal ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:20 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GNS-430 Install Manual Neal, Mine's dated Nov '06 revision B, but it covers the WAAS version also. Don't know if that's a differentiator. Ralph ----- Original Message ----- From: George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:30 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS-430 Install Manual My Garmin GNS-400 Series Installation Manual is Revision K, dated May 2002. Anybody know if there is a more recent version? Neal ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:20 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap System trouble shoot At 01:54 AM 4/22/2011, you wrote: > >What's wrong with this picture? > >I'm trying to install an over-ride switch in conjunction with the >Aircraft Extras Flap Positioning System > >My flap motor is right up against the current limit of the AE FPS so >I installed two 30A ice cube relays. On the relay, 12v+ and the >motor terminals are NC. Pins 15 & 16 of the FPS are flaps up/down >out to motor. The rocker at the top is the flap selector switch in to FPS. > >The rocker at the bottom is the FPS circuit board over-ride switch. > >Pins 15 & 16 are normally ground, except when there's a system flap >input and either 15 or 16 goes to 12v+. I installed the diodes on >the 15/16 to relay coil legs because I was getting a dead >short when the override switch was closed. > >I thought that the diodes would solve the problem, but I'm still >blowing fuses whenever the override switch is closed. > >Any suggestions much appreciated. It would help if you could offer a schematic of the wiring as opposed to a pictorial. If you're using relays to separate the output of an existing control system from the motor, the I would expect the control system to drive relay coils and the motor would be powered from an alternative power source through relay contacts. In other words, there would be no exchange of energy between the control system and the motor . . . your drawing shows some wires that connect to motor . . . ????? The forth page of http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps.pdf illustrates a configuration of single-pole, double- throw relays used to accept inputs from a small switch for crew control of flaps. This same circuit with the switch removed would accept outputs from your flap control system. It would be helpful to know more about the flap control system. What's the 'current limit' issue all about. Normally, flap system draws are pretty benign, 10A or less. What is it about your particular flap configuration that makes it "oversized" for the control system. What is the design goal for an "override switch"? Can you point us to a link for the control system's installation manual? I would also encourage you to learn to draw in pure schematic form . . . it's the universal language of electrical systems behaviors. I once had to teach a group of Japanese technicians how to deal with some video equipment I designed. Their English was marginally useful, my Japanese was nil. But our mutual understanding of the schematics, video in general and the use of test equipment made a much lighter task of what could have been a no-value-added endeavor. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:35 AM PST US From: Alvin Voigt Subject: AeroElectric-List: DoubleCAD and Alibre Design IMSI Design develops and markets DoubleCAD and TurboCAD. DoubleCAD is marketed as a work alike replacement for AutoCAD LT and includ es some extensions not in AutoCAD LT. There is a DoubleCAD Pro for $695 and a DoubleCAD XT for free. DoubleCAD XT Version 3 can be downloaded from http://doublecad.com/. Docume ntation can be downloaded also. DoubleCAD seems to be providing the free XT version releases at the same ti me the Pro releases are provided. This means the free XT version is not an out of date Pro version. I have some experience with AutoCAD and notice a bunch of stuff retained in AutoCAD=2C AutoCAD LT=2C and DoubleCAD from the first AutoCAD versions I u sed on Eagle 8086 and HP 80286 computers. For 3D modeling=2C http://www.alibre.com/ markets Alibre design Expert for $1=2C399=2C Alibre Design Professional for $699=2C and Alibre Design Person al Edition for $99. Each $99 personal edition license includes registration for installation on three computers. Today=2C Friday=2C Alibre Design claims they are in a booth at Boeing's Fut ure of Flight annual Earth Day event. Alibre Design will be showing support at the WIKISPEED booth in Everett WA=2C so if you are in the Seattle area they say to come stop by and say hello! I copied this from Alibre but have no connection with the product expect to have spent $99 with them. I hope t o install soon. I have also used TurboCAD through Version 17 but without great delight. Tur boCAD is a different philosophy from AutoCAD and DoubleCAD. Alvin Voigt=2C Ashford=2C WA ' PST iamgodlisten@hotmail.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:04 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cool! This forum seemed to go dormant for about 6-8 months. I'm glad to see lots of discussion again. Stan Sutterfield ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cool! From: James Kilford Well, for my part, it's too cold up at the hangar for about 6 months a year! We've had a few days of blue skies and I'm starting to think about the last couple of electrical jobs I need to do! James On 22 April 2011 17:09, wrote: > This forum seemed to go dormant for about 6-8 months. I'm glad to see > lots of discussion again. > Stan Sutterfield > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:34 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: DoubleCAD and Alibre Design I have also used TurboCAD through Version 17 but without great delight. TurboCAD is a different philosophy from AutoCAD and DoubleCAD. Alvin Voigt, Ashford, WA - PST iamgodlisten@hotmail.com Alvin, Would you please elaborate on the "different philosophy" between the CAD programs? Thanks, Roger ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:43 AM PST US From: John Morgensen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cool! Not dormant at all. Check the web forum link below and your spam filters. john On 4/22/2011 9:09 AM, Speedy11@aol.com wrote: > This forum seemed to go dormant for about 6-8 months. I'm glad to see > lots of discussion again. > Stan Sutterfield > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:13 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GNS-430 Install Manual From: "George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ" Thanks folks - I have what I need. Stein comes thru again... neal =========== My Garmin GNS-400 Series Installation Manual is Revision K, dated May 2002. Anybody know if there is a more recent version? Neal ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:22 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Lightening up Z12 From: "rvg8tor" Bob, Since I would like to share one shunt, the shunt would have to come after the ANL for the main alternator and the fusible link for the standby alternator. Is there any issue with the placement of the shunt before or after the wire protection? Attached is a drawing of the proposal. You can see the fuseable link attaches to the shunt along wiht the B lead from the main alternator nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 03:59 PM 4/20/2011, you wrote: > > > > > > > I am going to ask this question a different way. In Z12 there are 2 > > alternators, on plays a standby roll and will only produce power > > when the main alternator goes out or is turned off. Given that only > > one alternator operates at a time only one ammeter would be needed > > to monitor the electrical load coming from the alternator providing > > the power. > > > > This reduces parts count; takes out a shunt and switch required to > > look at two shunts with on meter and or removes extra ammeter. > > > > So does anyone see any flaws in this logic? > > > > > > That will work > > > > Bob . . . -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337834#337834 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/electrical_system__power_distribution_shared_shunt_278.pdf ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:14 PM PST US From: Fergus Kyle Subject: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond Folks, I have just read today's list of messages. The plethora (a number of pleths) of unnecessary empty or repeated lines is staggering. A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but those above take note: The number of lines needed/number of lines taken gpa bruce 1 / 144 aslsa 2 / 264 jared 2 / 72 ainut 3 / 161 aslsa 2 / 200 Raymond 12/ 244 That's 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of which are empty or nonsensical. In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scrolling ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:37 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond YIPPIE!!!!!!! I got the best ratio!!!!!! do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 04/22/2011 02:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: > Folks, > > I have just read todays list of messages. The plethora (a number of > pleths)ofunnecessaryempty orrepeated > > lines is staggering. > > A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but those > above take note: > > The number of lines needed/number of lines taken > > gpa bruce1 / 144 > > aslsa 2 / 264 > > jared 2 / 72 > > ainut 3 / 161 > > aslsa 2 / 200 > > Raymond12/ 244 > > Thats 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of which are > empty ornonsensical.In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scrolling > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:33 PM PST US From: "Ralph Finch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond Add: Fergus Kyle 0/36 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 12:41 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond Folks, I have just read today's list of messages. The plethora (a number of pleths) of unnecessary empty or repeated lines is staggering. A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but those above take note: The number of lines needed/number of lines taken gpa bruce 1 / 144 aslsa 2 / 264 jared 2 / 72 ainut 3 / 161 aslsa 2 / 200 Raymond 12/ 244 That's 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of which are empty or nonsensical. In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scrolling ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:39 PM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond Folks, I have just read today's list of messages. The plethora (a number of pleths) of unnecessary empty or repeated lines is staggering. A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but those above take note: The number of lines needed/number of lines taken gpa bruce 1 / 144 aslsa 2 / 264 jared 2 / 72 ainut 3 / 161 aslsa 2 / 200 Raymond 12/ 244 That's 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of which are empty or nonsensical. In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scrolling Kyle, Don't you have anything better to do? This posting is more of a waste of time than any of the others. I admit that sometimes reply messages are posted without erasing nonessential garbage but this is ridiculous. All that is necessary is an occasional gentle reminder. Roger ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Lightening up Z12 At 02:50 PM 4/22/2011, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Since I would like to share one shunt, the shunt would have to come >after the ANL for the main alternator and the fusible link for the >standby alternator. Is there any issue with the placement of the >shunt before or after the wire protection? Attached is a drawing of >the proposal. > >You can see the fuseable link attaches to the shunt along wiht the B >lead from the main alternator What you show is fine. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: b d Gad aren't we so lucky to have someone like you to monitor and correct our dialog. Can you me a favor please?. . . Let's just take mine for example gpa bruce 1 / 144 and please show me how I should reduce the 144 lines to 1 line so I can learn and conserve on cyberspace too. Thank you, Bruce On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: > Folks, > > I have just read today=92s list of messages. The plethora (a numb er > of pleths) of unnecessary empty or repeated > > lines is staggering. > > A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but > those above take note: > > The number of lines needed/number of lines taken > > gpa bruce 1 / 144 > > aslsa 2 / 264 > > jared 2 / 72 > > ainut 3 / 161 > > aslsa 2 / 200 > > Raymond 12/ 244 > > That=92s 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of > which are empty or nonsensical. In one case 4 lines produced 464 of > scrolling > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: b d Yeh but I'm Number 1 on his list so I be da winner . . . . hee hee When do I get my award fer being the least "succinct"? Bruce On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:08 PM, rayj wrote: > > YIPPIE!!!!!!! I got the best ratio!!!!!! > > do not archive > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > > On 04/22/2011 02:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> I have just read today=92s list of messages. The plethora (a number of >> pleths)ofunnecessaryempty orrepeated >> >> lines is staggering. >> >> A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but those >> above take note: >> >> The number of lines needed/number of lines taken >> >> gpa bruce1 / 144 >> >> >> aslsa 2 / 264 >> >> jared 2 / 72 >> >> ainut 3 / 161 >> >> aslsa 2 / 200 >> >> Raymond12/ 244 >> >> >> That=92s 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of which a re >> empty ornonsensical.In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scrolling >> >> * >> >> >> * >> > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: Richard Girard Fergus, Recall the first two syllables of analysis, which seems to be the source of your post. Rick On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:02 PM, b d wrote: > Yeh but I'm Number 1 on his list so I be da winner . . . . hee hee > > When do I get my award fer being the least "succinct"? > > Bruce > > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:08 PM, rayj wrote: > >> >> YIPPIE!!!!!!! I got the best ratio!!!!!! >> >> do not archive >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> >> On 04/22/2011 02:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> I have just read today=92s list of messages. The plethora (a number of >>> pleths)ofunnecessaryempty orrepeated >>> >>> lines is staggering. >>> >>> A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but those >>> above take note: >>> >>> The number of lines needed/number of lines taken >>> >>> gpa bruce1 / 144 >>> >>> >>> aslsa 2 / 264 >>> >>> jared 2 / 72 >>> >>> ainut 3 / 161 >>> >>> aslsa 2 / 200 >>> >>> Raymond12/ 244 >>> >>> >>> That=92s 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of which are >>> empty ornonsensical.In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scrolling >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >>> >> st Un/Subscription, >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ==== >> >> >> >> > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:22 PM PST US From: Bob Meyers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond Hi Bruce, Assuming you don't have your tongue firmly in your cheek, I'll answer for the original poster and politely razz him a little at the same time. I have copied your entire post that he commented on below my signature (which probably won't please the original poster). He is upset that when you replied you did not remove or snip and shorten the previous posts you were replying too. A sample of how he would have liked your post to appear is below your original (and above the untrimmed post I am replying too). Some people seem to feel this is bad net manners, akin to spitting on the sidewalk or voting for the wrong party (take your pick). Admittedly, this does waste both network bandwidth and storage space, especially when untrimmed replies to replies to replies, etc, take place. However, we are living on a text only mail list here and your post, while having a high waste of space ratio, according to the original poster, is hardly very offensive in this regard. In fact, it is unlikely that it took up anymore storage space than a shortened message might on anybodies hard drives as it is likely all contained by itself on one sector of those hard drives because of minimum sector size issues. It might even have been contained in one data packet on the net as well - minus the mail server handshaking etc. I fully support snipping as I don't won't to waste anyones resources, but wasting time is also wasting resources and on some posts it just isn't worth it or the full context is desired. Either way, what I find down right rude is calling out specific individuals by name for what is at most a modest crime and documenting just how offensive they are to a self appointed scold. I would think an occasional gentle reminder to trim posts would be much more effective for someone who is upset by others netiquette. Since I want this post to be in the archives, I can't type the other space saving device I will assume the original poster may want you to use, but it starts with 'do not' and ends with 'archive' - hope the parser is strict! Bob Meyers Flight Testing Sonex N982SX Web Site Index http://N982SX.com > I second the motion . . . . you cannot hardly buy a book for $9.95 > these days let alone a CAD pkg plus the book . . . . > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Jim Wickert > wrote: > > > There is one important point to remember when getting a Cad package > Documentation.... Documentation this is one thing that makes Turbo > Cad worth > the $9.95 extremely good documentation and support. I have the > Siemens 2&3 > D Cad and their PLM package as well as others...... and for someone > who is > working with CAD everyday they will come up to speed. But for low > time CAD > people and people who use it on a project once in the Blue Moon that > Documentation is a life saver. I have nothing to gain by the sale > of Turbo > Cad but as a tool for the low time user it is great and like I say the > Documentation alone is worth the price of admission enough said. > > Jim Wickert > Tel 920-467-0219 > Cell 920-912-1014 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > John > Loram > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Siemens Solid Edge 2D Drafting - was > TurboCAD 15 > > > > Siemens make the 2D version of it's high end 3D product available > for free. > > Comes with extensive libraries of mechanical and electrical > components. > > Outputs files in both its own format and industry standard formats. > > It's a very capable product: http://www.solidedge.com/free2d > > Takes a while to download... > > -john- > > > s.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==== > > I second the motion . . . . you cannot hardly buy a book for $9.95 these days let alone a CAD pkg plus the book . . . . >>>Documentation alone is worth the price of admission enough said.<<< > On Apr 22, 2011, at 4:40 PM, b d wrote: > >> Gad aren't we so lucky to have someone like you to monitor and >> correct our dialog. Can you me a favor please?. . . Let's just take >> mine for example >> gpa bruce 1 / 144 >> >> and please show me how I should reduce the 144 lines to 1 line so I >> can learn and conserve on cyberspace too. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: >> Folks, >> >> I have just read today=92s list of messages. The plethora (a >> number of pleths) of unnecessary empty or repeated >> >> lines is staggering. >> >> A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space >> but those above take note: >> >> The number of lines needed/number of lines taken >> >> gpa bruce 1 / 144 >> >> aslsa 2 / 264 >> >> jared 2 / 72 >> >> ainut 3 / 161 >> >> aslsa 2 / 200 >> >> Raymond 12/ 244 >> >> That=92s 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most >> of which are empty or nonsensical. In one case 4 lines produced 464 >> of scrolling >> >> >> >> >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ttp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> =========== =========== =========== =========== >> > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: b d Bob, Your point is well taken . . . is this better? And for Fergus Kyle < VE3LVO@rac.ca> here are a couple lists I'm sure he will want to transfer to since he is so critical and intolerant of me and other people . . . perfect people only-list@matronics.com get-a-life-list@matronics.com *lintolerent republicans-list@matronics.com * Thanks, Bruce "Save Cyber Space . . . . people are watching what you say" ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: Robert Borger Bruce, Why don't you go try out Biggoted_Democrats-list@craniorectalinversion.com Bob On Apr 22, 2011, at 18:08, b d wrote: > Bob, Your point is well taken . . . is this better? And for Fergus Kyle here are a couple lists I'm sure he will want to transfer to since he is so critical and intolerant of me and other people . . . > > perfect people only-list@matronics.com > > get-a-life-list@matronics.com > > lintolerent republicans-list@matronics.com > > > Thanks, > > Bruce > "Save Cyber Space . . . . people are watching what you say" ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:27 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond ARE NOT! do not archive. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 04/22/2011 05:02 PM, b d wrote: > Yeh but I'm Number 1 on his list so I be da winner . . . . hee hee > When do I get my award fer being the least "succinct"? > Bruce > > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:08 PM, rayj > wrote: > > > > > YIPPIE!!!!!!! I got the best ratio!!!!!! > > do not archive > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > > On 04/22/2011 02:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: > > Folks, > > I have just read todays list of messages. The plethora (a number of > pleths)ofunnecessaryempty orrepeated > > lines is staggering. > > A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but those > above take note: > > The number of lines needed/number of lines taken > > gpa bruce1 / 144 > > > aslsa 2 / 264 > > jared 2 / 72 > > ainut 3 / 161 > > aslsa 2 / 200 > > Raymond12/ 244 > > > Thats 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of > which are > empty ornonsensical.In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scrolling > > * > > > * > > st Un/Subscription, > www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: Dj Merrill On Apr 22, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Bob Meyers wrote: > . I would think an occasional gentle reminder to trim posts would be much m ore effective for someone who is upset by others netiquette. > To be fair, we've had many gentle reminders over the years and they apparent ly do not seem to help. It is not just the space being taken up, it makes se arching the archives a major PITA. Because people do not trim their posts, s earching pulls up multiple hits of the same repeated text, often several pag es of hits, which makes the search function useless at times. So not only do we get to enjoy the rudeness in realtime, it lives on forever in the archives... -Dj ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: Robert Borger DJ, Unfortunately, you are correct in all matters mentioned. Perhaps we should all get back to building for a while and cool off. Bob Do not archive On Apr 22, 2011, at 18:35, Dj Merrill wrote: > On Apr 22, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Bob Meyers wrote: > >> . I would think an occasional gentle reminder to trim posts would be much more effective for someone who is upset by others netiquette. >> > > To be fair, we've had many gentle reminders over the years and they apparently do not seem to help. It is not just the space being taken up, it makes searching the archives a major PITA. Because people do not trim their posts, searching pulls up multiple hits of the same repeated text, often several pages of hits, which makes the search function useless at times. > > So not only do we get to enjoy the rudeness in realtime, it lives on forever in the archives... > > -Dj ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:00 PM PST US From: David Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond Usually people normally trim, but occasionally one has only a few moments to respond to an email... I find it terribly difficult to follow those who answer posts who trim *everything* except their own reply. David Dj Merrill wrote: > On Apr 22, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Bob Meyers > wrote: > >> . I would think an occasional gentle reminder to trim posts would be >> much more effective for someone who is upset by others netiquette. >> > > To be fair, we've had many gentle reminders over the years and they > apparently do not seem to help. It is not just the space being taken > up, it makes searching the archives a major PITA. Because people do > not trim their posts, searching pulls up multiple hits of the same > repeated text, often several pages of hits, which makes the search > function useless at times. > > So not only do we get to enjoy the rudeness in realtime, it lives on > forever in the archives... > > -Dj > > * > > > * -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: b d *Am Too!* ;-) Bruce do not archive. On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:32 PM, rayj wrote: > > ARE NOT! > > > do not archive. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > On 04/22/2011 05:02 PM, b d wrote: > >> Yeh but I'm Number 1 on his list so I be da winner . . . . hee hee >> When do I get my award fer being the least "succinct"? >> Bruce >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:08 PM, rayj > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> YIPPIE!!!!!!! I got the best ratio!!!!!! >> >> do not archive >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> >> On 04/22/2011 02:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> I have just read today=92s list of messages. The plethora (a numb er >> of >> pleths)ofunnecessaryempty orrepeated >> >> lines is staggering. >> >> A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but tho se >> above take note: >> >> The number of lines needed/number of lines taken >> >> gpa bruce1 / 144 >> >> >> >> aslsa 2 / 264 >> >> jared 2 / 72 >> >> ainut 3 / 161 >> >> aslsa 2 / 200 >> >> Raymond12/ 244 >> >> >> >> That=92s 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, most of >> which are >> empty ornonsensical.In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scrolling >> >> * >> >> >> * >> >> st Un/Subscription, >> >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lis t >> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ==== >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * >> > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: b d Already a member of that fine organization. . . . . . . Seen Bush & Cheney just the other night at the meeting . . . . They were giving a speech about how they, Haliburton, Black Water, and Exxon Mobile brought America to her knees just before they handed her to Obama to fix with no money . . . . . . got a great applause from Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh . . . . Thought I seen you there too . . . . hee hee Bruce do not archive On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > Bruce, > > Why don't you go try out Biggoted_Democrats-list@craniorectalinversion.com > > Bob > > On Apr 22, 2011, at 18:08, b d wrote: > > Bob, Your point is well taken . . . is this better? And for Fergus Kyle < > VE3LVO@rac.ca> here are a couple lists I'm sure he will want to transfer > to since he is so critical and intolerant of me and other people . . . > > perfect people only-list@matronics.com > > get-a-life-list@matronics.com > > *lintolerent republicans-list@matronics.com * > > > Thanks, > > Bruce > "Save Cyber Space . . . . people are watching what you say" > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:32 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond ok....... you are. :) (Thanks, I was beginning to think nobody had a sense of humor) do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 04/22/2011 10:29 PM, b d wrote: > *Am Too!* ;-) > Bruce > do not archive. > > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:32 PM, rayj > wrote: > > > > > ARE NOT! > > > do not archive. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > On 04/22/2011 05:02 PM, b d wrote: > > Yeh but I'm Number 1 on his list so I be da winner . . . . hee hee > When do I get my award fer being the least "succinct"? > Bruce > > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:08 PM, rayj > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > YIPPIE!!!!!!! I got the best ratio!!!!!! > > do not archive > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > > On 04/22/2011 02:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: > > Folks, > > I have just read todays list of messages. The plethora > (a number of > pleths)ofunnecessaryempty orrepeated > > lines is staggering. > > A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of > space but those > above take note: > > The number of lines needed/number of lines taken > > gpa bruce1 / 144 > > > aslsa 2 / 264 > > jared 2 / 72 > > ainut 3 / 161 > > aslsa 2 / 200 > > Raymond12/ 244 > > > Thats 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, > most of > which are > empty ornonsensical.In one case 4 lines produced 464 of > scrolling > > * > > > * > > st Un/Subscription, > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > " > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ronics.com/ " > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==== > > > * > > > * > > st Un/Subscription, > www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: b d Hee hee . . . . mee too . . . . and ain't John Prine good? I didn't think anyone remembered him? (And now we know someones button we can push heh? ) On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:58 PM, rayj wrote: > > ok....... you are. :) (Thanks, I was beginning to think nobody had a sens e > of humor) > > do not archive > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > On 04/22/2011 10:29 PM, b d wrote: > >> *Am Too!* ;-) >> Bruce >> do not archive. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:32 PM, rayj > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> ARE NOT! >> >> >> do not archive. >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> On 04/22/2011 05:02 PM, b d wrote: >> >> Yeh but I'm Number 1 on his list so I be da winner . . . . hee he e >> When do I get my award fer being the least "succinct"? >> Bruce >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:08 PM, rayj > >> > >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> YIPPIE!!!!!!! I got the best ratio!!!!!! >> >> do not archive >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> >> On 04/22/2011 02:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> I have just read today=92s list of messages. The plethora >> (a number of >> pleths)ofunnecessaryempty orrepeated >> >> lines is staggering. >> >> A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of >> space but those >> above take note: >> >> The number of lines needed/number of lines >> taken >> >> gpa bruce1 / 144 >> >> >> >> aslsa 2 / 264 >> >> jared 2 / 72 >> >> ainut 3 / 161 >> >> aslsa 2 / 200 >> >> Raymond12/ 244 >> >> >> >> That=92s 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, >> most of >> which are >> empty ornonsensical.In one case 4 lines produced 464 of >> scrolling >> >> * >> >> >> * >> >> st Un/Subscription, >> >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> " >> >> target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ronics.com/ " >> >> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> >> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ==== >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * >> >> st Un/Subscription, >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lis t >> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ==== >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * >> > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:15 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond Yeah, but there are so many on so many lists, and it's so easy, it kinda takes the fun out of it. do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 04/23/2011 12:18 AM, b d wrote: > Hee hee . . . . mee too . . . . and ain't John Prine good? I didn't > think anyone remembered him? > (And now we know someones button we can push heh? ) > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:58 PM, rayj > wrote: > > > > > ok....... you are. :) (Thanks, I was beginning to think nobody had a > sense of humor) > > do not archive > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > On 04/22/2011 10:29 PM, b d wrote: > > *Am Too!* ;-) > Bruce > do not archive. > > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:32 PM, rayj > >> wrote: > > > >> > > ARE NOT! > > > do not archive. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > On 04/22/2011 05:02 PM, b d wrote: > > Yeh but I'm Number 1 on his list so I be da winner . . . > . hee hee > When do I get my award fer being the least "succinct"? > Bruce > > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:08 PM, rayj > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > > > YIPPIE!!!!!!! I got the best ratio!!!!!! > > do not archive > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - > John Prine > > > On 04/22/2011 02:41 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote: > > Folks, > > I have just read todays list of messages. The > plethora > (a number of > pleths)ofunnecessaryempty orrepeated > > lines is staggering. > > A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of > space but those > above take note: > > The number of lines needed/number of > lines taken > > gpa bruce1 / 144 > > > aslsa 2 / 264 > > jared 2 / 72 > > ainut 3 / 161 > > aslsa 2 / 200 > > Raymond12/ 244 > > > Thats 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of > explanation, > most of > which are > empty ornonsensical.In one case 4 lines produced > 464 of > scrolling > > * > > > * > > st Un/Subscription, > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > " > > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ronics.com/ " > > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==== > > > * > > > * > > st Un/Subscription, > www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > " > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ronics.com/ " > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==== > > > * > > > * > > st Un/Subscription, > www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond From: Jared Yates I Also Used 3 Extra Sheets Of Tp today But I Still Don't Know Anything More About Shielded Wires. On Apr 22, 2011, at 15:41, Fergus Kyle wrote: > Folks, > > I have just read today=99s list of messages. The plethora (a number of pleths) of unnecessary empty or repeated > > lines is staggering. > > A kudos to those who are succinct and unwasteful of space but thos e above take note: > > The number of lines needed/number of lines taken > > gpa bruce 1 / 144 > > aslsa 2 / 264 > > jared 2 / 72 > > ainut 3 / 161 > > aslsa 2 / 200 > > Raymond 12/ 244 > > That=99s 22 lines of info and 1085 lines of explanation, mos t of which are empty or nonsensical. In one case 4 lines produced 464 of scr olling > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.