AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 04/25/11


Total Messages Posted: 10



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:28 AM - Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (tomcostanza)
     2. 04:22 AM - Re: Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond (b d)
     3. 07:03 AM - Re: Flap System trouble shoot (user9253)
     4. 07:53 AM - Re: D-Sub and other small connections (messydeer)
     5. 08:12 AM - Re: Flap System trouble shoot (Jeff Page)
     6. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: D-Sub and other small connections (Paul Kuntz)
     7. 03:11 PM - Re: Flap System trouble shoot (jonlaury)
     8. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: D-Sub and other small connections (Etienne Phillips)
     9. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: D-Sub and other small connections (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: D-Sub and other small connections (Charlie England)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:28:43 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond
    From: "tomcostanza" <Tom@CostanzaAndAssociates.com>
    "Parse that in the Latin declension, and my point is still moot" -Cliff Claven > Furgusmaycomeandcheckoutyourwastepaperbaskettomakesureyouusedeverysquareinchoftoiletpaperanddidn'twasteanylinesorleaveaplethoraofemptyspaces. > bruce -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338040#338040


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:22:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: ATTN:gpabruce,aslsa,ainut & raymond
    From: b d <gpabruce@gmail.com>
    "Cheers" to you too! :-) Bruce On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 3:24 AM, tomcostanza <Tom@costanzaandassociates.com>wrote: > <Tom@CostanzaAndAssociates.com> > > "Parse that in the Latin declension, and my point is still moot" > -Cliff Claven > > > > > Furgusmaycomeandcheckoutyourwastepaperbaskettomakesureyouusedeverysquareinchoftoiletpaperanddidn'twasteanylinesorleaveaplethoraofemptyspaces. > > bruce > > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338040#338040 > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:03:43 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Flap System trouble shoot
    From: "user9253" <fran4sew@banyanol.com>
    Make sure that the manual switch is connected to the hot side of the relay coils and not to the grounded side. And make sure that the switch is wired correctly. Depending on the size of the relays, it is possible that high inrush current is blowing a 2 amp fuse. Try a 5 amp. Or substitute a small 12 volt light bulb for the fuse. If 12 volts are dropped across the light bulb, then there is a short to ground someplace. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338058#338058


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:53:17 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: D-Sub and other small connections
    From: "messydeer" <messydeer@yahoo.com>
    Thanks, guys :-) I've used both B&C and Steinair before and would prefer to deal with either of them, but they don't have the parts I'd need. I may see how soldering the 'crimp' card edge contacts and if it doesn't work, switch to crimping. Etienne, it sounds like both crimping and soldering under the panel is a pain, but you would still choose soldering if you were to do it over again, assuming you'd NOT be able to get the wires out? Besides this transponder, I'll be getting and installing a COM radio, headset wiring, and an ELT. After flying, I may install wingtip lights. Other than this, all the wiring is already installed, including that for the EFIS. With any luck I hope to not have to pull out a 'massive loom', since the avionics would be last in, first out. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338067#338067


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:12:07 AM PST US
    From: Jeff Page <jpx@qenesis.com>
    Subject: Re: Flap System trouble shoot
    John, If you have wired everything per your drawing, the fuse should not blow, so look first for a wiring error. After you get that fixed, there are two changes I suggest. In your diagram, it looks like you are using a double pole switch for the manual override. So with the switch in neutral position, there is no ground to the relay coils. This means the automatic controller cannot turn on the relays. Just delete that half of the switch and ground that side of both relay coils to allow automatic control. The other suggestion I have is to trade both the NC and NO connections on the relays. As shown, when not energized, all the flap motor wires have +12V. To energize, one of those wires is grounded. Perhaps better is normally both wires grounded and when activated, one goes to +12V. This way, if a wire shorts to the airframe, it would not normally have power in it. Less likely to cause a fire ? In effect, this reverses the operation of the relays, so you will need to switch the wires to the flap motor, so it turns in the same direction as it originally did. Just to be sure, the switch you need is a single pole, double throw, center off momentary switch for manual flap activation. If you already have a double pole version, one side can be left unwired. The aeroelectric switch type is 1-7. Looks like a nifty flap controller. If I didn't have manual flaps, I would be really tempted to order one. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > Time: 08:02:54 PM PST US > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap System trouble shoot > From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury@impulse.net> > >> Are you sure your diodes are installed correclty? > > > I'm pretty sure, without it being in front of me now. > The cathode (banded end) of the diode faces the coil of the relay. > And the FPS selector switch operates the FPS and flap motor in > either direction > as intended. If a diode was backward, then power would not flow from 15 or 16 > to the relay coil. > I also tested the diodes against a new one. They were identical. R > is on the order > of 1500 K ohms, voltage drop is about .54


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:45:32 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: D-Sub and other small connections
    From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz@gmail.com>
    Dan, I picked u a molex crimper part number 63811-1000<http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_304928_-1>, which I ordered from Jameco Electronics. There are other vendors that carry it as well. It has worked well for a variety of open-barrel type crimps like the ones on your card edge. I didn't have one at first and was in a hurry, so I tried hand crimping with small needle nose pliers, then soldering, because I was in a hurry. Neither method produced results that I was satisfied with, so I did what I should have done at the start -- ordered a proper butt-cheek style crimper and worked on other things for few days until it arrived. It's easy to use and produces a good crimp every time. I quickly got the hang of picking the right size notch in the tool for the size of the connector pin and wire being crimped. Regards, Paul Kuntz On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 7:49 AM, messydeer <messydeer@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Thanks, guys :-) > > I've used both B&C and Steinair before and would prefer to deal with either > of them, but they don't have the parts I'd need. I may see how soldering the > 'crimp' card edge contacts and if it doesn't work, switch to crimping. > > Etienne, it sounds like both crimping and soldering under the panel is a > pain, but you would still choose soldering if you were to do it over again, > assuming you'd NOT be able to get the wires out? > > Besides this transponder, I'll be getting and installing a COM radio, > headset wiring, and an ELT. After flying, I may install wingtip lights. > Other than this, all the wiring is already installed, including that for the > EFIS. With any luck I hope to not have to pull out a 'massive loom', since > the avionics would be last in, first out. > > -------- > Dan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338067#338067 > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:11:18 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Flap System trouble shoot
    From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
    Thank you all for your suggestions. After pulling things apart and blowing a few more fuses, the thing started working as intended. I was pulling off a relay coil spike-catcher diode, to see if that would make a difference, and I inadvertently grounded the 14 ga + to the flap motor and blew the 15a fuse. When I tried the FPS system, the flap motor wouldn't run but the manual switch was now activating the relays. Same for the FPS. I replaced the 15a fuse and s-c diode and everything works fine. I don't know what was causing the problem, but I suspect some errant strand of wire that was causing a dead short. Maybe the 15a got into it and vaporized it. In soldering the diodes into the wire legs, I wrap the splice with a single strand of fine wire to hold it in place while soldering. I suspect an errant piece of this was lying across a coil terminal to ground invisible to these far-sighted eyeballs. I also disassembled the flap motor from the worm-drive jack screw because of Bob's surprise at the 7.5a no-load draw. The motor by itself draws 2.4a. I thought that maybe the jack screw mechanism was gummed up with old hard dried-up grease so I disassembled it too. The grease was fresh and all parts turned easily. Back together the motor still draws 7a +/-. Just the nature of this beast. The Aircraft Extras Flap Positioning System works really well and is a breeze to use. Highly recommended for those with electric flaps. John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338107#338107


    Message 8


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    Time: 04:35:49 PM PST US
    From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: D-Sub and other small connections
    On 25 Apr 2011, at 4:49 PM, messydeer wrote: > Etienne, it sounds like both crimping and soldering under the panel is a pain, but you would still choose soldering if you were to do it over again, assuming you'd NOT be able to get the wires out? Yes... However, that's driven by some fairly unique factors. I've been soldering almost daily since I was 6, and getting hold of decent machined crimp pins for D-Subs are prohibitively expensive from here in South Africa. I tried the cheap folded sheet pins, and they are horrendous! My final choice was the solder-cup D-Subs, with heat-shrink over each wire and a housing over the whole plug, supporting the wires in a nice bundle. An entire 15-pin solder-cup D-Sub assembly is cheaper than a single machined crimp pin here, and that's when ordering hundreds of pins at a go, and excluding the cost of the required tooling! A point to add is that the MGL V10 radio is supplied with a solder-cup plug. If I were to do it over, I would still use the solder-cup d-subs, but I'd make sure I could get the harness out. As it stands, I am able to remove each instrument without any difficulty. Bear in mind too that significant effort went into labelling each wire, and checking that it was soldered correctly. So different choices for different people. Most of the arguments I've heard for crimped pins (aside from the repeatability for unskilled labour) revolves around being able to shuffle the pins around. If the harness is made correctly the first time, the amount of shuffling that needs to be done is minimal in most cases. The next consideration is the stiffening of the wire (bad for vibration tolerance) around a soldered joint due to the solder wicking up into the strands of the wire. Bob can comment specifically on this, but my understanding is that if the wire is supported in the D-Sub housing, there should be no additional concern over crimped pins in this regard. In my aircraft, I can lose the entire electrical system with no discomfort. I am day VFR only pilot, and have steam backups for the airspeed, altimeter and engine indications. I also have a handheld radio, no flaps, manual trim, fixed undercarriage, and twin magnetos. So if any wire were to come loose, the heatshrink should stop it from shorting out, but if it did then at worst it would pop a circuit breaker, and I'd sort it out on the ground. My solution to the transponder problem, if it were me, would be to solder pigtails directly onto the card, leading to a 15- or 25-pin D-Sub. This would eliminate those awful low-pressure card-edge connectors that are nigh impossible to find now days. I would use a flexible epoxy to cover the soldered joints onto the card to offer some form of vibration relief on the hardened wire. This might mean modifying the tray, but it would yield an easily disconnectable instrument. This solution may very well have hidden dragons though, so I offer it for peer review! Thanks Etienne


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:39:01 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: D-Sub and other small connections
    If I were to do it over, I would still use the solder-cup d-subs, but I'd make sure I could get the harness out. As it stands, I am able to remove each instrument without any difficulty. In the heavy-iron factories, we endeavor to make each instrument harness long enough that the connectors can be mated up before the instrument is stuck in the hole and mounted. There is NO way you lay on your back and work behind the panel on a King Air or Beechjet. Bear in mind too that significant effort went into labelling each wire, and checking that it was soldered correctly. So different choices for different people. Most of the arguments I've heard for crimped pins (aside from the repeatability for unskilled labour) revolves around being able to shuffle the pins around. If the harness is made correctly the first time, the amount of shuffling that needs to be done is minimal in most cases. With reasonable care, the solder-cup connector is perfectly suitable component. I published this installation comic-book some years ago . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/dsubs/d_solder.html The next consideration is the stiffening of the wire (bad for vibration tolerance) around a soldered joint due to the solder wicking up into the strands of the wire. Bob can comment specifically on this, but my understanding is that if the wire is supported in the D-Sub housing, there should be no additional concern over crimped pins in this regard. Behind-the-joints support on d-subs is necessary whether the pins are soldered or crimped. Neither pin technology offers insulation support behind the pin-to-wire interface. The wire is just as 'solid' inside a crimped pin as it is on a soldered pin. So use the hoods . . . or pot the back side like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html My solution to the transponder problem, if it were me, would be to solder pigtails directly onto the card, leading to a 15- or 25-pin D-Sub. This would eliminate those awful low-pressure card-edge connectors that are nigh impossible to find now days. I would use a flexible epoxy to cover the soldered joints onto the card to offer some form of vibration relief on the hardened wire. This might mean modifying the tray, but it would yield an easily disconnectable instrument. This solution may very well have hidden dragons though, so I offer it for peer review! Been there, done that. Works good and lasts a long time. You'll want to fabricate a bench test harness to send along with your radio if it has to go to the shop so the tech can power it up. Bob . . . Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:41:13 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: D-Sub and other small connections
    On 4/25/2011 6:28 PM, Etienne Phillips wrote: > > On 25 Apr 2011, at 4:49 PM, messydeer wrote: > >> Etienne, it sounds like both crimping and soldering under the panel >> is a pain, but you would still choose soldering if you were to do it >> over again, assuming you'd NOT be able to get the wires out? > > Yes... However, that's driven by some fairly unique factors. I've been > soldering almost daily since I was 6, and getting hold of decent > machined crimp pins for D-Subs are prohibitively expensive from here > in South Africa. I tried the cheap folded sheet pins, and they are > horrendous! My final choice was the solder-cup D-Subs, with > heat-shrink over each wire and a housing over the whole plug, > supporting the wires in a nice bundle. An entire 15-pin solder-cup > D-Sub assembly is cheaper than a single machined crimp pin here, and > that's when ordering hundreds of pins at a go, and excluding the cost > of the required tooling! A point to add is that the MGL V10 radio is > supplied with a solder-cup plug. > > If I were to do it over, I would still use the solder-cup d-subs, but > I'd make sure I could get the harness out. As it stands, I am able to > remove each instrument without any difficulty. Bear in mind too that > significant effort went into labelling each wire, and checking that it > was soldered correctly. So different choices for different people. > Most of the arguments I've heard /for/ crimped pins (aside from the > repeatability for unskilled labour) revolves around being able to > shuffle the pins around. If the harness is made correctly the first > time, the amount of shuffling that needs to be done is minimal in most > cases. > > The next consideration is the stiffening of the wire (bad for > vibration tolerance) around a soldered joint due to the solder wicking > up into the strands of the wire. Bob can comment specifically on this, > but my understanding is that if the wire is supported in the D-Sub > housing, there should be no additional concern over crimped pins in > this regard. > > In my aircraft, I can lose the entire electrical system with no > discomfort. I am day VFR only pilot, and have steam backups for the > airspeed, altimeter and engine indications. I also have a handheld > radio, no flaps, manual trim, fixed undercarriage, and twin magnetos. > So if any wire were to come loose, the heatshrink should stop it from > shorting out, but if it did then at worst it would pop a circuit > breaker, and I'd sort it out on the ground. > > My solution to the transponder problem, if it were me, would be to > solder pigtails directly onto the card, leading to a 15- or 25-pin > D-Sub. This would eliminate those awful low-pressure card-edge > connectors that are nigh impossible to find now days. I would use a > flexible epoxy to cover the soldered joints onto the card to offer > some form of vibration relief on the hardened wire. This might mean > modifying the tray, but it would yield an easily disconnectable > instrument. This solution may very well have hidden dragons though, so > I offer it for peer review! > > Thanks > Etienne I've successfully soldered quite a few of the edge type pins pictured in an earlier email; I just manually folded the shorter wings with needle nose pliers, soldered, then manually wrapped the longer wings. Not a lot of fun, but very 'do-able'. However, Etienne's solution makes even more sense, as long as warranty isn't an issue. By paying the price of an extra few ounces & some careful planning, you can avoid diving under the panel for future soldering or crimping sessions. Just make service loops & routing so the connectors can be brought out into the cockpit, or even out over the wing for soldering sessions. Charlie




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