Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:34 AM - Re: Bad fast-on connection? (Kevin Horton)
2. 02:36 AM - Re: Bad fast-on connection? (Kevin Horton)
3. 06:55 AM - Re: Bad fast-on connection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:07 AM - Re: Bad fast-on connection? (B Tomm)
5. 09:09 AM - Fw: A note from Greg at B&C (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:17 AM - lithium batteries (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
7. 10:45 AM - Re: lithium batteries (Jan de Jong)
8. 01:59 PM - Modifying Seat Heater Wiring (MLWynn@aol.com)
9. 02:28 PM - Re: B&C fast-ons (Neil Clayton)
10. 03:08 PM - Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring (Christopher SeaStone)
11. 03:26 PM - Re: B&C fast-ons (Dennis Johnson)
12. 03:57 PM - Re: lithium batteries (Michael McMahon)
13. 04:42 PM - Re: Bad fast-on connection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 04:47 PM - Re: Re: B&C fast-ons (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 04:51 PM - Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring (MLWynn@aol.com)
16. 05:34 PM - Re: lithium batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 05:39 PM - Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: lithium batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 06:16 PM - Re: Bad fast-on connection? (eschlanser)
20. 06:28 PM - Re: B&C fast-ons (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 06:44 PM - Re: B&C fast-ons (Neil Clayton)
22. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Bad fast-on connection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 07:22 PM - Re: B&C fast-ons (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 08:05 PM - Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring (Christopher SeaStone)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Bad fast-on connection? |
On 2011-05-09, at 20:26 , Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> At 08:09 PM 5/9/2011, you wrote:
>>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> I'm sure you'll get other smart replies, but here are my thoughts..
>>
>> - Have you done something to verify that it's a deficiency in the fast-on-spade
interconnect? Short of an alloy problem, an overheat, or ongoing mechanical
stress, I have a tough time believing that's the problem.
>> - Could it be that when you pull the fast-on off the spade, you're resetting
some other connection in the functional chain? A bad crimp? Some other loose
connection?
>> - Is there another hot connection available on the fuse block?
>> - Is that an always-hot connection (battery bus)?
>> - I assume the fuse block is in the cabin where it stays dry and at a reasonable
temperature...
>> - If you cut the connector off, save it for Bob.. He'll probably want to look
at it. ;)
>
> Good suggestions Matt. I wish I knew where B&C buys
> inventory these days. There IS a potential problem
> with fast-ons crafted from softer alloys. The fact that
> you EVER had to 'tighten' this terminal gives one pause
> to wonder. Get a minimum 10-pak of these
>
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name-903-ND
>
> and use to replace the fast-on already installed.
>
> Also, see if you can exchange the 'problem' wire
> with another terminal that powers a lower current
> draw/less critical accessory.
>
> If you need to make a wire longer, use a soldered
> lap-splice under heatshrink to extend the wire.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Solder_Lap_Splicing/Solder_Lap_Splices.html
I am also having a very hard time believing that this connection is really the
source of my problem. But, everything else checked out good, and reseating this
connector fixed the problem twice.
The power wire disappears into a wire bundle a few inches after the fast-on, so
not much else could be disturbed when I reset the connector. The wire itself
is moved, the fast-on crimp might be disturbed, and something inside the fuse
block might be disturbed. That's about it I think. Maybe the crimp is the real
problem.
The fuse block is behind the instrument panel, accessible through a door on the
back side of the forward luggage compartment, and is not open to the elements
in any way. It is not an always-hot bus. It is the endurance bus in a classical
Z-12 system architecture.
I'll order some new fast-ons from Digikey and throw out the stock I bought from
B&C years ago. Then I'll splice the wire and use a new fast-on.
Thanks for the advice.
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Bad fast-on connection? |
Hal,
It's a 10a fuse, and I'm pretty sure the wire is 18 AWG.
Kevin
On 2011-05-09, at 22:43 , halbenjamin@optonline.net wrote:
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
> My 2 cents is on the crimped connection of the fast on tab. I don't know what
size the wire is, but I'm guessing that it is very light gauge. With the very
light gauge wires (< 20AWG) I have better luck getting a good crimp by stripping
twice the length of wire needed & folding in half prior to installing the
terminal. Hope this helps.
>
> Hal Benjamin
> RV-4, Long Island, NY
> On the last 999 items
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kevin Horton
> Date: Monday, May 9, 2011 7:46 pm
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bad fast-on connection?
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>
>>
>> I fought a GNS430W TX issue a while ago that was eventually
>> apparently resolved by reseating the fast-on connector where the
>> power line connects to the fuse block. The radio had worked
>> fine for 2.5 years, then suddenly was transmitting carrier only.
>> I ran out of ideas, so I eventually pulled the power connector
>> off the fuse block, squeezed the fast-on a bit with pliers, and
>> wiggled it back on, and the radio worked fine for five weeks.
>> Today it was not transmitting again. I removed, squeezed and
>> reinstalled the same fast-on connector again, and the problem
>> appears to be solved, again.
>>
>> I'm baffled by why this fast-on seems to be giving me grief.
>> Both the fast-on connectors and the fuse block were purchased
>> from B&C Specialties, so I believe they are good quality.
>>
>> I'm not sure what I should do to hopefully permanently fix the
>> issue. I'd appreciate any comments on the following possible
>> courses of action, plus I'd love any other suggestions:
>>
>> 1. cut off the problem fast-on, splice the wire with a butt
>> splice and install a new fast-on (the wire is not long enough to
>> do this unless I splice it).
>>
>> 2. use dielectric grease on the connection, such as the Dynatex
>> product sold by Stein Avionics:
>>
>> http://www.steinair.com/chemicals.htm
>> http://www.accumetricinc.com/dynatex/PDF/49634.pdf
>>
>> 3. replace the Buss fuse block (purchased from B&C Specialites)
>> with a new one.
>>
>> 4. bypass the fuse block with a ring terminal connected to the
>> fuse block's input, and an inline fuse. This gets rid of the
>> fast-on connector in this circuit, but replaces it with a ring
>> terminal.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Horton
>> RV-8
>> Ottawa, Canada
>> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>>
>>
>>
--
Kevin Horton
Ottawa, Canada
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Bad fast-on connection? |
>
>I am also having a very hard time believing that this connection is
>really the source of my problem. But, everything else checked out
>good, and reseating this connector fixed the problem twice.
Yes . . . correlation does not necessarily translate
to causation . . . but the evidence uncovered thus far
is compelling.
>The power wire disappears into a wire bundle a few inches after the
>fast-on, so not much else could be disturbed when I reset the
>connector. The wire itself is moved, the fast-on crimp might be
>disturbed, and something inside the fuse block might be
>disturbed. That's about it I think. Maybe the crimp is the real problem.
>
>The fuse block is behind the instrument panel, accessible through a
>door on the back side of the forward luggage compartment, and is not
>open to the elements in any way. It is not an always-hot bus. It
>is the endurance bus in a classical Z-12 system architecture.
>
>I'll order some new fast-ons from Digikey and throw out the stock I
>bought from B&C years ago.
Send them to me please . . .
> Then I'll splice the wire and use a new fast-on.
>
>Thanks for the advice.
We've had the butt-uglies rear their heads on
several fast-on installations over the years with
a very few instances where there was no clear causation
other than to chalk it up to loss of gas-tightness
somewhere.
I presume there's no evidence of discoloration that
can be attributed to overheating. This leaves us
with simple corrosion as a byproduct of loss of
force in the joint. Perhaps you'll discover new
information as you proceed.
Keep us apprised of your efforts and findings.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Bad fast-on connection? |
Would a conductive paste applied to the spade before attaching the faston
help to keep the joint free of all things that facilitate corrosion? Would
such a paste handle the heat of the joint?
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bad fast-on connection?
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>I am also having a very hard time believing that this connection is
>really the source of my problem. But, everything else checked out
>good, and reseating this connector fixed the problem twice.
Yes . . . correlation does not necessarily translate
to causation . . . but the evidence uncovered thus far
is compelling.
>The power wire disappears into a wire bundle a few inches after the
>fast-on, so not much else could be disturbed when I reset the
>connector. The wire itself is moved, the fast-on crimp might be
>disturbed, and something inside the fuse block might be disturbed.
>That's about it I think. Maybe the crimp is the real problem.
>
>The fuse block is behind the instrument panel, accessible through a
>door on the back side of the forward luggage compartment, and is not
>open to the elements in any way. It is not an always-hot bus. It is
>the endurance bus in a classical Z-12 system architecture.
>
>I'll order some new fast-ons from Digikey and throw out the stock I
>bought from B&C years ago.
Send them to me please . . .
> Then I'll splice the wire and use a new fast-on.
>
>Thanks for the advice.
We've had the butt-uglies rear their heads on
several fast-on installations over the years with
a very few instances where there was no clear causation
other than to chalk it up to loss of gas-tightness
somewhere.
I presume there's no evidence of discoloration that
can be attributed to overheating. This leaves us
with simple corrosion as a byproduct of loss of
force in the joint. Perhaps you'll discover new
information as you proceed.
Keep us apprised of your efforts and findings.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fwd: A note from Greg at B&C |
From: "Greg Jones" <greg@bandc.biz>
Subject: B&C Terminals
Bob,
I am confirming that all B&C FastOn terminals, Knife splices, Butt
slices, Insulated ring terminals, and Uninsulated ring terminals ARE
IN FACT Genuine Amp products.
Thanks!
Greg Jones
Greg Jones
Sales/Customer Service
B&C Specialty Products, Inc.
123 East 4th Street
POB B
Newton, Kansas 67114 USA
Phone (316) 283-8000
Fax (316) 283-7400
Email
<file:///C:/DOCUME~1/ADMINI~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/mailto:greg@bandc.biz>greg@bandc.biz
Website
<file:///C:/DOCUME~1/ADMINI~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/http://www.bandc.biz/>www.bandc.biz
Message 6
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| Subject: | lithium batteries |
I would like to hear your Bob's or other folks comments about aviation use
of the lithium batteries supplied here:
http://www.lithiumaviationbattery.com/index.html
they seem to offer signficant weight reduction
thanks
Erich Weaver
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: lithium batteries |
This has been discussed two months ago: see archives "Shorai".
I don't think I could add anything.
Jan de Jong
Message 8
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| Subject: | Modifying Seat Heater Wiring |
Hi all,
I am wiring up the seat heaters in my RV 8. I bought the option from
Classic Aero when they made the seats. The heaters are carbon fiber and come
from sports imports:
_http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html_
(http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html)
They are set up with a switch that operates a solid state relay of some
sort. The factory supplied switch wiring does not work at all with where I
need to put the switches so I was going to rewire them. I am assuming that
the relays don't draw a lot of current. My question is what size wire to
use. B&C has a nice four wire cable in 22 gauge. For a three foot run,
that should be fine as long as we are talking a couple of amps or less.
Has anyone measured the current draw for the switches in these seat
heaters? Is there a simple way for me to do that? Maybe take a two ohm
resistor, turn on the heater and measure the voltage drop across the resistor?
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV 8 Wiring
San Ramon, CA
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: B&C fast-ons |
Talking about Fast-ons, 1/4" female fast-ons seem easy to find, but I can't seem
to locate male ones.
Neil
On May 9, 2011, at 10:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> I just checked the B&C website catalog and they
> state that their crimp on terminal offerings are
> genuine AMP PIDG . . .
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Neil Clayton
harvey4@earthlink.net
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring |
Hello Michael,
The last RV-8 I built had the sports imports seat heaters. Each set (seat
and back) require approx 100 watts. about 7 amps at 14v. You can re-wire
but I recommend using their relay although any DPDT relay with contacts
rated for at least 7 amps and a 14 volt continuous duty coil. You can
substitute and SPDT switch rated for 7 amps or more for the high/low.
Actually all you will use is Hi. The heaters work well but a warm flight
suit is still required if you spend any time in cold air (below -10 C).
Chris Stone
Newberg OR
RV-8 No 2
>
> I am wiring up the seat heaters in my RV 8. I bought the option from
> Classic Aero when they made the seats. The heaters are carbon fiber and
> come from sports imports:
>
> http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html
>
> They are set up with a switch that operates a solid state relay of some
> sort. The factory supplied switch wiring does not work at all with where I
> need to put the switches so I was going to rewire them. I am assuming that
> the relays don't draw a lot of current. My question is what size wire to
> use. B&C has a nice four wire cable in 22 gauge. For a three foot run,
> that should be fine as long as we are talking a couple of amps or less.
>
> Has anyone measured the current draw for the switches in these seat
> heaters? Is there a simple way for me to do that? Maybe take a two ohm
> resistor, turn on the heater and measure the voltage drop across the
> resistor?
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Wynn
> RV 8 Wiring
> San Ramon, CA
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: B&C fast-ons |
I had the same problem with a Fast-On connector attached to a B&C fuse block.
The Fast-On was an AMP PIDG model. I was having problems with one of my avionics
and was feeling around behind the panel and felt that the connection between
the Fast-On and the fuse block for that instrument was hot to the touch. I
wiggled it and the problem immediately went away. However, I cut off the Fast-On
and crimped on a new one. I had about 350 hours on the airplane at that
point. No problems since.
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339483#339483
Message 12
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| Subject: | RE: lithium batteries |
I asked a similar question a few months back on the Lancair Mailing List and
was insulted for suggesting LiFePO4 batteries even be considered for
experimental aircraft use. At the time I was not aware of anyone selling
them specifically for aircraft, so that's an interesting new development.
Below, I share the tactful wisdom of Mr. Regan for the benefit of all.
Michael
"Michael writes: <<I never claimed to be an expert>>
Then perhaps you would be wise to take the council of someone who IS
experienced.
<<The SECOND link in my post is a thread with several hundred posts on
designing, building, and testing cells. Have any of the naysayers read the
thread, in depth, or done similar research? >>>
Wow. Reading the anecdotal results of anonymous hobbyists is not "research",
it is entertainment (for some). Reading about or doing actual experiments
with the appropriate equipment and collecting reliable and repeatable data
is research. My income depends on doing quality R&D so I appreciate the
danger of searching the internet for data that supports your position and
then taking that as evidence you are right. You can find supporting
information for ANY position on the internet.
<<< I also have read <snip> that deep discharging, such as Hamid had done,
is different than the minimal discharge we would expect from an engine
start. The small discharge contributes to less need to balance the cells.
Quite different from the total-loss system in an RC or solar-powered
environment.>>>
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
The Wave Glider had a 10 -30 day (depending on payload power) "no sun"
duration so it was a mixed cycle, not deep discharge.
Engine start is not a minimal discharge event. A 300 amp load for 30 seconds
represents about a third of the available energy at those rates from a
typical 20 AH battery. (careful, I set a trap here)
Cell imbalance is a function of the number of charge / discharge cycles, the
depth of discharge / charge, the rate of discharge / charge, the
temperature, and cell initial "matching". If you start with matched and
balanced cells it will take longer to require balancing. Rate is one of the
more important factors because it also effects temperature due to I^2R
losses. Double the current and you get four times the heat.
<<<I'm an experimenter. I can't just sit on the sidelines and wait for
"someone else" to do the research, testing and development, then jump on the
bandwagon. That's why I'm building an experimental aircraft. I thought
this forum would be a good place to discuss development and testing of new
systems rather than quickly declare it "too risky" for intelligent
discussion.>>>>
I am all for experimentation, just not at 10,000 feet with peoples lives at
stake. I have been a contributor on this list since the beginning and I have
assisted the NTSB with several accident investigations where people died
because the pilot ignored fact in favor of their own "opinion". Flying is
serious business. Lithium batteries are sensitive to mishandling. Neither
tolerates ignorance or arrogance well.
Lithium batteries can and have been used in aerospace applications
successfully but it requires a careful, detailed and intelligent design to
mitigate the risks to an acceptable level. The risk levels that can be
tolerated for an EV motorcycle or car are significantly higher than for a
manned aircraft.
The word "Experimental" in Experimental Aircraft is not a directive to take
foolish risks. It does mean that you and you ALONE, as a pilot and builder,
are responsible for operating AND building an aircraft that is SAFE.
If I am not "intelligent" for pointing this out, so be it.
Regards
Brent Regan"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan de
Jong
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium batteries
--> <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
This has been discussed two months ago: see archives "Shorai".
I don't think I could add anything.
Jan de Jong
Message 13
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| Subject: | Bad fast-on connection? |
At 12:03 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
>
>Would a conductive paste applied to the spade before attaching the faston
>help to keep the joint free of all things that facilitate corrosion? Would
>such a paste handle the heat of the joint?
It doesn't need to be conductive. See articles on the
characteristics of gas-tight terminations. Nor does
the "additive" need to be high temperature. The ideal
joint by definition has very low resistance . . . i.e.
very low loss, very low temperature rise.
If the joints in question were flat-surface to flat-surface,
some sort of moisture exclusion is sometimes helpful.
Any sort of durable grease fills the voids in the joint
and excludes moisture. In the case of fast-ons, the
'magic' happens at a very high pressure connection
between the tab and the terminal. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/faston3.pdf
Failures in these joints tend to be related to
loss of force that compromises make-up pressure.
Some moisture excluding grease wouldn't hurt
anything . . . but I'm not visualizing how it
would help. Loss of make up force is critical.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: B&C fast-ons |
At 06:21 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
><pinetownd@volcano.net>
>
>I had the same problem with a Fast-On connector attached to a B&C
>fuse block. The Fast-On was an AMP PIDG model. I was having
>problems with one of my avionics and was feeling around behind the
>panel and felt that the connection between the Fast-On and the fuse
>block for that instrument was hot to the touch. I wiggled it and
>the problem immediately went away. However, I cut off the Fast-On
>and crimped on a new one. I had about 350 hours on the airplane at
>that point. No problems since.
This anecdote re-enforces the idea posited in my
earlier post. The 'magic' of a fast-on terminal all
happens at the two grooves plowed into the male tab
by the artfully designed and properly applied female
terminal.
One should be cognizant of the force vectors when
installing these terminals. Avoid applying force
perpendicular to the mating tab. If 'wiggles' are
useful, make them in the plane of the tab. Ideally,
the terminals should be pushed straight on.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring |
Hey Chris,
I was going to use the relays and that part of the wiring. My issue is
with the switch wiring. It is too short. I could spice in some length but
thought I might as well solder at the switches and into their connector.
You are probably right about the high setting. It's all I use in my car. I
was just trying to figure the amperage going through the switch wiring.
Should be negligible, since it just runs a relay.
Thoughts?
Michael Wynn
In a message dated 5/10/2011 3:10:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
rv8iator@gmail.com writes:
Hello Michael,
The last RV-8 I built had the sports imports seat heaters. Each set (seat
and back) require approx 100 watts. about 7 amps at 14v. You can
re-wire but I recommend using their relay although any DPDT relay with contacts
rated for at least 7 amps and a 14 volt continuous duty coil. You can
substitute and SPDT switch rated for 7 amps or more for the high/low. Actually
all you will use is Hi. The heaters work well but a warm flight suit is
still required if you spend any time in cold air (below -10 C).
Chris Stone
Newberg OR
RV-8 No 2
I am wiring up the seat heaters in my RV 8. I bought the option from
Classic Aero when they made the seats. The heaters are carbon fiber and come
from sports imports:
_http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html_
(http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html)
They are set up with a switch that operates a solid state relay of some
sort. The factory supplied switch wiring does not work at all with where I
need to put the switches so I was going to rewire them. I am assuming that
the relays don't draw a lot of current. My question is what size wire to
use. B&C has a nice four wire cable in 22 gauge. For a three foot run,
that should be fine as long as we are talking a couple of amps or less.
Has anyone measured the current draw for the switches in these seat
heaters? Is there a simple way for me to do that? Maybe take a two ohm
resistor, turn on the heater and measure the voltage drop across the resistor?
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV 8 Wiring
San Ramon, CA
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: lithium batteries |
At 01:13 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
>I would like to hear your Bob's or other folks comments about
>aviation use of the lithium batteries supplied here:
>
>http://www.lithiumaviationbattery.com/index.html
>
>they seem to offer signficant weight reduction
Yes, among other things. Quoting from the website:
If your reading this; you already know that the primitive lead acid
battery is going the way of the horse and buggy.
. . . yeah . . . sort of.
I can tell the List that there are a whole lot of folks
intently interested in exploring alternatives to the
legacy lead-acid battery technologies for a host
of applications, not the least of which are aircraft.
I've been indirectly and directly involved in battery
studies for general aviation for over 10 years . . .
and I can tell you nobody at any of my former places
of employment are looking to go lithium as the standard
battery product . . . yet.
A variety of new-wave technologies have come and gone.
Some proved useful in certain specialty applications
such as portable power for computers, cameras, phones,
etc. Most of these applications did not demand hi cranking
currents to start engines nor were they expected to
work at cold temperatures. Further, in small energy
demand applications, the extra electronics needed to
optimize battery performance was not a big cost of
ownership burden. Looking at the website we see the
following data table:
BATTERY SIZING - 12V & 24V
Based on your starter cranking current.
Rectangular Dimensions
Ah Wt./lb CCA w heat shrink cover $$ (12V )
2p, 4.6 1.7 200 4.5 x 2.2 x 3.3 200
3p, 7.0 2.3 300 4.5 x 3.5 x 3.3 300
4p, 9.2 3.0 400 4.5 x 4.8 x 3.3 400
5p, 11.5 3.5 500 4.5 x 6.0 x 3.3 500
6p, 13.8 4.0 600 4.5 x 7.2 x 3.3 600
7p, 16.1 4.5 700 4.5 x 8.4 x 3.3 700
I see no mention of battery selection criteria based
on a load analysis for the endurance mode of operation.
Keep in mind that there have been several "gee-whiz" battery
offerings in the past that would crank an engine. I think
some products featuring 2 a.h. jelly-roll NiCd technology
about the size of a c-cell.
The product even made it into the over the counter market in
the form of a "Start Stick" sold by Sears as I recall.
Cranking the engine is a concern only for the first
few seconds of the day's operations. How about the rest
of the time?
A minimum battery that would crank your Lycoming might
weigh in at 3 pounds and cap check at 9.2 a.h., but how
long would that battery run your e-bus? Okay, you've got
Z13/8 and the endurance loads are not an issue. How many
18 a.h. SLVA batteries can you buy for $400? Let's say
5 batteries. In a situation where the e-bus is supported
by a second alternator, then you might get 2-3 years
service life out of an SVLA. Let's say 2 years x 5 batteries
gives you 10 years. The cost of ownership for 5 batteries
is equal to that of 1 Lithium battery that has a warranty
of 5 years and is a somewhat unknown player in the market
when 10 years is the target service life.
Okay, it's 15 pounds lighter than the SLVA. That's 2.5
more gallons of fuel. Are you going to fit your airplane
with larger tanks? Probably not. Okay, no help on fuel.
Are you going to miss that 15 pound reduction in baggage
limits? Hmmm . . . at 10 gph you'll be back under gross
limits in 15 minutes after takeoff . . . doesn't seem
like much of a worry there either.
Suppose you don't have the second alternator and you
really want 12+ a.h. of endurance bus support for
alternator-out ops. Now we're talking about a $600-
$700 battery. That will buy a LOT of SLVA capability.
How about service life? At least with the SLVA, you're
starting with a clean slate every two years. You're
COMMITTED to living with the lithium product for a
whole lot longer than that.
The point is that until one has considered ALL the
data points that drive a battery selection decision,
getting sucked down the whirlpool of lighter, stronger,
sexier, etc. etc. may keep you from making good decisions
that tend to ditch proven technologies with no surprises
and very predictable cost of ownership numbers.
If you're selecting a battery for Voyager, it took about
5 pounds of fuel to carry 1 pound of airplane around the
world. So 15 pounds of battery would translate to 75 pounds
of fuel. Uncle Bert MIGHT have been interested in the
Lithium products back then. I suspect that once the RV
builder has considered issues of weight, endurance mode
support, cost of ownership over the LIFETIME of the
airplane, and cold weather ops . . . that stoggy ol'
SVLA still has a few things going for it.
Yes, these are experimental airplanes. The owners of
Emacs!
are out to show the world a 'better mousetrap' and I do
wish them well. But if I were flying an RV, I'd do it to
have fun while minimizing cost of ownership and meeting
specific design goals. Please make sure ALL of your goals
are identified, prioritized and considered in your battery
selection decisions.
It may well be that 10 years from now, everybody will
be scoffing at the occasional SLVA hanger-on. I hope
that the technology and market positions will have matured
sufficiently to make that a reality. But that's not today
folks.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring |
At 04:54 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I am wiring up the seat heaters in my RV 8. I bought the option
>from Classic Aero when they made the seats. The heaters are carbon
>fiber and come from sports imports:
>
><http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html>http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html
>
>They are set up with a switch that operates a solid state relay of
>some sort. The factory supplied switch wiring does not work at all
>with where I need to put the switches so I was going to rewire
>them. I am assuming that the relays don't draw a lot of
>current. My question is what size wire to use. B&C has a nice four
>wire cable in 22 gauge. For a three foot run, that should be fine
>as long as we are talking a couple of amps or less.
>
>Has anyone measured the current draw for the switches in these seat
>heaters? Is there a simple way for me to do that? Maybe take a two
>ohm resistor, turn on the heater and measure the voltage drop across
>the resistor?
How big is the switch wiring? You should be able
to extend the wires with the same gage of wire
with no concerns for actual current draw.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RE: lithium batteries |
At 06:53 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
><mike@aeromotogroup.com>
>
>I asked a similar question a few months back on the Lancair Mailing List and
>was insulted for suggesting LiFePO4 batteries even be considered for
>experimental aircraft use. At the time I was not aware of anyone selling
>them specifically for aircraft, so that's an interesting new development.
>
>Below, I share the tactful wisdom of Mr. Regan for the benefit of all.
>
>Michael
Brent's misgivings about lithium aboard airplanes are
well founded. There IS a TSO document in place for
FAA approval of lithium batteries. It's based in part
on performance we've come to know and love from lead-acid
technologies. At the same time, it acknowledges
elevated risks for what I've suggested is akin to
teaching your Lycoming to burn nitroglycerine. The
energy content is spectacular but the firewalls needed
to keep that dragon caged are significant.
We didn't have battery fires until the wet Ni-Cad
came along. Those dragons proved meddlesome too but
were eventually brought to heel. Integration of
lithium into the every day lives of the consumer-citizen
will be an even greater challenge.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Bad fast-on connection? |
I know fast-on connectors are preferred here but I have heard that Cessna tested
and rejected the use of them due to some kind of problems. They might have been
problems such as you are having. Perhaps, someone here can shed light on the
reasons for Cessna's rejection. I didn't find it in the AeroElectric Connection
Book. My avionics advisor is questioning me using them because that isn't
the way it is done at his shop.
Eric
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339503#339503
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: B&C fast-ons |
At 05:25 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
>
>Talking about Fast-ons, 1/4" female fast-ons seem easy to find, but
>I can't seem to locate male ones.
How would you like to use them? By convention,
accessories are fitted with tabs, wires are fitted
with females. Tabs for wires are rare.
Digikey shows a blue-PIDG .250" tab at:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=66024-6-ND
and a red-PIDG .250" tab at:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=66023-2-ND
but they're not cheap.
If you're wanting a single-wire, serviceable splice, consider the
knife-splice. MUCH preferred for splicing.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=A1068-ND
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=A27474-ND
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: B&C fast-ons |
I've been making temporary end-to-end connections as I do wiring mods behind the
panel.
After testing and I'm sure the mod is good, I go back and hard crimp.
Question re knife splices....(I bought some the other day with the intention of
trying them).
Are they intended for end-to-end splices like I need, in other words knife-splice
to knife splice?
Thanks
Neil
On May 10, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> At 05:25 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
>>
>> Talking about Fast-ons, 1/4" female fast-ons seem easy to find, but I can't
seem to locate male ones.
>
> How would you like to use them? By convention,
> accessories are fitted with tabs, wires are fitted
> with females. Tabs for wires are rare.
>
> Digikey shows a blue-PIDG .250" tab at:
>
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=66024-6-ND
>
> and a red-PIDG .250" tab at:
>
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=66023-2-ND
>
> but they're not cheap.
>
> If you're wanting a single-wire, serviceable splice, consider the
> knife-splice. MUCH preferred for splicing.
>
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=A1068-ND
>
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=A27474-ND
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Neil Clayton
harvey4@earthlink.net
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Bad fast-on connection? |
At 09:09 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
>
>I know fast-on connectors are preferred here but I have heard that
>Cessna tested and rejected the use of them due to some kind of
>problems. They might have been problems such as you are having.
>Perhaps, someone here can shed light on the reasons for Cessna's
>rejection. I didn't find it in the AeroElectric Connection Book. My
>avionics advisor is questioning me using them because that isn't the
>way it is done at his shop.
I wouldn't say they are "preferred" . . . if one has
the budget and/or the desire to do anything else with
legacy hardware, the risks are low.
Actually, Cessna put them in first. It was during the
transition from round-hole toggle and push-pull switches
to the rectangular-hole rocker switches that the entire
single-engine line went to .250" fast-ons on the rear
of the switches.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Progressive-Xfr_Split-Rocker_Switches.pdf
There have been plenty field-failures associated with
this switch/terminal combination. I've investigated some.
Most involved loss of connection integrity in the riveted
joints for the switches and/or the low pressure connection
at the switch's center pivot. Only a few were attributable
to loss of fast-on-to-tab connectivity.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Carling_Cutaway.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Carling_Failures/
So in fact, there were tens of thousands of Cessna S.E.
aircraft per year produced for a goodly number of years
that featured this technology.
Equal or better than Honeywell-Microswitch and ring
terminals . . . or better yet, soldered posts? Depends
on what you call "better".
Failure rates will be higher with the less robust product
(and for different reasons) but we're designing and building
failure tolerant airplanes. Further, we expect failure rates
to be no worse than that experienced by the single engine fleet
at Cessna.
I'm aware of no ADs to swap out all the rockers in the
venerable ol' Pawnee Plant airplanes. But there IS an
AD against the equally venerable W31 switch/breaker in
Bonanzas and Barons that generates a bit of smoke from
time to time on a lot fewer airplanes.
So hanging my hat on demonstrable experience gleaned over
decades of field history suggests that the fast-on terminal
system is of good value and presents no extra-ordinary risks.
But if you prefer something else . . . no problem.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: B&C fast-ons |
At 09:41 PM 5/10/2011, you wrote:
>
>I've been making temporary end-to-end connections as I do wiring
>mods behind the panel.
>After testing and I'm sure the mod is good, I go back and hard crimp.
>
>Question re knife splices....(I bought some the other day with the
>intention of trying them).
>Are they intended for end-to-end splices like I need, in other words
>knife-splice to knife splice?
Sure. We used buckets full of them at Cessna for terminating
pigtails on certain accessories fitted with flying leads. A
couple of knife splices covered with some plastic sleeve
held with a tie-wrap was standard production line procedure.
You can leave them in place suitably insulated . . . or if
you're wanting a tidier looking bundle, you can get a very
slim wire-to-wire splice like this.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Solder_Lap_Splicing/Solder_Lap_Splices.html
But there's no compelling technical reason to cut out knife
splices and replace with PIDG butt splices.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring |
Michael,
The pre-wired switch that is part of the heater package switches between
'hi' and 'low' and off. The relay switches the second heater element only.
When hi is selected it energizes the relay coil to switch current to both
the 'low' and 'hi' elements. The switch contacts only see the relatively
low current of the low setting and the lower current of the relay coil. You
can use a switch style CB to provide a means of disconnecting in the event
of a malfunction, or a fuse and SPST switch.
Chris
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 4:46 PM, <MLWynn@aol.com> wrote:
> Hey Chris,
>
> I was going to use the relays and that part of the wiring. My issue is
> with the switch wiring. It is too short. I could spice in some length but
> thought I might as well solder at the switches and into their connector.
> You are probably right about the high setting. It's all I use in my car. I
> was just trying to figure the amperage going through the switch wiring.
> Should be negligible, since it just runs a relay.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Michael Wynn
>
> In a message dated 5/10/2011 3:10:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> rv8iator@gmail.com writes:
>
> Hello Michael,
>
> The last RV-8 I built had the sports imports seat heaters. Each set (seat
> and back) require approx 100 watts. about 7 amps at 14v. You can re-wire
> but I recommend using their relay although any DPDT relay with contacts
> rated for at least 7 amps and a 14 volt continuous duty coil. You can
> substitute and SPDT switch rated for 7 amps or more for the high/low.
> Actually all you will use is Hi. The heaters work well but a warm flight
> suit is still required if you spend any time in cold air (below -10 C).
>
> Chris Stone
> Newberg OR
> RV-8 No 2
>
>>
>> I am wiring up the seat heaters in my RV 8. I bought the option from
>> Classic Aero when they made the seats. The heaters are carbon fiber and
>> come from sports imports:
>>
>> http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html
>>
>> They are set up with a switch that operates a solid state relay of some
>> sort. The factory supplied switch wiring does not work at all with where I
>> need to put the switches so I was going to rewire them. I am assuming that
>> the relays don't draw a lot of current. My question is what size wire to
>> use. B&C has a nice four wire cable in 22 gauge. For a three foot run,
>> that should be fine as long as we are talking a couple of amps or less.
>>
>> Has anyone measured the current draw for the switches in these seat
>> heaters? Is there a simple way for me to do that? Maybe take a two ohm
>> resistor, turn on the heater and measure the voltage drop across the
>> resistor?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Michael Wynn
>> RV 8 Wiring
>> San Ramon, CA
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
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