AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 05/16/11


Total Messages Posted: 28



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:46 AM - Re: Re: Key Ignition Switch (Stuart Hutchison)
     2. 04:52 AM - GPS Update (Jerald Folkerts)
     3. 05:49 AM - Re: Re: Key Ignition Switch (George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ)
     4. 07:05 AM - Beech Starship (Eric M. Jones)
     5. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring (rv8iator@gmail.com)
     6. 08:17 AM - Re: Key Ignition Switch (plevyakh)
     7. 08:22 AM - How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (plevyakh)
     8. 08:29 AM - Re: Aircraft security, was Key Ignition Switch (glen matejcek)
     9. 08:37 AM - Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (wschertz@comcast.net)
    10. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: Key Ignition Switch (David Lloyd)
    11. 08:52 AM - Re: Beech Starship (JOHN TIPTON)
    12. 09:13 AM - Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (Jay Hyde)
    13. 09:26 AM - Re: Beech Starship ()
    14. 09:56 AM - Re: Beech Starship (Matt Prather)
    15. 10:42 AM - Re: Beech Starship (Eric M. Jones)
    16. 10:50 AM - Re: Beech Starship (Stein Bruch)
    17. 11:09 AM - Re: Beech Starship ()
    18. 11:09 AM - Re: Unsteelable Airplane (was Key Ignition Switch) (Eric M. Jones)
    19. 11:22 AM - Re: Beech Starship (Eric M. Jones)
    20. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: Key Ignition Switch (thomas sargent)
    21. 12:15 PM - Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    22. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Beech Starship (wschertz@comcast.net)
    23. 03:14 PM - Re: Re: Key Ignition Switch (Carlos Trigo)
    24. 04:41 PM - Re: Re: Beech Starship (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    25. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Key Ignition Switch (Noel Loveys)
    26. 07:10 PM - Re: Beech Starship (Noel Loveys)
    27. 07:27 PM - Re: Re: Beech Starship (Noel Loveys)
    28. 08:47 PM - Re: Re: Beech Starship (Richard Girard)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:46:16 AM PST US
    From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
    Subject: Re: Key Ignition Switch
    G'day Guys, Physical security locks are mandatory in Australia. I plan to have a canopy lock, but for added security, I'm installing one of Bob Newman's Smart Start modules (www.tcwtech.com). It uses a momentary switch to arm the start circuit for 1 minute - of course you can locate the momentary switch anywhwere you like so that it's counter-intuitive to find. I would recommend the optional air switch to arm the start at flying speeds, and there's also an option to connect the circuit to an interconnect switch elsewhere, so that start is disabled until other pre-conditions are met (for example closing the canopy). Cheers, Stu F1 Rocket VH-FLY <http://www.mykitlog.com/RockFLY> http://www.mykitlog.com/RockFLY <about:www.teamrocketaircraft.com> www.teamrocketaircraft.com _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 4:02 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Key Ignition Switch > What do you think would be the cheapest YET most effective? > TIA for your thoughts. > Howard Howard, Here is what I would do, if I was worried about losing an airplane or airplane parts; (cost...about $.50, if that!) ATTENTION!!! If you can read this message, you have already activated a motion detector & video recorder, and YOU ARE BEING TAPED!! IF YOU ARE STILL IN THIS VICINITY WITHIN 3 MINUTES, THE POLICE WILL BE NOTIFIED VIA A MODEM. YOU HAVE 2 1/2 MINUTES LEFT BEFORE THE POLICE ARE CALLED. GOOD BYE!! You also have a small electronic box sitting inside the plane, with a flashing RED LED. The box is only visible if you are standing near the plane, even though it blinks 24/7....they think they just set it off and are being recorded!! Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is going to do a thing wrong when they think they are on camera!! Mike Welch


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:52:02 AM PST US
    From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
    Subject: GPS Update
    I saw this in my morning AF Association update: "Empirical Backs Up the Analytical: Data from testing actual hardware appear to confirm initial concerns <http://r.listpilot.net/c/afa/68u70rc/2nu56> that a new 4G wireless broadband network in the United States would interfere with the Global Positioning Satellite signal, said Gen. William Shelton, head of Air Force Space Command. "Although the data [are] still being analyzed, I would tell you that the empirical data [appear] to be consistent with the analytical data," Shelton told the Senate Armed Services Committee's strategic forces panel last week. Accordingly, he continued, "we have concerns" for civil, commercial, and military applications involving GPS. LightSquared, a telecommunications company headquartered in Reston, Va., seeks Federal Communication Commission approval to establish the broadband network, which would feature thousands of cell phone towers and space-based augmentation. Those towers could disrupt the GPS signal, and testing of LightSquared equipment at Kirtland AFB, N.M., with various GPS receivers seems to confirm that, said Shelton during the May 11 hearing." Jerry Folkerts SR2500 #093


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:49:22 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Key Ignition Switch
    From: "George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ" <Neal.George@hurlburt.af.mil>
    Howard - If a thief wants your airplane or something in it, he's going to take it. Short of armed and catching him in the act, there's precious little you can do to stop it. If you make it difficult, he'll just break stuff to get to what he wants. Some will do additional damage out of pure meanness. If somebody wants my stuff bad enough to steal it, I'd just as soon they didn't tear up the airplane in the process. Good insurance at honest values is the answer to this one. A canopy cover will discourage the ramp-walking snooper. Some airports require a prop lock, and it will show the insurance company and HAS/TSA/DEA that you tried to keep the airplane on the ground. Neal -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of plevyakh Folks, I'd like to get some ideas from the forum on how best to secure my airplane. My concern is both with stealing of the entire plane....to breaking in and stealing the avionics.


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:05:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Beech Starship
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    (Do Not Archive) There are those who believe that putting propellers behind airfoils, instead of in the nose where God intended them to be, is a terrible idea. Rutan is quoted as saying that he only came to this realization very late in his designing life. I once saw a Starship, or rather I heard the noisiest damned aircraft I had ever heard. I looked up, put my fingers in my ears, and saw the majestically beautiful Starship thousands of feet above....making a truly ugly noise that continued long after the Starship was out of sight. Bob, funny story on the deicer. I recently reviewed a design project where 40 leds at 75 volts in series-parallel had to be dimmed. The failed and expensive PWM controller and elaborate glitch filter was a mean mess o' parts. I specified an off-the-shelf 1W-WW pot and one resistor to do the whole job. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340003#340003


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:41:04 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Modifying Seat Heater Wiring
    From: rv8iator@gmail.com
    Eric... The heater is laminated between the upholstery covering (leather, vinyl etc.) and the foam cushion thus is insulated by the foam. Reflective material could be used between the cushion and heater pad to reflect some additional IR. The problem may be finding a reflective material that won't crush, wrinkle, split and flake the reflective surface over repeated use. In the past I have used aluminized mylar for IR protection but it's delicate. Ideas? chris stone RV-8 > I haven't seen the seat heaters, but a question came to me: > Is the back side of the seat heater insulated and reflective? If not, why > not? It would use half the power. > Eh? > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:17:12 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Key Ignition Switch
    From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak@mac.com>
    Folks, Thanks for all the great inputs. I'm going to keep it simple for now as you suggest and include the following: 1) Propeller chain lock 2) Throttle lock 3) Canopy cover and or cloth drape over the panel to keep the avionics hidden. I did find a nice lightweight high DB alarm that would trip when the door is opened. It's a beam sensor device. This might be added as a winter project down the road. Howard -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak@mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340005#340005


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:22:42 AM PST US
    Subject: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes?
    From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak@mac.com>
    I'm working on my instrument panel and looking at my switch layout and was wondering what others have done to hide the .125" anti-rotation keyway washer holes on a standard S700 Carling switch? I would like to avoid having to make up a separate face plate over top of my aluminum switch plate. Does one NOT drill the keyway hole all the way thru the panel insert? Does one eliminate the keyway hole and just use loctite on the threads? Can I just fill the keyway hole with something and apply the paint and then switch label overtop? How do the professional panel shops deal with this? TIA, Howard -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak@mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340007#340007


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:29:29 AM PST US
    From: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
    Subject: RE: Aircraft security, was Key Ignition Switch
    Hi All- A couple thoughts on security: I can't speak to this definitively, but I doubt there is a huge market for stolen homebuilts. They stand out on the 'secondary' market much more than a spam can, and generally don't carry the load a drug runner might prefer. Consequently, I suspect aircraft such as a Glastar, or my RV, aren't likely to ever be a theft target. For peace of mind sake, though, something like a prop lock and chain is probably quite effective. Although they aren't all that difficult to overcome by those who know how to do it, it does make it harder and more dangerous to mess with that plane than the one sitting right next to it. The potential problem with anti-theft devices in the cabin is the damage a crook might do in the process of breaking in, only to discover he can't take the plane. As I understand it, by far and away the biggest theft hazard comes from bad guys using keys to gain entry to plane 'A', swiping the radios, installing them in plane 'B', and then selling plane 'B's radios. To me, this only increases the attractiveness of face mounted radios. They're not very common and therefore have a limited resale market, and they're a whole lot more difficult / impractical to swipe. The argument could be made to leave the plane (or your car) unlocked to prevent unauthorized entry damage, and just not leave any loose valuables behind. In my case, I also have a non-intuitive switch configuration required for start. It's not complex, it doesn't add any potential points of failure once the engine is running, but I've yet to have any pilot friends figure it out. It does not include a key switch. Among other things, as I recall it, there are only a dozen or so keys in all of GA. Someone who perpetrates these evils in all likelihood already has a key to the switch you have yet to buy... FWIW- Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.ne


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:37:36 AM PST US
    From: wschertz@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes?
    One way is to take a piece of .032 aluminum strip that spans several switch es, drill the hole for the strip, and the keyway hole, and install it BEHIN D the panel with the lock tab facing the switch panel. Invisible and fairly easy. Bill Schertz ----- Original Message ----- From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak@mac.com> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 10:19:53 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? I'm working on my instrument panel and looking at my switch layout and was wondering what others have done to hide the .125" anti-rotation keyway wash er holes on a standard S700 Carling switch? I would like to avoid having to make up a separate face plate over top of m y aluminum switch plate. Does one NOT drill the keyway hole all the way thru the panel insert? Does one eliminate the keyway hole and just use loctite on the threads? Can I just fill the keyway hole with something and apply the paint and then switch label overtop? How do the professional panel shops deal with this? TIA, Howard -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak@mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340007#340007 =========== - =========== MS - =========== e - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin. ===========


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:51:51 AM PST US
    From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Key Ignition Switch
    >From my brief view of the "thievery" issue, I think stolen airplanes are the minor issue. Thefts from the "panel" are the primary target of the traveling hit and run crowd. The last hit at our airport was strictly for new, popular model avionics....that would eventually show up on eBay, Craig's List, etc. We are also located close to a freeway...not good as the thieves want a quick exit after hitting an airport. D ----- Original Message ----- From: "George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ" <Neal.George@hurlburt.af.mil> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 5:46 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Key Ignition Switch > <Neal.George@hurlburt.af.mil> > > Howard - > > If a thief wants your airplane or something in it, he's going to take it. > Short of armed and catching him in the act, there's precious little you > can do to stop it. If you make it difficult, he'll just break stuff to > get to what he wants. Some will do additional damage out of pure > meanness. > > If somebody wants my stuff bad enough to steal it, I'd just as soon they > didn't tear up the airplane in the process. Good insurance at honest > values is the answer to this one. > > A canopy cover will discourage the ramp-walking snooper. Some airports > require a prop lock, and it will show the insurance company and > HAS/TSA/DEA that you tried to keep the airplane on the ground. > > Neal > > -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of plevyakh > > Folks, > I'd like to get some ideas from the forum on how best to secure my > airplane. > My concern is both with stealing of the entire plane....to breaking in and > stealing the avionics. > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:52:57 AM PST US
    From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
    Subject: Re: Beech Starship
    If God intended them to be at the front why did he call them 'propellers' !!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:01 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > <emjones@charter.net> > > (Do Not Archive) > > There are those who believe that putting propellers behind airfoils, > instead of in the nose where God intended them to be, is a terrible idea. > Rutan is quoted as saying that he only came to this realization very late > in his designing life. > > I once saw a Starship, or rather I heard the noisiest damned aircraft I > had ever heard. I looked up, put my fingers in my ears, and saw the > majestically beautiful Starship thousands of feet above....making a truly > ugly noise that continued long after the Starship was out of sight. > > Bob, funny story on the deicer. I recently reviewed a design project where > 40 leds at 75 volts in series-parallel had to be dimmed. The failed and > expensive PWM controller and elaborate glitch filter was a mean mess o' > parts. I specified an off-the-shelf 1W-WW pot and one resistor to do the > whole job. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340003#340003 > > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:13:23 AM PST US
    From: "Jay Hyde" <jay@horriblehyde.com>
    Subject: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes?
    I=99ve made a couple of panels now and use 2mm thick aluminium plate for the panel and drill from behind only 1mm deep, which provides plenty of grip for the tab. Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wschertz@comcast.net Sent: 16 May 2011 05:34 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? One way is to take a piece of .032 aluminum strip that spans several switches, drill the hole for the strip, and the keyway hole, and install it BEHIND the panel with the lock tab facing the switch panel. Invisible and fairly easy. Bill Schertz ----- Original Message ----- From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak@mac.com> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 10:19:53 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? I'm working on my instrument panel and looking at my switch layout and was wondering what others have done to hide the .125" anti-rotation keyway washer holes on a standard S700 Carling switch? I would like to avoid having to make up a separate face plate over top of my aluminum switch plate. Does one NOT drill the keyway hole all the way thru the panel insert? Does one eliminate the keyway hole and just use loctite on the threads? Can I just fill the keyway hole with something and apply the paint and then switch label overtop? How do the professional panel shops deal with this? TIA, Howard -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak@mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340007#340007 = --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List _= - List Contribution Web Site ; &nb=====================


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:26:51 AM PST US
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    Subject: Beech Starship
    Because we are lazy people and after hundreds of years of tinkering with boats and such we failed to come up with a better name. In any event, propulsion really doesn't care from which end it propels. Burt's analogy comes from the designer's perspective. Perhaps efficiency and ease of installation. There have been many automotive designs with mid and rear engines - none of them terribly successful. Porsche is an exception, but the cost of making the engineering work is not very practical for the average buyer. Propeller - a device having a revolving hub with radiating blades, for propelling an airplane, ship, etc. Looks like the word was developed between 1770-1780. Not much flying back in those days. Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN TIPTON Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 11:50 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship If God intended them to be at the front why did he call them 'propellers' !!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:01 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > <emjones@charter.net> > > (Do Not Archive) > > There are those who believe that putting propellers behind airfoils, > instead of in the nose where God intended them to be, is a terrible idea. > Rutan is quoted as saying that he only came to this realization very late > in his designing life. > > I once saw a Starship, or rather I heard the noisiest damned aircraft I > had ever heard. I looked up, put my fingers in my ears, and saw the > majestically beautiful Starship thousands of feet above....making a truly > ugly noise that continued long after the Starship was out of sight. > > Bob, funny story on the deicer. I recently reviewed a design project where > 40 leds at 75 volts in series-parallel had to be dimmed. The failed and > expensive PWM controller and elaborate glitch filter was a mean mess o' > parts. I specified an off-the-shelf 1W-WW pot and one resistor to do the > whole job. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340003#340003 > > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:56:08 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Beech Starship
    From: Matt Prather <mapratherid@gmail.com>
    If pusher props are such a bad idea, why don't boats have them on the front? Why are airplanes different? (I have a Rutan Varieze). Matt- On May 16, 2011, at 10:22 AM, <longg@pjm.com> wrote: > > Because we are lazy people and after hundreds of years of tinkering with boats and such we failed to come up with a better name. In any event, propulsion really doesn't care from which end it propels. Burt's analogy comes from the designer's perspective. Perhaps efficiency and ease of installation. There have been many automotive designs with mid and rear engines - none of them terribly successful. Porsche is an exception, but the cost of making the engineering work is not very practical for the average buyer. > > Propeller - a device having a revolving hub with radiating blades, for propelling an airplane, ship, etc. > > Looks like the word was developed between 1770-1780. Not much flying back in those days. > > Do Not Archive > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN TIPTON > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 11:50 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > > > If God intended them to be at the front why did he call them 'propellers' > !!! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:01 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > > >> <emjones@charter.net> >> >> (Do Not Archive) >> >> There are those who believe that putting propellers behind airfoils, >> instead of in the nose where God intended them to be, is a terrible idea. >> Rutan is quoted as saying that he only came to this realization very late >> in his designing life. >> >> I once saw a Starship, or rather I heard the noisiest damned aircraft I >> had ever heard. I looked up, put my fingers in my ears, and saw the >> majestically beautiful Starship thousands of feet above....making a truly >> ugly noise that continued long after the Starship was out of sight. >> >> Bob, funny story on the deicer. I recently reviewed a design project where >> 40 leds at 75 volts in series-parallel had to be dimmed. The failed and >> expensive PWM controller and elaborate glitch filter was a mean mess o' >> parts. I specified an off-the-shelf 1W-WW pot and one resistor to do the >> whole job. >> >> -------- >> Eric M. Jones >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge, MA 01550 >> (508) 764-2072 >> emjones@charter.net >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340003#340003 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:42:51 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Beech Starship
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    (do not archive) Everything on an airplane got a French name while the Wright brothers were figuring out how to patent their way to fame and riches. The French called it an Air-Screw, or just a screw (helice) -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340027#340027


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:50:51 AM PST US
    From: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
    Subject: Beech Starship
    Surprisingly, most modern large ships in fact do use tractor props mounted on Azipods... Cheers, Stein Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 11:51 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship <mapratherid@gmail.com> If pusher props are such a bad idea, why don't boats have them on the front? Why are airplanes different? (I have a Rutan Varieze). Matt- On May 16, 2011, at 10:22 AM, <longg@pjm.com> wrote: > > Because we are lazy people and after hundreds of years of tinkering with boats and such we failed to come up with a better name. In any event, propulsion really doesn't care from which end it propels. Burt's analogy comes from the designer's perspective. Perhaps efficiency and ease of installation. There have been many automotive designs with mid and rear engines - none of them terribly successful. Porsche is an exception, but the cost of making the engineering work is not very practical for the average buyer. > > Propeller - a device having a revolving hub with radiating blades, for propelling an airplane, ship, etc. > > Looks like the word was developed between 1770-1780. Not much flying back in those days. > > Do Not Archive > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN TIPTON > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 11:50 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > <jmtipton@btopenworld.com> > > If God intended them to be at the front why did he call them 'propellers' > !!! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:01 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > > >> <emjones@charter.net> >> >> (Do Not Archive) >> >> There are those who believe that putting propellers behind airfoils, >> instead of in the nose where God intended them to be, is a terrible idea. >> Rutan is quoted as saying that he only came to this realization very late >> in his designing life. >> >> I once saw a Starship, or rather I heard the noisiest damned aircraft I >> had ever heard. I looked up, put my fingers in my ears, and saw the >> majestically beautiful Starship thousands of feet above....making a truly >> ugly noise that continued long after the Starship was out of sight. >> >> Bob, funny story on the deicer. I recently reviewed a design project where >> 40 leds at 75 volts in series-parallel had to be dimmed. The failed and >> expensive PWM controller and elaborate glitch filter was a mean mess o' >> parts. I specified an off-the-shelf 1W-WW pot and one resistor to do the >> whole job. >> >> -------- >> Eric M. Jones >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge, MA 01550 >> (508) 764-2072 >> emjones@charter.net >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340003#340003 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:09:19 AM PST US
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    Subject: Beech Starship
    I would say it is result of a boats tendency to constantly bounce out of the water - thus making the propeller far less effective when it's spinning in the air. Actually larger boats do utilize forward propellers for steering into docks when parking or making sharp turns. They work exceedingly well at slow speeds. I don't think anyone will argue the physics of rear driven aircraft. There are some practical compromises like balance which you overcome with the praying nose wheel. That's not to say forward driven airplanes don't suffer compromises. They certainly do. This is largely about marketing to the masses and what the public is willing to accept. If Cessna had put all of their engines in the back of the plane, we'll all think that was normal and would wonder why those other funny people stick them on the front. Do Not Archive Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 12:51 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship If pusher props are such a bad idea, why don't boats have them on the front? Why are airplanes different? (I have a Rutan Varieze). Matt- On May 16, 2011, at 10:22 AM, <longg@pjm.com> wrote: > > Because we are lazy people and after hundreds of years of tinkering with boats and such we failed to come up with a better name. In any event, propulsion really doesn't care from which end it propels. Burt's analogy comes from the designer's perspective. Perhaps efficiency and ease of installation. There have been many automotive designs with mid and rear engines - none of them terribly successful. Porsche is an exception, but the cost of making the engineering work is not very practical for the average buyer. > > Propeller - a device having a revolving hub with radiating blades, for propelling an airplane, ship, etc. > > Looks like the word was developed between 1770-1780. Not much flying back in those days. > > Do Not Archive > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN TIPTON > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 11:50 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > > > If God intended them to be at the front why did he call them 'propellers' > !!! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:01 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > > >> <emjones@charter.net> >> >> (Do Not Archive) >> >> There are those who believe that putting propellers behind airfoils, >> instead of in the nose where God intended them to be, is a terrible idea. >> Rutan is quoted as saying that he only came to this realization very late >> in his designing life. >> >> I once saw a Starship, or rather I heard the noisiest damned aircraft I >> had ever heard. I looked up, put my fingers in my ears, and saw the >> majestically beautiful Starship thousands of feet above....making a truly >> ugly noise that continued long after the Starship was out of sight. >> >> Bob, funny story on the deicer. I recently reviewed a design project where >> 40 leds at 75 volts in series-parallel had to be dimmed. The failed and >> expensive PWM controller and elaborate glitch filter was a mean mess o' >> parts. I specified an off-the-shelf 1W-WW pot and one resistor to do the >> whole job. >> >> -------- >> Eric M. Jones >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge, MA 01550 >> (508) 764-2072 >> emjones@charter.net >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340003#340003 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 11:09:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Unsteelable Airplane (was Key Ignition Switch)
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    Okay...here's a guy with a foolproof Tesla Force Field: http://tesladownunder.com/Tesladownunder's%20Car%20Theft%20Pevention%201000.jpg The function of a blinking led on the panel is nicely satisfied by LV Warning Annunciators. I sell one, many people do. My plan is to have NO visible door locks. The remotes auto-parts guys sell are very reliable. I haven't EVER used my Jeep door key. For internal security, I have a handle to pull, in emergencies that: Turns off the fuel, triggers the ELT, disconnects the battery, and perhaps several aother features. When the handle is removed, stealing the airplane would be very hard. I also want to have control handles (full of interlocks and electronics) that can be removed for security by Amphenol-Cannon connectors. We live in a world where a video of the thief is easy to capture, personal possessions can be tracked, and being a thief is a dicey way to make a living. See: http://dendritelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Hijacker-Injector-3841328.pdf -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340029#340029


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:22:32 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Beech Starship
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    > I don't think anyone will argue the physics of rear driven aircraft. There are some practical compromises like balance which you overcome with the praying nose wheel. That's not to say forward driven airplanes don't suffer compromises. They certainly do. This is largely about marketing to the masses and what the public is willing to accept. ...A propeller in undisturbed air, and an engine where cooling is easy is a recipe for good design. NO record-speed-holder airplane is rear driven. A propeller blade which has to cut through the aircrafts' wake makes for a noisy and inefficient prop. The prop in the rear is style. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340031#340031


    Message 20


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    Time: 11:40:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Key Ignition Switch
    From: thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com>
    I don't have an ignition switch in my 6A. I ran the line from the master switch to a banana jack and continued it on from another banana jack next to it. A 2 pronged banana plug (see photo attached) plugs into both of them. A wire across the screw terminals of the plug shorts the 2 prongs together. So, that shorting plug is my "ignition key". I have regular toggle switches for the master switch (a 3 position switch - off, battery, battery + alt) and two other separate toggles switches for the magneto and the electronic ignition. Simple and light. The 2 pronged banana plug can be bought at any radio shack or electronic parts store. With the plug removed the master switch is disabled. There are these 2 innocuous banana jacks in the panel which are unlabeled. I'm guessing most people looking at the panel wouldn't pay them any attention or guess what they do. My electrical system is otherwise Bob K's venerable Z-11. -- Tom Sargent


    Message 21


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    Time: 12:15:25 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes?
    At 11:19 AM 5/16/2011, you wrote: > >I'm working on my instrument panel and looking at my switch layout >and was wondering what others have done to hide the .125" >anti-rotation keyway washer holes on a standard S700 Carling switch? > >I would like to avoid having to make up a separate face plate over >top of my aluminum switch plate. Okay, then instead of making an overlay to take your switch placards and hide holes in the panel, make as switch underlay sheet to go BEHIND the panel and provide holes for the anti-rotation washers which are also on the back of the panel. >Does one NOT drill the keyway hole all the way thru If your panel is thick enough, you can drill 'divots' on the back side deep enough so that the hole has just reached the full diameter of the bit. Then take a second bit of the same size that you've converted to a 'spot facer' by grinding it flat. Use this to flatten the bottom of your tab hole. You may have to shorten the tab on the washer a bit. This plan is much more labor intensive. The underlayment sheet seems a faster and cleaner options. >Does one eliminate the keyway hole and just use loctite on the threads? Please don't. >Can I just fill the keyway hole with something and apply the paint >and then switch label overtop? Something like JB Weld could be used as a robust "body putty" . .. >How do the professional panel shops deal with this? I've always used and overlay placard . . . usually an engraved plastic produced by a sign and badge shop. Use it to cover thru-holes for anti-rotation washers installed on the back side of the panel. Bob . . .


    Message 22


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    Time: 12:17:44 PM PST US
    From: wschertz@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Beech Starship
    I believe "Pushy Galore" set all kinds of climb records Bill Scherz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> . ...A propeller in undisturbed air, and an engine where cooling is easy is a recipe for good design. NO record-speed-holder airplane is rear driven. A propeller blade which has to cut through the aircrafts' wake makes for a noisy and inefficient prop. The prop in the rear is style. -------- Eric M. Jones


    Message 23


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    Time: 03:14:28 PM PST US
    From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
    Subject: Re: Key Ignition Switch
    Tom So, the ideal thief for your airplane would be a guy who works for Radio Shack .... :-) just couldn't resist Carlos _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent Sent: segunda-feira, 16 de Maio de 2011 19:37 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Key Ignition Switch I don't have an ignition switch in my 6A. I ran the line from the master switch to a banana jack and continued it on from another banana jack next to it. A 2 pronged banana plug (see photo attached) plugs into both of them. A wire across the screw terminals of the plug shorts the 2 prongs together. So, that shorting plug is my "ignition key". I have regular toggle switches for the master switch (a 3 position switch - off, battery, battery + alt) and two other separate toggles switches for the magneto and the electronic ignition. Simple and light. The 2 pronged banana plug can be bought at any radio shack or electronic parts store. With the plug removed the master switch is disabled. There are these 2 innocuous banana jacks in the panel which are unlabeled. I'm guessing most people looking at the panel wouldn't pay them any attention or guess what they do. My electrical system is otherwise Bob K's venerable Z-11. -- Tom Sargent


    Message 24


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    Time: 04:41:20 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Beech Starship
    At 03:15 PM 5/16/2011, you wrote: >I believe "Pushy Galore" set all kinds of climb records and so did the P-180. To be sure, there are compromises in every final design decision. Getting one attractive feature is often at the expense of other features. But if the student is attentive to life's lessons, the next adventure will be more exciting than the past. A turbine powered Bonanza was seriously considered at one time. Project PD336. One was built and flown, I think a second one started. The last time I saw S/N 1 it was looking rather naked on a pallet of foam outside Burt's hangar in Mojave. Emacs! I think he arranged some kind of trade for the carcass . . . I believe he wanted the engine, prop and instruments. The airplane was a real performer . . . with lousy range. But we learned some things and it didn't go into production. This was the program that validated the crowbar ov protection idea from the certified aircraft perspective. It would be years before the first ones flew in B&C's LR series regulators . . . We learned a lot from the Starship too. After taking the write-off on the Starship, I'm told we made it all back as a supplier of custom composite parts. Nobody ever said useful education is inexpensive. Sometimes even the worst mistakes can be parlayed into useful follow-on ventures. Bob . . .


    Message 25


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    Time: 06:11:13 PM PST US
    From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
    Subject: Re: Key Ignition Switch
    Scrap the sign and just put the LED in with a label that says "Modem Active" The alternative is to actually install a camera, GPS and modem that's active 24/7... that way you can keep tabs on your plane any time you want. A GPS enabled phone left in the cargo compartment or mounted behind the battery may be all you need. Noel _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 4:02 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Key Ignition Switch > What do you think would be the cheapest YET most effective? > TIA for your thoughts. > Howard Howard, Here is what I would do, if I was worried about losing an airplane or airplane parts; (cost...about $.50, if that!) ATTENTION!!! If you can read this message, you have already activated a motion detector & video recorder, and YOU ARE BEING TAPED!! IF YOU ARE STILL IN THIS VICINITY WITHIN 3 MINUTES, THE POLICE WILL BE NOTIFIED VIA A MODEM. YOU HAVE 2 1/2 MINUTES LEFT BEFORE THE POLICE ARE CALLED. GOOD BYE!! You also have a small electronic box sitting inside the plane, with a flashing RED LED. The box is only visible if you are standing near the plane, even though it blinks 24/7....they think they just set it off and are being recorded!! Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is going to do a thing wrong when they think they are on camera!! Mike Welch href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 26


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    Time: 07:10:02 PM PST US
    From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
    Subject: Beech Starship
    The short answer is the viscosity of the fluid in which they operate is different. The aspect of the blades is also different and if you look closely at the design of our board and isopod thrusters the prop is actually well faired to the gearbox. The shorter aspect ratio of water props allows them to operate without experiencing the disruptive vortices a pusher prop will always experience. There are many other factors which can cause a prop to be noisy. The shape of the blade the speed of rotation and certainly the speed of the plane itself. If you want to hear a really noisy prop just try listening to Russian counter turning props they used on Tu-95 (Bear) bombers. Even people in other planes can hear them coming! I wonder if some sort of a duct for the blades on the star ship would contain the sound. Ducting the exhaust outside the prop arc would also probably work. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: May 16, 2011 2:21 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship <mapratherid@gmail.com> If pusher props are such a bad idea, why don't boats have them on the front? Why are airplanes different? (I have a Rutan Varieze). Matt- On May 16, 2011, at 10:22 AM, <longg@pjm.com> wrote: > > Because we are lazy people and after hundreds of years of tinkering with boats and such we failed to come up with a better name. In any event, propulsion really doesn't care from which end it propels. Burt's analogy comes from the designer's perspective. Perhaps efficiency and ease of installation. There have been many automotive designs with mid and rear engines - none of them terribly successful. Porsche is an exception, but the cost of making the engineering work is not very practical for the average buyer. > > Propeller - a device having a revolving hub with radiating blades, for propelling an airplane, ship, etc. > > Looks like the word was developed between 1770-1780. Not much flying back in those days. > > Do Not Archive > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN TIPTON > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 11:50 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > <jmtipton@btopenworld.com> > > If God intended them to be at the front why did he call them 'propellers' > !!! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:01 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Beech Starship > > >> <emjones@charter.net> >> >> (Do Not Archive) >> >> There are those who believe that putting propellers behind airfoils, >> instead of in the nose where God intended them to be, is a terrible idea. >> Rutan is quoted as saying that he only came to this realization very late >> in his designing life. >> >> I once saw a Starship, or rather I heard the noisiest damned aircraft I >> had ever heard. I looked up, put my fingers in my ears, and saw the >> majestically beautiful Starship thousands of feet above....making a truly >> ugly noise that continued long after the Starship was out of sight. >> >> Bob, funny story on the deicer. I recently reviewed a design project where >> 40 leds at 75 volts in series-parallel had to be dimmed. The failed and >> expensive PWM controller and elaborate glitch filter was a mean mess o' >> parts. I specified an off-the-shelf 1W-WW pot and one resistor to do the >> whole job. >> >> -------- >> Eric M. Jones >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge, MA 01550 >> (508) 764-2072 >> emjones@charter.net >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340003#340003 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 27


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    Time: 07:27:11 PM PST US
    From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
    Subject: Re: Beech Starship
    I've flown in aircraft like the Lake LA-4 which has a tower mounted pusher prop and a modified Volmer Jensen VJ-22 Sportsman with a 125 Hp Lycoming tractor... also tower mounted. Guess which one was louder. That said I agree the tractor config is more efficient. The advantage of the props on the star ship is it allow much more torque to accelerate off short runways compared to straight turbines. It's too bad they didn't have the finances to work out the bugs. This is not the first time this has happened. The Tucker automobile was another car among cars with more innovations than Lipton has teabags but you will probably never even see one. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: May 16, 2011 3:48 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Beech Starship <emjones@charter.net> > I don't think anyone will argue the physics of rear driven aircraft. There are some practical compromises like balance which you overcome with the praying nose wheel. That's not to say forward driven airplanes don't suffer compromises. They certainly do. This is largely about marketing to the masses and what the public is willing to accept. ...A propeller in undisturbed air, and an engine where cooling is easy is a recipe for good design. NO record-speed-holder airplane is rear driven. A propeller blade which has to cut through the aircrafts' wake makes for a noisy and inefficient prop. The prop in the rear is style. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340031#340031


    Message 28


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    Time: 08:47:27 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Beech Starship
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Way outside the topic, but I can't resist the temptation to tell this story. In the mid seventies I was working in the tooling machine shop at Cessna's Pawnee Plant and fell in with a bunch of street rodders. I got my heart set on a track roadster with a 26 or 27 T body and one day I spotted a body sitting in a warehouse just south of the Sante Fe tracks in Wellington, a little town about 25 miles south of Wichita. I pulled over and started poking around, looking for someone to ask about it when a fellow called to me from across the street. I told him what I wanted and we started talking about this and that and he invited me into his shop. As we passed from the customer waiting area of the body shop into the back, he asked me if I'd ever heard of a car called the Tucker. I said, yes, when I was a kid my grandparents used to take me to San Francisco and we always stopped at this little odd ball museum and curiosity shop called Sutros on the way to the beach and they had one. Well then he said, you'll appreciate this and opened the door. There were seven Tuckers sitting there along with three Cords. When I pulled my jaw back into position I found out the story. Seems these two brothers had established a niche for themselves restoring Cords and that led them into restoring Tuckers (the Tucker used the Cord's transmission). I only wish I had had a camera. Rick Girard On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote: > noelloveys@yahoo.ca> > > I've flown in aircraft like the Lake LA-4 which has a tower mounted pusher > prop and a modified Volmer Jensen VJ-22 Sportsman with a 125 Hp Lycoming > tractor... also tower mounted. Guess which one was louder. That said I > agree the tractor config is more efficient. > > The advantage of the props on the star ship is it allow much more torque to > accelerate off short runways compared to straight turbines. It's too bad > they didn't have the finances to work out the bugs. > > This is not the first time this has happened. The Tucker automobile was > another car among cars with more innovations than Lipton has teabags but > you > will probably never even see one. > > Noel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. > Jones > Sent: May 16, 2011 3:48 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Beech Starship > > <emjones@charter.net> > > > > I don't think anyone will argue the physics of rear driven aircraft. > There > are some practical compromises like balance which you overcome with the > praying nose wheel. That's not to say forward driven airplanes don't suffer > compromises. They certainly do. This is largely about marketing to the > masses and what the public is willing to accept. > > > ...A propeller in undisturbed air, and an engine where cooling is easy is a > recipe for good design. NO record-speed-holder airplane is rear driven. A > propeller blade which has to cut through the aircrafts' wake makes for a > noisy and inefficient prop. > > The prop in the rear is style. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340031#340031 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx




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