Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:17 AM - Brass bus bar (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
2. 05:17 AM - Re: Brass bus bar (Bill Bradburry)
3. 07:29 AM - Re: Brass bus bar (Henador Titzoff)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Brass bus bar (Henador Titzoff)
5. 08:18 AM - Re: Brass bus bar (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
6. 11:18 AM - Re: Brass bus bar (rparigoris)
7. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Brass bus bar (Henador Titzoff)
8. 02:45 PM - Re: How to arrange the fat wires (Christopher SeaStone)
9. 03:09 PM - Hands-on Builder Assistance Houston Area? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Brass bus bar (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 03:16 PM - Re: Brass bus bar (rparigoris)
12. 04:47 PM - Re: Re: Brass bus bar (Henador Titzoff)
Message 1
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So, me thinks that the best conclusion from this thread is: If you want
the best bus, use a gold plated silver bar. This will give you the
lowest resistance and the highest rejection of corrosion. Mine will be
on order as soon as my house refinancing goes through
=98=BA=98=BA=98=BA
Roger
Message 2
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Henador would know about gold. He used solid gold in all his fat wires.
When the engine fails to catch, he just flies on the starter! :>)
B2
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador
Titzoff
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Brass bus bar
Bob,
I'm not sure where you got those "relative resistivity" numbers below, as
I've always seen metals and other substances' resistance described as
Ohms/meter. However, I checked the resistance of silver over copper and
compared them to your numbers below (15.9/17.1), and the ratios are the
same.
I just want to point out that gold should be in there between copper and
aluminum. Gold is widely used in the electronics industry to plate
connector pins and sockets, on integrated circuits to connect die to pins
and pads, and on circuit board pads. No doubt there are countless other
uses for gold in electrical circuits.
Eric's fat wires are a great trade off between resistivity, weight and
volume. It's one of the best simple ideas to come out of the aerospace
industry. My hat off to Eric for being one of our vendors!
Henador Titzoff
_____
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Brass bus bar
<robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
Without going into detail of units etc, the relative resistivity of common
conductors is as follows. The best common conductor is silver, with copper a
close second. Stainless is waaay down the list. A smaller number represents
a better conductor from a purely conductive viewpoint. (The smaller the
number the less losses) Best to stick to copper conductors wherever feasible
with the possible exception of Eric's copper clad aluminium for very long
heavy runs. ( http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm )
Silver 15.9
Copper 17.1
Aluminium 26.5
Brass 64.0
Mild steel 180
Stainless steel 720
Nichrome 1500 (used for heating elements)
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 11:58 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Brass bus bar
>
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 10:02 PM 6/4/2011, you wrote:
> >
> >Thanks Bob,
> >
> >I found a strip of stainless. .028 thick X 3/4 wide. I believe the
> >terminals of the BlueSea ANL holders are stainless.
>
> Hmmmm . . .
>
> Keep in mind that the threaded fasteners used to
> hold things together are just that . . . designed
> to hold things together. In this case we're hoping
> to put sufficient 'mash' on OTHER materials that
> are the current carrying conductors such that large
> areas of 'gas tightness' are achieved. Those are typically
> tin-plated copper terminals.
>
>
> > I applied some terminal
> >conductive paste for corrosion control on the aluminum ring terminals.
The
> >Stainless strip connects the two ANL holders. We'll see how this combo
> >holds up. All parts are easily accessible and replaceable if necessary
> >after flying. Thanks for the responses.
>
> Folks who float boats have an environmental
> stress not common to airplanes. Corrosion.
> There's a strong reason to look for more
> materials more robust in the salt-air.
>
> But that's a trade off. Stainless is, I
> believe, less conductive than brass. So
> heating of the material may well contribute
> to joint failure. Stainless is harder too,
> the area of "gas-tightness" is lower for
> the same-mate up forces. Aluminum gets you
> some pretty good contact area but it is the
> most reactive of the metals we've discussed.
>
> Thick brass or thinner copper are the
> materials of choice for jumpers between
> fat-terminals. ESPECIALLY if those jumpers
> carry starter currents. Stainless and
> particularly aluminum are not recommended.
> Stainless HARDWARE to hold things together
> is fine . . . where conductors come together
> with other conductors is our focus for
> performance.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> ===========================
> ======
> _-
> ===========================
> ======
> _-
> ===========================
> ======
> _-
> ===========================
> ======
>
>
< --> sp; -===============
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
Save your house and go with copper plated aluminum or just copper. =C2-I'
ll even finance it for you. :)=0A=C2-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A_________
_______________________=0AFrom: ROGER & JEAN CURTIS <mrspudandcompany@veri
zon.net>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, June 6, 2011
8:13 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Brass bus bar=0A=0A=0A =0ASo, me thi
nks that the best conclusion from=0Athis thread is:=C2- If you want the b
est bus, use a gold plated silver bar.=C2- This=0Awill give you the lowes
t resistance and the highest rejection of corrosion.=C2- Mine=0Awill be o
n order as soon as my house refinancing goes through =98=BA=98=BA
=98=BA=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
=========================0A
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
Thank you very much, Ron. -I checked out your website and found one link
to a "relative resistivity" chart that I really like. -It's really a rela
tive conductivity chart, which is of course the reciprocal. -It shows cop
per to be 100%, and it compares everything to it. -Silver, for example, h
as a conductivity of 105%.=0A=0AI really like this chart and info below it.
-It says that although brass has a large percentage of copper, its condu
ctivity is degraded much more by the additive metals than the percentages o
f them in brass. -I never use brass for electrical conduction, although i
t can be used for RFI shielding.=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A=0A_______
_________________________=0AFrom: rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:40 PM
=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar=0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List
message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>=0A=0AHi Bob
=0A=0AA while back I put together a list of links for galvonic and conducti
vity info:=0A=0Ahttp://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId
=87240=0A=0AIt's in word format, you need to click on "download document"
.=0A=0ARon Parigoris=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp:/
/forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342151#342151=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=========================0A
===================
Message 5
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Save your house and go with copper plated aluminum or just
copper. I'll even finance it for you. :)
Seriously, what I used, and find that it works great and is
inexpensive is, 3/8" soft copper tubing. Take the tubing and flatten it
in
your vice and it becomes a nice bar that you can solder on tabs, and it
will
carry the current load.
Roger
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
Hi Henador
"Thank you very much, Ron. I checked out your website and found one link to a "relative
resistivity" chart that I really like. It's really a relative conductivity
chart, which is of course the reciprocal. It shows copper to be 100%, and
it compares everything to it. Silver, for example, has a conductivity of 105%."
I too like that chart.
I have been using copper bus bars (and thin wires):
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710
and silver plating using cool amp:
http://www.cool-amp.com/
When copper oxidizess it doesn't conduct very well, silver when it tarnishes it
still conducts somewhat. I find it easy to use, it is non toxic and if I let
plain copper sit around it needs cleaning before use which sometimes is a pain,
but the plated parts are still beautiful.
I did a test leaving some plain copper bus and some plated copper bus sit in my
yard for some time (probably more than a year). The copper is dark brown and
will not solder at all unless cleaned. the silver plated bus is a little tarnished
but still solders OK believe it or not.
I should take a pic of what this thin wide wire/bus looks like now:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30937
I plated the end in the foreground with six screws, I also plated just a hole punch
sized spot. Now the copper is plenty brown just sitting around in the hangar.
the silver plate still looks great. Now the other end is plated, but if you
had to clean oxidized copper there for final assembly like I did a few months
ago, what a pain.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342214#342214
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
Groan, Ron! The prices of the Cool-Amp is $231.87 for a 16 oz bottle and Co
nducto-Lube is $496.72 for a 8 oz bottle! -At those prices, I'd have to s
ell my house and outsource my wife! -I like much better burnishing the co
rrosion off the copper, which is easy to do and cheap. -This business of
using silver bus bar or Cool-Amp/Conducto-Lube is okay for the US governmen
t, which we all know has an endless bucket of money. :)=0A=0AI could see us
ing these two materials in our experimental airplanes if there was a reliab
ility problem that we're trying to solve; however, I haven't heard of one,
and a one foot of 1/8"x1/2" C110 H04 copper bus bar costs only $3.16 at Onl
ineMetals.com, plus shipping. -I think this is reasonable.=0A-=0AHenado
r Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: rparigoris <rpar
igor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monda
y, June 6, 2011 2:14 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar=0A
lib.ny.us>=0A=0AHi Henador=0A=0A"Thank you very much, Ron. I checked out yo
ur website and found one link to a "relative resistivity" chart that I real
ly like. It's really a relative conductivity chart, which is of course the
reciprocal. It shows copper to be 100%, and it compares everything to it. S
ilver, for example, has a conductivity of 105%."=0A=0AI too like that chart
.=0A=0AI have been using copper bus bars (and thin wires):=0Ahttp://www.eur
opaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710=0Aand silver plating us
ing cool amp:=0Ahttp://www.cool-amp.com/=0A=0AWhen copper oxidizess it does
n't conduct very well, silver when it tarnishes it still conducts somewhat.
I find it easy to use, it is non toxic and if I let plain copper sit aroun
d it needs cleaning before use which sometimes is a pain, but the plated pa
rts are still beautiful.=0A=0AI did a test leaving some plain copper bus an
d some plated copper bus sit in my yard for some time (probably more than a
year). The copper is dark brown and will not solder at all unless cleaned.
the silver plated bus is a little tarnished but still solders OK believe i
t or not. =0A=0AI should take a pic of what this thin wide wire/bus looks l
ike now:=0Ahttp://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=3093
7=0AI plated the end in the foreground with six screws, I also plated just
a hole punch sized spot. Now the copper is plenty brown just sitting around
in the hangar. the silver plate still looks great. Now the other end is pl
ated, but if you had to clean oxidized copper there for final assembly like
I did a few months ago, what a pain. =0A=0ARon Parigoris=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARea
d this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p
=========================0A
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Adm
=====
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: How to arrange the fat wires |
Hi Michael,
As a data point... RV-8 w/ rear mounted battery w/AWG 4 welding cable to
the starter contactor and from starter contactor to starter. I mounted the
starter contactor in the baggage compartment, right side near the bottom on
the gear leg tower. This creates a breakout point for the fatwire to the
main bus. It is also the point for the alternator B-lead connection. There
is a 60 amp ANL fuse adjacent to the starter contactor that protects the
alternator B-lead wire.
chris
RV-8 #2
Newberg, OR
BTW... I am in the BAY from time to time visiting friends in San Ramon
(Arenas Ct). Would like to see your project if you are agreeable.
cs
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 11:37 AM, <MLWynn@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have been scratching my head about a wiring layout issue. I am wiring an
> RV 8, rear mounted battery. I have a #2 wire from the primary contactor
> that needs to go to the starter contactor on the far side of the firewall.
> I also need a #8 or so wire to my main bus--in this case a VP-X.
>
> So here's my question: do I run the #2 uninterrupted to the starter
> contactor and then run a wire back through the firewall to the main bus or
> do I break the #2 and run the bus wire more directly. I am reluctant to
> break the fat wire before the starter but bringing a relatively fat wire
> back through the firewall has its downside as well.
>
> If I am going to break the #2 wire, what is the best physical method of
> doing so. I have seen fiberglass pass-throughs, but I don't think they are
> adequate firewall material. There are insulated posts. My auto mechanic
> friend suggested terminals held together with a bolt and well insulated.
>
> Thoughts on this?
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Wynn
> RV 8 Wiring
> San Ramon, CA
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Hands-on Builder Assistance Houston Area? |
Got a call today from a retired airline pilot who is
involved in a number of build/restoration projects. A
noteworthy project he mentioned was a '49 Piper that's
been completely restored with respect to airframe and
engine but needs some attention now for a modern
electrical system.
Anyone in the Houston area interested in getting
involved? Of course, you'd have the enthusiastic
support and near-real-time contact with all of us
here on the List.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
At 03:15 PM 6/6/2011, you wrote:
>Groan, Ron! The prices of the Cool-Amp is $231.87 for a 16 oz bottle
>and Conducto-Lube is $496.72 for a 8 oz bottle! At those prices,
>I'd have to sell my house and outsource my wife!
Such potions are mostly intended for connectors that
can be mated/de-mated with some frequency and do not
enjoy gas-tight make-up of the contacts.
The only time you might get some benefit for permanent
joints is if they've been made up too loose to begin
with. Those products are popular with the maintenance
folks in factories, etc. but I've never seen them
called out on an airplane drawing anywhere.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
Hi Henador
If you take a look on cool Amps site they sell a 2 oz. jar for $43.95
If you go in with some of your buddies (probably up to 10) you all will have a
lifetime supply.
A sixteen oz. jar would be good for probably a lifetime supply for 80 builders.
There are problems with copper. There are places where if it oxidizes it is hard
to clean. For instance my port and starboard connecting copper thin wide wire.
They plate copper lugs for that same reason, would be hard to clean internal
portion.
Cool amp also works on brass. My Flaming River race car cut off contactor got the
threads and mounting hardware plated as well. Again it was installed a while
ago and hard to remove to clean contact areas. the silver plating a few months
ago were in very nice condition where other brass stuff would in fact need
burnishing.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342250#342250
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
Ron,=0A=0AUsually going in with the guys doesn't work, as one of them will
use Cool-Amps to do his whole house and poof, it's gone! -Either that or
nobody knows where it is anymore. -I've found that as you involve 2 or mo
re people in any effort, it gets complicated.=0A=0AGreat product, but the r
eal reason that Cool-Amps is not cost effective for what we're doing is bec
ause it is a solution (no pun intended) looking for a problem. -AE bus ba
r designs are so easy to get to on our airplanes that even Kim Kardashian c
ould burnish one for you. As Bob pointed out, gas tight fittings have been
solving the corrosion problem for decades.=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.li
b.ny.us>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, June 6, 2011
6:13 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar=0A=0A--> AeroElect
ric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>=0A=0A
Hi Henador=0A=0AIf you take a look on cool Amps site they sell a 2 oz. jar
for $43.95=0A=0AIf you go in with some of your buddies (probably up to 10)
you all will have a lifetime supply.=0A=0AA sixteen oz. jar would be good f
or probably a lifetime supply for 80 builders.=0A=0AThere are problems with
copper. There are places where if it oxidizes it is hard to clean. For ins
tance my port and starboard connecting copper thin wide wire. They plate co
pper lugs for that same reason, would be hard to clean internal portion.=0A
=0ACool amp also works on brass. My Flaming River race car cut off contacto
r got the threads and mounting hardware plated as well. Again it was instal
led a while ago and hard to remove to clean contact areas. the silver plati
ng a few months ago were in very nice condition where other brass stuff wou
ld in fact need burnishing. =0A=0ARon Parigoris=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this top
ic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342250#3
==
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