Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:16 AM - Re: Re: Brass bus bar (Henador Titzoff)
2. 05:35 AM - Re: Re: Brass bus bar (William Slaughter)
3. 05:37 AM - Re: Re: Brass bus bar (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:05 AM - Switch Position within the Circuit (stearman456)
5. 08:52 AM - Re: Switch Position within the Circuit (Vern Little)
6. 09:53 AM - Re: Switch Position within the Circuit (stearman456)
7. 10:50 AM - Switch Position within the Circuit (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 11:24 AM - Re: Switch Position within the Circuit (stearman456)
9. 07:28 PM - Re: Re: Brass bus bar (Kent Orr)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
Wow,=0A=0AIf you cannot find copper bus bar at your location and you do NOT
want to have it shipped in, then your obvious solution is to use Roger/Jea
n Curtis' solution. -He/she said that they flattened 3/8" soft copper tub
ing in a vise, and it works great!=0A=0AProblem solved.=0A-=0AHenador Tit
zoff=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: B Tomm <fvalarm@ra
pidnet.net>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, June 8
, 2011 1:07 AM=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar=0A=0A-->
AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>=0A=0A
Wow,=0A=0AI had no idea what a lively discussion my original question would
initiate.=0AI have learned much but not the answer to the original questio
n. Maybe it is=0Aless important than the sum of all the new knowledge in my
old noggin.=0A=0AOK, I understand that my electrician friend's advice abou
t using stainless=0Abar stock with the stainless terminals is not ideal for
aircraft.- I still=0Ahave not found 1/8" copper bar stock locally and re
ally don't want to ship=0Ait.=0A=0AWhat about using some 1/2" copper plumbi
ng pipe, hammer flatten each end of=0Ait's 3" length, drill mounting holes
as required and bolt it in?=0A=0ABy the way, the current going through this
bar stock connector will max out=0Aat about 55amp under max (everything on
) load and is protected by the 60 amp=0AANL fuse, to which it is connected.
=0A=0ABevan=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list
-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.co
m] On Behalf Of Robert L.=0ANuckolls, III=0ASent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:
06 AM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-Lis
L. Nuckolls, III" =0A--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A=0A=0A>I really
recommend configuring wiring so as to not need a bus bar.=0A=0A- - Not
sure what this means. In the classic sense, a=0A- - bus bar is a solid
conductor distribution point from=0A- - which multiple branch feeds are
taken. The strip of=0A- - conductor behind rows of breakers on the pan
el is=0A- - a "bus". The strip of conductor down the center of=0A-
- a multiple slot fuse holder is a "bus".=0A=0A- - But when you want
to connect two closely spaced=0A- - studs together, like on a pair of c
ontactors with=0A- - bar stock, that's a rectangular wire. I can deduce
=0A- - no value in designing "not to need a bus bar."=0A- - They ar
e used wherever they present the elegant=0A- - solution for minimizing
parts count.=0A=0A>Factoids: Gold is good for low corrosion and its resulti
ng low =0A>resistance. But it only makes sense for very low voltages/curren
ts.=0A=0A- - The only time gold has a 'voltage/current' significance
=0A- - is in the use of gold for switching. The very best=0A- - s
witches and relays for switching tiny signal=0A- - levels feature gold
plated contacts. But gold=0A- - is easily eroded away if the wattage
levels=0A- - in the switch circuit get very high. We generally=0A-
- limit the use gold switches and relays in the tens=0A- - of milli
amps and tens of volts range. See:=0A=0Ahttp://www.aeroelectric.com/Referen
ce_Docs/Microswitch/=0A=0A>- You might think gold might would be a great
conductor, but it isn't.=0A=0A- - But it's not "bad" either. The conduc
tivity=0A- - of gold is relatively insignificant because=0A- - nobo
dy makes either wire or bus bars out of gold.=0A- - They do PLATE certa
in conductors with gold for=0A- - the purpose of minimizing surface cor
rosion=0A- - . . . the layers are so thin as to add no=0A- - signif
icant resistance to the joint.=0A=0A=0A>Factoid: Copper and other metals wo
rks even if oxidized=0A=0A- - ??? Don't know what "works" means. Every
material=0A- - and the manner in which joints are made with other=0A-
- materials will drive system performance. If the=0A- - materials ar
e particularly reactive with each other=0A- - and with oxygen in the pr
esence of moisture, performance=0A- - levels will degrade with time.=0A
=0A- - It's true that the observable surfaces of conductors=0A- - c
an be severely corroded without observable=0A- - performance issues . .
. this happens because=0A- - the metal-to-metal interface between comp
onents=0A- - is sealed from the environment . . . i.e. GAS=0A- - TI
GHT.=0A=0A- - So whether your "rectangular wires" of choice=0A- - a
re copper, aluminum or brass, both initial=0A- - and future performance
is dependent upon maintaining=0A- - gas-tightness of the joint either
by exemplary=0A- - craftsmanship on assembly, periodic maintenance=0A
- - later or both.=0A=0A>- so keep those connections clean and tight.
=================
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
I used a sheet of copper stock and cut the strips I needed from it.
Available at hardware stores and hobby shops. Google K&S to find info. Storm
Copper has everything you can imagine if you decide that you can order it in
after all.
William
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Tomm
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 12:08 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar
Wow,
I had no idea what a lively discussion my original question would initiate.
I have learned much but not the answer to the original question. Maybe it is
less important than the sum of all the new knowledge in my old noggin.
OK, I understand that my electrician friend's advice about using stainless
bar stock with the stainless terminals is not ideal for aircraft. I still
have not found 1/8" copper bar stock locally and really don't want to ship
it.
What about using some 1/2" copper plumbing pipe, hammer flatten each end of
it's 3" length, drill mounting holes as required and bolt it in?
By the way, the current going through this bar stock connector will max out
at about 55amp under max (everything on) load and is protected by the 60 amp
ANL fuse, to which it is connected.
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>I really recommend configuring wiring so as to not need a bus bar.
Not sure what this means. In the classic sense, a
bus bar is a solid conductor distribution point from
which multiple branch feeds are taken. The strip of
conductor behind rows of breakers on the panel is
a "bus". The strip of conductor down the center of
a multiple slot fuse holder is a "bus".
But when you want to connect two closely spaced
studs together, like on a pair of contactors with
bar stock, that's a rectangular wire. I can deduce
no value in designing "not to need a bus bar."
They are used wherever they present the elegant
solution for minimizing parts count.
>Factoids: Gold is good for low corrosion and its resulting low
>resistance. But it only makes sense for very low voltages/currents.
The only time gold has a 'voltage/current' significance
is in the use of gold for switching. The very best
switches and relays for switching tiny signal
levels feature gold plated contacts. But gold
is easily eroded away if the wattage levels
in the switch circuit get very high. We generally
limit the use gold switches and relays in the tens
of milliamps and tens of volts range. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Microswitch/
> You might think gold might would be a great conductor, but it isn't.
But it's not "bad" either. The conductivity
of gold is relatively insignificant because
nobody makes either wire or bus bars out of gold.
They do PLATE certain conductors with gold for
the purpose of minimizing surface corrosion
. . . the layers are so thin as to add no
significant resistance to the joint.
>Factoid: Copper and other metals works even if oxidized
??? Don't know what "works" means. Every material
and the manner in which joints are made with other
materials will drive system performance. If the
materials are particularly reactive with each other
and with oxygen in the presence of moisture, performance
levels will degrade with time.
It's true that the observable surfaces of conductors
can be severely corroded without observable
performance issues . . . this happens because
the metal-to-metal interface between components
is sealed from the environment . . . i.e. GAS
TIGHT.
So whether your "rectangular wires" of choice
are copper, aluminum or brass, both initial
and future performance is dependent upon maintaining
gas-tightness of the joint either by exemplary
craftsmanship on assembly, periodic maintenance
later or both.
> so keep those connections clean and tight.
Hear, HEAR!!!!
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
OK, I understand that my electrician friend's advice about using stainless
bar stock with the stainless terminals is not ideal for aircraft. I still
have not found 1/8" copper bar stock locally and really don't want to ship
it.
1/8" is 'hefty' to your task
What about using some 1/2" copper plumbing pipe, hammer flatten each end of
it's 3" length, drill mounting holes as required and bolt it in?
That would work too but kind'a . . . well . . .
not very graceful. That piece of pipe would be good
for hundreds of amps . . .
By the way, the current going through this bar stock connector will max out
at about 55amp under max (everything on) load and is protected by the 60 amp
ANL fuse, to which it is connected.
For that connection consider using aluminum. .062",
or so, 3/4" wide. Brighten up the interfacing surfaces before
installation. Maybe use some dielectric grease
on those same surfaces (Permatx 67VR or equal
at hardware or automotive parts stores). Torque
the fasteners well.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Switch Position within the Circuit |
On a 12 volt DC system, does it make any difference if the toggle switch is located
between the device and ground vs the device and the + bus bar? Wiring my
aircraft it's going to be more convenient to make the runs from the ground bus
to the cockpit and then to the device and then the the + bus. (There is no
grounding via the airframe - it's a dual wire installation with a ground block
on the firewall.)
Dan
warbirds@shaw.ca
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342406#342406
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Switch Position within the Circuit |
The short answer is yes, it does matter. In the event of an electrical
short circuit (or even when you are servicing), you want to be able to
switch off the circuit. If your unswitched wire is always hot (+12) and you
have a short to ground, which is the most likely scenario, then you can't do
this.
If you need to do ground switching, you can wire in a relay in series with
the +12V feed, with one side of the coil connected to +12V as well. Then,
you can switch the other coil connection to ground to control the circuit.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: stearman456
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 8:01 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Position within the Circuit
On a 12 volt DC system, does it make any difference if the toggle switch is
located between the device and ground vs the device and the + bus bar?
Wiring my aircraft it's going to be more convenient to make the runs from
the ground bus to the cockpit and then to the device and then the the + bus.
(There is no grounding via the airframe - it's a dual wire installation with
a ground block on the firewall.)
Dan
warbirds@shaw.ca
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342406#342406
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Switch Position within the Circuit |
Of course! All it would take is a chafed wire. Man, I can be dumb. Thanks for
the help - back to the drawing board!
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342416#342416
Message 7
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| Subject: | Switch Position within the Circuit |
Good Afternoon Dan,
As another thought, if putting the switch in the "ground" side is more
convenient, go ahead and do it.
Just make sure the circuit breaker is properly located as close as
practical to the primary power source and that it is properly sized to protect
the
wire used.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Stearman N3977A
LL22
In a message dated 6/8/2011 11:55:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
warbirds@shaw.ca writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "stearman456" <warbirds@shaw.ca>
Of course! All it would take is a chafed wire. Man, I can be dumb.
Thanks for the help - back to the drawing board!
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342416#342416
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Switch Position within the Circuit |
Hi Bob,
It's not a big deal, just a little less direct routing of the main bundle from
the junction box on the backside of the firewall, but not by much. Mine is also
a Stearman, so there's lots of room for it.
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342424#342424
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bus bar |
Bevan,
You might try going to an electrical contractor or electrical supply
house and see if they have any scrap electrical panels. A 200A or 400A
panel should have 1/8" thick copper bus bars in it.
Good Luck
Kent
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B
Tomm
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 12:08 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar
Wow,
I had no idea what a lively discussion my original question would
initiate.
I have learned much but not the answer to the original question. Maybe
it is
less important than the sum of all the new knowledge in my old noggin.
OK, I understand that my electrician friend's advice about using
stainless
bar stock with the stainless terminals is not ideal for aircraft. I
still
have not found 1/8" copper bar stock locally and really don't want to
ship
it.
What about using some 1/2" copper plumbing pipe, hammer flatten each end
of
it's 3" length, drill mounting holes as required and bolt it in?
By the way, the current going through this bar stock connector will max
out
at about 55amp under max (everything on) load and is protected by the 60
amp
ANL fuse, to which it is connected.
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>I really recommend configuring wiring so as to not need a bus bar.
Not sure what this means. In the classic sense, a
bus bar is a solid conductor distribution point from
which multiple branch feeds are taken. The strip of
conductor behind rows of breakers on the panel is
a "bus". The strip of conductor down the center of
a multiple slot fuse holder is a "bus".
But when you want to connect two closely spaced
studs together, like on a pair of contactors with
bar stock, that's a rectangular wire. I can deduce
no value in designing "not to need a bus bar."
They are used wherever they present the elegant
solution for minimizing parts count.
>Factoids: Gold is good for low corrosion and its resulting low
>resistance. But it only makes sense for very low voltages/currents.
The only time gold has a 'voltage/current' significance
is in the use of gold for switching. The very best
switches and relays for switching tiny signal
levels feature gold plated contacts. But gold
is easily eroded away if the wattage levels
in the switch circuit get very high. We generally
limit the use gold switches and relays in the tens
of milliamps and tens of volts range. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Microswitch/
> You might think gold might would be a great conductor, but it isn't.
But it's not "bad" either. The conductivity
of gold is relatively insignificant because
nobody makes either wire or bus bars out of gold.
They do PLATE certain conductors with gold for
the purpose of minimizing surface corrosion
. . . the layers are so thin as to add no
significant resistance to the joint.
>Factoid: Copper and other metals works even if oxidized
??? Don't know what "works" means. Every material
and the manner in which joints are made with other
materials will drive system performance. If the
materials are particularly reactive with each other
and with oxygen in the presence of moisture, performance
levels will degrade with time.
It's true that the observable surfaces of conductors
can be severely corroded without observable
performance issues . . . this happens because
the metal-to-metal interface between components
is sealed from the environment . . . i.e. GAS
TIGHT.
So whether your "rectangular wires" of choice
are copper, aluminum or brass, both initial
and future performance is dependent upon maintaining
gas-tightness of the joint either by exemplary
craftsmanship on assembly, periodic maintenance
later or both.
> so keep those connections clean and tight.
Hear, HEAR!!!!
Bob . . .
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