AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 06/14/11


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:40 AM - Re: Inflight load return wire size (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 06:30 AM - Re: Inflight load return wire size (Stuart Hutchison)
     3. 07:37 AM - Re: Inflight load return wire size (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 01:29 PM - Current advice on Battery charger/tenders? (Radioflyer)
     5. 02:14 PM - Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 02:59 PM - Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders? (David Lloyd)
     7. 06:11 PM - Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 08:51 PM - Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders? (Radioflyer)
     9. 11:01 PM - Re: Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:40:47 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Inflight load return wire size
    At 11:54 PM 6/13/2011, you wrote: ><stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> > >Thanks Bob, > >Yes, I have an IO-540 with the starter about 10 feet ahead of the battery. >This configuration is needed A) due to space limitations and B) for weight >and balance. I understand the need for a big cable to carry start current >and planned to ground this current via the airframe to a local bonding strap >next to the battery. However, after start, normal inflight currents will >obviously feed via the same big cable to the hot pole of the starter >contactor, then to the busses and I would like to ground via a dedicated >return to the battery post that is only 6 AWG and is insulated from the >airframe. Ground what? If the engine is grounded to airframe (at the firewall ground bus?) and the battery is grounded to airframe locally, everything else goes to the firewall ground bus. You don't need any wire going back to the battery(-) for grounding other things. > I don't understand why we need an return cable the same size as >the starter wire when only 60-70A max is passing through this during flight? >Z-15 shows the engine bonding strap connected to a 2 AWG return all the way >to the battery, For a plastic airplane that. That pathway CAN be eliminated in metal airplanes as described above. > but I propose not to do this, since high currents are only >required during start and can be grounded via the airframe for that short >period. I would have thought any noise generated during start would be >acceptable, because it is temporary? Perhaps different sized power and >return wires cause noise regardless of whether they are both quite able to >carry the current .. I don't know? This is not a noise issue, only cranking performance. Do Z-15 with local ground for the battery, single point firewall ground for everything else (with exceptions for remotely grounded, non-victims noted) and you're done. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:30:28 AM PST US
    From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
    Subject: Inflight load return wire size
    OK, thanks Bob. I seem to recall reading somewhere ... over the past 3 years ... that grounding the avionics at the firewall in a metal airframe can lead to multiple grounds with different potentials. Perhaps I confused this with grounding the various avionics boxes to the airframe whereever it happened to be convenient, rather than at a common point. Kind regards, Stu -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:36 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Inflight load return wire size --> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> At 11:54 PM 6/13/2011, you wrote: ><stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> > >Thanks Bob, > >Yes, I have an IO-540 with the starter about 10 feet ahead of the battery. >This configuration is needed A) due to space limitations and B) for >weight and balance. I understand the need for a big cable to carry >start current and planned to ground this current via the airframe to a >local bonding strap next to the battery. However, after start, normal >inflight currents will obviously feed via the same big cable to the hot >pole of the starter contactor, then to the busses and I would like to >ground via a dedicated return to the battery post that is only 6 AWG >and is insulated from the airframe. Ground what? If the engine is grounded to airframe (at the firewall ground bus?) and the battery is grounded to airframe locally, everything else goes to the firewall ground bus. You don't need any wire going back to the battery(-) for grounding other things. > I don't understand why we need an return cable the same size as the >starter wire when only 60-70A max is passing through this during flight? >Z-15 shows the engine bonding strap connected to a 2 AWG return all the >way to the battery, For a plastic airplane that. That pathway CAN be eliminated in metal airplanes as described above. > but I propose not to do this, since high currents are only required >during start and can be grounded via the airframe for that short >period. I would have thought any noise generated during start would be >acceptable, because it is temporary? Perhaps different sized power and >return wires cause noise regardless of whether they are both quite able >to carry the current .. I don't know? This is not a noise issue, only cranking performance. Do Z-15 with local ground for the battery, single point firewall ground for everything else (with exceptions for remotely grounded, non-victims noted) and you're done. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:37:20 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Inflight load return wire size
    At 09:26 AM 6/14/2011, you wrote: ><stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> > > >OK, thanks Bob. > >I seem to recall reading somewhere ... over the past 3 years ... that >grounding the avionics at the firewall in a metal airframe can lead to >multiple grounds with different potentials. Perhaps I confused this with >grounding the various avionics boxes to the airframe whereever it happened >to be convenient, rather than at a common point. Yeah. Lots if not most avionics get grounded to the airframe locally because their power and signal grounds are common to chassis. This is what prompted the idea behind the avionics panel ground bus added to the Z-figures along with this product to the catalog. Emacs! The idea is to take all the potential victims to ground in a location as local to the avionics package as practical. Ground-loops on the panel are short, and VERY weakly excited. Once the potential victims are fire-walled, you can take the power grounds off the panel to about anywhere free of concerns for installation induced noise. This is not so much about holding big risks for noise at bay as it is doing-the- best-we-know-how-to-do without jacking up cost of ownership. The local ground bus on the panel is a great convenience when assembling the panel that also goes to risk of noise reduction. When we put the insulating washers under headset and mic jacks, THAT activity beat down most of the risk for noises in the radios right there. There is still the occasional strobe noise issue but those are pretty rare now too. The point is that after 100 years of bolting engines to wings and climbing aboard, our recipe for success is pretty well refined. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 01:29:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders?
    From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp@airpost.net>
    A while ago I purchased a Shumacher 1562A (not the original 1562) battery minder. I forget the details, but it did not seem to be supplying the correct voltages. I sent it to Bob K. for investigation, but I doubt that he has had a chance to look into it. I think that Schumacher now has a new line of this type of charger. Anybody using these "Speed Charger" products? What are people using these days to top off their sealed lead-acid batteries. --Jose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342964#342964


    Message 5


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    Time: 02:14:11 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders?
    At 04:24 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: > >A while ago I purchased a Shumacher 1562A (not the original 1562) >battery minder. I forget the details, but it did not seem to be >supplying the correct voltages. I sent it to Bob K. for >investigation, but I doubt that he has had a chance to look into it. ???? when did you sent it and to what address. I don't have it in hand. >I think that Schumacher now has a new line of this type of charger. >Anybody using these "Speed Charger" products? What are people using >these days to top off their sealed lead-acid batteries. I've purchased a number of 1562's over the years. A couple for personal use and more for customer applications. I've only plotted the performance of a couple . . . and they both plotted out like this http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg Schumacher is an old-line charger house with pretty good credentials and history. What's your application and what's your budget? I have a couple of the gee-whiz processor controlled chargers . . . haven't plugged on in for years. I think I reduce the inventory to one and put the others in the next garage sale. I've got several maintainers that cover 99% of my charging/maintaining needs. Meaning I almost never plug in a battery where I need to put it back in service in less than 24-48 hours . . . so the itty-bitty wall-wart style devices get the job done. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 02:59:30 PM PST US
    From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders?
    Bob, I noted your plotted graph for the 1562 style charger. How important is it for the charger to top off at the 15v before dropping down to the 13 volt float range...? I ask because some of the "itty bitty" lower cost units (Harbor Freight, etc.) appear to slowly bring the charge up to the 13 volt range and just float there. Thus, skipping the 'top off' potential. This is referring to standard or sealed aircraft batteries usage..... Dave ________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:09 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders? > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 04:24 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: >><skyeyecorp@airpost.net> >> >>A while ago I purchased a Shumacher 1562A (not the original 1562) battery >>minder. I forget the details, but it did not seem to be supplying the >>correct voltages. I sent it to Bob K. for investigation, but I doubt that >>he has had a chance to look into it. > > ???? when did you sent it and to what address. I > don't have it in hand. > >>I think that Schumacher now has a new line of this type of charger. >>Anybody using these "Speed Charger" products? What are people using these >>days to top off their sealed lead-acid batteries. > > I've purchased a number of 1562's over the years. A couple > for personal use and more for customer applications. I've > only plotted the performance of a couple . . . and they > both plotted out like this > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg > > Schumacher is an old-line charger house with pretty > good credentials and history. What's your application > and what's your budget? > > I have a couple of the gee-whiz processor controlled > chargers . . . haven't plugged on in for years. I think > I reduce the inventory to one and put the others in > the next garage sale. I've got several maintainers > that cover 99% of my charging/maintaining needs. Meaning > I almost never plug in a battery where I need to put it > back in service in less than 24-48 hours . . . so the > itty-bitty wall-wart style devices get the job done. > > > Bob . . . > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:11:12 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders?
    At 05:55 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I noted your plotted graph for the 1562 style charger. > >How important is it for the charger to top off at the 15v before >dropping down to the 13 volt float range...? > >I ask because some of the "itty bitty" lower cost units (Harbor >Freight, etc.) appear to slowly bring the charge up to the 13 volt >range and just float there. Thus, skipping the 'top off' >potential. This is referring to standard or sealed aircraft >batteries usage..... Doesn't matter which type of lead-acid technology. They all perform best for accepting and then holding a charge when treated thusly. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Ideal_Recharge_Protocol.jpg The Schumacher curve I cited earlier looks something like this. You need to discharge the battery to 'trigger' a top-off on some chargers. So if you hook some smart-chargers to a fully charged battery, they'll drop immediately to a maintenance potential of just over 13 volts. A battery cannot be charged at 13 volts . . . since this is close to the battery's open circuit voltage at rest. That top-off plateau is important if you're going to get 100% of what the battery can store stuffed into it. Go to this directory and you'll find some exemplar recharge curves taken from Battery Tenders, Battery > Minders and some Schumacher products. > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/ > > They don't all offer what appears to be a solid > top-off protocol. I suspect the best approximations > are 98% golden. See: > >http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:51:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders?
    From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp@airpost.net>
    Hi Bob K., I sent the unit to you quite sometime ago maybe spring 2010...I can't recall more exactly. You acknowledged receipt, but I think it was just prior to your workshop move/reorganization. You had warned it would be a while before you could get to it. But, don't worry, no harm done. I'm in need for another unit and am just wondering what I should be getting. Something like the $20, 1 A Shumacher "Speed Charger" unit should be fine for topping off my small Concorde and Odyssey batteries...if the Schumachers are working as they should. --Jose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343008#343008


    Message 9


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    Time: 11:01:51 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Current advice on Battery charger/tenders?
    At 11:44 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: > >Hi Bob K., > >I sent the unit to you quite sometime ago maybe spring 2010...I >can't recall more exactly. You acknowledged receipt, but I think it >was just prior to your workshop move/reorganization. You had warned >it would be a while before you could get to it. But, don't worry, no >harm done. I'm in need for another unit and am just wondering what I >should be getting. Something like the $20, 1 A Shumacher "Speed >Charger" unit should be fine for topping off my small Concorde and >Odyssey batteries...if the Schumachers are working as they should. Hmmmm . . . my bad. I've still got some totes to unpack. These are what one generally refers to as 'chaos boxes", the final dregs of cleaning off the shelves and benches but still awaiting storage space to unload them into. Where are you seeing this "speed charger" offered? Which model? Just curious. If it's got Schumacher's name on it, the risks for failure to perform as advertised is low. By the way, if you're storing multiple batteries on a charger capable of maintenance operations, you can parallel a number of batteries on a single maintainer. Bob . . .




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