---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/22/11: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:22 AM - Mag Timing (Jack Haviland) 2. 03:33 AM - Re: push to test circuit for differing loads (pmnewlon) 3. 03:42 AM - Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (pmnewlon) 4. 06:41 AM - Re: IvoProp current limiter -revisit (n801bh@netzero.com) 5. 06:53 AM - Re: Mag Timing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:39 AM - Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (Eric M. Jones) 7. 01:03 PM - Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 8. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (Bruce) 9. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 10. 02:21 PM - Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 11. 02:46 PM - Re: troubleshooting overvoltages (hhobbit) 12. 02:49 PM - multiple wires to a single terminal (pmnewlon) 13. 03:59 PM - OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? (David) 14. 04:22 PM - Re: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? (Jeff Luckey) 15. 04:32 PM - Re: multiple wires to a single terminal (Bob Leffler) 16. 04:50 PM - Re: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 04:55 PM - Re: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 05:06 PM - Re: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? (David Lloyd) 19. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: troubleshooting overvoltages (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 05:22 PM - Re: multiple wires to a single terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 05:39 PM - Re: multiple wires to a single terminal (rayj) 22. 06:55 PM - Re: multiple wires to a single terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 07:50 PM - Re: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? (Noel Loveys) 24. 07:51 PM - Re: Re: troubleshooting overvoltages (Daniel Hooper) 25. 07:54 PM - Re: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? (Noel Loveys) 26. 08:03 PM - Re: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? (Dennis Golden) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:58 AM PST US From: Jack Haviland Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mag Timing See the low cost magneto timing kit at www.MagnetoTimer.com. It works well and can be built and tested quickly. Jack Haviland RV-6A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:11 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: push to test circuit for differing loads From: "pmnewlon" Thank you guys for your excellent input! Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343736#343736 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:05 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? From: "pmnewlon" > One way is to take a piece of .032 aluminum strip that spans several switches, drill the hole for the strip, and the keyway hole, and install it BEHIND the panel with the lock tab facing the switch panel. Invisible and fairly easy. Guess who got stalled for about a week trying to decide how to do this? This past weekend I went ahead and drilled the holes thru on my right arm rest panel. The parts are painted and assembled now so they are staying the way they are. I am so glad I saw this post before I did the instrument panel itself the same way! You guys rock :-) Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343737#343737 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:43 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: IvoProp current limiter -revisit I can add some insight into why the device might be inconsistant.... I run the Ivo Prop on my V-8 experimental. I switch back and forth from the regular Magnum series tapered blades to the Paddle blades depending on if I am cruising or hitting the back country strips where leading edg e protection in needed. Both are cut down to 76" dia. The regular magnum ones twist alot easier then the paddle ones simply because of the mass of the blades. Maybe one person has the tapered blades and the device wo rks great and the other guy had the paddle blades and that makes it trip the circuit ????. I do find the idea you guys are crafting quite novel and useful. With a BIG disclaimer, I admit I am old school and on my exp erimental I run a non shunted ammeter gauge. Yeah, I know possible radio noise but I crafted my install using as many safeguards as I could and my set up is bone quiet... I like the idea of a quick glance to see if m y charging system is working or not. Voltmeters are good but it takes a moment to do the math and the ammeter shows instantly whether I am keepi ng up with the load or not.. My choice, I know........ The best part of the ammeter gauge is when I change pitch I can look at the gauge and see the neddle deflection. Slight movement shows it is twisting the prop. When I get to the end of the travel, which is pretty easy to guess when that happens, I see the major needle deflection, which is indicative of a locked rotor, then I know I am at my stop. If I don't quickly get of f the switch, in about 2 seconds the Ivo provided CB will trip. Also ke ep in mind during the blade bending event the greatest load is when the prop is at each end of its twisting. The load on the motor is not linear at all throughout the entire range so that needs to be taken into consi deretion.. IMHO. .02 cents worth. Ben. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: IvoProp current limiter -revisit olls.bob@aeroelectric.com> At 11:17 PM 6/21/2011, you wrote: >Thanks for the responses, guys. I really wish I had more time to >try and figure it out >right now, but I'll have to wait until next Monday or so, after I get b ack. > >I went out and did a quick cycle or two of the circuit, and the LEDs >appear to turn on and off >as Dennis describes. The pitch motor obviously is twisting the prop >blades, but the whole >thing still seems to be working exactly as it should, except it only >has a one second range, >from switch on to circuit off, maybe at most, two seconds! > >I did see that if I keep switching in the same direction, over and >over, I can get the opposite >direction to stay "lit" longer, getting it to twist for 3-4 >seconds. I even kept "pressuring it", >and the 10A circuit breaker popped. I reset it, and everything >still worked fine...just briefly. Okay, if your 10A breaker popped, the motor/gearbox combo is drawing way too much current . . . for reasons as yet unknown. The limiter may well be doing what it was designed to do. Try taking it out of the circuit as described earlier and then measure the current. Bob . . . ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Official Obama Website President Obama needs your help. Join his 2012 campaign now. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4e01efe23f9f03ccbst04vuc ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mag Timing At 05:19 AM 6/22/2011, you wrote: >See the low cost magneto timing kit at >www.MagnetoTimer.com. >It works well and can be built and tested quickly. The "magic" behind a magneto timing light is the device's ability to detect points opening and closing when paralleled with a VERY low resistance of a magneto's p-lead winding. The DC resistance measured with points-open is low and goes lower when points close . . . difficult to see with the garden variety ohmmeter. The legacy mag-timer used a buzzer to generate an AC signal (not unlike the Shower-of-Sparks buzzer) to excite the p-lead circuit. Emacs! When the mag points are closed, there's a dead short across the primary of the transformer and no signal is detected by the neon lamp. When the points open, the dc resistance rises slightly but the inductive value rises greatly. The small AC component that appears between the test leads is amplified by the transformer to a value sufficient to light the neon lamp. This is the legacy "buzz box". Additionally, one could generally hear a change in the characteristic of the sound from the buzzer when the points open. You can still build this device from readily available parts. For a compendium of magneto timing devices see: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Magneto_Timing/ There's a dozen ways to "skin this cat." I've not tried it, but I'll bet the low-ohms adapter we developed would detect point-opening/closure on a mag. I'm certain that the new and improved version (coming out shortly) would do it. The directory cited above shows Jim Wier's approach to exciting the open p-lead with a 2 kHz signal and then detecting the rise in circuit impedance as points open to light some leds and give an audible indication. A google search on 'magneto timing' will yield dozens of articles and tools . . . each of which is cited as a better way to skin the cat. In fact, all such tools from the lowly buzz-box to the most sophisticated micro-processor based gee-whiz work as advertised . . . Sometimes, the best way to drive a nail is with a hammer. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? From: "Eric M. Jones" BTW, Keyway slot DOWN. It's settled. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343788#343788 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:30 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? Good Afternoon Eric, The problem is that not only are the manufacturers inconsistent within the industry, but they are inconsistent within their own product lines. I ordered CBs for a project last year. All were ordered from the same manufacturer. Obviously, I wanted all of them installed so that I could read the amperage numbers easily. Most of them had the keyway in the same orientation but many did not. My answer was to drill top and bottom keying holes for all circuit breakers so that they could all have the numbers right side up even though the keyways were in different orientations. So much for standardization even for Klixon! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 6/22/2011 12:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, emjones@charter.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" BTW, Keyway slot DOWN. It's settled. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343788#343788 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:25:46 PM PST US From: "Bruce" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? I would think that the CB's being jammed cheek to jowl, (at least they are on my panel), would make rotation impossible and the washers unnecessary. Bruce WWW.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? Good Afternoon Eric, The problem is that not only are the manufacturers inconsistent within the industry, but they are inconsistent within their own product lines. I ordered CBs for a project last year. All were ordered from the same manufacturer. Obviously, I wanted all of them installed so that I could read the amperage numbers easily. Most of them had the keyway in the same orientation but many did not. My answer was to drill top and bottom keying holes for all circuit breakers so that they could all have the numbers right side up even though the keyways were in different orientations. So much for standardization even for Klixon! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 6/22/2011 12:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, emjones@charter.net writes: BTW, Keyway slot DOWN. It's settled. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343788#343788============== =============================== ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS =============================================== - List Contribution Web Site sp; ================================================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:20 PM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? BTW, Keyway slot DOWN. It's settled. -------- Eric M. Jones Perhaps for you, but apparently not for the rest of the world!!=98=BA Roger ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:57 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? Good Afternoon Bruce, I have no doubt that you are correct and chances are my fears are unfounded, but by using the anti rotation washers, all torque loads are ca rried by the threaded barrel. If you rely on close proximity of the devices to stop rotation, any torque that is present will be applied to the case. Seems a bit more sanitary to confine that torque to one metal shaft! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 6/22/2011 3:27:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BGray@glasair.org writes: I would think that the CB=99s being jammed cheek to jowl, (at least they are on my panel), would make rotation impossible and the washers unnecessary. Bruce WWW.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35 B@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? Good Afternoon Eric, The problem is that not only are the manufacturers inconsistent within th e industry, but they are inconsistent within their own product lines. I ordered CBs for a project last year. All were ordered from the same manufacturer. Obviously, I wanted all of them installed so that I could read the amperage numbers easily. Most of them had the keyway in the same orientation but many did not. My answer was to drill top and bottom keying holes for all circuit breakers so that they could all have the numbers right side up even though the keyway s were in different orientations. So much for standardization even for Klixon! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 6/22/2011 12:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, emjones@charter.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" BTW, Keyway slot DOWN. It's settled. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343788#343788===== ============= == ======================= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================= ====== - List Contribution Web Site sp; - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - --> _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. --> _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) ======================== ============ ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:43 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: troubleshooting overvoltages From: "hhobbit" Has anyone here got a usb oscilloscope? the type that turns a laptop or notebook pc into a storage scope? If you have one, it would be great to find out what are the important specs for such a device. They are on ebay starting at suspiciously cheap $50. I figure on recording for example start up voltage transients in the vicinity of the starter, alternator and regulator. Using such a device, the intention is to eliminate a lot of theorising . The manufacturer tells me there is no history of this kind of trouble, and if there is a rogue regulator or capacitor this could be a definitive way to diagnose. My original question on this forum was for general information on how to go about solving such a problem. BTW I found an interesting general article on ESD: http://www.eib-gmbh.de/englisch/faqs/text_faqs.htm in particular Q13. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343814#343814 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: multiple wires to a single terminal From: "pmnewlon" At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot.... :) I have searched the archives, Bob's AC, and AC43.13 and found nothing that addresses the question "can I (for example) put two 20AWG wires in a 18AWG crimp-on terminal"? Does this defy best practices? It would be electrically sound, mechanically sound, and I think gas-tight. Is it better to lap solder a Y connection with shrink tube and then have a single wire going in the crimped terminal? Along the same lines, how about a solder connection on a switch terminal that needs two wires attached to it? I think the answer to that one is the lap soldered Y. The answer is probably in one of the cited places but I can't seem to come up with the right search words. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343815#343815 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:45 PM PST US From: David Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? I bought an aftermarket horn for my wife's motorcycle that blows 10 amp fuses when you use it. Can I put a capacitor in front of it to keep the fuse from blowing? How do I calculate the size of cap to use? Thanks, David ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:52 PM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? Not sure what the cap will do for you, but I'm sure it won't help reduce current in the circuit. Are you thinking of a resistor? You could put a current-limiting resistor in series with the horn, but then the horn might be a lot quieter. It would require a little experimentation & knowing how many amps the horn draws. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 15:51 Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? I bought an aftermarket horn for my wife's motorcycle that blows 10 amp fuses when you use it. Can I put a capacitor in front of it to keep the fuse from blowing? How do I calculate the size of cap to use? Thanks, David ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:13 PM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: multiple wires to a single terminal You may want to check out the chart on this url: http://www.te.com/catalog/bin/TE.Connect?C=24255&M=HELP&BML=&PID=2963&N=40&R QS=C~1%5EM~BYPN%5ETCPN~2-520184-2%5ERQPN~403233752 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of pmnewlon Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 5:47 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: multiple wires to a single terminal At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot.... :) I have searched the archives, Bob's AC, and AC43.13 and found nothing that addresses the question "can I (for example) put two 20AWG wires in a 18AWG crimp-on terminal"? Does this defy best practices? It would be electrically sound, mechanically sound, and I think gas-tight. Is it better to lap solder a Y connection with shrink tube and then have a single wire going in the crimped terminal? Along the same lines, how about a solder connection on a switch terminal that needs two wires attached to it? I think the answer to that one is the lap soldered Y. The answer is probably in one of the cited places but I can't seem to come up with the right search words. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343815#343815 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? At 05:51 PM 6/22/2011, you wrote: > >I bought an aftermarket horn for my wife's motorcycle that blows 10 >amp fuses when you use it. Can I put a capacitor in front of it to >keep the fuse from blowing? How do I calculate the size of cap to use? Horns are, in general, 'robust' devices. It's not uncommon for automobiles to use relays to put a firewall between the relatively low current horn button and the noisy beast(s) under the hood. Some parts stores offer devices called "horn relays" . . . in fact, these are simply high current rated relays that can be used for any similar control task. http://tinyurl.com/64xls33 Suggest you go with 20A fuse, 14AWG wire and add a relay like so Emacs! Yeah, 20A is a lot of snort and the horn is probably really loud . . . but it's an intermittent duty system that requires less total energy to run than your tail light. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:50 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to hide anti-rotation keyway holes? At 04:18 PM 6/22/2011, you wrote: >Good Afternoon Bruce, > >I have no doubt that you are correct and chances are my fears are >unfounded, but by using the anti rotation washers, all torque loads >are carried by the threaded barrel. If you rely on close proximity >of the devices to stop rotation, any torque that is present will be >applied to the case. Seems a bit more sanitary to confine that >torque to one metal shaft! Good put my friend. I HAVE twisted the mounting barrel off of both breakers and switches by not transferring those torque loads to the panel as opposed to the device body. It probably comes down to planning. If the builder puts the holes in while the panel is being laid out on the table, keyway washer holes are a small part of the total task. ADDING holes after things are bolted to the airplane is another matter. THEN is when the builder is looking for a good excuse not to add them! I've got access to a mill with digital readouts. In the past I've considered offering drill templates for various rows of switches and breakers that would help get ALL the holes nicely lined up and dead-on for location. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:01 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? David, I think that you meant what size "Resister" do I put in series with the horn to reduce the current (amps). It is probably going to be a low value 1 - 3 ohms and it will have to be large in "watt" rating. 10 or more watts, depending on how long you beep the horn. Also, keep in mind that you are trying to make a tuned horn work on less power, under 10 amps, than the current it was designed. So, by cutting back the "power" to the horn, it will probably sound "weird"; maybe not even presentable as a bike horn. Try it on the "bench" first before going to the trouble of mounting it to the bike, etc. and discovering then, that it will not do what you wanted it to do. If you bike's wiring can handle say 20 amp loads with a short duty cycle, I would upgrade the fuse to i.e. 20 amps and not modify the horn using a resister. But, it is critical that you know that the factory wiring can handle this level of current without frying. Dave ___________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David" Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:51 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? > > I bought an aftermarket horn for my wife's motorcycle that blows 10 amp > fuses when you use it. Can I put a capacitor in front of it to keep the > fuse from blowing? How do I calculate the size of cap to use? > > Thanks, > David > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: troubleshooting overvoltages At 04:43 PM 6/22/2011, you wrote: > >Has anyone here got a usb oscilloscope? the type that turns a laptop >or notebook pc into a storage scope? If you have one, it would be >great to find out what are the important specs for such a >device. They are on ebay starting at suspiciously cheap $50. Every one of those products will perform as advertised . . . and in many cases, ANY 'scope is better than NO 'scope. Be wary of the ratings. Know that "samples per second" is related to but separate from "bandwidth." For example: http://tinyurl.com/6b6lytn is advertised as a 200 mHz bandwidth and 250 mega-samples per second. In general, sample rates should be AT LEAST 3x the period of interest. So 250 m-s/S implies a useful bandwidth on the order of 80 mHz . . . which is respectable for a $350 digital 'scope. But really 'clean' paints of wave-forms will be limited to 25 mHz. My Tektronix digital scope is rated at 100 mHz bandwidth and 1000 m-s/Sec. Or 10x the rate of the signal of interest. This means that 100 mHz displayed wave-forms will be very faithful to reality a compared with a device that is only 3x faster. Your search for electrical gremlins needs to capture transients of 100 nanoseconds or longer. Shorter transients are easily shunted off by the capacitors that are invariably part of every piece of electronics. Looking for these little short duration spikes is always disappointing. But to get a good picture of a 100 nS event, you're looking for samples at 20nS intervals which is 50 megasamples/S. So the 'scope described in the link above would suffice. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: multiple wires to a single terminal At 04:47 PM 6/22/2011, you wrote: At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot.... :) I have searched the archives, Bob's AC, and AC43.13 and found nothing that addresses the question "can I (for example) put two 20AWG wires in a 18AWG crimp-on terminal"? Does this defy best practices? Not at all. See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html It would be electrically sound, mechanically sound, and I think gas-tight. Is it better to lap solder a Y connection with shrink tube and then have a single wire going in the crimped terminal? No Along the same lines, how about a solder connection on a switch terminal that needs two wires attached to it? I think the answer to that one is the lap soldered Y. How big a terminal and what size wires. Generally speaking, a solder-terminal on a switch is robust enough to handle wires rated at a level similar to the switch. For example: How big a terminal and what size wires? Generally speaking, a solder-terminal on a switch is robust enough to handle wires rated at a level similar to the switch. For example: Emacs! This 5A switch handles 22AWG wires nicely. But I probably wouldn't pile more than 2 such wires onto one terminal. Emacs! Switches like this are wired with ring terminals. I've seen a couple of terminals stacked onto one screw with perhaps 4-5 total wires. It's pretty much a judgement call. If in doubt, don't add more wires. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:19 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: multiple wires to a single terminal General question on crimping. Is it better to twist the wires together, in the case of multiple wires, or to twist the strands of a single wire or is it better to have them straight and parallel to the sleeve? Thanks. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 06/22/2011 07:19 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 04:47 PM 6/22/2011, you wrote: > > At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot.... :) I have searched the > archives, Bob's AC, and AC43.13 and found nothing that addresses the > question "can I (for example) put two 20AWG wires in a 18AWG crimp-on > terminal"? Does this defy best practices? > > > Not at all. > See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html > > > It would be electrically sound, mechanically sound, and I think > gas-tight. Is it better to lap solder a Y connection with shrink tube > and then have a single wire going in the crimped terminal? > > No > > > Along the same lines, how about a solder connection on a switch terminal > that needs two wires attached to it? I think the answer to that one is > the lap soldered Y. > > How big a terminal and what size wires. Generally > speaking, a solder-terminal on a switch is robust > enough to handle wires rated at a level similar to > the switch. For example: > > How big a terminal and what size wires? > > Generally speaking, a solder-terminal on a switch is robust > enough to handle wires rated at a level similar to > the switch. For example: > > Emacs! > > This 5A switch handles 22AWG wires nicely. But I > probably wouldn't pile more than 2 such wires > onto one terminal. > > Emacs! > > Switches like this are wired with ring terminals. > I've seen a couple of terminals stacked onto one > screw with perhaps 4-5 total wires. It's pretty > much a judgement call. If in doubt, don't add more > wires. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: multiple wires to a single terminal At 07:36 PM 6/22/2011, you wrote: > >General question on crimping. Is it better to twist the wires >together, in the case of multiple wires, or to twist the strands of >a single wire or is it better to have them straight and parallel to the sleeve? Straight and parallel. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:01 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? David a capacitor will filter DC current and pass AC current so it will not work. What you want is probably a resistor which limits current flow. The truth is that if the horn is blowing 10A fuses there is probably a short in the coils of the horn. Bring it back and get another one. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Sent: June 22, 2011 8:21 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? I bought an aftermarket horn for my wife's motorcycle that blows 10 amp fuses when you use it. Can I put a capacitor in front of it to keep the fuse from blowing? How do I calculate the size of cap to use? Thanks, David ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: troubleshooting overvoltages From: Daniel Hooper I have a Rigol 1052E... it has 50MHz bandwidth and 1GS/s (gigasample per second) when using one channel and 500MS/s when using both channels. If you're feeling brave, it can be hacked up to 100MHz bandwidth. Around $400. It has some drawbacks, but it's pretty great for the price. http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html Another option is the DSO Nano v2. It's more of a toy, but a lot cheaper. $99 http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10244 With both you should be able to save images of your captures. The first exceeds Bob's advice, the second doesn't really come close. On Jun 22, 2011, at 4:43 PM, hhobbit wrote: > > Has anyone here got a usb oscilloscope? the type that turns a laptop or notebook pc into a storage scope? If you have one, it would be great to find out what are the important specs for such a device. They are on ebay starting at suspiciously cheap $50. I figure on recording for example start up voltage transients in the vicinity of the starter, alternator and regulator. Using such a device, the intention is to eliminate a lot of theorising . The manufacturer tells me there is no history of this kind of trouble, and if there is a rogue regulator or capacitor this could be a definitive way to diagnose. My original question on this forum was for general information on how to go about solving such a problem. > BTW I found an interesting general article on ESD: http://www.eib-gmbh.de/englisch/faqs/text_faqs.htm in particular Q13. > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:23 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? Wattage can be calculated using the equation W=VI=I2R Therefore if the horn is drawing ten amps@12V that is 120Watts DC That is just too much current for the average bike horn. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Lloyd Sent: June 22, 2011 9:33 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? David, I think that you meant what size "Resister" do I put in series with the horn to reduce the current (amps). It is probably going to be a low value 1 - 3 ohms and it will have to be large in "watt" rating. 10 or more watts, depending on how long you beep the horn. Also, keep in mind that you are trying to make a tuned horn work on less power, under 10 amps, than the current it was designed. So, by cutting back the "power" to the horn, it will probably sound "weird"; maybe not even presentable as a bike horn. Try it on the "bench" first before going to the trouble of mounting it to the bike, etc. and discovering then, that it will not do what you wanted it to do. If you bike's wiring can handle say 20 amp loads with a short duty cycle, I would upgrade the fuse to i.e. 20 amps and not modify the horn using a resister. But, it is critical that you know that the factory wiring can handle this level of current without frying. Dave ___________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David" Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:51 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? > > I bought an aftermarket horn for my wife's motorcycle that blows 10 amp > fuses when you use it. Can I put a capacitor in front of it to keep the > fuse from blowing? How do I calculate the size of cap to use? > > Thanks, > David > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:39 PM PST US From: Dennis Golden Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: will a cap help here, horn that uses lots of amps? On 06/22/2011 05:51 PM, David wrote: > > I bought an aftermarket horn for my wife's motorcycle that blows 10 amp > fuses when you use it. Can I put a capacitor in front of it to keep the > fuse from blowing? How do I calculate the size of cap to use? A capacitor will not help. Nether will a resistor. When I installed a Stebel Nautilus on my Ulysses, I put a relay where the original horn was connected and added a direct (from the battery) wire with an inline 20A fuse through the relay to the horn. These horns are designed to get someones attention and that requires some current. Anything that deprives the horn of the necessary current will restrict the horn from performing as it was designed. do not archive Dennis > Thanks, > David -- Dennis Golden Golden Consulting Services, Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.