Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:12 AM - Circuit breaker testing (JOHN TIPTON)
2. 07:00 AM - Re: max current through sub-d pins (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:09 AM - Re: Circuit breaker testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:35 AM - Re: l5t06e 1ipfv (rvtach)
5. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv (Keith Ward)
6. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv (Dj Merrill)
7. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv (Kelly McMullen)
8. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv (Dj Merrill)
9. 10:19 AM - P-Mag Switch(s) (stickandrudder1@comcast.net)
10. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 11:52 AM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 12:13 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 12:24 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (B Tomm)
14. 12:32 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Paul Zimmer)
15. 12:48 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Paul Zimmer)
16. 12:51 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Paul Zimmer)
17. 01:18 PM - Re: max current through sub-d pins (jayb)
18. 01:20 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Peter Pengilly)
19. 06:15 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 08:00 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Paul Zimmer)
21. 09:42 PM - Re: P-Mag Switch(s) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 11:07 PM - Re: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv (David)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Circuit breaker testing |
Hi Guys
How do you bench test a circuit breaker ?
Regards
John
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: max current through sub-d pins |
At 10:11 PM 7/23/2011, you wrote:
>
>I know I've seen this somewhere in the past... Can anyone point me
>to a doc that describes the max current allowed through a single sub-d pin?
A single 20AWG machined d-sub pin in relatively
benign environments (not hot) is good for 7A.
How much are you wanting to run? Is it continuos
or intermittent duty? If you need a LOT of current
capability through a harness terminated with a d-sub,
you can parallel pins. Check out these conversations on the
List some years ago.
http://tinyurl.com/3wldv5g
Also this excerpt from another conversation.
>I could use some simple guidance here - assuming one
correctly applied pin
>on both sides of the connector, how much current can I safely
pass through
>one of them before needing to split the power connection between two
>pins? or Three? or Four?
For the target project, I derated D-sub pins to 4A. For larger
current requirements, I parallel whatever is necessary to keep
individual pin loading to 4A or less. To parallel two pins,
you need to swamp out the small variation in resistance from
pin to pin. It's seldom satisfactory, for example, to simply
short an array of pins together at the back of the connector
and expect current through the array to distribute evenly
across the array.
Taking a cue from past tasks where I needed to parallel multiple
transistors in a power control circuit (we added small value ballast
resistors in series with the emitter lead of each transistor) I
reasoned that we can short all the pins together at the connector
on one half (in this case the etched circuit board side). For
the mating connector, each pin gets a 22AWG wire about 10"
long. The array of wires is joined to a common butt-splice.
The other side of the butt splice carries on with the size
of wire appropriate for the circuit's total current.
The approximately 10 milliohms of wire resistance offered by
each pigtail has the same effect as the ballast resistors
in an array of paralleled transistors. Tiny variations in
resistance from pin-to-pin a insignificant compared to the
value of the ballast resistance.
See: http://tinyurl.com/3flxqcc
Here I suggested a 3A de-rating but I believe we were
talking about stuff that was tested hot . . . like
80C. I think I derated those target pins to 2A. I seem
to recall 7 pins in the 20A array of pins. These are
continuos duty considerations too. The pin can carry
intermittent currents on the order of 2x the continuous
rating.
> Why not keep power on good ole AMP/Molex
>connectors?
The D-sub connector is compact. You can get very high
quality gold plated pins for them. They're easily worked
with low cost tools . . . even if you use the machined
pins. The AMP Mate-n-Lock and Molex connectors don't
come in right angle PC mount versions. Their contact
density is much lower than the D-sub. I don't think you
can get them in greater numbers than 12 contacts per
plug/socket.
If you're building a product where you'd like to mix
high current (10A+) wires in with small signal wires,
the AMP/MOLEX solutions will either have you paralleling
conductors in the small pins -OR- having to upsize the
connector just because you have one or two wires out
of the total that carry heavy current.
The D-sub solution offers a fair selection of connector
sizes (9, 15, 25, 37, 50) and a large range of connector
configurations that let you deal seamlessly with
panel mount, ecb mount and cable mounted versions.
You can easily intermix micro-amp signal and control
with some rather hefty power wiring with a single
technology.
There are some new circular connectors from AMP that
use the same pins as the D-sub . . . these too might
be considered for similar treatment . . . I'm not
sure if AMP offers any ECB mount versions yet . . . and
it's unlikely that there will ever be a right-angle
ECB version.
All things considered, in spite of the ugly hole you
have to cut to mount a D-sub, the availability of
low cost, high quality pins and inexpensive tooling
combine to make them attractive for a broad
range of applications.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit breaker testing |
At 03:10 AM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
><jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
>
>Hi Guys
>
>How do you bench test a circuit breaker ?
Hook it up with a power supply (battery?) and
a load equal to 2x the breaker's rating. it should
trip in no more than 15 seconds.
Thermal breakers are not tightly calibrated devices.
See:
http://tinyurl.com/42syhqb
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: l5t06e 1ipfv |
I think my Hotmail address book is on their server because when I log into my email
account from another computer I can access it to send emails.
Jim
--------
Jim McChesney
Tucson, AZ
RV-7A Finishing Kit
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347549#347549
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: l5t06e 1ipfv |
Jim,
Generally what happens is that a virus is picked up from clicking on a bogus link
attached to an email. The virus attacks your computer's (not hotmails) address
book and begins sending messages to everyone of your contacts on your behalf.
To fix you need to do four things:
1. Run a top notch anti-virus program and do a full scan of your computer.
2. Change all your email account passwords.
3. Send a blanket message to everyone in your address book letting them know the
issue will be resolved within the week.
4. Change your Internet provider password (probably not necessary, but it can't
hurt)
Bonus- buy a Mac and never worry about viruses again.
Keith
On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:32 AM, "rvtach" <rvtach@msn.com> wrote:
>
> I think my Hotmail address book is on their server because when I log into my
email account from another computer I can access it to send emails.
>
> Jim
>
> --------
> Jim McChesney
> Tucson, AZ
> RV-7A Finishing Kit
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347549#347549
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: l5t06e 1ipfv |
On 7/24/2011 11:04 AM, Keith Ward wrote:
> Bonus- buy a Mac and never worry about viruses again.
>
Or, the free option, download a Linux distro and install it on
your PC... :-)
http://centos.org is my favorite.
-Dj
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: l5t06e 1ipfv |
Just another myth. NO OS is totally immune from viruses. The degree they
get attacked depends on how popular they are.
On 7/24/2011 8:33 AM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> On 7/24/2011 11:04 AM, Keith Ward wrote:
>> Bonus- buy a Mac and never worry about viruses again.
>>
>
> Or, the free option, download a Linux distro and install it on
> your PC... :-)
>
> http://centos.org is my favorite.
>
> -Dj
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: l5t06e 1ipfv |
On 7/24/2011 11:43 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> <kellym@aviating.com>
>
> Just another myth. NO OS is totally immune from viruses. The degree
> they get attacked depends on how popular they are.
... and also how vulnerable they are. Some OSes are simply less secure
than others, but you are correct that none are immune.
-Dj
Message 9
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I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the
Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure
out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick
with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off
until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to
start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the
engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can
figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the
P-MAG's P-Lead.
What have others done?
Thanks in advance.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: l5t06e 1ipfv |
At 09:32 AM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
>
>I think my Hotmail address book is on their server because when I
>log into my email account from another computer I can access it to send emails.
Aha! Good to hear.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: P-Mag Switch(s) |
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
>I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to
>verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight
>run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG
>with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG
>manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine
>has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the
>engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while
>the engine is running.
>
>I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The
>only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a
>second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead.
Emacs!
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
>What have others done?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - <http://www.avg.com>www.avg.com
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: P-Mag Switch(s) |
>The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until
>the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to
>start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and
>on while the engine is running.
Hmmm . . . I'm a bit surprised at this statement in
the P-Mag manual. P-Mag generates its own operating
power internally. The prohibition for powering down
an E-Mag was to avoid unpredictable behaviors if
the microprocessor were un-powered and then re-powered
while the engine was running.
The intuitive narration suggests that since the
internal and external power sources are automatic
switched back-ups for each other, removal of battery
power after the engine is running should be a seamless
event.
If were a concern with the P-Mag, there would also
be a note suggesting that if battery power fails
at any time in flight, the pilot should avoid allowing
it to spontaneously restore. I'll email Brad and double
check on this. Need to update with those guys anyhow.
It's been too long.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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It appears to me the question is about P-mags, but Bob's answer is for the
E-mags. The difference may be suttle but the operation is not (in my
opinion). The Emagair website as a FAQ section. In it, it describes how to
test that the P-mag is generating it's own power. It suggests pullling the
P-mag breaker while running only on the Pmag to see if the engine keeps
running etc. This is contrary to what the original poster wrote about
Emagair's recommendation.
FWIW, I don't believe Emagair is selling the E-mag version anymore. P-mag
is the way to go. Perhaps the documentation needs to be updated?
Bevan
Waiting for my P-mags to arrive in the mail. :)
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that
the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't
figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and
the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to
the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use
the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off
and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I
can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to
control the P-MAG's P-Lead.
Emacs!
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
What have others done?
Thanks in advance.
AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.matronics.com
- List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/24/11
Bob . . .
Message 14
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Agreed. However it's my understanding (based on what I've read; and so maybe
accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and
off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG,
and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the
power off you can't get there with one switch.
Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question.
Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to
turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead),
and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully
with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that
the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't
figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and
the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to
the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use
the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off
and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I
can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to
control the P-MAG's P-Lead.
Emacs!
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
What have others done?
Thanks in advance.
AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.matronics.com
- List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/24/11
Bob . . .
Message 15
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Meant P-MAG in the post below.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Zimmer
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
Agreed. However it's my understanding (based on what I've read; and so maybe
accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and
off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG,
and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the
power off you can't get there with one switch.
Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question.
Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to
turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead),
and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully
with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that
the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't
figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and
the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to
the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use
the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off
and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I
can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to
control the P-MAG's P-Lead.
Emacs!
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
What have others done?
Thanks in advance.
AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.matronics.com
- List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/24/11
Bob . . .
Message 16
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I read the suggestion about pulling the P-MAG breaker too. So the
implication is it's OK to pull external power from the P-MAG once it's
generating its own power. Assuming this is true, my question about how to
tell if my Slick is working, becomes a moot point.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Tomm
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
It appears to me the question is about P-mags, but Bob's answer is for the
E-mags. The difference may be suttle but the operation is not (in my
opinion). The Emagair website as a FAQ section. In it, it describes how to
test that the P-mag is generating it's own power. It suggests pullling the
P-mag breaker while running only on the Pmag to see if the engine keeps
running etc. This is contrary to what the original poster wrote about
Emagair's recommendation.
FWIW, I don't believe Emagair is selling the E-mag version anymore. P-mag
is the way to go. Perhaps the documentation needs to be updated?
Bevan
Waiting for my P-mags to arrive in the mail. :)
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that
the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't
figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and
the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to
the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use
the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off
and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I
can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to
control the P-MAG's P-Lead.
Emacs!
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
What have others done?
Thanks in advance.
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07/24/11
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: max current through sub-d pins |
Nothing fancy here... Just using D-Subs provided by Stein. I don't recall ever
seeing a datasheet on those parts.
Regards,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347589#347589
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| Subject: | Re: P-Mag Switch(s) |
Message 19
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At 02:43 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
>Meant P-MAG in the post below.
>
>
>----------
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Zimmer
>Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
>
>Agreed. However it's my understanding (based on what I've read; and
>so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the
>standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when
>operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the
>P-Lead without also turning the power off you can't get there with one switch.
>
>Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question.
>
>Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be
>able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding
>the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine
>remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed.
Check the wiring for Z-13/8 . . . while the E-mag Air ignition
is labeled E-mag, the only difference between p and e-mags is
that removing DC power from the e-version will cause it
to shut down. However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown,
you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the
electronics. In other words, as far as your pre-flight ignition
tests go, you can accomplish ignition integrity tests during
run up whether you have an e-mag or p-mag installed.
The question becomes how to test the internal power generation
system of a p-mag. If the builder uses breakers on the panel
(a la Lightspeed) or an additional switch in the power path,
then you can do it with a high degree of convenience . . .
I spent several hours in Emag's shops a few years ago. Brad
and I discussed the single 2-10, single switch, battery-bus
fed architecture of Z-13/8.
Brad advised me that the reliability of this feature is so
high that one could do it periodically, like every oil change
or plug cleaning task. But you do need to pull the battery bus fuse,
open the battery bus breaker, or ADD some power interruption
feature that can be exercised with the engine running. This could
be a spring-loaded, normally-closed toggle switch . . . perhaps
out of sight even but accessible from the cockpit.
In any case, I do recommend that the e or p-mag be powered from
the battery bus . . . turning of the master should have no
effect on things needed to keep the engine running.
I've had some builders worry about that 'inaccessible fuse'
on the battery bus. The p-mag supplies 100% of internal power
needs above 2000 rpm. An e-mag draws only 0.8 amps max at
cruise.
Emacs!
So a 5A feeder off the battery is exceedingly robust. If you
pop that fuse, something is so badly wrong that the ability
to replace the fuse or reset a breaker has about 1 chance in
a thousand of restoring usefulness of that ignition system.
If you routinely start with the magneto off that power path
gets tested at each engine start. If you have dual p-mags, then
develop a habit of starting on alternate ignition systems.
The mag-drop thing is another set of simple ideas. The reasons
that you see a drop in engine RPM when killing one mag are
these: Cylinders in an aircraft engine are pretty big in
diameter. The compressed mixture is normally lit off on both
sides of a cylinder by the upper and lower plugs. At low manifold
(and lower cylinder pressures, the flame front across the top
of the cylinder is significantly slower than at full power (high)
pressures.
When you turn off one ignition source, the flame front starting
at the sparked plug has to travel all the way across the cylinder.
Normally, two flame fronts meet in the middle in half the time.
Single ignition has the net effect of RETARDING the timing of
the ignition and the engine slows. The actual amount of 'mag drop'
is not terribly significant . . . but it's useful to note that
they are identical. This verifies that the timing for the two
mags agree with each other. It has no other significance with
respect to ignition integrity or reliability.
Electronic ignitions are automatically advanced in response
to manifold pressures and engine rpm. When two electronic
ignitions are installed, you may not observe any 'mag drop'
when killing one of the two systems. When you have one electronic
and one mag, you may see very little no drop when the mag
ignition is shut off and the usually expected 'mag drop' when
the electronic ignition is shut off. This is because they
are never timed together except during full power ops. All
other times the mag lags the electronic ignition by a
significant interval of crank rotation.
But Z-13/8 is correct as shown for either Emag product.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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Mystery solved. I've been basing my P-Mag switch on Z-13/8K. Based on
your
statement below "However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown, you
can
DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the electronics.",
which I
knew to be inaccurate insofar as the schematic I was looking at was
concerned, I decided to see if I was looking at Z-13/8Q, and alas I
wasn't.
Schematic Z-13/8Q changed the configuration of the 2-10, and in this
configuration, it will do what is needed.
Thanks for your help and for the other explanations below.
Paul
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 02:43 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
Meant P-MAG in the post below.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Zimmer
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
Agreed. However it=12s my understanding (based on what I=12ve read; and
so maybe
accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on
and
off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a
PMAG,
and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the
power off you can=12t get there with one switch.
Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question.
Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able
to
turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the
P-Lead),
and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running
(hopefully
with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed.
Check the wiring for Z-13/8 . . . while the E-mag Air ignition
is labeled E-mag, the only difference between p and e-mags is
that removing DC power from the e-version will cause it
to shut down. However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown,
you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the
electronics. In other words, as far as your pre-flight ignition
tests go, you can accomplish ignition integrity tests during
run up whether you have an e-mag or p-mag installed.
The question becomes how to test the internal power generation
system of a p-mag. If the builder uses breakers on the panel
(a la Lightspeed) or an additional switch in the power path,
then you can do it with a high degree of convenience . . .
I spent several hours in Emag's shops a few years ago. Brad
and I discussed the single 2-10, single switch, battery-bus
fed architecture of Z-13/8.
Brad advised me that the reliability of this feature is so
high that one could do it periodically, like every oil change
or plug cleaning task. But you do need to pull the battery bus fuse,
open the battery bus breaker, or ADD some power interruption
feature that can be exercised with the engine running. This could
be a spring-loaded, normally-closed toggle switch . . . perhaps
out of sight even but accessible from the cockpit.
In any case, I do recommend that the e or p-mag be powered from
the battery bus . . . turning of the master should have no
effect on things needed to keep the engine running.
I've had some builders worry about that 'inaccessible fuse'
on the battery bus. The p-mag supplies 100% of internal power
needs above 2000 rpm. An e-mag draws only 0.8 amps max at
cruise.
Emacs!
So a 5A feeder off the battery is exceedingly robust. If you
pop that fuse, something is so badly wrong that the ability
to replace the fuse or reset a breaker has about 1 chance in
a thousand of restoring usefulness of that ignition system.
If you routinely start with the magneto off that power path
gets tested at each engine start. If you have dual p-mags, then
develop a habit of starting on alternate ignition systems.
The mag-drop thing is another set of simple ideas. The reasons
that you see a drop in engine RPM when killing one mag are
these: Cylinders in an aircraft engine are pretty big in
diameter. The compressed mixture is normally lit off on both
sides of a cylinder by the upper and lower plugs. At low manifold
(and lower cylinder pressures, the flame front across the top
of the cylinder is significantly slower than at full power (high)
pressures.
When you turn off one ignition source, the flame front starting
at the sparked plug has to travel all the way across the cylinder.
Normally, two flame fronts meet in the middle in half the time.
Single ignition has the net effect of RETARDING the timing of
the ignition and the engine slows. The actual amount of 'mag drop'
is not terribly significant . . . but it's useful to note that
they are identical. This verifies that the timing for the two
mags agree with each other. It has no other significance with
respect to ignition integrity or reliability.
Electronic ignitions are automatically advanced in response
to manifold pressures and engine rpm. When two electronic
ignitions are installed, you may not observe any 'mag drop'
when killing one of the two systems. When you have one electronic
and one mag, you may see very little no drop when the mag
ignition is shut off and the usually expected 'mag drop' when
the electronic ignition is shut off. This is because they
are never timed together except during full power ops. All
other times the mag lags the electronic ignition by a
significant interval of crank rotation.
But Z-13/8 is correct as shown for either Emag product.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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At 09:56 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
>Mystery solved. I've been basing my P-Mag switch on Z-13/8K. Based
>on your statement below "However, when wired with the 2-10 switch
>as shown, you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to
>the electronics.", which I knew to be inaccurate insofar as the
>schematic I was looking at was concerned, I decided to see if I was
>looking at Z-13/8Q, and alas I wasn't. Schematic Z-13/8Q changed
>the configuration of the 2-10, and in this configuration, it will do
>what is needed.
>
>Thanks for your help and for the other explanations below.
Yup, it do make a difference. Z-13/8K was
the drawing that started our discussions with
Brad and friends some years ago . . . and
prompted the update.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: l5t06e 1ipfv |
I'm a UNIX head from way, way back (early 80's). Playing right now
with Ubuntu and Suse distributions, among others. Ubuntu seems to hold
up the best.
David M.
>
> On 7/24/2011 11:04 AM, Keith Ward wrote:
>> Bonus- buy a Mac and never worry about viruses again.
>>
>
> Or, the free option, download a Linux distro and install it on
> your PC... :-)
>
> http://centos.org is my favorite.
>
> -Dj
>
>
--
If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid
of Soros.
...democracy and a republic can function only in a firm partnership with morality
and religion. -- John Adams. Indeed. Same should be said for ANY type of
gubmnt
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