---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/08/11: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:10 AM - Re: Pressure transducer for airspeed (David) 2. 08:37 AM - Re: De-sulfating Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: De-sulfating Question (David Lloyd) 4. 04:23 PM - Antenna ground plane and nearby cables (Scott B.) 5. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: De-sulfating Question (Ken) 6. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: De-sulfating Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: De-sulfating Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:02 AM PST US From: David Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pressure transducer for airspeed I use the AMD 494/495. Freescale also has some newer models that are even better, which I'm using for MAP, etc. David M. Paul McAllister wrote: > Hi All, > > Could some offer a recommendation for a suitable pressure transducer > to measure airspeed. The intended use is to read is with an ADC / Pic > Micro along with a few other parameters so I can automate my cowl > opening / closing, and perhaps a few other functions such as gear up > warning. > > Thanks, Paul > * > > > * -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ...democracy and a republic can function only in a firm partnership with morality and religion. -- John Adams. Indeed. Same should be said for ANY type of gubmnt ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: De-sulfating Question > >Are you familiar with some of the companies touting their battery >de-sulfaters? Is this process a hoax, or what is the story behind >these things? I don't find any questions or answers in the >archives, but this enquiring mind wants to know. My earlier reply to this was somewhat hurried . . . I think I was on my way out the door. The art, science and alchemy of battery restoration is as old as the battery itself. I recall seeing ads in the back of Popular Mechanics when I was a kid advertising various pills, potions and notions that would "make your battery last 10x longer" or "bring new life to a dead battery." When somebody asked why folks who know more about batteries than anybody (the manufacturers) didn't offer such products, the standard saw was, "Well . . . those guys just want to sell more batteries . . . so they design-in a certain service life. It just would not do to have an off-the-shelf battery routinely deliver 10 years of service. That would put them out of the battery business." Of course, hundreds of honorable suppliers of goods and services put that myth to rest by being the very best at what they knew how to do with every intention of capturing the majority of market share. It doesn't compute that a super-whippy manufacturer of batteries doesn't go for the gold. Which brings up another thought: If you do have the ultimate success in any process or product, then to protect your $millions$ in profits, you spend some portion of those $millions$ to patent and then hire lawyers to defend those patents. So, upon getting the first whiff of the odor of snake oil one of the first places to go look is at freepatentsoline.com or some similar service. I've found several devices of one flavor or another which propose to recover a dead battery, make good batteries last longer, etc. Of course, being awarded a patent only says your idea is different from all others similarly recorded in the patent office . . . in no way is it an endorsement of the idea's functionality. As best I can determine, de-sulfaters are the latest pass at parting the uneducated consumer from his/her money. But that doesn't keep them from being very popular topics on websites and Internet forums. Nearly all sources will yield some story about having "recovered" a trashed battery. But to date, I've see NO data that compares the recovered battery with performance of the new battery in terms of energy stored. Given that batteries in our airplanes are picked, maintained and replaced to achieve certain energy storage design goals, the idea of stroking an abused or otherwise poor performing battery with the idea that I'm going to fly it some more . . . . well, you get the picture. Now, if this is a battery for your bass boat or riding lawn mower, feel free to experiment to your own satisfaction . . . and do let us know what, if anything, you discover. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:48 AM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: De-sulfating Question I am of the mind that when a acid chemical battery de-sulfates, its lead plate compound changes chemistry, and sloughs off to the cell floor. Once in this condition or state, it is non-reversible. The only way that I know to maintain a wet chemical acid battery for it's longest life is to never let it get to the "state" where the lead plates essentially decompose; sulfates. Thus, the need to keep it charged always above a certain level. Mostly in the dark past, we attach trickle charges and the like to the battery and then walk away from it and forget to time the charging period. Thus, it over-charges soon and that causes life shorting states also. Now, comes along the small battery charges called "Maintainers". Bob and others have spoken of these chargers many times. They are semi-smart in that they will charge like a standard trickle charger to some set voltage potential and then, stop the charge and "float" a voltage potential at some set level, usually a tad under the trickle stop point. And, there they will happily maintain that float voltage on the battery forever. Assuming that no cell in the battery is corrupted, this method probably will give you max life from a battery. Personally, after every flight, I connect a maintainer to the battery and it stays there until the next flight. My Gill and Concord batteries seem to last forever..... ....2 cents of comment... Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 8:32 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: De-sulfating Question Are you familiar with some of the companies touting their battery de-sulfaters? Is this process a hoax, or what is the story behind these things? I don't find any questions or answers in the archives, but this enquiring mind wants to know. My earlier reply to this was somewhat hurried . . . I think I was on my way out the door. The art, science and alchemy of battery restoration is as old as the battery itself. I recall seeing ads in the back of Popular Mechanics when I was a kid advertising various pills, potions and notions that would "make your battery last 10x longer" or "bring new life to a dead battery." When somebody asked why folks who know more about batteries than anybody (the manufacturers) didn't offer such products, the standard saw was, "Well . . . those guys just want to sell more batteries . . . so they design-in a certain service life. It just would not do to have an off-the-shelf battery routinely deliver 10 years of service. That would put them out of the battery business." Of course, hundreds of honorable suppliers of goods and services put that myth to rest by being the very best at what they knew how to do with every intention of capturing the majority of market share. It doesn't compute that a super-whippy manufacturer of batteries doesn't go for the gold. Which brings up another thought: If you do have the ultimate success in any process or product, then to protect your $millions$ in profits, you spend some portion of those $millions$ to patent and then hire lawyers to defend those patents. So, upon getting the first whiff of the odor of snake oil one of the first places to go look is at freepatentsoline.com or some similar service. I've found several devices of one flavor or another which propose to recover a dead battery, make good batteries last longer, etc. Of course, being awarded a patent only says your idea is different from all others similarly recorded in the patent office . . . in no way is it an endorsement of the idea's functionality. As best I can determine, de-sulfaters are the latest pass at parting the uneducated consumer from his/her money. But that doesn't keep them from being very popular topics on websites and Internet forums. Nearly all sources will yield some story about having "recovered" a trashed battery. But to date, I've see NO data that compares the recovered battery with performance of the new battery in terms of energy stored. Given that batteries in our airplanes are picked, maintained and replaced to achieve certain energy storage design goals, the idea of stroking an abused or otherwise poor performing battery with the idea that I'm going to fly it some more . . . . well, you get the picture. Now, if this is a battery for your bass boat or riding lawn mower, feel free to experiment to your own satisfaction . . . and do let us know what, if anything, you discover. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:15 PM PST US From: "Scott B." Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna ground plane and nearby cables I have a composite aircraft (Glastar) with batteries in tailcone. #2 cables run to the starter and a #8 wire from the alternator run along a channel through the baggage compartment. I want to install a quarter wave antenna (and associated ground plane) right underneath all those cables. Is this a stupid thing to do? Scott ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:23 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: De-sulfating Question From my experience a desulfater might help a bit on old flooded cell tractor and generator batteries if used occasionally. However even a small desulfater seems to cause my AGM batteries to vent. I can actually hear the valve puff out gas every few minutes. Ken On 8/8/2011 11:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> Are you familiar with some of the companies touting their battery >> de-sulfaters? Is this process a hoax, or what is the story behind >> these things? I dont find any questions or answers in the archives, >> but this enquiring mind wants to know. > > My earlier reply to this was somewhat hurried . . . I think > I was on my way out the door. > > The art, science and alchemy of battery restoration > is as old as the battery itself. I recall seeing ads > in the back of Popular Mechanics when I was a kid > advertising various pills, potions and notions that > would "make your battery last 10x longer" or "bring > new life to a dead battery." > > When somebody asked why folks who know more about > batteries than anybody (the manufacturers) didn't > offer such products, the standard saw was, "Well . . . > those guys just want to sell more batteries . . . so > they design-in a certain service life. It just would > not do to have an off-the-shelf battery routinely deliver > 10 years of service. That would put them out of the battery > business." > > Of course, hundreds of honorable suppliers of goods > and services put that myth to rest by being the very > best at what they knew how to do with every intention > of capturing the majority of market share. It > doesn't compute that a super-whippy manufacturer of > batteries doesn't go for the gold. > > Which brings up another thought: If you do have > the ultimate success in any process or product, > then to protect your $millions$ in profits, you > spend some portion of those $millions$ to patent > and then hire lawyers to defend those patents. > > So, upon getting the first whiff of the odor > of snake oil one of the first places to go look > is at freepatentsoline.com or some similar > service. I've found several devices of one flavor > or another which propose to recover a dead battery, > make good batteries last longer, etc. Of course, > being awarded a patent only says your idea is > different from all others similarly recorded > in the patent office . . . in no way is it an > endorsement of the idea's functionality. > > As best I can determine, de-sulfaters are the > latest pass at parting the uneducated consumer > from his/her money. But that doesn't keep them > from being very popular topics on websites and > Internet forums. Nearly all sources will yield > some story about having "recovered" a trashed > battery. > > But to date, I've see NO data that compares > the recovered battery with performance of the > new battery in terms of energy stored. Given > that batteries in our airplanes are picked, > maintained and replaced to achieve certain energy > storage design goals, the idea of stroking an > abused or otherwise poor performing battery > with the idea that I'm going to fly it some more > . . . . well, you get the picture. > > Now, if this is a battery for your bass boat > or riding lawn mower, feel free to experiment > to your own satisfaction . . . and do let > us know what, if anything, you discover. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: De-sulfating Question At 12:07 PM 8/8/2011, you wrote: I am of the mind that when a acid chemical battery de-sulfates, its lead plate compound changes chemistry, and sloughs off to the cell floor. Once in this condition or state, it is non-reversible. The only way that I know to maintain a wet chemical acid battery for it's longest life is to never let it get to the "state" where the lead plates essentially decompose; sulfates. Thus, the need to keep it charged always above a certain level. Another claim made by some battery rejuvenation processes is based on idea that large crystals of sulfate (low surface area) can be broken up by hitting the crystals with pulses of RF energy (in the 5 MHz range as I recall). Mostly in the dark past, we attach trickle charges and the like to the battery and then walk away from it and forget to time the charging period. Thus, it over-charges soon and that causes life shorting states also. That worked with some success on wet batteries where water lost to disassociation can be replaced. Now, comes along the small battery charges called "Maintainers". Bob and others have spoken of these chargers many times. They are semi-smart in that they will charge like a standard trickle charger to some set voltage potential and then, stop the charge and "float" a voltage potential at some set level, usually a tad under the trickle stop point. And, there they will happily maintain that float voltage on the battery forever. Assuming that no cell in the battery is corrupted, this method probably will give you max life from a battery. While I was still full time at HBC, I had an array of SVLA batteries that I used for sundry instrumentation tasks. 2Ah up to 32 Ah devices. ALL were happily maintained in parallel on one maintainer. My 32 Ah beast still tested at over 25 Ah for a 5A load when I scrapped it. It was over ten years old. Personally, after every flight, I connect a maintainer to the battery and it stays there until the next flight. My Gill and Concord batteries seem to last forever..... ....2 cents of comment... More than 2 cents . . . a report on a recipe for success. Another demonstrated recipe for success is the dead-battery recovery (conditioning charge) that Concorde calls out in their manuals. Do a constant current charge at 1/10C and continue to charge until the battery has been above 15.5 (or 31.0) volts for 4 hours. This is an obvious 'overcharge' condition that may recover a battery to minimum capacity for service . . . but shorten the overall life of the battery. But then, without the conditioning charge the battery is scrap anyhow. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: De-sulfating Question At 07:19 PM 8/8/2011, you wrote: > > From my experience a desulfater might help a bit on old flooded > cell tractor and generator batteries if used occasionally. However > even a small desulfater seems to cause my AGM batteries to vent. I > can actually hear the valve puff out gas every few minutes. Wow . . . if it's driving water off, that's a high energy process. I've not encountered any devices claiming to de-sulfate a battery that were anything close to those energy levels. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.