---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/14/11: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:38 AM - Re: Fw: current outstanding questions (Keith Ward) 2. 10:57 AM - Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! (jonlaury) 3. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! (Matt Dralle) 4. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! (Gerry van Dyk) 5. 01:01 PM - Re: Fw: current outstanding questions (Bill Watson) 6. 02:05 PM - Re: One Noisy Mag (Dennis Ramsey) 7. 02:29 PM - Re: Fw: current outstanding questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 02:32 PM - Re: One Noisy Mag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 03:42 PM - Re: Fw: current outstanding questions (Keith Ward) 10. 04:31 PM - Re: One Noisy Mag (rayj) 11. 07:37 PM - Re: One Noisy Mag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:35 AM PST US From: Keith Ward Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: current outstanding questions Bob, He is using the crowbar. Is there any reason that the CB should be on the panel or can it be placed out of sight? Thanks for the help! Keith On Aug 14, 2011, at 12:11 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 09:31 PM 8/13/2011, you wrote: >> >> >> > Here are a few questions from my buddy who is building an RV-10 and will be using Z13/8 for his all electric panel. He is trying to use zero or as few circuit breakers on the panel as possible. He will be using fuse blocks for the main and endurance buses, so most of the usual CBs will not be needed. >> >> Questions: >> > 1. "ALT FLD" wire protection z13/8: can that be a fuse or does it need to be a circuit breaker on the panel? > > If he is using crowbar ov protection, a CB is > called for . . . > >> > 2. Is it feasible to think someone could react fast enough on run away trim scenario to pull the circuit breaker before it ran its full course? If not - use fuse instead of CB? > > No > >> >> > 3. In z13/8, Can both shunts be hooked up to one ammeter? Would the shunt attached to the SD8 alternator indicate a load even if the aux alt switch was off? Suggestions for best way to proceed with only one ammeter? > > Put it on the SD-8 only. That's the one > most useful for shedding loads in flight. > You're never going to overload the main > alternator. > >> > 4.If your goal was to minimize as many warning lights, switches, and CBs on the panel, what would your short list be of these items to remain? Using Dynon Skyview that will be booted up prior to start-up that will have plenty of warnings to display. > > "Plenty" ought to be enough. I've been flying in TC > aircraft for over 60 years that have zero 'warnings'. > They have gages that give you the big picture and > for nearly a century, it has been quite sufficient > to let the pilot do the pilot-thing and be aware > of the big picture. > > Engines and other systems have only become more > reliable over the years while digital instrumentation > has offered us ways to raise flags, flash lights, > sound alarms and otherwise lull us to sleep in > a cockpit that makes less demands. > > If you've got an electro-whizzy with warning > features not included on a 1980 A-36 Bonanza, > I suspect that will be "plenty". > > > > Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================ > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! From: "jonlaury" Matt, I gather from your purchase of Boses and your recommendation to look at Sennheisers, that you found Light Speed's Zulus not to your liking. Care to comment? I need headsets and with the trade-in that LS will give me for my 25 yr old DC's, Zulu is attractive. Anybody else? Thanks John Do not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349397#349397 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:54 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! At 10:54 AM 8/14/2011 Sunday, you wrote: > >Matt, >I gather from your purchase of Boses and your recommendation to look at Sennheisers, that you found Light Speed's Zulus not to your liking. Care to comment? > I need headsets and with the trade-in that LS will give me for my 25 yr old DC's, Zulu is attractive. > >Anybody else? > >Thanks >John Hi John, Don't get me wrong; I really, really like the Bose X and now A20 headsets. I am a stickler for audio performance and quality and the Bose headsets have delivered. Coupled with a PM3000 intercom and a high-end automobile entertainment system, the quality of experience is unlike anything you've ever heard in an airplane before. I had the Bose X headsets in the first RV-8 and really liked them. For the new RV-8, I've got the newer A20 models. While I haven't flown with the A20's yet, in bench top testing, they seem even better than the X's in terms of noise cancelling and audio performance. My only beef's with the new A20's are the lack of the Stereo Bluetooth profiles (that's stupid), and the fact that they only provide 3' of cable with the bulkhead in line power jacks (even stupider). 3' is ridiculous for a cut to fit installation. I heard back from Bose Support today. Here's what "Barry" from Bose had to say about the situation: "I'm sorry, the install kit only comes with a 3 foot cable. Longer cables are not available." Well, great. In summary, realistically, I guess for a future purchase I wouldn't let the completely inadequate cable lengths deter me from purchasing the A20's again. I noticed that it appears that the Sennheisers do NOT have an in line power option - you have to use batteries. As far as I'm concerned, that's a show stopper. Frankly, a bigger show stopper than the lack of stereo Bluetooth and bulkhead cable length issues with the Bose. I haven't listed to the Zulu's, so I can't speak directly to their physical or aural quality. But the fact is that if Zulu could charge $1000 for a set of headphones, they would. Enough said. Matt's $.02 - Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:30 AM PST US From: "Gerry van Dyk" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! John, I checked out all the main players at Oshkosh, the first one I put on was the Beyerdynamic HS-800 so that one stuck out to me. They also offer discounts for old headsets and are every bit as comfortable as the Zulu, Bose and Sennheiser models. http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/hah/headphones-and-headsets/gener al-aviation-pilots.html Perhaps one may be better than the others among the top-line makes, but you'd be splitting hairs between them in my opinion. Gerry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonlaury Sent: August 14, 2011 11:54 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long! Matt, I gather from your purchase of Boses and your recommendation to look at Sennheisers, that you found Light Speed's Zulus not to your liking. Care to comment? I need headsets and with the trade-in that LS will give me for my 25 yr old DC's, Zulu is attractive. Anybody else? Thanks John Do not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349397#349397 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:31 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: current outstanding questions On 8/13/2011 10:31 PM, Keith Ward wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Keith Ward > > >> Here are a few questions from my buddy who is building an RV-10 and will be using Z13/8 for his all electric panel. He is trying to use zero or as few circuit breakers on the panel as possible. He will be using fuse blocks for the main and endurance buses, so most of the usual CBs will not be needed. I am trying to do the same thing in my RV10 with a Z14. FWIW, below is what I did... >> Questions: >> 1. "ALT FLD" wire protection z13/8: can that be a fuse or does it need to be a circuit breaker on the panel? I have 2 for my 2 voltage regulators - req'd per Bob. >> 2. Is it feasible to think someone could react fast enough on run away trim scenario to pull the circuit breaker before it ran its full course? If not - use fuse instead of CB? I opted for the Safety Trim product which does 2 things; 1) limits trim activation to 3 seconds per switch actuation, 2) it includes a 3 position locking switch that offers Trim on, Trim off, and Trim reverse >> 3. In z13/8, Can both shunts be hooked up to one ammeter? Would the shunt attached to the SD8 alternator indicate a load even if the aux alt switch was off? Suggestions for best way to proceed with only one ammeter? >> 4.If your goal was to minimize as many warning lights, switches, and CBs on the panel, what would your short list be of these items to remain? Using Dynon Skyview that will be booted up prior to start-up that will have plenty of warnings to display. I have 4 CBs; 2 for volt regulators, 1 for the AP (as an emergency off), and 1 for the flaps (I was imagining a scenario where flap actuation at high speeds (why?) might blow a fuse and how I'd like to be able to reset it (flaps not absolutely required). Next to the CBs I have the Safety Trim switch and a switch for ADI battery backup. Mounted the fuse block on right hand side panel and had Flightline interiors put a cutout in the panel. A transparent panel will be velcro'd over the panel so it can be easily accessed. Good luck to your friend, Bill "ready to fly" Watson > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One Noisy Mag From: Dennis Ramsey Bob, should all aircraft have these magneto filters? What is the criteria and what is the recommended choice? On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> > > At 09:10 AM 8/12/2011, you wrote: > > This past week I decided to tackle some radio noise in my '49 Aeronca > Champ. Although I can transmit just fine (Narco Comm 111) there was alwa ys > some background ignition noise when receiving (you need to be about only 15 > miles away to hear an ATIS clearly). But when you switch over to just th e > right mag (Bendix mags) the noise goes away. The noise is ignition noise , > it varies directly with the rpm, and I believe it's radiated noise as it > varies with the radio volume control. > > good point > > If you disconnect the P lead from the left mag's filter (Lone Star > Aviation=92s Magneto filters) the noise goes away completely and the radi o is > perfect. > > If I read this experiment correctly, the left mag filter is still > wired to the p-connection on the mag itself . . . but the > wire going to the magneto switch is disconnected from the > other end? > > The P leads were shielded wire, probably 16 gauge, and the shields were > grounded to the mag cases. Checking the mag switch (AAF A-7 type) I foun d > that the shields were also grounded at the switch. "Aha..." says I. > "exactly what Bob said never to do." > > Not so much a problem for noise. But it provides a second > ground path between crankcase and airframe that parallels > all other grounds . . . there is a potential for burning your > p-lead wire as described in the 'Connection. > > > So I reached in with a pair of side cutters and cut the connections to th e > shields. Rolled her back outside, started her up and... no change - stil l a > noisy left mag. > > So this experiment has the shielded wire grounded > a the magneto (probably to the filter mounting screw) > at one end and to the GRD terminal of the magneto > switch at the other end? > > Deciding that the P lead itself must be chafed or the shielding was open > somewhere I removed both leads and made up two new ones from 18 gauge > shielded wire, and carefully added a second wire (not just a pigtail) to > connect the shielding to the mag cases on the respective mags. > > Okay > > Installed them last night, rolled her back outside and... no change! Sam e > quiet right mag/noisy left mag. I couldn't see it being the switch itsel f > but even so I swapped the leads on the switch and the noise followed the > lead, so it's not the switch. The only difference I can come up with > between the mags is the left mag has the impulse coupling on it (re-read > your article about mag switches in the EAA magazine, Bob. Lots of good i nfo > there - thanks) but that should have anything at all to do with it. > > Good deduction > > I'm stumped. Should I perhaps use heavier wire for the P leads, or is th is > an actual mag problem? > > No, actual size of the wires is unimportant. > 24AWG would 'function'. The general rule of thumb > for operational wires (not instrumentation) under > the cowl is 20AWG or heavier . . . for mechanical > robustness. > > What we may be witnessing is the innate perversity > of shielded wires . . . at least in the eyes of > many builders. Shielding is 99.9% effective in > breaking the electro-static coupling mode and about > 1% effective in breaking a radiated coupling mode > depending on the frequencies involved. > > EXCEPTION: Plug wires with shields connected to > ground at both ends behave more like transmission > lines . . . like your coax from antenna to radio. > In this case, there is considerable attenuation > of the electro-static coupling of a fast-rise high- > voltage spark pulse. Further, they break the > wire's ability to be an efficient antenna. Modern > plug wires will have resistance wire as the center > conductor which has little effect on spark energy > but really whacks the wire's performance as an antenna. > This is the ONE place where shielding is indicated for > both coupling modes . . . if you put an effective > RFI filter on a plug wire, the plug wouldn't fire! > The shields behave more as an 'enclosure' since the > wires are short and the shields grounded a very > low-impedance ground (crankcase). > > The filters on both p-leads that break the radiated > coupling mode before the trash gets out onto the p- > leads. So if your noise goes away when the engine is > run without a p-lead connected to the filter . . . > then a reasonable deduction is that the filter is not > doing its job. > > The fact that noise goes away with a p-lead > disconnected also says your plug wires are good. > > I've never personally seen a filter go bad but > they're a spares item in most inventories so it > must happen now and then. Try swapping the filters > between mags . . . If this makes a difference as > to which mag is noisy, you might want to replace > both. One tired ol' filter going t-u may be a > portent of things to come for the other one as > well. > > Good detective work! > > > Bob . . . > > =====**=================== ===========**= /www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =====**=================== ===========**= =====**=================== ===========**= com/contribution> =====**=================== ===========**= > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: current outstanding questions At 11:34 AM 8/14/2011, you wrote: > >Bob, > >He is using the crowbar. Is there any reason that the CB should be >on the panel or can it be placed out of sight? Depends on whether or not he wants the popped CB to be the annunciating feature for an ov shutdown. Suggest you review the philosophy and functionality of the crowbar ov protection system. The nature of the questions suggests that this system is not well understood. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:46 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One Noisy Mag At 04:01 PM 8/14/2011, you wrote: >Bob, should all aircraft have these magneto filters? What is the >criteria and what is the recommended choice? If you got an ignition system noise you don't like you may need a filter. It depends on the propagation mode of the particular installation. But if you have no noises, then there's no value in adding a filter. Nearly all aircraft flying ADF or Loran will have magneto p-lead filters. A portion of other aircraft will have them for reasons of demonstrated value. Many are flying happily without them. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: current outstanding questions From: Keith Ward Bill, Thanks for the reply. I'll pass it on my buddy. Keith On Aug 14, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > On 8/13/2011 10:31 PM, Keith Ward wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Keith Ward >> >> >>> Here are a few questions from my buddy who is building an RV-10 and will be using Z13/8 for his all electric panel. He is trying to use zero or as few circuit breakers on the panel as possible. He will be using fuse blocks for the main and endurance buses, so most of the usual CBs will not be needed. > I am trying to do the same thing in my RV10 with a Z14. FWIW, below is what I did... >>> Questions: >>> 1. "ALT FLD" wire protection z13/8: can that be a fuse or does it need to be a circuit breaker on the panel? > I have 2 for my 2 voltage regulators - req'd per Bob. >>> 2. Is it feasible to think someone could react fast enough on run away trim scenario to pull the circuit breaker before it ran its full course? If not - use fuse instead of CB? > I opted for the Safety Trim product which does 2 things; 1) limits trim activation to 3 seconds per switch actuation, 2) it includes a 3 position locking switch that offers Trim on, Trim off, and Trim reverse >>> 3. In z13/8, Can both shunts be hooked up to one ammeter? Would the shunt attached to the SD8 alternator indicate a load even if the aux alt switch was off? Suggestions for best way to proceed with only one ammeter? >>> 4.If your goal was to minimize as many warning lights, switches, and CBs on the panel, what would your short list be of these items to remain? Using Dynon Skyview that will be booted up prior to start-up that will have plenty of warnings to display. > I have 4 CBs; 2 for volt regulators, 1 for the AP (as an emergency off), and 1 for the flaps (I was imagining a scenario where flap actuation at high speeds (why?) might blow a fuse and how I'd like to be able to reset it (flaps not absolutely required). Next to the CBs I have the Safety Trim switch and a switch for ADI battery backup. > > Mounted the fuse block on right hand side panel and had Flightline interiors put a cutout in the panel. A transparent panel will be velcro'd over the panel so it can be easily accessed. > > Good luck to your friend, > Bill "ready to fly" Watson > >> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:28 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One Noisy Mag Bob, Sorry to say, you won't find any aircraft flying LORAN these days. :) do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 08/14/2011 04:30 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 04:01 PM 8/14/2011, you wrote: >> Bob, should all aircraft have these magneto filters? What is the >> criteria and what is the recommended choice? > > If you got an ignition system noise you don't > like you may need a filter. It depends on the > propagation mode of the particular installation. > But if you have no noises, then there's no > value in adding a filter. > > Nearly all aircraft flying ADF or Loran will have > magneto p-lead filters. A portion of other aircraft > will have them for reasons of demonstrated value. > > Many are flying happily without them. > > > Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================ > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One Noisy Mag At 06:27 PM 8/14/2011, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Sorry to say, you won't find any aircraft flying LORAN these days. :) Yeah, too bad. A single receiver set up to receive both LORAN and GPS along with the appropriate filter software could have provided the ultimate navigation reference. GPS works good when there are thunderstorms and no sunspots, LORAN works good when GPS is degraded. Further, it was harder to jam and a whole lot less expensive to build and maintain. But then, folks who know more about airplanes than we do must know best. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.