Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:25 AM - Re: A piece of history (BobsV35B@aol.com)
2. 12:14 PM - ELT panel control modules..... (David Lloyd)
3. 01:03 PM - Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Bill Watson)
4. 01:34 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Richard E. Tasker)
5. 02:30 PM - Re: A piece of history (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 02:32 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Dave Saylor)
7. 02:56 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 02:56 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (John Ciolino)
9. 03:05 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Kelly McMullen)
10. 03:19 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 ()
11. 03:58 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Tom Hanaway)
12. 04:44 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Bill Watson)
13. 04:46 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Bill Watson)
14. 05:30 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Deems Herring)
15. 05:55 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
16. 06:08 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Tom Hanaway)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: A piece of history |
Good Morning 'Lectric Bob,
Just happen to have one of those boxes in my shop. Remember well what a
major improvement it was over the multiple little boxes with the silver and
black sunbursts on them that NARCO first offered. When I was working on my
Instrument rating at the University Of Illinois (1950), we had a Beta test
version of those little boxes installed in our Cessna 170 instrument
trainer..
While we still had to use the four course range for the flight test, it was
fun to be able to shoot a localizer approach. There were no VOR stations
close enough to Champaign for us to be able to try out that omni stuff.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 9/3/2011 10:30:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
I've just uploaded the service manual for a Narco
VTR-2A Omnigator MKII (affectionately known as a
'coffee grinder') VHF Comm/VOR/LOC/MB radio to
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/
This is an interesting piece of history. Note how
antennas were arranged. The manual speaks of a
'full up' system with two transceivers for a
grand total of 54 transmit channels!
The underside of these radios were virtual rat's
nests of components, topside was stuffed with
HOT vacuum tubes and really clever tuning
mechanisms.
My first flying lesson was in a Ercoupe with
the VTR-1 predecessor to this radio. Folks
used to go poke holes in clouds flying
behind these radios. They were quite amazing
performers for the bux.
Enjoy a little trek through the avionics of
yesteryear . . .
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | ELT panel control modules..... |
Hi Bob,
I am curious if you have the schematics for the panel mounted ELT test
modules that control the ELT via a telephone like cable. Seems like the
various manuf. intentionally design this little control boxes so that they
cannot be substituted for another when one changes out an ELT but, would
like to not remove the small panel mounted test/reset module. Having never
opened one up, I suspect that with minor changes the unit could be made to
work with another manuf. ELT.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.....
DL
_____________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 8:23 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: A piece of history
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> I've just uploaded the service manual for a Narco
> VTR-2A Omnigator MKII (affectionately known as a
> 'coffee grinder') VHF Comm/VOR/LOC/MB radio to
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/
>
> This is an interesting piece of history. Note how
> antennas were arranged. The manual speaks of a
> 'full up' system with two transceivers for a
> grand total of 54 transmit channels!
>
> The underside of these radios were virtual rat's
> nests of components, topside was stuffed with
> HOT vacuum tubes and really clever tuning
> mechanisms.
>
> My first flying lesson was in a Ercoup with
> the VTR-1 predecessor to this radio. Folks
> used to go poke holes in clouds flying
> behind these radios. They were quite amazing
> performers for the bux.
>
> Enjoy a little trek through the avionics of
> yesteryear . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking
power I'd like to have.
Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first
compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it
cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first
compression stroke.
At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear
battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but
found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out
for the same reason.
If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but
again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a
re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to
include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic
interchange capability I was after.
I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning
something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more
background....
My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG
cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable
carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded
close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I
followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely.
What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel
on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second
battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together
providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries.
Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had
to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or
conserving power for a start.
What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible
(Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible.
So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master
or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like
the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the
batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation
on the GRT HX display while it re-booted.
So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice
on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter
will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot),
interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount.
Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
Have you measured the voltage at the starter and an adjacent ground point and compared
it to the same measurement at the battery terminals, both while cranking?
Possibly you have a bad or loose connection somewhere that is contributing to your
hard cranking.
Certainly worth a try (if you haven't already done this) to avoid replacing the
battery and battery holder.
Dick Tasker
Bill Watson wrote:
>
> I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit disappointed
with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. When starting
with a single new PC680, I don't seem to
> have the cranking power I'd like to have.
>
> Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first compression
stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it cranks fine
but sometimes it takes several tries to
> get over the first compression stroke.
>
> At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery for
a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same situation.
Now he is in the process of
> changing it out for the same reason.
>
> If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again,
unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of the
3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
>
> At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to include
1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic interchange capability
I was after.
>
> I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something
similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background....
>
> My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG cable
feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable carries the
rest of the power forward. The batteries
> are both grounded close to where they are located and no separate ground cable
is used. I followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely.
>
> What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on one
battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery capable
of most engine starts. Linking the
> batteries together providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged
batteries.
>
> Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to compromise
between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving power
for a start.
>
> What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 req'd
switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is a fuse-centric
design, with 4 breakers and no
> avionics master or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really
like the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed
the batteries for a start which caused me
> to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX display while it re-booted.
>
> So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on a
single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will fix
it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B
> spot), interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount.
>
> Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: A piece of history |
At 05:21 AM 9/4/2011, you wrote:
>Good Morning 'Lectric Bob,
>
>Just happen to have one of those boxes in my shop.
I've collected a few of those too. Had
to get rid of all but one. One can easily
accumulate too much 'history'!
>Remember well what a major improvement it was over the multiple
>little boxes with the silver and black sunbursts on them that NARCO
>first offered.
If you run across any examples or documents
on NARCO products that pre-date the coffee
grinders, I'd appreciate pictures/access
to them.
> When I was working on my Instrument rating at the University Of
> Illinois (1950), we had a Beta test version of those little boxes
> installed in our Cessna 170 instrument trainer..
>
>While we still had to use the four course range for the flight test,
>it was fun to be able to shoot a localizer approach. There were no
>VOR stations close enough to Champaign for us to be able to try out
>that omni stuff.
Yeah . . . when we moved into our new house
on the east side of Wichita in 1952, I was
about 5 blocks away from the ICT 4-course
station on east Pawnee, just west of the
Cessna factory.
It was EASY to hear it on my crystal set!
I've posted a bunch of pictures of older radios
on the website. Interested folks can get a peek
of radios that were one-of-a-kind, pretty quaint,
but a really big deal for the guy in a small
airplane to actually TALK to somebody on the ground!
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
Bill,
You might try moving one of the 680s closer to the firewall and tie
into the large no. 2 cable up there. Also, triple check all the
connections to make sure they're really solid.
Are you using a ground cable or strap back from the engine case to the airframe?
FWIW, I grounded my aft-mounted 925 to the vertical edge of the
baggage floor that supports the tailcone closeout. I used a braided
grounding strap. Works great.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
> disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
> When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking
> power I'd like to have.
>
> Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first
> compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it
> cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first
> compression stroke.
>
> At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery
> for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same
> situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason.
>
> If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again,
> unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of
> the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
>
> At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to
> include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic
> interchange capability I was after.
>
> I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something
> similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background....
>
> My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG
> cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable
> carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded
> close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I
> followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely.
>
> What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on
> one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery
> capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an
> option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries.
>
> Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to
> compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving
> power for a start.
>
> What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14
> req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is
> a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate
> on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result.
> However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a
> start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX
> display while it re-booted.
>
> So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on
> a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will
> fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and
> the need to design a new battery mount.
>
> Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s |
powering RV-10 with Z-14
At 03:28 PM 9/4/2011, you wrote:
><retasker@optonline.net>
>
>Have you measured the voltage at the starter and an adjacent ground
>point and compared it to the same measurement at the battery
>terminals, both while cranking?
>
>Possibly you have a bad or loose connection somewhere that is
>contributing to your hard cranking.
>
>Certainly worth a try (if you haven't already done this) to avoid
>replacing the battery and battery holder.
>
>Dick Tasker
Absolutely. These batteries have a DEMONSTRATED ability
to do the job for which you've installed them. You need
DATA on where energy from the batteries is being lost
before it reaches the starter motor.
Unfortunately, the current draw of a starter motor
is so wiggly, it's difficult to get meaningful measurements
on a starter while standing behind a swinging prop. Suggest
you acquire the use of a battery load tester like this
Harbor Freight product
Emacs!
Unhook the starter feed wire at the starter and put
a bolt through the lug end with a nut to get a good
grip. Clip the red test lead to the bolt (you don't
want an imperfect connection to burn your lug).
Similarly, fabricate a short piece of 4AWG with
a lug-bolt assembly on one end and a lug on the
other suitable for grounding to your engine . . .
preferably the same bolt that attaches the starter.
The voltmeter on this tester reads voltage
right at the test clips . . . so you don't need
to worry about votlage drop in the long fat-wires.
Simulate an engine cranking event while cranking
the load tester up to 200A . . . you should have
9V+
Use the same tester to load each battery until
the voltage drops to 9V. Each battery should
be capable of delivering 9V at 400 amps or more.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
I am having the same problem with my RV-8. PC680 is mounted in the right
foot well just behind the firewall and connected by #2 welding cable to the
starter solenoid and then to the starter. I have checked the connections to
make sure they are tight (and they are). I am perplexed. If you find a
solution please share.
John Ciolino
RV-8
N894Y
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Watson
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:59 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s
powering RV-10 with Z-14
I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking
power I'd like to have.
Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first
compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it
cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first
compression stroke.
At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear
battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but
found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out
for the same reason.
If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but
again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a
re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to
include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic
interchange capability I was after.
I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning
something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more
background....
My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG
cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable
carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded
close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I
followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely.
What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel
on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second
battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together
providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries.
Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had
to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or
conserving power for a start.
What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible
(Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible.
So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master
or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like
the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the
batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation
on the GRT HX display while it re-booted.
So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice
on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter
will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot),
interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount.
Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
The one factor you haven't mentioned is which starter you chose. Some
light weight starters require a MUCH larger current draw than
others(over 300 amps vs less than 200). If they don't get the full
current the starter wants, it won't have the torque to move the piston
past TDC.
On 9/4/2011 2:27 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Saylor<dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> You might try moving one of the 680s closer to the firewall and tie
> into the large no. 2 cable up there. Also, triple check all the
> connections to make sure they're really solid.
>
> Are you using a ground cable or strap back from the engine case to the airframe?
>
> FWIW, I grounded my aft-mounted 925 to the vertical edge of the
> baggage floor that supports the tailcone closeout. I used a braided
> grounding strap. Works great.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Bill Watson<Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Watson<Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
>>
>> I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
>> disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
>> When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking
>> power I'd like to have.
>>
>> Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first
>> compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it
>> cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first
>> compression stroke.
>>
>> At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery
>> for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same
>> situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason.
>>
>> If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again,
>> unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of
>> the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
>>
>> At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to
>> include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic
>> interchange capability I was after.
>>
>> I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something
>> similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background....
>>
>> My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG
>> cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable
>> carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded
>> close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I
>> followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely.
>>
>> What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on
>> one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery
>> capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an
>> option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries.
>>
>> Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to
>> compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving
>> power for a start.
>>
>> What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14
>> req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is
>> a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate
>> on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result.
>> However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a
>> start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX
>> display while it re-booted.
>>
>> So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on
>> a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will
>> fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and
>> the need to design a new battery mount.
>>
>> Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
I bet you a dollar both of you are using a permanent magnet starters. I've
had the same issue when I used one, even with #2AWG cable through out.
My easy solution was to replace the starter with a field wound unit - a B&C
starter in my case.
Poof! Problem gone...and now the engine spins faster and doesn't have any
problem making it over the first blade.
-James
Berkut/Race13
www.berkut13.com
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ciolino
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s
powering RV-10 with Z-14
<johnciolino@comcast.net>
I am having the same problem with my RV-8. PC680 is mounted in the right
foot well just behind the firewall and connected by #2 welding cable to the
starter solenoid and then to the starter. I have checked the connections to
make sure they are tight (and they are). I am perplexed. If you find a
solution please share.
John Ciolino
RV-8
N894Y
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Watson
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:59 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s
powering RV-10 with Z-14
I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking
power I'd like to have.
Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first
compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it
cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first
compression stroke.
At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear
battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but
found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out
for the same reason.
If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but
again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a
re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to
include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic
interchange capability I was after.
I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning
something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more
background....
My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG
cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable
carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded
close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I
followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely.
What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel
on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second
battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together
providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries.
Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had
to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or
conserving power for a start.
What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible
(Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible.
So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master
or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like
the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the
batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation
on the GRT HX display while it re-booted.
So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice
on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter
will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot),
interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount.
Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
Message 11
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| Subject: | Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
Bill,
First of all congratulations on finishing the paint and getting Tigressa
flying.
I've attached a link from Sky-Tec that walks through trouble shooting. My
original engine (Lycoming io-540 through Van's) came with a lightweight LS
starter as stock. I called Lycoming and had the starter switched to the NL
inline unit. Per the info page, Sky-Tec starters require a minimum of 10v
at starter to work consistently.
http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm
Again congrats on the achievement.
Tom Hanaway
RV-10
Boynton Beach
As always, consider the source as I'm finishing prep work prior to painting
and am still on the ground :^)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Watson
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:59 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s
powering RV-10 with Z-14
--> <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking
power I'd like to have.
Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first
compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it
cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first
compression stroke.
At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery
for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same
situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason.
If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again,
unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of
the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to
include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic
interchange capability I was after.
I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning
something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more
background....
My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG
cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable
carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded
close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I
followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely.
What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on
one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery
capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an
option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries.
Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to
compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving
power for a start.
What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible
(Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible.
So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or
separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the
result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the
batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on
the GRT HX display while it re-booted.
So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on
a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will
fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and
the need to design a new battery mount.
Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s |
powering RV-10 with Z-14
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
Yes, I think I have the Skytech LS starter. I will go thru the trouble
shooting but based on some of the other comments, sounds like my starter
may be a non-starter in this situation.
Need to collect data, check some stuff, and figure it out.
Thanks
Bill " has a plan now" Watson
On 9/4/2011 6:54 PM, Tom Hanaway wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Hanaway"<tomhanaway@comcast.net>
>
> Bill,
> First of all congratulations on finishing the paint and getting Tigressa
> flying.
>
> I've attached a link from Sky-Tec that walks through trouble shooting. My
> original engine (Lycoming io-540 through Van's) came with a lightweight LS
> starter as stock. I called Lycoming and had the starter switched to the NL
> inline unit. Per the info page, Sky-Tec starters require a minimum of 10v
> at starter to work consistently.
>
> http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm
>
> Again congrats on the achievement.
>
> Tom Hanaway
> RV-10
> Boynton Beach
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
If you have an LS starter=2C does your starter circuit go through the maste
r solenoid=2C an airframe starter solenoid and the starter mounted solenoid
? If so try bypassing the airframe solenoid and connecting the start switch
to the starter solenoid per diagram A here: http://www.skytecair.com/Wirin
g_diag.htm. to see if you get better starting
> Date: Sun=2C 4 Sep 2011 15:58:58 -0400
> From: Mauledriver@nc.rr.com
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s p
owering RV-10 with Z-14
>
om>
>
> I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
> disappointed with one design decision=2C that is=2C the use of dual PC680
s.
> When starting with a single new PC680=2C I don't seem to have the crankin
g
> power I'd like to have.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
Same thing here. I lived in the DFW area, and was a member of the Granbury EAA
chapter that Rich and the Skytec guys belong to so I didn't even hesitate to
swap to the NL when I got my engine. The PM starters have a well-documented
history of being power hogs. No good reason to dump a Skytec for a B&C when
the Skytec NL is cheaper and lighter and works just as good.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hanaway
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:54 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering
RV-10 with Z-14
--> <tomhanaway@comcast.net>
Bill,
First of all congratulations on finishing the paint and getting Tigressa flying.
I've attached a link from Sky-Tec that walks through trouble shooting. My original
engine (Lycoming io-540 through Van's) came with a lightweight LS starter
as stock. I called Lycoming and had the starter switched to the NL inline unit.
Per the info page, Sky-Tec starters require a minimum of 10v at starter
to work consistently.
http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm
Again congrats on the achievement.
Tom Hanaway
RV-10
Boynton Beach
As always, consider the source as I'm finishing prep work prior to painting and
am still on the ground :^)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:59 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering
RV-10 with Z-14
--> <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit disappointed
with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking power
I'd like to have.
Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first compression
stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it cranks fine
but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first compression stroke.
At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery for
a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same situation.
Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason.
If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, unless
both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of the 3
GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery.
At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to include
1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic interchange capability
I was after.
I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning
something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more
background....
My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG cable
feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable carries the rest
of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded close to where they
are located and no separate ground cable is used. I followed Bob's grounding
advice pretty closely.
What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on one
battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery capable
of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an option for
tough starts or partially discharged batteries.
Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to compromise
between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving power for
a start.
What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible
(Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible.
So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate
on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. However,
I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a start
which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX display while
it re-booted.
So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on a single
battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will fix it
but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and the need to
design a new battery mount.
Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson
Message 16
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| Subject: | Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering |
RV-10 with Z-14
I remember that it was just this chart that prompted me to switch to the NL
starter. Sent the paragraph from the last frame of the chart to the
Lycoming customer service rep and they swapped out for NL at no charge.
"Sky-Tec recommends the use of the 149-NL starter on all RV-10 applications,
not the 149-12LS Van's used on the factory's RV-10."
Tom H.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems
Herring
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s
powering RV-10 with Z-14
If you have an LS starter, does your starter circuit go through the master
solenoid, an airframe starter solenoid and the starter mounted solenoid? If
so try bypassing the airframe solenoid and connecting the start switch to
the starter solenoid per diagram A here:
http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm. to see if you get better starting
> Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:58:58 -0400
> From: Mauledriver@nc.rr.com
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s
powering RV-10 with Z-14
>
<Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
>
> I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit
> disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s.
> When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking
> power I'd like to have.
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