---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/04/11: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:25 AM - Re: A piece of history (BobsV35B@aol.com) 2. 12:14 PM - ELT panel control modules..... (David Lloyd) 3. 01:03 PM - Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Bill Watson) 4. 01:34 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Richard E. Tasker) 5. 02:30 PM - Re: A piece of history (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 02:32 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Dave Saylor) 7. 02:56 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 02:56 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (John Ciolino) 9. 03:05 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Kelly McMullen) 10. 03:19 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 () 11. 03:58 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Tom Hanaway) 12. 04:44 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Bill Watson) 13. 04:46 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Bill Watson) 14. 05:30 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Deems Herring) 15. 05:55 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 16. 06:08 PM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 (Tom Hanaway) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:27 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A piece of history Good Morning 'Lectric Bob, Just happen to have one of those boxes in my shop. Remember well what a major improvement it was over the multiple little boxes with the silver and black sunbursts on them that NARCO first offered. When I was working on my Instrument rating at the University Of Illinois (1950), we had a Beta test version of those little boxes installed in our Cessna 170 instrument trainer.. While we still had to use the four course range for the flight test, it was fun to be able to shoot a localizer approach. There were no VOR stations close enough to Champaign for us to be able to try out that omni stuff. Happy Skies, Old Bob Do Not Archive In a message dated 9/3/2011 10:30:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I've just uploaded the service manual for a Narco VTR-2A Omnigator MKII (affectionately known as a 'coffee grinder') VHF Comm/VOR/LOC/MB radio to http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/ This is an interesting piece of history. Note how antennas were arranged. The manual speaks of a 'full up' system with two transceivers for a grand total of 54 transmit channels! The underside of these radios were virtual rat's nests of components, topside was stuffed with HOT vacuum tubes and really clever tuning mechanisms. My first flying lesson was in a Ercoupe with the VTR-1 predecessor to this radio. Folks used to go poke holes in clouds flying behind these radios. They were quite amazing performers for the bux. Enjoy a little trek through the avionics of yesteryear . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:40 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT panel control modules..... Hi Bob, I am curious if you have the schematics for the panel mounted ELT test modules that control the ELT via a telephone like cable. Seems like the various manuf. intentionally design this little control boxes so that they cannot be substituted for another when one changes out an ELT but, would like to not remove the small panel mounted test/reset module. Having never opened one up, I suspect that with minor changes the unit could be made to work with another manuf. ELT. Any thoughts would be appreciated..... DL _____________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 8:23 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: A piece of history > > > I've just uploaded the service manual for a Narco > VTR-2A Omnigator MKII (affectionately known as a > 'coffee grinder') VHF Comm/VOR/LOC/MB radio to > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/ > > This is an interesting piece of history. Note how > antennas were arranged. The manual speaks of a > 'full up' system with two transceivers for a > grand total of 54 transmit channels! > > The underside of these radios were virtual rat's > nests of components, topside was stuffed with > HOT vacuum tubes and really clever tuning > mechanisms. > > My first flying lesson was in a Ercoup with > the VTR-1 predecessor to this radio. Folks > used to go poke holes in clouds flying > behind these radios. They were quite amazing > performers for the bux. > > Enjoy a little trek through the avionics of > yesteryear . . . > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:00 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking power I'd like to have. Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first compression stroke. At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason. If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery. At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic interchange capability I was after. I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background.... My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely. What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries. Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving power for a start. What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX display while it re-booted. So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount. Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:20 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 Have you measured the voltage at the starter and an adjacent ground point and compared it to the same measurement at the battery terminals, both while cranking? Possibly you have a bad or loose connection somewhere that is contributing to your hard cranking. Certainly worth a try (if you haven't already done this) to avoid replacing the battery and battery holder. Dick Tasker Bill Watson wrote: > > I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to > have the cranking power I'd like to have. > > Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to > get over the first compression stroke. > > At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same situation. Now he is in the process of > changing it out for the same reason. > > If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery. > > At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic interchange capability I was after. > > I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background.... > > My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries > are both grounded close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely. > > What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the > batteries together providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries. > > Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving power for a start. > > What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no > avionics master or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a start which caused me > to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX display while it re-booted. > > So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B > spot), interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount. > > Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:30:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A piece of history At 05:21 AM 9/4/2011, you wrote: >Good Morning 'Lectric Bob, > >Just happen to have one of those boxes in my shop. I've collected a few of those too. Had to get rid of all but one. One can easily accumulate too much 'history'! >Remember well what a major improvement it was over the multiple >little boxes with the silver and black sunbursts on them that NARCO >first offered. If you run across any examples or documents on NARCO products that pre-date the coffee grinders, I'd appreciate pictures/access to them. > When I was working on my Instrument rating at the University Of > Illinois (1950), we had a Beta test version of those little boxes > installed in our Cessna 170 instrument trainer.. > >While we still had to use the four course range for the flight test, >it was fun to be able to shoot a localizer approach. There were no >VOR stations close enough to Champaign for us to be able to try out >that omni stuff. Yeah . . . when we moved into our new house on the east side of Wichita in 1952, I was about 5 blocks away from the ICT 4-course station on east Pawnee, just west of the Cessna factory. It was EASY to hear it on my crystal set! I've posted a bunch of pictures of older radios on the website. Interested folks can get a peek of radios that were one-of-a-kind, pretty quaint, but a really big deal for the guy in a small airplane to actually TALK to somebody on the ground! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:41 PM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 Bill, You might try moving one of the 680s closer to the firewall and tie into the large no. 2 cable up there. Also, triple check all the connections to make sure they're really solid. Are you using a ground cable or strap back from the engine case to the airframe? FWIW, I grounded my aft-mounted 925 to the vertical edge of the baggage floor that supports the tailcone closeout. I used a braided grounding strap. Works great. Dave Saylor AirCrafters 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit > disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. > When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking > power I'd like to have. > > Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first > compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it > cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first > compression stroke. > > At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery > for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same > situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason. > > If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, > unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of > the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery. > > At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to > include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic > interchange capability I was after. > > I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something > similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background.... > > My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG > cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable > carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded > close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I > followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely. > > What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on > one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery > capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an > option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries. > > Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to > compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving > power for a start. > > What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 > req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is > a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate > on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. > However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a > start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX > display while it re-booted. > > So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on > a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will > fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and > the need to design a new battery mount. > > Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 At 03:28 PM 9/4/2011, you wrote: > > >Have you measured the voltage at the starter and an adjacent ground >point and compared it to the same measurement at the battery >terminals, both while cranking? > >Possibly you have a bad or loose connection somewhere that is >contributing to your hard cranking. > >Certainly worth a try (if you haven't already done this) to avoid >replacing the battery and battery holder. > >Dick Tasker Absolutely. These batteries have a DEMONSTRATED ability to do the job for which you've installed them. You need DATA on where energy from the batteries is being lost before it reaches the starter motor. Unfortunately, the current draw of a starter motor is so wiggly, it's difficult to get meaningful measurements on a starter while standing behind a swinging prop. Suggest you acquire the use of a battery load tester like this Harbor Freight product Emacs! Unhook the starter feed wire at the starter and put a bolt through the lug end with a nut to get a good grip. Clip the red test lead to the bolt (you don't want an imperfect connection to burn your lug). Similarly, fabricate a short piece of 4AWG with a lug-bolt assembly on one end and a lug on the other suitable for grounding to your engine . . . preferably the same bolt that attaches the starter. The voltmeter on this tester reads voltage right at the test clips . . . so you don't need to worry about votlage drop in the long fat-wires. Simulate an engine cranking event while cranking the load tester up to 200A . . . you should have 9V+ Use the same tester to load each battery until the voltage drops to 9V. Each battery should be capable of delivering 9V at 400 amps or more. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:39 PM PST US From: "John Ciolino" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 I am having the same problem with my RV-8. PC680 is mounted in the right foot well just behind the firewall and connected by #2 welding cable to the starter solenoid and then to the starter. I have checked the connections to make sure they are tight (and they are). I am perplexed. If you find a solution please share. John Ciolino RV-8 N894Y -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking power I'd like to have. Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first compression stroke. At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason. If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery. At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic interchange capability I was after. I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background.... My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely. What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries. Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving power for a start. What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX display while it re-booted. So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount. Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:45 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 The one factor you haven't mentioned is which starter you chose. Some light weight starters require a MUCH larger current draw than others(over 300 amps vs less than 200). If they don't get the full current the starter wants, it won't have the torque to move the piston past TDC. On 9/4/2011 2:27 PM, Dave Saylor wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Saylor > > Bill, > > You might try moving one of the 680s closer to the firewall and tie > into the large no. 2 cable up there. Also, triple check all the > connections to make sure they're really solid. > > Are you using a ground cable or strap back from the engine case to the airframe? > > FWIW, I grounded my aft-mounted 925 to the vertical edge of the > baggage floor that supports the tailcone closeout. I used a braided > grounding strap. Works great. > > Dave Saylor > AirCrafters > 140 Aviation Way > Watsonville, CA 95076 > 831-722-9141 Shop > 831-750-0284 Cell > > > On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Watson >> >> I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit >> disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. >> When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking >> power I'd like to have. >> >> Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first >> compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it >> cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first >> compression stroke. >> >> At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery >> for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same >> situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason. >> >> If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, >> unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of >> the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery. >> >> At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to >> include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic >> interchange capability I was after. >> >> I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something >> similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background.... >> >> My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG >> cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable >> carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded >> close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I >> followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely. >> >> What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on >> one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery >> capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an >> option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries. >> >> Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to >> compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving >> power for a start. >> >> What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 >> req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is >> a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate >> on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. >> However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a >> start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX >> display while it re-booted. >> >> So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on >> a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will >> fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and >> the need to design a new battery mount. >> >> Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:11 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 I bet you a dollar both of you are using a permanent magnet starters. I've had the same issue when I used one, even with #2AWG cable through out. My easy solution was to replace the starter with a field wound unit - a B&C starter in my case. Poof! Problem gone...and now the engine spins faster and doesn't have any problem making it over the first blade. -James Berkut/Race13 www.berkut13.com -----Original Message----- From: John Ciolino Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 4:52 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 I am having the same problem with my RV-8. PC680 is mounted in the right foot well just behind the firewall and connected by #2 welding cable to the starter solenoid and then to the starter. I have checked the connections to make sure they are tight (and they are). I am perplexed. If you find a solution please share. John Ciolino RV-8 N894Y -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking power I'd like to have. Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first compression stroke. At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason. If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery. At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic interchange capability I was after. I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background.... My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely. What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries. Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving power for a start. What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX display while it re-booted. So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount. Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:06 PM PST US From: "Tom Hanaway" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 Bill, First of all congratulations on finishing the paint and getting Tigressa flying. I've attached a link from Sky-Tec that walks through trouble shooting. My original engine (Lycoming io-540 through Van's) came with a lightweight LS starter as stock. I called Lycoming and had the starter switched to the NL inline unit. Per the info page, Sky-Tec starters require a minimum of 10v at starter to work consistently. http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm Again congrats on the achievement. Tom Hanaway RV-10 Boynton Beach As always, consider the source as I'm finishing prep work prior to painting and am still on the ground :^) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 --> I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking power I'd like to have. Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first compression stroke. At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason. If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery. At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic interchange capability I was after. I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background.... My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely. What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries. Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving power for a start. What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX display while it re-booted. So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount. Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:48 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:21 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 Yes, I think I have the Skytech LS starter. I will go thru the trouble shooting but based on some of the other comments, sounds like my starter may be a non-starter in this situation. Need to collect data, check some stuff, and figure it out. Thanks Bill " has a plan now" Watson On 9/4/2011 6:54 PM, Tom Hanaway wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Hanaway" > > Bill, > First of all congratulations on finishing the paint and getting Tigressa > flying. > > I've attached a link from Sky-Tec that walks through trouble shooting. My > original engine (Lycoming io-540 through Van's) came with a lightweight LS > starter as stock. I called Lycoming and had the starter switched to the NL > inline unit. Per the info page, Sky-Tec starters require a minimum of 10v > at starter to work consistently. > > http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm > > Again congrats on the achievement. > > Tom Hanaway > RV-10 > Boynton Beach > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:58 PM PST US From: Deems Herring Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 If you have an LS starter=2C does your starter circuit go through the maste r solenoid=2C an airframe starter solenoid and the starter mounted solenoid ? If so try bypassing the airframe solenoid and connecting the start switch to the starter solenoid per diagram A here: http://www.skytecair.com/Wirin g_diag.htm. to see if you get better starting > Date: Sun=2C 4 Sep 2011 15:58:58 -0400 > From: Mauledriver@nc.rr.com > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s p owering RV-10 with Z-14 > om> > > I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit > disappointed with one design decision=2C that is=2C the use of dual PC680 s. > When starting with a single new PC680=2C I don't seem to have the crankin g > power I'd like to have. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:21 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 Same thing here. I lived in the DFW area, and was a member of the Granbury EAA chapter that Rich and the Skytec guys belong to so I didn't even hesitate to swap to the NL when I got my engine. The PM starters have a well-documented history of being power hogs. No good reason to dump a Skytec for a B&C when the Skytec NL is cheaper and lighter and works just as good. Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hanaway Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:54 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 --> Bill, First of all congratulations on finishing the paint and getting Tigressa flying. I've attached a link from Sky-Tec that walks through trouble shooting. My original engine (Lycoming io-540 through Van's) came with a lightweight LS starter as stock. I called Lycoming and had the starter switched to the NL inline unit. Per the info page, Sky-Tec starters require a minimum of 10v at starter to work consistently. http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm Again congrats on the achievement. Tom Hanaway RV-10 Boynton Beach As always, consider the source as I'm finishing prep work prior to painting and am still on the ground :^) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 --> I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking power I'd like to have. Unless the battery is fully charged, it just barely turns over the first compression stroke on a cold engine (IO-540). If it does turn over, it cranks fine but sometimes it takes several tries to get over the first compression stroke. At the same time, my EAA Tech Counselor has been working on a rear battery for a Citabria. He used the certified version of the 680 but found the same situation. Now he is in the process of changing it out for the same reason. If I crossfeed the 2 batteries, I get better cranking performance but again, unless both batteries are fully charged, I'm likely to cause a re-boot of the 3 GRT HX screens powered by the 2nd battery. At this point, I'm thinking I need to change my battery configuration to include 1 PC925 for cranking. But doing so will lose the periodic interchange capability I was after. I'd be interested in comments or suggestions. If you are planning something similar, I'd say "beware" at this point. Here's some more background.... My RV-10 has the batteries installed behind the cargo area with (1) 2AWG cable feeding the starter from 1 or both batteries. A 2nd 8AWG cable carries the rest of the power forward. The batteries are both grounded close to where they are located and no separate ground cable is used. I followed Bob's grounding advice pretty closely. What I was after with the Z-14 was the ability to run most of the panel on one battery without the engine running. And then to have a second battery capable of most engine starts. Linking the batteries together providing an option for tough starts or partially discharged batteries. Why run the panel? I've been in a couple of situations where I've had to compromise between running the avionics for extended periods or conserving power for a start. What I also envisioned was a panel with as few switches as possible (Z-14 req'd switches not withstanding) and as few breakers as possible. So it is a fuse-centric design, with 4 breakers and no avionics master or separate on/off switches for any of the panel stuff. I really like the result. However, I've already found myself having to crossfeed the batteries for a start which caused me to lose my engine instrumentation on the GRT HX display while it re-booted. So, I really like the design except for not having enough cranking juice on a single battery. I'm thinking the next size Odyssey on the starter will fix it but cost me 10.5 lbs (in a good W&B spot), interchangeability, and the need to design a new battery mount. Bill "really loving the new '10" Watson ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:49 PM PST US From: "Tom Hanaway" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 I remember that it was just this chart that prompted me to switch to the NL starter. Sent the paragraph from the last frame of the chart to the Lycoming customer service rep and they swapped out for NL at no charge. "Sky-Tec recommends the use of the 149-NL starter on all RV-10 applications, not the 149-12LS Van's used on the factory's RV-10." Tom H. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Herring Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:28 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 If you have an LS starter, does your starter circuit go through the master solenoid, an airframe starter solenoid and the starter mounted solenoid? If so try bypassing the airframe solenoid and connecting the start switch to the starter solenoid per diagram A here: http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm. to see if you get better starting > Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:58:58 -0400 > From: Mauledriver@nc.rr.com > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 with Z-14 > > > I've just flown the first dozen hours with my new RV-10 and am a bit > disappointed with one design decision, that is, the use of dual PC680s. > When starting with a single new PC680, I don't seem to have the cranking > power I'd like to have. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.