---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/06/11: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:05 AM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (rleffler) 2. 04:01 AM - Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (rv10flyer) 3. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Kelly McMullen) 4. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Bill Watson) 5. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Bill Watson) 6. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Corey Crawford) 7. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Dj Merrill) 8. 11:39 AM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Bill Watson) 9. 05:01 PM - What charge setting for Odyssey battery and Schumacher XC10 charger (Bill Watson) 10. 05:16 PM - Re: What charge setting for Odyssey battery and Schumacher XC10 charger (Tim Olson) 11. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 06:31 PM - There's value in 'knowing the numbers' (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Bill Watson) 17. 08:22 PM - odyssey PC680 Battery (bill.peyton) 18. 09:49 PM - Re: odyssey PC680 Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 09:54 PM - Re: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:52 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w From: "rleffler" I sent an email off to Vans, Lycoming, and Sky-Tec requesting clarification on Sky-Tec's recommendation to use the 149-NL over the Vans/Lycoming supplied 149-12LS.. The following is the response that I received from Rich at Sky-Tec. I have his permission to re-post his email. He doesn't participate in the forums, but welcomes anyone to communicate directly with him via email or telephone. bob -----Original Message----- From: richc@skytecair.com [mailto:richc@skytecair.com] Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Skytec Starter Bob, This is important dialogue. We (Sky-Tec) have been completely unsuccessful getting vans customers the ability to receive the 149-NL on their rv-10 540 purchases. It would be nice for something to break the log jam. The 149-LS works well on van's factory 10 (and many other 54 applications through the years) and that keeps some content with its ongoing use and recommendation. But in the field, others aren't able to get their electrical systems capable of delivering the additional current the LS requires to provide the "Sky-Tec start" we all know, love and expect from our 540 engines. I am growing a bit "over accustomed" shall we say to providing those no charge swap outs. But we will continue since we owe so much of our success to date to the very parties involved: Lycoming, vans, and the experimental builders. If anybody wants a good deal on some swapped out 149-12LS starters, let me know ; ) I can't sell them as new and must rebuild them to satiate FAA requirements. In the meantime, keep those swap requests coming and please keep asking vans and Lycoming to kindly consider an empl change for rv-10 540 engine builds. Best, Rich -------- Bob Leffler N410BL - FWF RV-10 #40684 http://mykitlog.com/rleffler Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351522#351522 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:24 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w From: "rv10flyer" Bob, Same info I got from skytec when planning eng order through Van's. Lycoming told me to swap it out after I received engine. I already had #2 ga wire ran. I have PC925 main and PC680 aux bat both in the back. What I noticed with cert planes/IO-540 is that they had 35 aH bat. So, I believe it is a combination of inadequate bat and wire size for the long run to the front. I will see how my 925 starts it and change if I need to then. I can combine bat for 43 aH during cold wx if needed. -------- Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08 Bldr# 40983SB Baffles then fuel/oil/exhaust. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351523#351523 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:41 AM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w Actually, a "standard" 35 series battery, as used in many certified planes with battery in the tail cone is only 29 amp hours(CB35A or RG35A) or less. The battery that I recall Vans recommending is either 22 or 24 amp hours (RG25 or RG25XC). On 9/6/2011 3:58 AM, rv10flyer wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rv10flyer" > > Bob, > > Same info I got from skytec when planning eng order through Van's. Lycoming told me to swap it out after I received engine. I already had #2 ga wire ran. I have PC925 main and PC680 aux bat both in the back. What I noticed with cert planes/IO-540 is that they had 35 aH bat. > > So, I believe it is a combination of inadequate bat and wire size for the long run to the front. I will see how my 925 starts it and change if I need to then. I can combine bat for 43 aH during cold wx if needed. > > -------- > Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08 > Bldr# 40983SB Baffles then fuel/oil/exhaust. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351523#351523 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:25 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w (my original post seems to have been blank - pardon if this is a re-post with some additional info) Some data: Using the HF Battery Load Tester with a 200amps load applied at the disconnected starter lead, I got 7.5 volts on one battery, 8 volts with both batteries. That is short of the 9 volts you suggested I should get, I used a 6" 8awg lead for the ground attached to one of the starter's mounting bolts. I saw a similar results when I went to a ground block directly on the firewall (I think this block has a 8awg line running back to the batteries in addition to it's airframe connection). My plan is to repeat this test tomorrow after re-charging the batteries. I'll also test the battery directly. Assuming I get the same result, and the battery is good, it appears that I have some deficiency in either the ground or power circut for the starter. I'll try to use the tester to work my way from the starter back thru the power circuit and the ground connections. Some more data: After charging overnight and working my way back towards the battery, I hooked up the tester to the battery side of the starter solenoid and the ground stud on the firewall. I got 8.5 volts going to 8.0 volts after 15 seconds with a 200 amp load. Then I took the tester directly to the battery - 8.5 volts with a 200amp load (??!!). Bad Battery? I think not, so... Yesterday, I went out an bought Schumacher charger at Walmart. I had been using another 'maintainer' type charger (I'll get the brand and specs later). With all this electrical work, I felt like I needed something with more options like fast/slow charge. I charged up some older batteries including my old 680s. One battery was clearly bad per the tester and wouldn't take a charge. The other one seemed good. And after a full charge, it tested 10 volts @ 200amps for 15 seconds. That's more than I was getting with my 'fully charged' new battery. I think I have some charging issues. I suspect at this point that the 'maintainer' type charger is not fully charging my 2 batteries for some reason. That combined with the fact that almost every flight is followed by much battery draining panel work followed by charging. So, right now I'm using the new charger on the batteries in the aircraft. I suspect when finished, I'll be getting 10 volts @200 amps at the terminals, and close to that at the starter. Will report later. Bill "transitioning from building to operating mode" Watson On 9/4/2011 5:53 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 03:28 PM 9/4/2011, you wrote: >> >> >> Have you measured the voltage at the starter and an adjacent ground >> point and compared it to the same measurement at the battery >> terminals, both while cranking? >> >> Possibly you have a bad or loose connection somewhere that is >> contributing to your hard cranking. >> >> Certainly worth a try (if you haven't already done this) to avoid >> replacing the battery and battery holder. >> >> Dick Tasker > > Absolutely. These batteries have a DEMONSTRATED ability > to do the job for which you've installed them. You need > DATA on where energy from the batteries is being lost > before it reaches the starter motor. > > Unfortunately, the current draw of a starter motor > is so wiggly, it's difficult to get meaningful measurements > on a starter while standing behind a swinging prop. Suggest > you acquire the use of a battery load tester like this > Harbor Freight product > -- > Unhook the starter feed wire at the starter and put > a bolt through the lug end with a nut to get a good > grip. Clip the red test lead to the bolt (you don't > want an imperfect connection to burn your lug). > Similarly, fabricate a short piece of 4AWG with > a lug-bolt assembly on one end and a lug on the > other suitable for grounding to your engine . . . > preferably the same bolt that attaches the starter. > > The voltmeter on this tester reads voltage > right at the test clips . . . so you don't need > to worry about votlage drop in the long fat-wires. > Simulate an engine cranking event while cranking > the load tester up to 200A . . . you should have > 9V+ > > Use the same tester to load each battery until > the voltage drops to 9V. Each battery should > be capable of delivering 9V at 400 amps or more. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:47 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w I seem to be overlooking the obvious, or as a old Spanish saying goes, "looking for the burro while sitting on the burro". It seems that I have a bad battery. It's amazing how easy it is to talk one's self into overlooking the obvious. It helps to have the right tools but you actually have to use them and believe them. Anyway, after fully charging my starter battery I was unable to get any better readings than 8.5 volts with a 200amp load at the starter, 9.0 volts at the battery. Going back to a battery I had pulled, I get 9 volts with a 200 amp load at the starter, 10 volts at the battery. And it had not been topped off. That seems like some pretty straght forward findings and yet I'm still doubting it. Will have to try a couple of starts and check everything again. In any case, that HF "carbon pile" battery tester is looking like a very useful piece of equipment in maintaining an all electric, 2 battery aircraft. Bill "remaining high up on the learning curve" Watson On 9/6/2011 9:54 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > (my original post seems to have been blank - pardon if this is a > re-post with some additional info) > > Some data: > Using the HF Battery Load Tester with a 200amps load applied at the > disconnected starter lead, I got 7.5 volts on one battery, 8 volts > with both batteries. That is short of the 9 volts you suggested I > should get, > I used a 6" 8awg lead for the ground attached to one of the starter's > mounting bolts. > I saw a similar results when I went to a ground block directly on the > firewall (I think this block has a 8awg line running back to the > batteries in addition to it's airframe connection). > > My plan is to repeat this test tomorrow after re-charging the > batteries. I'll also test the battery directly. Assuming I get the > same result, and the battery is good, it appears that I have some > deficiency in either the ground or power circut for the starter. > > I'll try to use the tester to work my way from the starter back thru > the power circuit and the ground connections. > > Some more data: > After charging overnight and working my way back towards the battery, > I hooked up the tester to the battery side of the starter solenoid and > the ground stud on the firewall. I got 8.5 volts going to 8.0 volts > after 15 seconds with a 200 amp load. > > Then I took the tester directly to the battery - 8.5 volts with a > 200amp load (??!!). Bad Battery? I think not, so... > > Yesterday, I went out an bought Schumacher charger at Walmart. I had > been using another 'maintainer' type charger (I'll get the brand and > specs later). With all this electrical work, I felt like I needed > something with more options like fast/slow charge. I charged up some > older batteries including my old 680s. One battery was clearly bad > per the tester and wouldn't take a charge. The other one seemed > good. And after a full charge, it tested 10 volts @ 200amps for 15 > seconds. That's more than I was getting with my 'fully charged' new > battery. > > I think I have some charging issues. I suspect at this point that the > 'maintainer' type charger is not fully charging my 2 batteries for > some reason. That combined with the fact that almost every flight is > followed by much battery draining panel work followed by charging. > > So, right now I'm using the new charger on the batteries in the > aircraft. I suspect when finished, I'll be getting 10 volts @200 amps > at the terminals, and close to that at the starter. > > Will report later. > > Bill "transitioning from building to operating mode" Watson > > On 9/4/2011 5:53 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> At 03:28 PM 9/4/2011, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> Have you measured the voltage at the starter and an adjacent ground >>> point and compared it to the same measurement at the battery >>> terminals, both while cranking? >>> >>> Possibly you have a bad or loose connection somewhere that is >>> contributing to your hard cranking. >>> >>> Certainly worth a try (if you haven't already done this) to avoid >>> replacing the battery and battery holder. >>> >>> Dick Tasker >> >> Absolutely. These batteries have a DEMONSTRATED ability >> to do the job for which you've installed them. You need >> DATA on where energy from the batteries is being lost >> before it reaches the starter motor. >> >> Unfortunately, the current draw of a starter motor >> is so wiggly, it's difficult to get meaningful measurements >> on a starter while standing behind a swinging prop. Suggest >> you acquire the use of a battery load tester like this >> Harbor Freight product >> -- >> Unhook the starter feed wire at the starter and put >> a bolt through the lug end with a nut to get a good >> grip. Clip the red test lead to the bolt (you don't >> want an imperfect connection to burn your lug). >> Similarly, fabricate a short piece of 4AWG with >> a lug-bolt assembly on one end and a lug on the >> other suitable for grounding to your engine . . . >> preferably the same bolt that attaches the starter. >> >> The voltmeter on this tester reads voltage >> right at the test clips . . . so you don't need >> to worry about votlage drop in the long fat-wires. >> Simulate an engine cranking event while cranking >> the load tester up to 200A . . . you should have >> 9V+ >> >> Use the same tester to load each battery until >> the voltage drops to 9V. Each battery should >> be capable of delivering 9V at 400 amps or more. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:57 AM PST US From: Corey Crawford Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w I believe the Odyssey batteries require a special charger, and "regular" battery maintainers are bad for them. It's possible its been damaged if it's been float charged using a less-than-ideal battery charger/maintainer. You can find more about the branded Odyssey chargers here: http://www.odysseyfactory.com/chargers.html List of approved chargers here: http://www.odysseyfactory.com/documents/ODYSSEYapproved12Vchargers_OCT2010_002.pdf More information on charging can also be found in the Owner's Manual: http://www.odysseyfactory.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-009_0611.pdf Good luck! -- Corey Crawford corey.crawford@gmail.com On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > I seem to be overlooking the obvious, or as a old Spanish saying goes, > "looking for the burro while sitting on the burro". > > It seems that I have a bad battery. It's amazing how easy it is to talk > one's self into overlooking the obvious. It helps to have the right tools > but you actually have to use them and believe them. > > Anyway, after fully charging my starter battery I was unable to get any > better readings than 8.5 volts with a 200amp load at the starter, 9.0 volts > at the battery. > > Going back to a battery I had pulled, I get 9 volts with a 200 amp load at > the starter, 10 volts at the battery. And it had not been topped off. > > That seems like some pretty straght forward findings and yet I'm still > doubting it. Will have to try a couple of starts and check everything > again. > > In any case, that HF "carbon pile" battery tester is looking like a very > useful piece of equipment in maintaining an all electric, 2 battery > aircraft. > > Bill "remaining high up on the learning curve" Watson > > > On 9/6/2011 9:54 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > (my original post seems to have been blank - pardon if this is a re-post > with some additional info) > > Some data: > Using the HF Battery Load Tester with a 200amps load applied at the > disconnected starter lead, I got 7.5 volts on one battery, 8 volts with > both batteries. That is short of the 9 volts you suggested I should get, > I used a 6" 8awg lead for the ground attached to one of the starter's > mounting bolts. > I saw a similar results when I went to a ground block directly on the > firewall (I think this block has a 8awg line running back to the batteries > in addition to it's airframe connection). > > My plan is to repeat this test tomorrow after re-charging the batteries. > I'll also test the battery directly. Assuming I get the same result, and > the battery is good, it appears that I have some deficiency in either the > ground or power circut for the starter. > > I'll try to use the tester to work my way from the starter back thru the > power circuit and the ground connections. > > Some more data: > After charging overnight and working my way back towards the battery, I > hooked up the tester to the battery side of the starter solenoid and the > ground stud on the firewall. I got 8.5 volts going to 8.0 volts after 15 > seconds with a 200 amp load. > > Then I took the tester directly to the battery - 8.5 volts with a 200amp > load (??!!). Bad Battery? I think not, so... > > Yesterday, I went out an bought Schumacher charger at Walmart. I had been > using another 'maintainer' type charger (I'll get the brand and specs > later). With all this electrical work, I felt like I needed something with > more options like fast/slow charge. I charged up some older batteries > including my old 680s. One battery was clearly bad per the tester and > wouldn't take a charge. The other one seemed good. And after a full > charge, it tested 10 volts @ 200amps for 15 seconds. That's more than I was > getting with my 'fully charged' new battery. > > I think I have some charging issues. I suspect at this point that the > 'maintainer' type charger is not fully charging my 2 batteries for some > reason. That combined with the fact that almost every flight is followed by > much battery draining panel work followed by charging. > > So, right now I'm using the new charger on the batteries in the aircraft. > I suspect when finished, I'll be getting 10 volts @200 amps at the > terminals, and close to that at the starter. > > Will report later. > > Bill "transitioning from building to operating mode" Watson > > On 9/4/2011 5:53 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 03:28 PM 9/4/2011, you wrote: > > > > Have you measured the voltage at the starter and an adjacent ground point > and compared it to the same measurement at the battery terminals, both while > cranking? > > Possibly you have a bad or loose connection somewhere that is contributing > to your hard cranking. > > Certainly worth a try (if you haven't already done this) to avoid replacing > the battery and battery holder. > > Dick Tasker > > > Absolutely. These batteries have a DEMONSTRATED ability > to do the job for which you've installed them. You need > DATA on where energy from the batteries is being lost > before it reaches the starter motor. > > Unfortunately, the current draw of a starter motor > is so wiggly, it's difficult to get meaningful measurements > on a starter while standing behind a swinging prop. Suggest > you acquire the use of a battery load tester like this > Harbor Freight product > -- > Unhook the starter feed wire at the starter and put > a bolt through the lug end with a nut to get a good > grip. Clip the red test lead to the bolt (you don't > want an imperfect connection to burn your lug). > Similarly, fabricate a short piece of 4AWG with > a lug-bolt assembly on one end and a lug on the > other suitable for grounding to your engine . . . > preferably the same bolt that attaches the starter. > > The voltmeter on this tester reads voltage > right at the test clips . . . so you don't need > to worry about votlage drop in the long fat-wires. > Simulate an engine cranking event while cranking > the load tester up to 200A . . . you should have > 9V+ > > Use the same tester to load each battery until > the voltage drops to 9V. Each battery should > be capable of delivering 9V at 400 amps or more. > > > ** > > Bob . . . > ** > > * > > * > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w From: Dj Merrill On 09/06/2011 01:30 PM, Corey Crawford wrote: > I believe the Odyssey batteries require a special charger, and "regular" > battery maintainers are bad for them. If that is true, do they also require a special alternator to charge them when in flight? Just sayin'... ;-) -Dj ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:27 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w Seems logical but an excerpt from the Odyssey spec sheet is interesting... Thanks Corey Crawford "To get long life from the ODYSSEY battery, it is important that the battery is kept near full charge, approximately 12.8 volts. If there are electrical loads during storage, then the negative battery cable should be disconnected or an independent float charger used. Low power 2.0 amp chargers for storage charge will keep a fully charged battery fully charged but cannot recharge if the ODYSSEY battery becomes discharged." "Racing Vehicles using total loss (no alternator) - standard automotive type chargers are not designed to return 105-108% of the energy removed. They normally boost charge to 80-95% and expect the alternator to complete the charge. Chargers listed on our website at www.odysseybattery.com are specifically designed for ODYSSEY batteries that are routinely deeply discharged. They provide the 105-108% recharge and then switch to storage charge." On 9/6/2011 1:46 PM, Dj Merrill wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > On 09/06/2011 01:30 PM, Corey Crawford wrote: >> I believe the Odyssey batteries require a special charger, and "regular" >> battery maintainers are bad for them. > If that is true, do they also require a special alternator to charge > them when in flight? Just sayin'... ;-) > > -Dj > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:37 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: AeroElectric-List: What charge setting for Odyssey battery and Schumacher XC10 charger There are charge settings on the 10 amp Schumacher charger - Standard, AGM, or Gel. I'm currently using 'standard' to charge my Odyssey 680s - is that correct? I can't tell from reading the doc. Bill ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:15 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What charge setting for Odyssey battery and Schumacher XC10 charger You want AGM. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 9/6/2011 6:55 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > There are charge settings on the 10 amp Schumacher charger - Standard, > AGM, or Gel. > > I'm currently using 'standard' to charge my Odyssey 680s - is that correct? > > I can't tell from reading the doc. > > Bill > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:40 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w At 07:55 AM 9/6/2011, you wrote: > >Actually, a "standard" 35 series battery, as used in many certified >planes with battery in the tail cone is only 29 amp hours(CB35A or >RG35A) or less. The battery that I recall Vans recommending is >either 22 or 24 amp hours (RG25 or RG25XC). Ampere hour ratings of batteries can be exceedingly short on useful information. A battery's internal resistance can have a profound effect on DELIVERED energy. Here is an exemplar energy delivery plot on a 33 a.h. RG battery: Emacs! Note that it will deliver 33 a.h. at a 20 hour discharge cycle loaded at only 1.65 amps. When loaded with say, 6.6A of endurance loads, you get just over 4 hours or 26 a.h. Load it heavier to like 53 amps an the critter tosses in the towel in 20 minutes or 1/3 hour for a 'rating' of about 17 a.h. A flooded battery would not do as well as this AGM example. So there are TWO characteristics you're interested in for assessing a battery's flight worthiness: Delivery at heavy loads for cranking and delivery at moderate loads for alternator-out endurance. But any notions that paralleling a couple of batteries will combine for a 'name plate rated' level of performance is kind of wishful thinking. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w At 08:54 AM 9/6/2011, you wrote: >(my original post seems to have been blank - pardon if this is a >re-post with some additional info) > >Some data: >Using the HF Battery Load Tester with a 200amps load applied at the >disconnected starter lead, I got 7.5 volts on one battery, 8 volts >with both batteries. That is short of the 9 volts you suggested I should get, >I used a 6" 8awg lead for the ground attached to one of the >starter's mounting bolts. >I saw a similar results when I went to a ground block directly on >the firewall (I think this block has a 8awg line running back to the >batteries in addition to it's airframe connection). Okay, those batteries are crippled by virtue of discharge, worn out or both. >My plan is to repeat this test tomorrow after re-charging the >batteries. I'll also test the battery directly. Assuming I get the >same result, and the battery is good, it appears that I have some >deficiency in either the ground or power circut for the starter. > >I'll try to use the tester to work my way from the starter back thru >the power circuit and the ground connections. Might be a waste of time. If you can't get 400-700 amps from a freshly charged battery, then you're starting the race with holes in the soles of your sneakers. > > >Some more data: >After charging overnight and working my way back towards the >battery, I hooked up the tester to the battery side of the starter >solenoid and the ground stud on the firewall. I got 8.5 volts going >to 8.0 volts after 15 seconds with a 200 amp load. > >Then I took the tester directly to the battery - 8.5 volts with a >200amp load (??!!). Bad Battery? I think not, so... I think so. >Yesterday, I went out an bought Schumacher charger at Walmart. I >had been using another 'maintainer' type charger (I'll get the brand >and specs later). With all this electrical work, I felt like I >needed something with more options like fast/slow charge. I charged >up some older batteries including my old 680s. One battery was >clearly bad per the tester and wouldn't take a charge. The other >one seemed good. And after a full charge, it tested 10 volts @ >200amps for 15 seconds. That's more than I was getting with my >'fully charged' new battery. Those batteries are toast. >I think I have some charging issues. I suspect at this point that >the 'maintainer' type charger is not fully charging my 2 batteries >for some reason. That combined with the fact that almost every >flight is followed by much battery draining panel work followed by charging. What kind of "maintainer type charger" are you using? The Schumacher will do the job . . . assuming the battery is willing and able to take on the energy offered. >So, right now I'm using the new charger on the batteries in the >aircraft. I suspect when finished, I'll be getting 10 volts @200 >amps at the terminals, and close to that at the starter. Those batteries are essentially shot. Your experience goes to my oft repeated recommendations for periodic load and cap chencking of the ship's batteries. Given that you have Z-14, perhaps cap-checks are not so important. You're not going to depend on batteries for endurance issues. But LOAD checking after an over-night on the charger will tell the tale without ever turning your master switch on. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: There's value in 'knowing the numbers' That seems like some pretty straight forward findings and yet I'm still doubting it. Will have to try a couple of starts and check everything again. A wise old feller once opined: "When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science." In any case, that HF "carbon pile" battery tester is looking like a very useful piece of equipment in maintaining an all electric, 2 battery aircraft. Absolutely. Being able to do meaningful cap checks is also useful but not nearly so. I'm learning refrigeration with the notion of getting some BIG reductions in my $500 electric bills. The last two months . . . (100+ temps every day). I'm willing to experiment to some degree with my own a/c but when a neighbor's system appeared low on gas, I deferred to a local gentleman who had been making a/c systems work better around here for a number of years. I watched over his shoulder as he hooked up only a low-side gage, put a wet finger to the wind, ear to the ground, scratched a few itchy spots and ran some gas into the system without being able to articulate the meaning of what he was seeing on the gage. When the suction line began to sweat, he figured 'that's enough'. I came home and bought a set of instruments off eBay that will let me QUANTIFY super-heat and/or sub-cooling for the lucid interpretation of just what's going on. Lord Kelvin was right. If you can't measure it, ya don't know squat. Told the next door neighbor that "Ernie's demonstration was very instructive and I was good to go for her next service call . . . we'll soap some joints too and see if we can spot the leak(s). ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:26 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w At 12:30 PM 9/6/2011, you wrote: I believe the Odyssey batteries require a special charger, and "regular" battery maintainers are bad for them. It's possible its been damaged if it's been float charged using a less-than-ideal battery charger/maintainer. You can find more about the branded Odyssey chargers here: http://www.odysseyfactory.com/chargers.html List of approved chargers here: http://www.odysseyfactory.com/documents/ODYSSEYapproved12Vchargers_OCT2010_002.pdf More information on charging can also be found in the Owner's Manual: http://www.odysseyfactory.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-009_0611.pdf The only 'fly' in this alphabet soup of chargers assumes that you're really going to need to do significant charging to your battery(ies). If one's alternator(s) is working properly, the ship's battery should never be subjected to serious discharge. Getting the engine started shouldn't take more than 5% or so of the battery's capacity. When you park the airplane, the battery should be toped off and require no maintenance if you plan to fly again in less than 90 days or so. Long term storage can be supported by the smallest of Battery-Minder style products. NOW . . . if you routinely discharge your battery as a source of portable power like for trolling motors, then any AGM rated smart charger will do the job. Just check it after being plugged in for a day or so and see that the float voltage is not over 13.5 volts. It can be as low as 12.8 at room temperatures. The point is that uncontrolled 'trickle charging' of an RG battery will kill it. I'm surprised that Odyssey even mentions the term as a useful operating description. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w At 12:46 PM 9/6/2011, you wrote: > >On 09/06/2011 01:30 PM, Corey Crawford wrote: > > I believe the Odyssey batteries require a special charger, and "regular" > > battery maintainers are bad for them. > > If that is true, do they also require a special alternator to charge >them when in flight? Just sayin'... ;-) Good question . . . and the answer is 'no'. Alternators in vehicles, generally are not called upon to charge a deeply discharged batter. Further, they're always in a top-off mode at 14.6 volts or thereabouts. Given the intermittent abuse of batteries in airplane service, the charging system doesn't need to be really fussy. But folks who routinely deep-cycle an RG battery in motive power (or no-alternator racing machines) will no doubt experience an extended service life with reasonable attention to recharging from AC mains. The manner in which we used batteries will not be so cost-effective for having purchased a sophisticated charger . . . but it doesn't hurt either. The "automotive" chargers referred to on the Odyssey literature are becoming increasingly rare. Just about everybody in the business has incorporated AGM/RG/SVLA top-off routines like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf but even then, if you used an older style charger to bring your sealed battery up enough to crank the engine, it's no big deal. Once the engine is running, the alternator will finish the job. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:21 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w Well Bob, I think you've just about nailed my somewhat non-standard but somewhat common new airplane situation pretty well.... On 9/6/2011 9:42 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > The only 'fly' in this alphabet soup of chargers > assumes that you're really going to need to do > significant charging to your battery(ies). If > one's alternator(s) is working properly, the > ship's battery should never be subjected to > serious discharge. Getting the engine started > shouldn't take more than 5% or so of the battery's > capacity. so, for the past 3 years of finishing up my RV10, I've had 2 batteries in there with very occassional but sometimes lenthy use supplemented with a whole lot of trickle charging using a Battery Tender 2 amp charger. A form of slow death... which I kind of realized when it came time to fly. I swapped out both batteries with a new and almost new battery. However, they never saw an alternator. > > When you park the airplane, the battery should be > toped off and require no maintenance if you plan > to fly again in less than 90 days or so. Well, first we did some short ground runs of the engine along with a lot of lengthy panel runs. Using the little 2 amp (1.2 amp?) Battery Tender to top these 2 new batteries off. Again slow death administered for a relatively short time > > Long term storage can be supported by the smallest > of Battery-Minder style products. NOW . . . if > you routinely discharge your battery as a source > of portable power like for trolling motors, then > any AGM rated smart charger will do the job. Just > check it after being plugged in for a day or so > and see that the float voltage is not over 13.5 > volts. It can be as low as 12.8 at room temperatures. Well, the AGM rated Schumacher would have probably saved me... but I just bought one 2 days ago.... > > The point is that uncontrolled 'trickle charging' > of an RG battery will kill it. I'm surprised that > Odyssey even mentions the term as a useful > operating description. Kill batteries? yes I did. But now I have the charger needed to avoid it, and more important, I'm flying more and testing/configuring panel stuff less. Where I am now is that I have 3 batteries of varying degrees of health. Two of them look like they will start the engine better than number 3, so number 3 goes to the graveyard. I'll continue to use these 2 thru my abusive Phase 1 work, and continue to top them off with the Schumacher AGM-capable charger as needed. When I get to Phase 2, a fresh battery will be added in the Starter position, and my best number 2 will work the panel. From there I can start a regular new>batt1>batt2>dumprecyclebin rotation. Given the LS /non-LS Skytech/B&C starter issues, I'm looking forward to seeing how 'snappy' my fresh battery will be.... maybe a different starter will improve things even more. ... but more important, now I have some quantifying tools to track conditions and analyze performance. I intend to log each battery's condition periodically so I can see what the hell is going on. Right now I have stickies all over my batteries with date, time, condition, and tester results. If you don't get some numbers and write them down, you aren't really doing anything. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:34 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: odyssey PC680 Battery From: "bill.peyton" I have been reading the numerous posts regarding the PC680 battery. I don't understand why when responding to the posts the forum BBS generates an entirely new thread each post, so it is a slow process to follow the posts on this subject. So I am going to repeat the original post question in hopes of getting additional actual performance responses. We are finalizing the electrical for our RV-10 and the plan is to go with 2 PC680 Odyssey batteries. One will be the main and the other the Aux STBY buss power. I am looking for feedback on the performance of the 680 for cranking power etc. in the RV-10. Or any other comments before I finalize the purchase. Thanks, Bill __________________ -------- Bill Peyton Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351620#351620 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: odyssey PC680 Battery > >We are finalizing the electrical for our RV-10 and the plan is to go >with 2 PC680 Odyssey batteries. One will be the main and the other >the Aux STBY buss power. > >I am looking for feedback on the performance of the 680 for cranking >power etc. in the RV-10. Or any other comments before I finalize the purchase. I thought we touched on that. The PC680 is an upper-crust SVLA/RG/AGM product by a company that builds them on a highly automated production line. The most noteworthy feature of walking through their factory was how few people were in evidence for a facility that made 50,000 batteries a day. Any performance data you're going to receive outside accurately quantified testing will be anecdotal. You'd find that the majority of folks flying them like 'em. A few will think Hawker/Enersys walks on water . . . and a few that have given up gold-plated batteries in favor of more generic devices that cost 1/3 the price. The biggest hurdle the owner/operator has to navigate is to acquire the mind-set that batteries, like tires, oil and spark-plugs have a service life. But it's a service life with a twist. It's hard to abuse oil, spark plugs and tires such that they die really early . . . batteries are not so forgiving. Perceived "cranking power" is a function of many variables not the least of which is wiring, starter/engine combinations and ambient temperatures. There's a high probability that you're going to be satisfied with the PC680 the way you use it. But over the lifetime of the airplane, it would be interesting to figure battery costs per operating hour with an idea of seeing if lower cost products are more economical. Bob . . . >Thanks, >Bill >__________________ > >-------- >Bill Peyton > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351620#351620 > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Initial experience with dual Odyssey PC680s powering RV-10 w Well, the AGM rated Schumacher would have probably saved me... but I just bought one 2 days ago.... Maybe not. I've often suggested that builder's do their shop testing with a tired car battery supported by a switchmode power supply plugged into the wall. Don't spend a time on flight batteries until the day before ground runs in preparation for first flight. Where I am now is that I have 3 batteries of varying degrees of health. Two of them look like they will start the engine better than number 3, so number 3 goes to the graveyard. I'll continue to use these 2 thru my abusive Phase 1 work, and continue to top them off with the Schumacher AGM-capable charger as needed. If those are testing under 200A, they're not even flight worthy. I'll bet they cap-check at under 50% of new. When I get to Phase 2, a fresh battery will be added in the Starter position, and my best number 2 will work the panel. From there I can start a regular new>batt1>batt2>dumprecyclebin rotation. Given the LS /non-LS Skytech/B&C starter issues, I'm looking forward to seeing how 'snappy' my fresh battery will be.... maybe a different starter will improve things even more. That's pretty much a given. ... but more important, now I have some quantifying tools to track conditions and analyze performance. I intend to log each battery's condition periodically so I can see what the hell is going on. Right now I have stickies all over my batteries with date, time, condition, and tester results. If you don't get some numbers and write them down, you aren't really doing anything. You got it. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.