Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:07 AM - Re: Aero LED'S (Sam Marlow)
2. 09:16 AM - Noisey Power Supplies. (Eric M. Jones)
3. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: AeroLed landing lights not working with wig wag relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 10:58 AM - Re: Aero LED'S (Eric Tiethoff)
5. 11:01 AM - Re: AeroLed noises (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 11:03 AM - Re: Aero LED'S (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 11:40 AM - Re: Aero LED'S (Eric Tiethoff)
8. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: AeroLed noises (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 02:15 PM - AeroLED lights - and an alternative (Sam Staton)
10. 07:22 PM - Re: AeroLED lights - and an alternative (William Greenley)
11. 07:23 PM - Re: Aero LED'S (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 07:25 PM - Re: AeroLED lights - and an alternative (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 08:27 PM - Re: Aero LED'S ()
Message 1
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Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 09:17 AM 10/1/2011, you wrote:
>> <sam.marlow@roadrunner.com>
>>
>> I have 2 friends that have installed the new Aero Led Nav and
>> strobes, and both have noise in the headset at all times, even with
>> the strobes turned off. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm trying
>> to trouble shoot this, and don't have a clue.
>
> Do I presume correctly that the noise happens with the
> position lights on, strobes off but the noise disappears
> with the position lights off?
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
>
No, it's all the time, but worse with the strobes on. And no this is not
an STC'ed or TSO'ed product.
Message 2
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Subject: | Noisey Power Supplies. |
I sell some LED tail lights and used to supply them with commercial constant current
supplies--Power Pucks from Luxdrive. But making them quiet was another matter.
I know Bob N. put together a fix for these. It would be interesting to
see how they worked in the field...I frankly never had any luck, but I did autopsy
a unit to see why it was so noiseyand found it was simply a matter of poor
design. For a while I considered re-engineering them and selling the identical
product, but there was no profit in it.
So I changed them all to tomb-silent LM317-based constant current supplies and
never heard another peep. I will send you the documentation for a Roll Your Own
version (attached), and am considering making a slicker version later (also
attached).
For the beginner who might wonder why one doesn't use a simple resistor, here's
why:
The tiny LEDs used as indicators use 20 milliamps. So running them on 14.5V requires
a R=(14.5V-2Vf)/0.020=~625 ohm resistor. The resistor power is .020 x 0.020
x 625=W=0.25 or a 1/4W resistor (minimum).
But the numbers start getting difficult with a 1 Amp LED: R=(14.5-3.2Vf)/1
11.3 ohm resistor. So far so good. The resistor power is 1 x 1 x 11.3=11.3 Watts
(minimum). (you can use 10 or 12 and recalculate. You should use a higher wattage
resistor, too). The resistor is the size of your finger, not cheap, requires
mechanical mounting and gets hot. You could still do it, but this is the
limit of the olde-current limiting resistor technique.
The LM317 current-controller technique is in fact more expensive and larger and
heavier than using a switching power supply, but not much, and it has the great
advantage of being as quiet as a resistor...and you can build it yourself easily.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353791#353791
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/current_regulator_194.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/canopy_latches_for_bipolar_leds_876.pdf
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: AeroLed landing lights not working with wig |
wag relay
At 08:34 AM 10/1/2011, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I received the updated wiring diagram from B&C that has the 2W 75
>ohm resister across the light terminals. I gave it a try and had the
>same result. Any idea what is going on? Are the Aeroled lights
>different than the Whelens I saw in the picture?
I checked out the AeroLed website . . . seems that
at least some models of landing light have wig-wag
features built in. Are you sure you need the B&C
flasher to implement your installation?
<pre>
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================= </pre>
Message 4
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*The green and the red led's are driven by a switched power supply. This
gives a hum in the system. The only solution is to build a filter (choke and
condensator) at the 12v input of the led's.
*
2011/10/2 Sam Marlow <sam.marlow@roadrunner.com>
> sam.marlow@roadrunner.com>
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**>
>>
>> At 09:17 AM 10/1/2011, you wrote:
>>
>>> sam.marlow@roadrunner.com>
>>>
>>> I have 2 friends that have installed the new Aero Led Nav and strobes,
>>> and both have noise in the headset at all times, even with the strobes
>>> turned off. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm trying to trouble shoot
>>> this, and don't have a clue.
>>>
>>
>> Do I presume correctly that the noise happens with the
>> position lights on, strobes off but the noise disappears
>> with the position lights off?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>> ////
>> (o o)
>> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======**==
>> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
>> < show me where I'm wrong. >
>> ==============================**==
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No, it's all the time, but worse with the strobes on. And no this is not
> an STC'ed or TSO'ed product.
>
>
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Eric Tiethoff
mail: eric@tiethoff.nl
web: http://tiethoff.nl
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: AeroLed noises |
At 11:13 AM 10/2/2011, you wrote:
>
>I sell some LED tail lights and used to supply them with commercial
>constant current supplies--Power Pucks from Luxdrive. But making
>them quiet was another matter. I know Bob N. put together a fix for
>these. It would be interesting to see how they worked in the field...
We've just about used up the initial stocking order of
filter boards for the AEC9051 filtered driver boards.
Individuals who ordered boards to add to their existing
BukPucks never got back to me . . . further, I've not
had any complaints/returns from customers who ordered the
fully assembled devices. It's a fair assumption that
the product is producing the expected result in the
field. I did get into the RFI lab to take a peek at
DO160 conducted emissions for the AEC9051 and found it
to be well within limits.
The reason I asked about TSO/STC on the AeroLED products
is because a holy-watered product would have been tested
to DO-160 requirements.
Sam Marlow wrote:
No, it's all the time, but worse with the strobes on. And no this is not
an STC'ed or TSO'ed product.
I'm mystified as to why anyone might offer a non-qualified
device that is any less capable than their qualified device.
The delta-dollars to manufacture two different products
is pretty small . . . further, the risks of having an unhappy
customer due to "cutting of corners" can be hard on business.
Nothing travels faster than "bad news" about a product or
the services of the company that made it.
Having offered that, the question to be asked and answered
by AeroLed is, "Is there a difference in electromagnetic
compatibility between your certificated and non-certificated
products?" If the answer is yes, the next question is, "How
was it determined that the owner of an OBAM aircraft would
be any more tolerant of noise in the radios than the owner
of a TC aircraft?"
Sam, I'm not sure I asked my question of you clearly. You
spoke of landing lights and strobes. I understand that the
noise increased with strobes on versus off. But if there
is some form of noise with the strobes off . . . does this
noise go away when the landing lights are off? We need
to be REALLY sure that the offending noises are coming from
both products.
In the unfathomable wisdom of HBC management, they sold
all their investigative and qualification test facilities
to Wichita State University. I used to be able to sneak in
and get a quick look-see on the EMC performance of various
devices. Now, even though the cost of doing a 5 minute test
is quite reasonable, the cost and time delays for doing a
purchase order, awaiting a quote, exercising a contract
and getting on a schedule has built a very effective
barrier between WSU as a supplier and myself as a potential
customer.
I've got a broad-band receiver and conductive emissions
pickup transformers to do the work on my bench . . . but
no time in the foreseeable future to get the setup
calibrated.
So tackling the problem before us is reduced to cut-n-try
processes on the airplane. Fortunately, after 45 years
of shepherding various products through the labs . . . we're
not operating completely in the dark. Let's work to identify
the players first, then the propagation paths, and finally
some first-pass experiments to identify a solution.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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At 12:56 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote:
>The green and the red led's are driven by a switched power supply.
>This gives a hum in the system. The only solution is to build a
>filter (choke and condensator) at the 12v input of the led's.
Do you have access to a proven 'recipe for success'
as to the size and placement of the components?
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
Message 7
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*The problem is that you have to use long powerlines from the main switch to
the wingtips. So in the wingtips are the "transmitters" (the switched power
supply's to make the led's working). These long powerlines act as an antenna
and dirty-up your system. In order to surpress this transmission you have to
block it with a choke (i guess 20-30 turns of 22awg wire and a condensator
of 10 micro farad). See drawing...good luck.
*
2011/10/2 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> At 12:56 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote:
>
> *The green and the red led's are driven by a switched power supply. This
> gives a hum in the system. The only solution is to build a filter (choke and
> condensator) at the 12v input of the led's.*
>
>
> Do you have access to a proven 'recipe for success'
> as to the size and placement of the components?
>
> **
>
> ** Bob . . .
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Eric Tiethoff
mail: eric@tiethoff.nl
web: http://tiethoff.nl
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: AeroLed noises |
Sam,
We also need to know what the conditions are for hearing
the noise in the headsets. Does the noise level go up and down
as the VOLUME on a radio is adjusted?
. . . when the intercom volume is adjusted?
. . . when the radios are all OFF?
This will give us clues as to whether the noise
problem is RADIATED or CONDUCTED noise. Filters for
these two conditions are different.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | AeroLED lights - and an alternative |
I have followed the thread on these lights for a while, and thought
I would toss my .02 in - take a look at Ztron Labs (www.ztronlabs.com).
They have a suite of excellent LED lights that will be a world beater,
in my opinion. The tail light is $89.00 and the pair of wingtip lights
is $249.00 (all LED and sun-bright). The real killer as far as I am
concerned is this - the wig-wag is built in and programmable with a
button push. Each light has 3 wires - pwr, grd, and sync. Taking the
sync wire to grd disables the strobes, leaving the position lights on.
Very reponsive company. Definitely worth a look IMHO.
Sam Staton
Jacksonville, FL
Message 10
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Subject: | AeroLED lights - and an alternative |
I am also interested in any thoughts, they claim to meet brightness
requirements for night flight, and their pricing is very attractive.
Bill Greenley
RV-10 wing stage
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Staton
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 5:11 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: AeroLED lights - and an alternative
I have followed the thread on these lights for a while, and thought
I would toss my .02 in - take a look at Ztron Labs (www.ztronlabs.com).
They have a suite of excellent LED lights that will be a world beater,
in my opinion. The tail light is $89.00 and the pair of wingtip lights
is $249.00 (all LED and sun-bright). The real killer as far as I am
concerned is this - the wig-wag is built in and programmable with a
button push. Each light has 3 wires - pwr, grd, and sync. Taking the
sync wire to grd disables the strobes, leaving the position lights on.
Very reponsive company. Definitely worth a look IMHO.
Sam Staton
Jacksonville, FL
Message 11
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At 01:37 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote:
>The problem is that you have to use long powerlines from the main
>switch to the wingtips. So in the wingtips are the "transmitters"
>(the switched power supply's to make the led's working). These long
>powerlines act as an antenna and dirty-up your system. In order to
>surpress this transmission you have to block it with a choke (i
>guess 20-30 turns of 22awg wire and a condensator of 10 micro
>farad). See drawing...good luck.
Electrolytic capacitors are almost never a part
of a solution for reducing attenuation at radio
frequencies. The value of inductance for what
I presume is an air-wound, helix of wire is only
useful as an attenuator at radio frequencies.
I'm not suggesting that this approach did not
work for somebody . . . they were on the right
track for a practical filter. But without knowing
the spectrum of energy for the offending noise,
this filter was far from optimal to the task.
In the instance where a filter was added to the
Buck Pucks . . . see
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9051/9051-700A.pdf
the components were selected to attenuate radio
frequency noise reported by disappointed users
of the Buck Pucks. A hand-held transceiver held
close to an operating LED driven by a Buck Puck
was bombarded by a substantial noise sorce.
The capacitors used in this case are rather small
as is the inductor. The inductor was not selected
for it's ability to function as a high quality
resonance but as a lossy impedance. It was desirable
that any VHF+ RF appearing across the terminals
was converted to heat!
It seems likely that the AeroLED study will
produce a similar finding. But until that
finding is verified, moving forward with any
filter experiments could be a poor use of time
or offer a risk of less than optimal performance.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: AeroLED lights - and an alternative |
At 04:10 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote:
>
> I have followed the thread on these lights for a while, and
> thought I would toss my .02 in - take a look at Ztron Labs
> (www.ztronlabs.com). They have a suite of excellent LED lights that
> will be a world beater, in my opinion. The tail light is $89.00 and
> the pair of wingtip lights is $249.00 (all LED and sun-bright). The
> real killer as far as I am concerned is this - the wig-wag is built
> in and programmable with a button push. Each light has 3 wires -
> pwr, grd, and sync. Taking the sync wire to grd disables the
> strobes, leaving the position lights on. Very reponsive company.
> Definitely worth a look IMHO.
Good news . . . but be sure to ask if the devices
contain active electrics (a pretty sure bet) and if
so, have they been investigated for potential emissions
above those allowed under DO-160 qualifications for
TC aircraft?
Bob . . .
Message 13
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Yes. I have a composite aircraft and installed the units using an old
wiring diagram that came in the box - I too had lots of noise in the
headsets and radio reception.
There is a NEW wiring diagram on the website that the tech guys at AeroLEDs
pointed out...sure enough, the radio transmitted noise went away. Problem
one solved.
However, (after LOTS of hunting) the rest of the line transmitted noise was
being picked up somewhere in the XM audio output of the Garmin 396 GPS that
was being fed into the intercom. This even happened with the GPS on battery
power...it was very weird.
I tried power filters on all ends (LED end, GPS, and intercom) - no luck.
the only thing that fixed the problem was upgrading to the Garmin 496. It
seems that the audio output grounding is different on the 496 and is not
susceptible to the noise, or floating ground issue, or whatever that real
problem was.
Noise free and loving it...and the LEDs.
Hope that helps!
-James
Berkut/Race13
www.berkut13.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Marlow
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 9:17 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aero LED'S
<sam.marlow@roadrunner.com>
I have 2 friends that have installed the new Aero Led Nav and strobes,
and both have noise in the headset at all times, even with the strobes
turned off. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm trying to trouble
shoot this, and don't have a clue.
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