---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/02/11: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:07 AM - Re: Aero LED'S (Sam Marlow) 2. 09:16 AM - Noisey Power Supplies. (Eric M. Jones) 3. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: AeroLed landing lights not working with wig wag relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 10:58 AM - Re: Aero LED'S (Eric Tiethoff) 5. 11:01 AM - Re: AeroLed noises (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 11:03 AM - Re: Aero LED'S (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 11:40 AM - Re: Aero LED'S (Eric Tiethoff) 8. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: AeroLed noises (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 02:15 PM - AeroLED lights - and an alternative (Sam Staton) 10. 07:22 PM - Re: AeroLED lights - and an alternative (William Greenley) 11. 07:23 PM - Re: Aero LED'S (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 07:25 PM - Re: AeroLED lights - and an alternative (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 08:27 PM - Re: Aero LED'S () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:11 AM PST US From: Sam Marlow Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aero LED'S Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:17 AM 10/1/2011, you wrote: >> >> >> I have 2 friends that have installed the new Aero Led Nav and >> strobes, and both have noise in the headset at all times, even with >> the strobes turned off. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm trying >> to trouble shoot this, and don't have a clue. > > Do I presume correctly that the noise happens with the > position lights on, strobes off but the noise disappears > with the position lights off? > > > Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================ > > No, it's all the time, but worse with the strobes on. And no this is not an STC'ed or TSO'ed product. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:09 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Noisey Power Supplies. From: "Eric M. Jones" I sell some LED tail lights and used to supply them with commercial constant current supplies--Power Pucks from Luxdrive. But making them quiet was another matter. I know Bob N. put together a fix for these. It would be interesting to see how they worked in the field...I frankly never had any luck, but I did autopsy a unit to see why it was so noiseyand found it was simply a matter of poor design. For a while I considered re-engineering them and selling the identical product, but there was no profit in it. So I changed them all to tomb-silent LM317-based constant current supplies and never heard another peep. I will send you the documentation for a Roll Your Own version (attached), and am considering making a slicker version later (also attached). For the beginner who might wonder why one doesn't use a simple resistor, here's why: The tiny LEDs used as indicators use 20 milliamps. So running them on 14.5V requires a R=(14.5V-2Vf)/0.020=~625 ohm resistor. The resistor power is .020 x 0.020 x 625=W=0.25 or a 1/4W resistor (minimum). But the numbers start getting difficult with a 1 Amp LED: R=(14.5-3.2Vf)/1 11.3 ohm resistor. So far so good. The resistor power is 1 x 1 x 11.3=11.3 Watts (minimum). (you can use 10 or 12 and recalculate. You should use a higher wattage resistor, too). The resistor is the size of your finger, not cheap, requires mechanical mounting and gets hot. You could still do it, but this is the limit of the olde-current limiting resistor technique. The LM317 current-controller technique is in fact more expensive and larger and heavier than using a switching power supply, but not much, and it has the great advantage of being as quiet as a resistor...and you can build it yourself easily. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353791#353791 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/current_regulator_194.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/canopy_latches_for_bipolar_leds_876.pdf ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroLed landing lights not working with wig wag relay At 08:34 AM 10/1/2011, you wrote: > >Hi Bob, > >I received the updated wiring diagram from B&C that has the 2W 75 >ohm resister across the light terminals. I gave it a try and had the >same result. Any idea what is going on? Are the Aeroled lights >different than the Whelens I saw in the picture? I checked out the AeroLed website . . . seems that at least some models of landing light have wig-wag features built in. Are you sure you need the B&C flasher to implement your installation? 
        Bob . . .
                    ////
                   (o o)
    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   >
    < show me where I'm wrong.      >
    =================================
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aero LED'S From: Eric Tiethoff *The green and the red led's are driven by a switched power supply. This gives a hum in the system. The only solution is to build a filter (choke and condensator) at the 12v input of the led's. * 2011/10/2 Sam Marlow > sam.marlow@roadrunner.com> > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> >> >> At 09:17 AM 10/1/2011, you wrote: >> >>> sam.marlow@roadrunner.com> >>> >>> I have 2 friends that have installed the new Aero Led Nav and strobes, >>> and both have noise in the headset at all times, even with the strobes >>> turned off. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm trying to trouble shoot >>> this, and don't have a clue. >>> >> >> Do I presume correctly that the noise happens with the >> position lights on, strobes off but the noise disappears >> with the position lights off? >> >> >> Bob . . . >> //// >> (o o) >> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======**== >> < Go ahead, make my day . . . > >> < show me where I'm wrong. > >> ==============================**== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No, it's all the time, but worse with the strobes on. And no this is not > an STC'ed or TSO'ed product. > > -- Met vriendelijke groet, Eric Tiethoff mail: eric@tiethoff.nl web: http://tiethoff.nl ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroLed noises At 11:13 AM 10/2/2011, you wrote: > >I sell some LED tail lights and used to supply them with commercial >constant current supplies--Power Pucks from Luxdrive. But making >them quiet was another matter. I know Bob N. put together a fix for >these. It would be interesting to see how they worked in the field... We've just about used up the initial stocking order of filter boards for the AEC9051 filtered driver boards. Individuals who ordered boards to add to their existing BukPucks never got back to me . . . further, I've not had any complaints/returns from customers who ordered the fully assembled devices. It's a fair assumption that the product is producing the expected result in the field. I did get into the RFI lab to take a peek at DO160 conducted emissions for the AEC9051 and found it to be well within limits. The reason I asked about TSO/STC on the AeroLED products is because a holy-watered product would have been tested to DO-160 requirements. Sam Marlow wrote: No, it's all the time, but worse with the strobes on. And no this is not an STC'ed or TSO'ed product. I'm mystified as to why anyone might offer a non-qualified device that is any less capable than their qualified device. The delta-dollars to manufacture two different products is pretty small . . . further, the risks of having an unhappy customer due to "cutting of corners" can be hard on business. Nothing travels faster than "bad news" about a product or the services of the company that made it. Having offered that, the question to be asked and answered by AeroLed is, "Is there a difference in electromagnetic compatibility between your certificated and non-certificated products?" If the answer is yes, the next question is, "How was it determined that the owner of an OBAM aircraft would be any more tolerant of noise in the radios than the owner of a TC aircraft?" Sam, I'm not sure I asked my question of you clearly. You spoke of landing lights and strobes. I understand that the noise increased with strobes on versus off. But if there is some form of noise with the strobes off . . . does this noise go away when the landing lights are off? We need to be REALLY sure that the offending noises are coming from both products. In the unfathomable wisdom of HBC management, they sold all their investigative and qualification test facilities to Wichita State University. I used to be able to sneak in and get a quick look-see on the EMC performance of various devices. Now, even though the cost of doing a 5 minute test is quite reasonable, the cost and time delays for doing a purchase order, awaiting a quote, exercising a contract and getting on a schedule has built a very effective barrier between WSU as a supplier and myself as a potential customer. I've got a broad-band receiver and conductive emissions pickup transformers to do the work on my bench . . . but no time in the foreseeable future to get the setup calibrated. So tackling the problem before us is reduced to cut-n-try processes on the airplane. Fortunately, after 45 years of shepherding various products through the labs . . . we're not operating completely in the dark. Let's work to identify the players first, then the propagation paths, and finally some first-pass experiments to identify a solution. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aero LED'S At 12:56 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote: >The green and the red led's are driven by a switched power supply. >This gives a hum in the system. The only solution is to build a >filter (choke and condensator) at the 12v input of the led's. Do you have access to a proven 'recipe for success' as to the size and placement of the components? Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aero LED'S From: Eric Tiethoff *The problem is that you have to use long powerlines from the main switch to the wingtips. So in the wingtips are the "transmitters" (the switched power supply's to make the led's working). These long powerlines act as an antenna and dirty-up your system. In order to surpress this transmission you have to block it with a choke (i guess 20-30 turns of 22awg wire and a condensator of 10 micro farad). See drawing...good luck. * 2011/10/2 Robert L. Nuckolls, III > At 12:56 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote: > > *The green and the red led's are driven by a switched power supply. This > gives a hum in the system. The only solution is to build a filter (choke and > condensator) at the 12v input of the led's.* > > > Do you have access to a proven 'recipe for success' > as to the size and placement of the components? > > ** > > ** Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================ > > * > > > * > > -- Met vriendelijke groet, Eric Tiethoff mail: eric@tiethoff.nl web: http://tiethoff.nl ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:08 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroLed noises Sam, We also need to know what the conditions are for hearing the noise in the headsets. Does the noise level go up and down as the VOLUME on a radio is adjusted? . . . when the intercom volume is adjusted? . . . when the radios are all OFF? This will give us clues as to whether the noise problem is RADIATED or CONDUCTED noise. Filters for these two conditions are different. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:27 PM PST US From: Sam Staton Subject: AeroElectric-List: AeroLED lights - and an alternative I have followed the thread on these lights for a while, and thought I would toss my .02 in - take a look at Ztron Labs (www.ztronlabs.com). They have a suite of excellent LED lights that will be a world beater, in my opinion. The tail light is $89.00 and the pair of wingtip lights is $249.00 (all LED and sun-bright). The real killer as far as I am concerned is this - the wig-wag is built in and programmable with a button push. Each light has 3 wires - pwr, grd, and sync. Taking the sync wire to grd disables the strobes, leaving the position lights on. Very reponsive company. Definitely worth a look IMHO. Sam Staton Jacksonville, FL ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:38 PM PST US From: "William Greenley" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: AeroLED lights - and an alternative I am also interested in any thoughts, they claim to meet brightness requirements for night flight, and their pricing is very attractive. Bill Greenley RV-10 wing stage -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Staton Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 5:11 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: AeroLED lights - and an alternative I have followed the thread on these lights for a while, and thought I would toss my .02 in - take a look at Ztron Labs (www.ztronlabs.com). They have a suite of excellent LED lights that will be a world beater, in my opinion. The tail light is $89.00 and the pair of wingtip lights is $249.00 (all LED and sun-bright). The real killer as far as I am concerned is this - the wig-wag is built in and programmable with a button push. Each light has 3 wires - pwr, grd, and sync. Taking the sync wire to grd disables the strobes, leaving the position lights on. Very reponsive company. Definitely worth a look IMHO. Sam Staton Jacksonville, FL ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:09 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aero LED'S At 01:37 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote: >The problem is that you have to use long powerlines from the main >switch to the wingtips. So in the wingtips are the "transmitters" >(the switched power supply's to make the led's working). These long >powerlines act as an antenna and dirty-up your system. In order to >surpress this transmission you have to block it with a choke (i >guess 20-30 turns of 22awg wire and a condensator of 10 micro >farad). See drawing...good luck. Electrolytic capacitors are almost never a part of a solution for reducing attenuation at radio frequencies. The value of inductance for what I presume is an air-wound, helix of wire is only useful as an attenuator at radio frequencies. I'm not suggesting that this approach did not work for somebody . . . they were on the right track for a practical filter. But without knowing the spectrum of energy for the offending noise, this filter was far from optimal to the task. In the instance where a filter was added to the Buck Pucks . . . see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9051/9051-700A.pdf the components were selected to attenuate radio frequency noise reported by disappointed users of the Buck Pucks. A hand-held transceiver held close to an operating LED driven by a Buck Puck was bombarded by a substantial noise sorce. The capacitors used in this case are rather small as is the inductor. The inductor was not selected for it's ability to function as a high quality resonance but as a lossy impedance. It was desirable that any VHF+ RF appearing across the terminals was converted to heat! It seems likely that the AeroLED study will produce a similar finding. But until that finding is verified, moving forward with any filter experiments could be a poor use of time or offer a risk of less than optimal performance. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AeroLED lights - and an alternative At 04:10 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote: > > I have followed the thread on these lights for a while, and > thought I would toss my .02 in - take a look at Ztron Labs > (www.ztronlabs.com). They have a suite of excellent LED lights that > will be a world beater, in my opinion. The tail light is $89.00 and > the pair of wingtip lights is $249.00 (all LED and sun-bright). The > real killer as far as I am concerned is this - the wig-wag is built > in and programmable with a button push. Each light has 3 wires - > pwr, grd, and sync. Taking the sync wire to grd disables the > strobes, leaving the position lights on. Very reponsive company. > Definitely worth a look IMHO. Good news . . . but be sure to ask if the devices contain active electrics (a pretty sure bet) and if so, have they been investigated for potential emissions above those allowed under DO-160 qualifications for TC aircraft? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:24 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aero LED'S Yes. I have a composite aircraft and installed the units using an old wiring diagram that came in the box - I too had lots of noise in the headsets and radio reception. There is a NEW wiring diagram on the website that the tech guys at AeroLEDs pointed out...sure enough, the radio transmitted noise went away. Problem one solved. However, (after LOTS of hunting) the rest of the line transmitted noise was being picked up somewhere in the XM audio output of the Garmin 396 GPS that was being fed into the intercom. This even happened with the GPS on battery power...it was very weird. I tried power filters on all ends (LED end, GPS, and intercom) - no luck. the only thing that fixed the problem was upgrading to the Garmin 496. It seems that the audio output grounding is different on the 496 and is not susceptible to the noise, or floating ground issue, or whatever that real problem was. Noise free and loving it...and the LEDs. Hope that helps! -James Berkut/Race13 www.berkut13.com -----Original Message----- From: Sam Marlow Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 9:17 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aero LED'S I have 2 friends that have installed the new Aero Led Nav and strobes, and both have noise in the headset at all times, even with the strobes turned off. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm trying to trouble shoot this, and don't have a clue. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.