Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:23 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/06/11 (K Fohringer)
2. 11:47 AM - Electric aircraft issues (Les Goldner)
3. 01:39 PM - Re: Electric aircraft issues (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 02:08 PM - Re: Electric aircraft issues (Marvin Haught)
5. 02:41 PM - Re: Electric aircraft issues (Bill Watson)
6. 04:09 PM - Re: Electric aircraft issues (Bill Boyd)
Message 1
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Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/06/11 |
Message 2
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Subject: | Electric aircraft issues |
Bob, or anyone else out there in Aeroelectric land with Li-Ion battery
knowledge,
I have started to build, what I hope will be, an electric aircraft. The kit,
a Cumulus motor glider <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgUUN5lVbGI> , with a
20:1 glide ratio is ideal, and I have non-explosive A123 batteries
<http://www.robotcombat.com/products/images/bp_configs/pdf/ANR26650M1.pdf> .
The 560 batteries, 25HP/100V electric motor, and controller should weigh in
about the same as and fly as long as it would with the prescribed Rotax
engine. With a potential to fly about 2000 cycles (read 2000 flights), these
batteries will cost about 20% of the cost of mogas. if I can figure out how
to configure the batteries and charge them properly.
I could use a lot of advice regarding the battery pack architecture,
charging, and maintaining these Li-Ion batteries. I need to know how to weld
or solder the batteries into packs (I am thinking 32 packs places in series;
each pack having 16 or 17 cells in parallel). I need to find an inexpensive
way to charge them (I am thinking I could charge the 8 packs at a time; 30V
@ 50A for up to 45 minutes) but need to understand more about charging and
balancing.
A123 won't give me the time of day since they changed their focus to sell
batteries only to auto manufacturers so any words of wisdom would be
helpful.
Thanks,
Les
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Electric aircraft issues |
At 01:43 PM 10/7/2011, you wrote:
Bob, or anyone else out there in Aeroelectric
land with Li-Ion battery knowledge,
I have started to build, what I hope will be, an
electric aircraft. The kit, a Cumulus motor
glider, with a 20:1 glide ratio is ideal, and I
have non-explosive A123 batteries. The 560
batteries, 25HP/100V electric motor, and
controller should weigh in about the same as and
fly as long as it would with the prescribed Rotax
engine. With a potential to fly about 2000 cycles
(read 2000 flights), these batteries will cost
about 20% of the cost of mogas if I can figure
out how to configure the batteries and charge them properly.
I could use a lot of advice regarding the battery
pack architecture, charging, and maintaining
these Li-Ion batteries. I need to know how to
weld or solder the batteries into packs (I am
thinking 32 packs places in series; each pack
having 16 or 17 cells in parallel). I need to
find an inexpensive way to charge them (I am
thinking I could charge the 8 packs at a time;
30V @ 50A for up to 45 minutes) but need to
understand more about charging and balancing.
A123 wont give me the time of day since they
changed their focus to sell batteries only to
auto manufacturers so any words of wisdom would be helpful.
Thanks,
Les
I wish that the bright light at the end of
the tunnel was not an oncoming train.
There has been an intense interest in lighter/
more energetic batteries for aircraft since
Cessna bolted batteries and generators to the
C-140 many moons ago.
There have been some fits and starts on lithium
devices with mixed results. There ARE lithium
products flying on a number of air transport
category aircraft. Until a short time ago,
Cessna had sold several Citations with lithium
starting batteries aboard. Cessna had invested
mucho bux in a development program that for all
intents and purposes, produced an airworthy
product. Then we have these two documents:
SL525C-24-02A-R01
SB525C-24-05
The background on these publications seems to
stand on a battery fire in a factory airplane
that caused extensive damage and was difficult
to control.
It seems that the battery monitoring system may
have failed to predict and warn against a 'normal'
recharge of a badly depleted battery. Hence an
field investigation into software issues. The
other document speaks to what's necessary to replace
a lithium battery with either lead-acid or ni-cad
with only a logbook entry. This document does
not speak to a Cessna program that proposes to replace
all lithium products from the field.
I'm not ready to recommend that anyone bolt
a lithium device to their airplane. When the
big guys are stubbing their toes in spectacular
ways, I think it unwise to think that we are
well advised to expand a technology (that
is still an experiment) into our fun machines.
By the way, I think the cells involved in the
battery fire were the Lithium Iron devices from
A123. The fat lady hasn't even been handed the
sheet music much less received a curtain call.
I'll continue to track this series of events.
It sound like you'd like to be involved in the
development of a next generation aircraft. There
are a number of good texts on battery management.
I'll see if I can get some titles and sources
for you.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Electric aircraft issues |
I'd be interested in information about building battery packs and
welding or soldering those batteries into battery packs. I just bought a
Li-on pack for my CPAP machine - $359! I'd love to try building my own
battery pack for a couple of purposes if I can do so safely and gain
some education.
M. Haught
On 10/7/2011 3:34 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
> At 01:43 PM 10/7/2011, you wrote:
>
> Bob, or anyone else out there in Aeroelectric land with Li-Ion battery
> knowledge,
> I have started to build, what I hope will be, an electric aircraft.
> The kit, a Cumulus motor glider, with a 20:1 glide ratio is ideal, and
> I have non-explosive A123 batteries. The 560 batteries, 25HP/100V
> electric motor, and controller should weigh in about the same as and
> fly as long as it would with the prescribed Rotax engine. With a
> potential to fly about 2000 cycles (read 2000 flights), these
> batteries will cost about 20% of the cost of mogas if I can figure
> out how to configure the batteries and charge them properly.
>
> I could use a lot of advice regarding the battery pack architecture,
> charging, and maintaining these Li-Ion batteries. I need to know how
> to weld or solder the batteries into packs (I am thinking 32 packs
> places in series; each pack having 16 or 17 cells in parallel). I need
> to find an inexpensive way to charge them (I am thinking I could
> charge the 8 packs at a time; 30V @ 50A for up to 45 minutes) but need
> to understand more about charging and balancing.
>
> A123 wont give me the time of day since they changed their focus to
> sell batteries only to auto manufacturers so any words of wisdom would
> be helpful.
> Thanks,
> Les
>
> I wish that the bright light at the end of
> the tunnel was not an oncoming train.
>
> There has been an intense interest in lighter/
> more energetic batteries for aircraft since
> Cessna bolted batteries and generators to the
> C-140 many moons ago.
>
> There have been some fits and starts on lithium
> devices with mixed results. There ARE lithium
> products flying on a number of air transport
> category aircraft. Until a short time ago,
> Cessna had sold several Citations with lithium
> starting batteries aboard. Cessna had invested
> mucho bux in a development program that for all
> intents and purposes, produced an airworthy
> product. Then we have these two documents:
>
>
> SL525C-24-02A-R01
>
>
> SB525C-24-05
>
>
> The background on these publications seems to
> stand on a battery fire in a factory airplane
> that caused extensive damage and was difficult
> to control.
>
> It seems that the battery monitoring system may
> have failed to predict and warn against a 'normal'
> recharge of a badly depleted battery. Hence an
> field investigation into software issues. The
> other document speaks to what's necessary to replace
> a lithium battery with either lead-acid or ni-cad
> with only a logbook entry. This document does
> not speak to a Cessna program that proposes to replace
> all lithium products from the field.
>
> I'm not ready to recommend that anyone bolt
> a lithium device to their airplane. When the
> big guys are stubbing their toes in spectacular
> ways, I think it unwise to think that we are
> well advised to expand a technology (that
> is still an experiment) into our fun machines.
>
> By the way, I think the cells involved in the
> battery fire were the Lithium Iron devices from
> A123. The fat lady hasn't even been handed the
> sheet music much less received a curtain call.
> I'll continue to track this series of events.
>
> It sound like you'd like to be involved in the
> development of a next generation aircraft. There
> are a number of good texts on battery management.
> I'll see if I can get some titles and sources
> for you.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
--
H.Marvin Haught Jr.
Haught& Associates, Inc
Huntsville, AR 72740
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Electric aircraft issues |
I'm thinking that getting to the team is working on Monnett's Waiex
project would be where some of the most current and directly applied
knowledge could be found.
Bill
On 10/7/2011 2:43 PM, Les Goldner wrote:
>
> Bob, or anyone else out there in Aeroelectric land with Li-Ion battery
> knowledge,
>
> I have started to build, what I hope will be, an electric aircraft.
> The kit, a Cumulus motor glider
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgUUN5lVbGI>, with a 20:1 glide ratio
> is ideal, and I have non-explosive A123 batteries
> <http://www.robotcombat.com/products/images/bp_configs/pdf/ANR26650M1.pdf>.
> The 560 batteries, 25HP/100V electric motor, and controller should
> weigh in about the same as and fly as long as it would with the
> prescribed Rotax engine. With a potential to fly about 2000 cycles
> (read 2000 flights), these batteries will cost about 20% of the cost
> of mogas... if I can figure out how to configure the batteries and
> charge them properly.
>
> I could use a lot of advice regarding the battery pack architecture,
> charging, and maintaining these Li-Ion batteries. I need to know how
> to weld or solder the batteries into packs (I am thinking 32 packs
> places in series; each pack having 16 or 17 cells in parallel). I need
> to find an inexpensive way to charge them (I am thinking I could
> charge the 8 packs at a time; 30V @ 50A for up to 45 minutes) but need
> to understand more about charging and balancing.
>
> A123 won't give me the time of day since they changed their focus to
> sell batteries only to auto manufacturers so any words of wisdom would
> be helpful.
>
> Thanks,
> Les
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Electric aircraft issues |
There's a vendor on HFPack who is pretty knowledgable about the A123's as h
e
sells them to hams interested in pedestrian mobile operations - not that he
knows anything about aircraft, but he probably has the typical ham
operator's willingness to help a fellow experimenter all he can - a lot lik
e
Bob N, here ;)
Google it.
-Bill B
On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking that getting to the team is working on Monnett's Waiex
> project would be where some of the most current and directly applied
> knowledge could be found.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On 10/7/2011 2:43 PM, Les Goldner wrote:
>
> Bob, or anyone else out there in Aeroelectric land with Li-Ion battery
> knowledge,****
>
> I have started to build, what I hope will be, an electric aircraft. The
> kit, a Cumulus motor glider <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgUUN5lVbGI
>,
> with a 20:1 glide ratio is ideal, and I have non-explosive A123 batteries
<http://www.robotcombat.com/products/images/bp_configs/pdf/ANR26650M1.pdf>.
> The 560 batteries, 25HP/100V electric motor, and controller should weigh
in
> about the same as and fly as long as it would with the prescribed Rotax
> engine. With a potential to fly about 2000 cycles (read 2000 flights), th
ese
> batteries will cost about 20% of the cost of mogas=85 if I can figure out
how
> to configure the batteries and charge them properly.****
>
> I could use a lot of advice regarding the battery pack architecture,
> charging, and maintaining these Li-Ion batteries. I need to know how to w
eld
> or solder the batteries into packs (I am thinking 32 packs places in seri
es;
> each pack having 16 or 17 cells in parallel). I need to find an inexpensi
ve
> way to charge them (I am thinking I could charge the 8 packs at a time; 3
0V
> @ 50A for up to 45 minutes) but need to understand more about charging an
d
> balancing.****
>
> A123 won=92t give me the time of day since they changed their focus to se
ll
> batteries only to auto manufacturers so any words of wisdom would be
> helpful.****
>
> Thanks,
> Les ****
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
===========
>
===========
===========
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>
> *
>
>
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