Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:13 AM - Please Support The Lists... (Matt Dralle)
1. 04:38 AM - Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Buckley William)
2. 08:20 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 08:27 AM - Re: Lithium-Ion batteries for aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:12 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (Ralph Finch)
5. 09:41 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ)
6. 09:46 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
7. 09:48 AM - Re: Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 10:03 AM - Re: RG Batteries - I learned something last night (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 10:11 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 12:31 PM - Fw: Re: Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Buckley William)
11. 02:47 PM - Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Ralph Finch)
12. 03:20 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (DeWitt Whittington)
13. 03:34 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (David Lloyd)
14. 03:50 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (mmayfield)
15. 05:03 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Charlie England)
16. 05:44 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Kelly McMullen)
17. 05:44 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Kelly McMullen)
18. 06:54 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Ralph Finch)
19. 07:04 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Ralph Finch)
20. 07:50 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Lynn Riggs)
21. 08:06 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Ralph Finch)
22. 09:36 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Tim Andres)
23. 09:39 PM - Re: Interesting story (Glen Matejcek)
Message 0
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Subject: | Please Support The Lists... |
Dear Listers,
Just a reminder that November is the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser month. There
are some very nice incentive gifts to choose from as well!
Please make your Contribution today at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection |
Bob,
The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with Z-30 and Z-32 mixed in(
dual battery and relay controlled E-bus). Two 16AH batteries. Not all the w
ire sizes and CB/fuse sizes have been filled in yet. Still a work in progre
ss.
Thanks,
William
--- On Wed, 11/2/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com
> wrote:
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, November 2, 2011, 6:04 PM
> --> AeroElectric-List message
> posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 08:53 AM 11/2/2011, you wrote:
> William <hoverandwire@yahoo.com>
> >
> > With an all electric panel (Cozy MkIV), my Essential
> Bus will pull ~22 amps with everthing on it running full
> blast. In real world ops with backup components powered off
> (ie Nav/Comm #2, etc.), it would be down to ~15 amps at
> night. Question 1: Is the B&C S8009 40A relay suitable
> to use for the alternate E-bus feed. Question 2: For circuit
> protection on the 10ga power feed from the Batt Bus to the
> E-Bus (via relay), can I splice into 2 of the 15amp fuse
> slots so as not to exceed the recommended load per slot or
> can I use a 14ga wire as a fuse-link coming off the main
> connection terminal of the Batt Bus fuse block?
>
> - Sounds like your endurance bus has strayed from
> - the original design goals. What all do you have
> - attached to this bus? What size battery are you
> - flying? Did you configure based on any particular
> - Z-figure?
>
>
> - Bob . . .
>
===========
> Lists This Month --
> Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Raiser.- Click on
> out more about
> Gifts provided
> AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
> - - - - - - - -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
===========
> AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> FAQ,
===========
> ---- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
===========
> List Contribution Web Site -
> - - - - - - - -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
===========
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Seasonal cheer |
At 09:06 AM 11/1/2011, you wrote:
Gents,
I hope this doesn't tick anyone off too badly, and if it does, I
apologize. It's not my intention to offend, nor to start a prolonged debate.
Each year, there's a fund raiser for the list servers -- the service
that the Aeroelectric list and others reside on. Well, no disrespect
to the guys that run the service but I thought I'd get in an idea
too: why don't we all send a few bucks in the direction of Bob
Nuckolls for a change.
Bob gives us insights and information, along with personal
instruction and individual system designs for pretty much anything we
throw at him, practically every day of the year. His contribution to
flight safety in the OBAM world is immeasurably high, and to each of
us individually, it's invaluable.
I can't begin to imagine how much this would have cost if I'd gone to
my local avionics shop and asked them for all this good stuff. So,
this Christmas I'm going to dispatch a bunch of dollars Bob's way as
a small token of thanks, and I'll be happy to do it.
Thanks so much for the thoughts and the offer my friend. I am
very pleased that you find real value by participating
here on the AeroElectric-List. May I offer some
expanded thoughts into your deliberations for
discretionary expenditures?
Most folks are not aware of the return on investment
that I receive for my own participation. My craft
depends on sifting though a lifetime of
experiences and observations, to recall past
recipes for success, to craft new ones and often
time to analyze how an existing recipe failed.
It's the constant exercise of a skill that keeps
it sharp, useful and ever growing. Not being employed
at it full time increases the risks of having those
skills get away from me.
The AeroElectric-List and folks that participate
on it are a good and valuable substitute for a
challenging full time job. Please believe me,
your participation is just as valuable to me as
my participation is to you.
At the same time, let us be ever mindful of
the infrastructure that makes it all possible.
There are dozens of list-servers on Matt's system
that cost real time dollars to craft, maintain
and operate. That hardware represents a kind of
oxygen that we never think about breathing while
we enjoy the conduct of our various associations
on the Lists.
I've committed AEC time and resources to Matt's
fund raising endeavors and I hope everyone here
on the list will do likewise. No amount is too
small but heftier amounts go a long way toward
keeping the lights on, the hard drives spinning
and that high speed connection hooked up.
It's sorta like the Oshkosh experience where
the half million or so folks who go to enjoy
what happens there tend to take nothing away
but good memories and leave nothing behind but
their footprints. It's about as trash free
an experience as you'll ever enjoy. I'll suggest
that Matt's servers are the "Oshkosh of the Lists"
and deserving of the same appreciation, respect
and support as we freely offer for what happens
on Whitman Field.
If anyone is feeling inclined to invest
some cash in their list-server experiences, it should
go to maintenance of the environment where
it all happens. Know also that my needs and
rewards for being here do not suffer for lack
of cash and are being intellectually satisfied
by your honorable participation.
For that I thank you all . . .
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Lithium-Ion batteries for aircraft |
At 09:21 AM 11/1/2011, you wrote:
>Bob, can you comment on AD 2011-21-51? Seems
>topical to the discussions a few days ago.
It seems that Cessna attempted to get their corporate
hands on all aircraft that had been shipped with that
battery installation so that they could avoid having
the airframe dinged with an AD. I hear that Cessna
did due diligence in locating all the airplanes except
for a few that were out of the country.
Those few stragglers prompted the FAA to issue
the AD and rightfully so.
That lithium battle was lost but the war is
not yet over. It's unfortunate that this should
happen during such economically stressed times.
The outcome of that skirmish will probably prompt
at least a temporary retreat until the participants
can regroup and new explorations financed.
Rumor has it that A123 kinda put their foot into
the smelly stuff when they convinced both Cessna
and the FAA that their product would never fail
in that manner . . .
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Seasonal cheer |
Hear, hear! I agree with Sandy. With all respect to Mr. Nuckolls followup
post gracefully declining the offer, I would have to say Bob is the single
most valuable OBAM resource I know on the Internet. Web sites and email
lists come and go, Bob's advice is priceless. How do we send a token of
thanks?
RF
On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:06 AM, Sandy Claws <sandyclaws2011@gmail.com>wrote:
> Gents,
>
> I hope this doesn't tick anyone off too badly, and if it does, I
> apologize. It's not my intention to offend, nor to start a prolonged
> debate.
>
> Each year, there's a fundraiser for the list servers -- the service that
> the Aeroelectric list and others reside on. Well, no disrespect to the guys
> that run the service but I thought I'd get in an idea too: why don't we all
> send a few bucks in the direction of Bob Nuckolls for a change.
>
> Bob gives us insights and information, along with personal instruction and
> individual system designs for pretty much anything we throw at him,
> practically every day of the year. His contribution to flight safety in
> the OBAM world is immeasurably high, and to each of us individually, it's
> invaluable.
>
> I can't begin to imagine how much this would have cost if I'd gone to my
> local avionics shop and asked them for all this good stuff. So, this
> Christmas I'm going to dispatch a bunch of dollars Bob's way as a small
> token of thanks, and I'll be happy to do it.
>
> Clear skies!
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
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If you simply must defy Bob's direct guidance, you might consider
contributing to his enterprise by purchasing whatever quantity of The
AeroElectric Connection publication suits your conscience and spreading
the knowledge around your local aviation community.
For example, a shiny new one for yourself, one to contribute to your
favorite EAA chapter library, one to have on the shelf to gift a budding
builder who comes to admire your project, etc.
neal
==============
Hear, hear! I agree with Sandy. With all respect to Mr. Nuckolls
followup post gracefully declining the offer, I would have to say Bob is
the single most valuable OBAM resource I know on the Internet. Web sites
and email lists come and go, Bob's advice is priceless. How do we send
a token of thanks?
RF
Message 6
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If anyone is feeling inclined to invest
some cash in their list-server experiences, it should
go to maintenance of the environment where
it all happens. Know also that my needs and
rewards for being here do not suffer for lack
of cash and are being intellectually satisfied
by your honorable participation.
For that I thank you all . . .
Bob . . .
I want to take this opportunity to voice my
sincere gratitude to you and Matt for this great forum. I have received
many times over the contributions made to the list.
Thanks, and a Happy Holiday Season to you,
Roger
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection |
At 06:35 AM 11/3/2011, you wrote:
>Bob,
>The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with Z-30 and Z-32
>mixed in(dual battery and relay controlled E-bus). Two 16AH
>batteries. Not all the wire sizes and CB/fuse sizes have been filled
>in yet. Still a work in progress.
Understand. Okay, let's look at your numbers.
What are the load-analysis numbers for items
on the e-bus?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: RG Batteries - I learned something last night |
Last week I related the outcome of some tests performed
on a 10+ year old battery in my stable of portable power
sources. A 32 a.h. battery that once delivered 800+
cranking amps was down to about 300, yet the useful
capacity of the battery was not much different than when
the battery was new.
My long adopted model of hundreds of parallel-series
wired mini-cells suggested that 1/2 the cranking power
translates to 1/2 capacity too. The test data argued
with that model. Further, a number of folks here on the
List reported similar experiences.
I wrote to Skip Koss at Concorde who in turn passed it to
one of his capable battery designers. Here's his reply:
-------------------------
Skip & Bob,
There are a variety of degradation modes of VRLA batteries, and the
relationship between C1 capacity and High Rate (HR) performance depends on
the degradation mode.
Most of the time the C1 capacity and HR performance degrade equally,
as Bob states below. This situation can occur if the degradation mode
is due to electrolyte dry-out. Sometimes the C1 capacity degrades,
but not the HR performance. This can occur if the active material
degrades, but not the grids.
Sometimes the HR performance degrades, but not the C1 capacity. This
can occur if the positive grids becomes heavily corroded thereby
increasing the internal impedance, but the active material is still
in good condition.
This last mode is probably what Bob experienced. We have seen this same
result on some batteries returned from the field. Given the differing
degradation modes, it should be apparent why a C1 capacity test must be
used to establish airworthiness instead of a HR Load test. And if a battery
passes the C1 capacity test but has degraded HR performance, it will be
detected during engine start (prior to flight!). Of course, the best
test method is to measure both the C1 capacity and HR performance, but
battery shops normally do not have the capability to properly measure HR
performance.
Hope this helps!
------------------------
Indeed it does. In further conversation with Skip, the
parallel-series analogy was quite valid for flooded
batteries where entire cell-sites would fall out of
a grid and fall to the bottom of the battery.
Tightly compacted plates and insulators in the RG
battery prevents cell contents from physically moving
and gives rise to a new dual-path down the road to
battery wear-out.
Of course, we load test he battery every time we
crank the engine but be aware that depending on a variety
of factors, a poor cranking battery might still demonstrate
useful performance in battery only operations.
This new data will be included in 'Connection's
13th edition. Any day you go to bed knowing something
you did not know that morning is a GOOD day.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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At 11:37 AM 11/3/2011, you wrote:
>TRS/DOJ" <Neal.George@hurlburt.af.mil>
>
>If you simply must defy Bob's direct guidance, you might consider
>contributing to his enterprise by purchasing whatever quantity of The
>AeroElectric Connection publication suits your conscience and spreading
>the knowledge around your local aviation community.
>
>For example, a shiny new one for yourself, one to contribute to your
>favorite EAA chapter library, one to have on the shelf to gift a budding
>builder who comes to admire your project, etc.
Good idea my friend! I could go for that. I do
offer mini-cases of the printed 'Connection at
the same price that teachers and my dealers pay.
If folks would like to give a material boost to
the grand scheme of things, purchasing a mini-case
of books to hand out to fellow enthusiasts or
curious young minds would have my whole-hearted
approval.
If folks can't go for a mini-case, order multiple
single copies and put "hand-outs" in the comments
box at the bottom and I'll give you the same per/copy
price.
See the Catalog page of the website.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection |
Most of these came from the components' docs, some from examples in the 'Connection',
and a few are SWAG's. For the Nav/Comms I listed both at max load (ie transmitting).
Its not realistic to transmit on both simultaneouly and in a battery
only scenario one would be turned off anyway. However I want both to be available
on the Ebus to allow for a really bad night if the alternator and one
nav/comm quit. Perhaps it is overkill to list both nav/comms at max load for
this exercise?? Also, the relays to power the Ebus are not listed. Here's the
E-bus load list.
Trim: 0.3
Lft Fwd Kneeboard Lt: 0.1
L&R Fuel Probes: 0.04
Inst Panel Lts: 0.5
Panel Fld Lts: 0.25
Dynon D180: 1.6 (Can op on internal batt ~1hr)
Dynon D10A: 1.0 (Can op on internal batt ~1hr)
TruTrak T&B: 0.5
Audio Panel: 1.0
Nav/Comm 1: 5.0
Nav/Comm 2: 5.0
Xpndr: 1.6
Left Panel Cig Lighter: 0.75 (SWAG load for handheld backup GPS or other)
Fuel Boost/Prime: 1.5
Annunciator panel: 1.5 (8 LED's with controlling circuit module)
--- On Thu, 11/3/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 12:46 PM
> --> AeroElectric-List message
> posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 06:35 AM 11/3/2011, you wrote:
> > Bob,
> > The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with
> Z-30 and Z-32 mixed in(dual battery and relay controlled
> E-bus). Two 16AH batteries. Not all the wire sizes and
> CB/fuse sizes have been filled in yet. Still a work in
> progress.
>
> Understand. Okay, let's look at your numbers.
> What are the load-analysis numbers for items
> on the e-bus?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Lists This Month --
> Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Raiser. Click on
> out more about
> Gifts provided
> AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
> AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? |
Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are much cheaper
than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if ELTs are made non-TSO'd
for our experimental aircraft? The cheapest ELT I see on Aircraft Spruce is
nearly $1000 which is a lot for something I hope will never be used. Or do
I shut up and pay?
RF
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap |
ones?
Ralph,
We bought the ACK E-04 ELT and are installing it right now. $617.00
from Aircraft Spruce.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/elt406.php
Dee
At 05:38 PM 11/3/2011, you wrote:
>Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are much
>cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if ELTs are
>made non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The cheapest ELT I see
>on Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a lot for something I
>hope will never be used. Or do I shut up and pay?
>
>RF
DeWitt (Dee) Whittington
406 N Mulberry St
Richmond, VA 23220-3320
(804) 358-4333 phone and fax
SKYPE: hilltopkid
dee.whittington@gmail.com
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? |
Ralph,
I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's.
They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative,
they can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF
signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers to
this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that
alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5
but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and
the new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin
point on the money.
ELT's, autopilots,etc. are like an expensive insurance policy. You hope
you never have to use it that way, but, when needed you would pay a 100x
more for the saving service they provide. Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Finch
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:38 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO
cheap ones?
Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are much
cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if ELTs are made
non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The cheapest ELT I see on
Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a lot for something I hope will
never be used. Or do I shut up and pay?
RF
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? |
I think you will find that, like the case of transponders, any ELT fitted to any
plane (experimental or otherwise) must comply with the relevant TSO. There are
good reasons for this. It is, after all, supposed to comply with specific standards
so that it meets the same specs and interfaces correctly with SAR organisations
wherever in the world your plane happens to be.
I believe "shutup and pay", as you say, is the answer. :) However there is nothing
to stop you shopping around. AC Spruce isn't always the cheapest place to
buy stuff!
--------
Mike
Your political opinions are noted. And ignored.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356849#356849
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap |
ones?
The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for
~$100 if you shop around.
I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble
transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony.
I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it
with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search).
Charlie
On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote:
> Ralph,
> I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's.
> They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a
> negative, they can lead to a longer search period because they only
> send out an RF signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of
> their receivers to this freq. and report when a signal is passed
> over. At least that alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's
> also still pump out 121.5 but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by
> overhead satellite receivers and the new style ELT put out GPS
> location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on the money.
> ELT's, autopilots,etc. are like an expensive insurance policy. You
> hope you never have to use it that way, but, when needed you would pay
> a 100x more for the saving service they provide. Dave
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Ralph Finch <mailto:ralphmariafinch@gmail.com>
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:38 PM
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters:
> non-TSO cheap ones?
>
> Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are
> much cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if
> ELTs are made non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The
> cheapest ELT I see on Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a
> lot for something I hope will never be used. Or do I shut up and pay?
>
> RF
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap |
ones?
1. ELTs are required by reg to be TSO. Just like Transponders are
required to be TSO, and for IFR flight GPS must be TSO.
2. 1st generation ELTs (TSO circa 1975)may not be used for new install
in any aircraft. Only identical replacement of existing is allowed.
Example Narco ELT10.
3. 2nd generation ELTs are legal for new install, TSO circa 1990. Most
are under $200. Example ACK E-01.
So beware which variety you get if you buy via Ebay.
On 11/3/2011 4:54 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for
> ~$100 if you shop around.
>
> I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble
> transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony.
>
> I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement
> it with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search).
>
> Charlie
>
> On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote:
>> Ralph,
>> I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's.
>> They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a
>> negative, they can lead to a longer search period because they only
>> send out an RF signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of
>> their receivers to this freq. and report when a signal is passed
>> over. At least that alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's
>> also still pump out 121.5 but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by
>> overhead satellite receivers and the new style ELT put out GPS
>> location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on the money.
>> ELT's, autopilots,etc. are like an expensive insurance policy. You
>> hope you never have to use it that way, but, when needed you would
>> pay a 100x more for the saving service they provide. Dave
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Ralph Finch <mailto:ralphmariafinch@gmail.com>
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:38 PM
>> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters:
>> non-TSO cheap ones?
>>
>> Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are
>> much cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if
>> ELTs are made non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The
>> cheapest ELT I see on Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a
>> lot for something I hope will never be used. Or do I shut up and pay?
>>
>> RF
>>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap |
ones?
The new ELTs are 406Mhz, not 430. They do have to use mfr supplied
antenna located as instructed to comply with TSO.
On 11/3/2011 4:54 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble
> transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony.
> **
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? |
I've done a bit more research.
- The ACK E-04 does seem the cheapest 406MHz ELT available, and has GPS
input. I emailed Ack, Inc. to see if it will use the last received GPS
update for location; if not--if it needs an active datastream to retransmit
location to the SAR satellite--then the GPS input seems fairly useless as I
would suppose the coax from GPS to ELT is probably going to be broken in a
crash.
- A Kannad S1840501-02 406 AF Compact seems the cheapest
406MHz+integrated GPS around at $831 Aircraft Spruce.
- The other possibility, as mentioned below, is cheapo 121.5 MHz unit
for legality, with APRS or PLB to actually be found. I already mounted an
APRS in a wing tip and fully intend to be running that (I got a Tech
Amateur Radio license long ago).
- Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to
enter their countries?
RF
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>
> The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for ~$100
if you shop around.
>
> I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble
transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony.
>
> I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it
with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search).
>
> Charlie
>
> On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote:
>
> Ralph,
> I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. They
are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative, they
can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF
signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers
to this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that
alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5
but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the
new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on
the money.
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? |
Got a very prompt reply:
"The ELT will retain the last GPS coordinates for one minute when
> disconnected from the GPS data source before it is activated and for 4
> hours after it is activate.
>
> Mike Akatiff"
>
That pretty much does it for me, I think I'll get that model. Legal to
travel to other countries; much more assurance with the 406MHz model that
in a crash the SAR system will be alerted; and a good chance they'll have
your last position with the GPS input.
RF
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch@gmail.com>wrote:
> I've done a bit more research.
>
>
> - The ACK E-04 does seem the cheapest 406MHz ELT available, and has
> GPS input. I emailed Ack, Inc. to see if it will use the last received GPS
> update for location; if not--if it needs an active datastream to retransmit
> location to the SAR satellite--then the GPS input seems fairly useless as
I
> would suppose the coax from GPS to ELT is probably going to be broken in a
> crash.
> - A Kannad S1840501-02 406 AF Compact seems the cheapest
> 406MHz+integrated GPS around at $831 Aircraft Spruce.
> - The other possibility, as mentioned below, is cheapo 121.5 MHz unit
> for legality, with APRS or PLB to actually be found. I already mounted an
> APRS in a wing tip and fully intend to be running that (I got a Tech
> Amateur Radio license long ago).
> - Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to
> enter their countries?
>
>
> RF
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for
> ~$100 if you shop around.
> >
> > I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble
> transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony.
> >
> > I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it
> with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search).
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote:
> >
> > Ralph,
> > I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's.
> They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative,
> they can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF
> signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers
> to this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that
> alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5
> but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the
> new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on
> the money.
>
>
Message 20
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Subject: | Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? |
Looks like the best place to get it is here:
http://www.airsuppliers.com/shop/search.asp?searchterm=ACK-E04
Lynn Riggs
riggs_la@yahoo.com
612-508-0988
http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p352107
http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p293990
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Finch
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO
cheap ones?
Got a very prompt reply:
"The ELT will retain the last GPS coordinates for one minute when
disconnected from the GPS data source before it is activated and for 4 hours
after it is activate.
Mike Akatiff"
That pretty much does it for me, I think I'll get that model. Legal to
travel to other countries; much more assurance with the 406MHz model that in
a crash the SAR system will be alerted; and a good chance they'll have your
last position with the GPS input.
RF
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch@gmail.com>
wrote:
I've done a bit more research.
* The ACK E-04 does seem the cheapest 406MHz ELT available, and has
GPS input. I emailed Ack, Inc. to see if it will use the last received GPS
update for location; if not--if it needs an active datastream to retransmit
location to the SAR satellite--then the GPS input seems fairly useless as I
would suppose the coax from GPS to ELT is probably going to be broken in a
crash.
* A Kannad S1840501-02 406 AF Compact seems the cheapest
406MHz+integrated GPS around at $831 Aircraft Spruce.
* The other possibility, as mentioned below, is cheapo 121.5 MHz unit
for legality, with APRS or PLB to actually be found. I already mounted an
APRS in a wing tip and fully intend to be running that (I got a Tech Amateur
Radio license long ago).
* Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to
enter their countries?
RF
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>
> The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for ~$100
if you shop around.
>
> I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble
transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony.
>
> I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it
with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search).
>
> Charlie
>
> On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote:
>
> Ralph,
> I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. They
are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative, they can
lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF signal. On
the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers to this freq. and
report when a signal is passed over. At least that alerts the emergency
agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5 but, the the 430 freq. is
monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the new style ELT put out GPS
location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on the money.
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? |
Wow, that's a great price for sure.
RF
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Lynn Riggs <riggs_la@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Looks like the best place to get it is here:****
>
> http://www.airsuppliers.com/shop/search.asp?searchterm=ACK-E04****
>
> ** **
>
> Lynn Riggs****
>
> riggs_la@yahoo.com****
>
> 612-508-0988****
>
> http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p352107****
>
> http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p293990****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ralph Finch
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:01 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO
> cheap ones?****
>
> ** **
>
> Got a very prompt reply:****
>
> "The ELT will retain the last GPS coordinates for one minute when
> disconnected from the GPS data source before it is activated and for 4
> hours after it is activate.****
>
> Mike Akatiff"****
>
>
> That pretty much does it for me, I think I'll get that model. Legal to
> travel to other countries; much more assurance with the 406MHz model that
> in a crash the SAR system will be alerted; and a good chance they'll have
> your last position with the GPS input.
>
> RF ****
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
> I've done a bit more research. ****
>
> - The ACK E-04 does seem the cheapest 406MHz ELT available, and has
> GPS input. I emailed Ack, Inc. to see if it will use the last received GPS
> update for location; if not--if it needs an active datastream to retransmit
> location to the SAR satellite--then the GPS input seems fairly useless as
I
> would suppose the coax from GPS to ELT is probably going to be broken in a
> crash.****
> - A Kannad S1840501-02 406 AF Compact seems the cheapest
> 406MHz+integrated GPS around at $831 Aircraft Spruce.****
> - The other possibility, as mentioned below, is cheapo 121.5 MHz unit
> for legality, with APRS or PLB to actually be found. I already mounted an
> APRS in a wing tip and fully intend to be running that (I got a Tech
> Amateur Radio license long ago).****
> - Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to
> enter their countries?****
>
>
> RF****
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for
> ~$100 if you shop around.
> >
> > I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble
> transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony.
> >
> > I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it
> with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search).
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote:
> >
> > Ralph,
> > I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's.
> They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative,
> they can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF
> signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers
> to this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that
> alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5
> but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the
> new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on
> the money.
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap |
ones?
On 11/3/2011 7:01 PM, Ralph Finch wrote:
> Got a very prompt reply:
>
> "The ELT will retain the last GPS coordinates for one minute when
> disconnected from the GPS data source before it is activated and
> for 4 hours after it is activate.
>
> Mike Akatiff"
>
I installed one of these units and I really only have 1 complaint about
it. The serial data, power & ground for the unit comes in thru a cheap
plastic Male/Female DIN connector that will not "click" or lock
together, it simply falls apart at the slightest pull, almost no
resistance at all. I contacted them about this and was told "it's in the
install manual, you are to tape it together"! Sure enough its in there
and I missed it!
Also, the pins in the same connector are the solder type and very tiny &
difficult to solder. Following on a tip I read over at VAF I used female
D-sub pins (HD?) crimped with the Daniels crimpers and just slid them
onto the pins, then securing with heat shrink. I also used heat shrink
over the DIN halves instead of tape, much better but still a flimsy
setup to be sure. Bob K would have a few comments if he saw it!
One more tip, you make a LED/Resistor test rig you make to verify the
unit is receiving data and the blinks are very short duration, almost
too fast to see. Don't give up if you don't see it blink at first, just
look more closely. I thought I had a problem, but it turned out to be
working, just hard to see.
Tim
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Interesting story |
ZnCrO4!
Sorry guys; I couldn't help myself....
Nomex undies snug!
And, do not archive!
Glen Matejcek
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