---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/03/11: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:13 AM - Please Support The Lists... (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:38 AM - Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Buckley William) 2. 08:20 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:27 AM - Re: Lithium-Ion batteries for aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:12 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (Ralph Finch) 5. 09:41 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ) 6. 09:46 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 7. 09:48 AM - Re: Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 10:03 AM - Re: RG Batteries - I learned something last night (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 10:11 AM - Re: Seasonal cheer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 12:31 PM - Fw: Re: Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Buckley William) 11. 02:47 PM - Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Ralph Finch) 12. 03:20 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (DeWitt Whittington) 13. 03:34 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (David Lloyd) 14. 03:50 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (mmayfield) 15. 05:03 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Charlie England) 16. 05:44 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Kelly McMullen) 17. 05:44 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Kelly McMullen) 18. 06:54 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Ralph Finch) 19. 07:04 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Ralph Finch) 20. 07:50 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Lynn Riggs) 21. 08:06 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Ralph Finch) 22. 09:36 PM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? (Tim Andres) 23. 09:39 PM - Re: Interesting story (Glen Matejcek) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:37 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Please Support The Lists... Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser month. There are some very nice incentive gifts to choose from as well! Please make your Contribution today at: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:51 AM PST US From: Buckley William Subject: Fw: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection Bob, The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with Z-30 and Z-32 mixed in( dual battery and relay controlled E-bus). Two 16AH batteries. Not all the w ire sizes and CB/fuse sizes have been filled in yet. Still a work in progre ss. Thanks, William --- On Wed, 11/2/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, November 2, 2011, 6:04 PM > --> AeroElectric-List message > posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 08:53 AM 11/2/2011, you wrote: > William > > > > With an all electric panel (Cozy MkIV), my Essential > Bus will pull ~22 amps with everthing on it running full > blast. In real world ops with backup components powered off > (ie Nav/Comm #2, etc.), it would be down to ~15 amps at > night. Question 1: Is the B&C S8009 40A relay suitable > to use for the alternate E-bus feed. Question 2: For circuit > protection on the 10ga power feed from the Batt Bus to the > E-Bus (via relay), can I splice into 2 of the 15amp fuse > slots so as not to exceed the recommended load per slot or > can I use a 14ga wire as a fuse-link coming off the main > connection terminal of the Batt Bus fuse block? > > - Sounds like your endurance bus has strayed from > - the original design goals. What all do you have > - attached to this bus? What size battery are you > - flying? Did you configure based on any particular > - Z-figure? > > > - Bob . . . > =========== > Lists This Month -- > Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > Raiser.- Click on > out more about > Gifts provided > AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com > www.buildersbooks.com > - - - - - - - -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. =========== > AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > FAQ, =========== > ---- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =========== > List Contribution Web Site - > - - - - - - - -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. =========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seasonal cheer At 09:06 AM 11/1/2011, you wrote: Gents, I hope this doesn't tick anyone off too badly, and if it does, I apologize. It's not my intention to offend, nor to start a prolonged debate. Each year, there's a fund raiser for the list servers -- the service that the Aeroelectric list and others reside on. Well, no disrespect to the guys that run the service but I thought I'd get in an idea too: why don't we all send a few bucks in the direction of Bob Nuckolls for a change. Bob gives us insights and information, along with personal instruction and individual system designs for pretty much anything we throw at him, practically every day of the year. His contribution to flight safety in the OBAM world is immeasurably high, and to each of us individually, it's invaluable. I can't begin to imagine how much this would have cost if I'd gone to my local avionics shop and asked them for all this good stuff. So, this Christmas I'm going to dispatch a bunch of dollars Bob's way as a small token of thanks, and I'll be happy to do it. Thanks so much for the thoughts and the offer my friend. I am very pleased that you find real value by participating here on the AeroElectric-List. May I offer some expanded thoughts into your deliberations for discretionary expenditures? Most folks are not aware of the return on investment that I receive for my own participation. My craft depends on sifting though a lifetime of experiences and observations, to recall past recipes for success, to craft new ones and often time to analyze how an existing recipe failed. It's the constant exercise of a skill that keeps it sharp, useful and ever growing. Not being employed at it full time increases the risks of having those skills get away from me. The AeroElectric-List and folks that participate on it are a good and valuable substitute for a challenging full time job. Please believe me, your participation is just as valuable to me as my participation is to you. At the same time, let us be ever mindful of the infrastructure that makes it all possible. There are dozens of list-servers on Matt's system that cost real time dollars to craft, maintain and operate. That hardware represents a kind of oxygen that we never think about breathing while we enjoy the conduct of our various associations on the Lists. I've committed AEC time and resources to Matt's fund raising endeavors and I hope everyone here on the list will do likewise. No amount is too small but heftier amounts go a long way toward keeping the lights on, the hard drives spinning and that high speed connection hooked up. It's sorta like the Oshkosh experience where the half million or so folks who go to enjoy what happens there tend to take nothing away but good memories and leave nothing behind but their footprints. It's about as trash free an experience as you'll ever enjoy. I'll suggest that Matt's servers are the "Oshkosh of the Lists" and deserving of the same appreciation, respect and support as we freely offer for what happens on Whitman Field. If anyone is feeling inclined to invest some cash in their list-server experiences, it should go to maintenance of the environment where it all happens. Know also that my needs and rewards for being here do not suffer for lack of cash and are being intellectually satisfied by your honorable participation. For that I thank you all . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lithium-Ion batteries for aircraft At 09:21 AM 11/1/2011, you wrote: >Bob, can you comment on AD 2011-21-51? Seems >topical to the discussions a few days ago. It seems that Cessna attempted to get their corporate hands on all aircraft that had been shipped with that battery installation so that they could avoid having the airframe dinged with an AD. I hear that Cessna did due diligence in locating all the airplanes except for a few that were out of the country. Those few stragglers prompted the FAA to issue the AD and rightfully so. That lithium battle was lost but the war is not yet over. It's unfortunate that this should happen during such economically stressed times. The outcome of that skirmish will probably prompt at least a temporary retreat until the participants can regroup and new explorations financed. Rumor has it that A123 kinda put their foot into the smelly stuff when they convinced both Cessna and the FAA that their product would never fail in that manner . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:32 AM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seasonal cheer Hear, hear! I agree with Sandy. With all respect to Mr. Nuckolls followup post gracefully declining the offer, I would have to say Bob is the single most valuable OBAM resource I know on the Internet. Web sites and email lists come and go, Bob's advice is priceless. How do we send a token of thanks? RF On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:06 AM, Sandy Claws wrote: > Gents, > > I hope this doesn't tick anyone off too badly, and if it does, I > apologize. It's not my intention to offend, nor to start a prolonged > debate. > > Each year, there's a fundraiser for the list servers -- the service that > the Aeroelectric list and others reside on. Well, no disrespect to the guys > that run the service but I thought I'd get in an idea too: why don't we all > send a few bucks in the direction of Bob Nuckolls for a change. > > Bob gives us insights and information, along with personal instruction and > individual system designs for pretty much anything we throw at him, > practically every day of the year. His contribution to flight safety in > the OBAM world is immeasurably high, and to each of us individually, it's > invaluable. > > I can't begin to imagine how much this would have cost if I'd gone to my > local avionics shop and asked them for all this good stuff. So, this > Christmas I'm going to dispatch a bunch of dollars Bob's way as a small > token of thanks, and I'll be happy to do it. > > Clear skies! > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Seasonal cheer From: "George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ" If you simply must defy Bob's direct guidance, you might consider contributing to his enterprise by purchasing whatever quantity of The AeroElectric Connection publication suits your conscience and spreading the knowledge around your local aviation community. For example, a shiny new one for yourself, one to contribute to your favorite EAA chapter library, one to have on the shelf to gift a budding builder who comes to admire your project, etc. neal ============== Hear, hear! I agree with Sandy. With all respect to Mr. Nuckolls followup post gracefully declining the offer, I would have to say Bob is the single most valuable OBAM resource I know on the Internet. Web sites and email lists come and go, Bob's advice is priceless. How do we send a token of thanks? RF ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:15 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Seasonal cheer If anyone is feeling inclined to invest some cash in their list-server experiences, it should go to maintenance of the environment where it all happens. Know also that my needs and rewards for being here do not suffer for lack of cash and are being intellectually satisfied by your honorable participation. For that I thank you all . . . Bob . . . I want to take this opportunity to voice my sincere gratitude to you and Matt for this great forum. I have received many times over the contributions made to the list. Thanks, and a Happy Holiday Season to you, Roger ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: Fw: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection At 06:35 AM 11/3/2011, you wrote: >Bob, >The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with Z-30 and Z-32 >mixed in(dual battery and relay controlled E-bus). Two 16AH >batteries. Not all the wire sizes and CB/fuse sizes have been filled >in yet. Still a work in progress. Understand. Okay, let's look at your numbers. What are the load-analysis numbers for items on the e-bus? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RG Batteries - I learned something last night Last week I related the outcome of some tests performed on a 10+ year old battery in my stable of portable power sources. A 32 a.h. battery that once delivered 800+ cranking amps was down to about 300, yet the useful capacity of the battery was not much different than when the battery was new. My long adopted model of hundreds of parallel-series wired mini-cells suggested that 1/2 the cranking power translates to 1/2 capacity too. The test data argued with that model. Further, a number of folks here on the List reported similar experiences. I wrote to Skip Koss at Concorde who in turn passed it to one of his capable battery designers. Here's his reply: ------------------------- Skip & Bob, There are a variety of degradation modes of VRLA batteries, and the relationship between C1 capacity and High Rate (HR) performance depends on the degradation mode. Most of the time the C1 capacity and HR performance degrade equally, as Bob states below. This situation can occur if the degradation mode is due to electrolyte dry-out. Sometimes the C1 capacity degrades, but not the HR performance. This can occur if the active material degrades, but not the grids. Sometimes the HR performance degrades, but not the C1 capacity. This can occur if the positive grids becomes heavily corroded thereby increasing the internal impedance, but the active material is still in good condition. This last mode is probably what Bob experienced. We have seen this same result on some batteries returned from the field. Given the differing degradation modes, it should be apparent why a C1 capacity test must be used to establish airworthiness instead of a HR Load test. And if a battery passes the C1 capacity test but has degraded HR performance, it will be detected during engine start (prior to flight!). Of course, the best test method is to measure both the C1 capacity and HR performance, but battery shops normally do not have the capability to properly measure HR performance. Hope this helps! ------------------------ Indeed it does. In further conversation with Skip, the parallel-series analogy was quite valid for flooded batteries where entire cell-sites would fall out of a grid and fall to the bottom of the battery. Tightly compacted plates and insulators in the RG battery prevents cell contents from physically moving and gives rise to a new dual-path down the road to battery wear-out. Of course, we load test he battery every time we crank the engine but be aware that depending on a variety of factors, a poor cranking battery might still demonstrate useful performance in battery only operations. This new data will be included in 'Connection's 13th edition. Any day you go to bed knowing something you did not know that morning is a GOOD day. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Seasonal cheer At 11:37 AM 11/3/2011, you wrote: >TRS/DOJ" > >If you simply must defy Bob's direct guidance, you might consider >contributing to his enterprise by purchasing whatever quantity of The >AeroElectric Connection publication suits your conscience and spreading >the knowledge around your local aviation community. > >For example, a shiny new one for yourself, one to contribute to your >favorite EAA chapter library, one to have on the shelf to gift a budding >builder who comes to admire your project, etc. Good idea my friend! I could go for that. I do offer mini-cases of the printed 'Connection at the same price that teachers and my dealers pay. If folks would like to give a material boost to the grand scheme of things, purchasing a mini-case of books to hand out to fellow enthusiasts or curious young minds would have my whole-hearted approval. If folks can't go for a mini-case, order multiple single copies and put "hand-outs" in the comments box at the bottom and I'll give you the same per/copy price. See the Catalog page of the website. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:07 PM PST US From: Buckley William Subject: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection Most of these came from the components' docs, some from examples in the 'Connection', and a few are SWAG's. For the Nav/Comms I listed both at max load (ie transmitting). Its not realistic to transmit on both simultaneouly and in a battery only scenario one would be turned off anyway. However I want both to be available on the Ebus to allow for a really bad night if the alternator and one nav/comm quit. Perhaps it is overkill to list both nav/comms at max load for this exercise?? Also, the relays to power the Ebus are not listed. Here's the E-bus load list. Trim: 0.3 Lft Fwd Kneeboard Lt: 0.1 L&R Fuel Probes: 0.04 Inst Panel Lts: 0.5 Panel Fld Lts: 0.25 Dynon D180: 1.6 (Can op on internal batt ~1hr) Dynon D10A: 1.0 (Can op on internal batt ~1hr) TruTrak T&B: 0.5 Audio Panel: 1.0 Nav/Comm 1: 5.0 Nav/Comm 2: 5.0 Xpndr: 1.6 Left Panel Cig Lighter: 0.75 (SWAG load for handheld backup GPS or other) Fuel Boost/Prime: 1.5 Annunciator panel: 1.5 (8 LED's with controlling circuit module) --- On Thu, 11/3/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Subject: Re: Fw: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 12:46 PM > --> AeroElectric-List message > posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 06:35 AM 11/3/2011, you wrote: > > Bob, > > The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with > Z-30 and Z-32 mixed in(dual battery and relay controlled > E-bus). Two 16AH batteries. Not all the wire sizes and > CB/fuse sizes have been filled in yet. Still a work in > progress. > > Understand. Okay, let's look at your numbers. > What are the load-analysis numbers for items > on the e-bus? > > > > Bob . . . > > Lists This Month -- > Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > Raiser. Click on > out more about > Gifts provided > AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com > www.buildersbooks.com > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:11 PM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are much cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if ELTs are made non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The cheapest ELT I see on Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a lot for something I hope will never be used. Or do I shut up and pay? RF ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:08 PM PST US From: DeWitt Whittington Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? Ralph, We bought the ACK E-04 ELT and are installing it right now. $617.00 from Aircraft Spruce. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/elt406.php Dee At 05:38 PM 11/3/2011, you wrote: >Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are much >cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if ELTs are >made non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The cheapest ELT I see >on Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a lot for something I >hope will never be used. Or do I shut up and pay? > >RF DeWitt (Dee) Whittington 406 N Mulberry St Richmond, VA 23220-3320 (804) 358-4333 phone and fax SKYPE: hilltopkid dee.whittington@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:06 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? Ralph, I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative, they can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers to this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5 but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on the money. ELT's, autopilots,etc. are like an expensive insurance policy. You hope you never have to use it that way, but, when needed you would pay a 100x more for the saving service they provide. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Ralph Finch To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:38 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are much cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if ELTs are made non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The cheapest ELT I see on Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a lot for something I hope will never be used. Or do I shut up and pay? RF ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:44 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? From: "mmayfield" I think you will find that, like the case of transponders, any ELT fitted to any plane (experimental or otherwise) must comply with the relevant TSO. There are good reasons for this. It is, after all, supposed to comply with specific standards so that it meets the same specs and interfaces correctly with SAR organisations wherever in the world your plane happens to be. I believe "shutup and pay", as you say, is the answer. :) However there is nothing to stop you shopping around. AC Spruce isn't always the cheapest place to buy stuff! -------- Mike Your political opinions are noted. And ignored. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356849#356849 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:32 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for ~$100 if you shop around. I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony. I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search). Charlie On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > Ralph, > I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. > They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a > negative, they can lead to a longer search period because they only > send out an RF signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of > their receivers to this freq. and report when a signal is passed > over. At least that alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's > also still pump out 121.5 but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by > overhead satellite receivers and the new style ELT put out GPS > location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on the money. > ELT's, autopilots,etc. are like an expensive insurance policy. You > hope you never have to use it that way, but, when needed you would pay > a 100x more for the saving service they provide. Dave > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ralph Finch > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:38 PM > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: > non-TSO cheap ones? > > Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are > much cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if > ELTs are made non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The > cheapest ELT I see on Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a > lot for something I hope will never be used. Or do I shut up and pay? > > RF > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:37 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? 1. ELTs are required by reg to be TSO. Just like Transponders are required to be TSO, and for IFR flight GPS must be TSO. 2. 1st generation ELTs (TSO circa 1975)may not be used for new install in any aircraft. Only identical replacement of existing is allowed. Example Narco ELT10. 3. 2nd generation ELTs are legal for new install, TSO circa 1990. Most are under $200. Example ACK E-01. So beware which variety you get if you buy via Ebay. On 11/3/2011 4:54 PM, Charlie England wrote: > The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for > ~$100 if you shop around. > > I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble > transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony. > > I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement > it with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search). > > Charlie > > On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >> Ralph, >> I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. >> They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a >> negative, they can lead to a longer search period because they only >> send out an RF signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of >> their receivers to this freq. and report when a signal is passed >> over. At least that alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's >> also still pump out 121.5 but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by >> overhead satellite receivers and the new style ELT put out GPS >> location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on the money. >> ELT's, autopilots,etc. are like an expensive insurance policy. You >> hope you never have to use it that way, but, when needed you would >> pay a 100x more for the saving service they provide. Dave >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Ralph Finch >> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:38 PM >> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: >> non-TSO cheap ones? >> >> Non-TSO avionics such as GPS, autopilots, and glass panels are >> much cheaper than the TSO'd or certificated goods. I wonder if >> ELTs are made non-TSO'd for our experimental aircraft? The >> cheapest ELT I see on Aircraft Spruce is nearly $1000 which is a >> lot for something I hope will never be used. Or do I shut up and pay? >> >> RF >> > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:46 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? The new ELTs are 406Mhz, not 430. They do have to use mfr supplied antenna located as instructed to comply with TSO. On 11/3/2011 4:54 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble > transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony. > ** ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:49 PM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? I've done a bit more research. - The ACK E-04 does seem the cheapest 406MHz ELT available, and has GPS input. I emailed Ack, Inc. to see if it will use the last received GPS update for location; if not--if it needs an active datastream to retransmit location to the SAR satellite--then the GPS input seems fairly useless as I would suppose the coax from GPS to ELT is probably going to be broken in a crash. - A Kannad S1840501-02 406 AF Compact seems the cheapest 406MHz+integrated GPS around at $831 Aircraft Spruce. - The other possibility, as mentioned below, is cheapo 121.5 MHz unit for legality, with APRS or PLB to actually be found. I already mounted an APRS in a wing tip and fully intend to be running that (I got a Tech Amateur Radio license long ago). - Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to enter their countries? RF On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for ~$100 if you shop around. > > I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony. > > I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search). > > Charlie > > On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > Ralph, > I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative, they can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers to this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5 but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on the money. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:44 PM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? Got a very prompt reply: "The ELT will retain the last GPS coordinates for one minute when > disconnected from the GPS data source before it is activated and for 4 > hours after it is activate. > > Mike Akatiff" > That pretty much does it for me, I think I'll get that model. Legal to travel to other countries; much more assurance with the 406MHz model that in a crash the SAR system will be alerted; and a good chance they'll have your last position with the GPS input. RF On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Ralph Finch wrote: > I've done a bit more research. > > > - The ACK E-04 does seem the cheapest 406MHz ELT available, and has > GPS input. I emailed Ack, Inc. to see if it will use the last received GPS > update for location; if not--if it needs an active datastream to retransmit > location to the SAR satellite--then the GPS input seems fairly useless as I > would suppose the coax from GPS to ELT is probably going to be broken in a > crash. > - A Kannad S1840501-02 406 AF Compact seems the cheapest > 406MHz+integrated GPS around at $831 Aircraft Spruce. > - The other possibility, as mentioned below, is cheapo 121.5 MHz unit > for legality, with APRS or PLB to actually be found. I already mounted an > APRS in a wing tip and fully intend to be running that (I got a Tech > Amateur Radio license long ago). > - Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to > enter their countries? > > > RF > > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Charlie England > wrote: > > > > The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for > ~$100 if you shop around. > > > > I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble > transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony. > > > > I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it > with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search). > > > > Charlie > > > > On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > > Ralph, > > I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. > They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative, > they can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF > signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers > to this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that > alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5 > but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the > new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on > the money. > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:22 PM PST US From: "Lynn Riggs" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? Looks like the best place to get it is here: http://www.airsuppliers.com/shop/search.asp?searchterm=ACK-E04 Lynn Riggs riggs_la@yahoo.com 612-508-0988 http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p352107 http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p293990 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:01 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? Got a very prompt reply: "The ELT will retain the last GPS coordinates for one minute when disconnected from the GPS data source before it is activated and for 4 hours after it is activate. Mike Akatiff" That pretty much does it for me, I think I'll get that model. Legal to travel to other countries; much more assurance with the 406MHz model that in a crash the SAR system will be alerted; and a good chance they'll have your last position with the GPS input. RF On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Ralph Finch wrote: I've done a bit more research. * The ACK E-04 does seem the cheapest 406MHz ELT available, and has GPS input. I emailed Ack, Inc. to see if it will use the last received GPS update for location; if not--if it needs an active datastream to retransmit location to the SAR satellite--then the GPS input seems fairly useless as I would suppose the coax from GPS to ELT is probably going to be broken in a crash. * A Kannad S1840501-02 406 AF Compact seems the cheapest 406MHz+integrated GPS around at $831 Aircraft Spruce. * The other possibility, as mentioned below, is cheapo 121.5 MHz unit for legality, with APRS or PLB to actually be found. I already mounted an APRS in a wing tip and fully intend to be running that (I got a Tech Amateur Radio license long ago). * Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to enter their countries? RF On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for ~$100 if you shop around. > > I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony. > > I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search). > > Charlie > > On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > Ralph, > I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative, they can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers to this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5 but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on the money. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:42 PM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? Wow, that's a great price for sure. RF On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Lynn Riggs wrote: > Looks like the best place to get it is here:**** > > http://www.airsuppliers.com/shop/search.asp?searchterm=ACK-E04**** > > ** ** > > Lynn Riggs**** > > riggs_la@yahoo.com**** > > 612-508-0988**** > > http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p352107**** > > http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p293990**** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ralph Finch > *Sent:* Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:01 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO > cheap ones?**** > > ** ** > > Got a very prompt reply:**** > > "The ELT will retain the last GPS coordinates for one minute when > disconnected from the GPS data source before it is activated and for 4 > hours after it is activate.**** > > Mike Akatiff"**** > > > That pretty much does it for me, I think I'll get that model. Legal to > travel to other countries; much more assurance with the 406MHz model that > in a crash the SAR system will be alerted; and a good chance they'll have > your last position with the GPS input. > > RF **** > > ** ** > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Ralph Finch > wrote:**** > > I've done a bit more research. **** > > - The ACK E-04 does seem the cheapest 406MHz ELT available, and has > GPS input. I emailed Ack, Inc. to see if it will use the last received GPS > update for location; if not--if it needs an active datastream to retransmit > location to the SAR satellite--then the GPS input seems fairly useless as I > would suppose the coax from GPS to ELT is probably going to be broken in a > crash.**** > - A Kannad S1840501-02 406 AF Compact seems the cheapest > 406MHz+integrated GPS around at $831 Aircraft Spruce.**** > - The other possibility, as mentioned below, is cheapo 121.5 MHz unit > for legality, with APRS or PLB to actually be found. I already mounted an > APRS in a wing tip and fully intend to be running that (I got a Tech > Amateur Radio license long ago).**** > - Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to > enter their countries?**** > > > RF**** > > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Charlie England > wrote: > > > > The old 121.5's are indeed still legal, and typically available for > ~$100 if you shop around. > > > > I've heard (unverified) rumors that the new 430MHZ units have trouble > transmitting through tree canopies. Wouldn't that be expensive irony. > > > > I intend to use the old style in the plane I'm building, & supplement it > with an APRS (if you haven't heard of it, just do an internet search). > > > > Charlie > > > > On 11/03/2011 05:28 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > > Ralph, > > I believe that you can continue to use the older, 121.5Mhz., ELT's. > They are cheap, especially via eBay or similar. However, as a negative, > they can lead to a longer search period because they only send out an RF > signal. On the plus side, many Airlines tune one of their receivers > to this freq. and report when a signal is passed over. At least that > alerts the emergency agents. The newer ELT's also still pump out 121.5 > but, the the 430 freq. is monitored by overhead satellite receivers and the > new style ELT put out GPS location. Thus, searches are nearly pin point on > the money. > > > **** > > ** ** > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *www.aeroelectric.com* > > *www.buildersbooks.com* > > *www.homebuilthelp.com* > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:47 PM PST US From: Tim Andres Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: non-TSO cheap ones? On 11/3/2011 7:01 PM, Ralph Finch wrote: > Got a very prompt reply: > > "The ELT will retain the last GPS coordinates for one minute when > disconnected from the GPS data source before it is activated and > for 4 hours after it is activate. > > Mike Akatiff" > I installed one of these units and I really only have 1 complaint about it. The serial data, power & ground for the unit comes in thru a cheap plastic Male/Female DIN connector that will not "click" or lock together, it simply falls apart at the slightest pull, almost no resistance at all. I contacted them about this and was told "it's in the install manual, you are to tape it together"! Sure enough its in there and I missed it! Also, the pins in the same connector are the solder type and very tiny & difficult to solder. Following on a tip I read over at VAF I used female D-sub pins (HD?) crimped with the Daniels crimpers and just slid them onto the pins, then securing with heat shrink. I also used heat shrink over the DIN halves instead of tape, much better but still a flimsy setup to be sure. Bob K would have a few comments if he saw it! One more tip, you make a LED/Resistor test rig you make to verify the unit is receiving data and the blinks are very short duration, almost too fast to see. Don't give up if you don't see it blink at first, just look more closely. I thought I had a problem, but it turned out to be working, just hard to see. Tim ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:08 PM PST US From: Glen Matejcek Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Interesting story ZnCrO4! Sorry guys; I couldn't help myself.... Nomex undies snug! And, do not archive! Glen Matejcek ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.