---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/04/11: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:12 AM - Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (user9253) 2. 07:23 AM - Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters (Jeff Page) 3. 09:18 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 12:21 PM - Fw: Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Buckley William) 5. 04:30 PM - Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (user9253) 6. 10:46 PM - Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection From: "user9253" Question 1: Yes, the B&C S8009 40A relay is be suitable, IMHO. Question 2: For circuit protection, it not advisable to parallel fuses. One of the Dynons and one of the nav/coms can be moved to the main power bus. The estimated current draw of some of the loads seems to be on the high side. The Garmin GTX-327 typically uses about 1.1 amps, a nav/com about 1 amp receive and 3 amps transmit, depending on the brand. If some of the load is moved to the main bus, the load on the e-bus will drop to under 10 amps and can be protected with a 15 amp fuse fed with 14AWG. The 4AWG feeding the main power bus could be downsized to #6 unless it is a long run. 8AWG could even be used for very short runs. Even though the alternator is rated for 60 amps, it will normally be putting out a fraction of that. The ammeter shunt location will show battery charging current which is normally close to zero, pretty useless information. System voltage will indicate if the alternator is working or not. You might consider eliminating the shunt and using that Dynon D-180 screen space for displaying some other more useful parameter, perhaps temperature from a thermocouple. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356890#356890 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:30 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Emergency Locator Transmitters For the time being, a 406MHz ELT is not yet required in Canada. The new rules have been drafted, but they are taking quite some to actually get passed into law. Changes are still possible. As currently written, visiting aircraft will require a 406MHz ELT, so when it does become law, some folks are going to be quite surprised they are not legally permitted to fly from the lower 48 to Alaska. The law will be effective when passed, so without a lot of warning, 406MHz ELTs will be required here. Meanwhile ICAO rules require a commercial aircraft crossing an international border to carry at 406MHz. I highly doubt anyone In Canada or the USA is enforcing this. I you choose the 121.5MHz ELT for now, as you craft your airplane, include the necessary elements so that you merely need to swap out the ELT and the antenna when the time comes: Include a 4 wire plus ground shielded cable from the ELT location to the front panel for the controlling switch. The ELT mounting location must be strong, and must support a 100g load in all directions. Specifically, the mount shall have a static deflection no greater than 0.1 inches with 100 pounds of force applied in the most flexible direction. The antenna should be close to the ELT to minimize the length of the RG-142 (or equivalent) cable. It should be mounted at least 30 inches away from other antennas and the vertical stabilizer. The ground plane should have a radius of 24 inches in each direction. There will be a buzzer mounted very near the ELT as well. When you consider which ELT to purchase, consider the cost of replacing the batteries, since most of the new ELTs have 5 year batteries. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emergency Locator Transmitters: > non-TSO cheap ones? > - Though, don't Canada, Mexico, and the Bahama require a 406 ELT to > enter their countries? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection At 02:26 PM 11/3/2011, you wrote: Most of these came from the components' docs, some from examples in the 'Connection', and a few are SWAG's. For the Nav/Comms I listed both at max load (ie transmitting). Its not realistic to transmit on both simultaneouly and in a battery only scenario one would be turned off anyway. However I want both to be available on the Ebus to allow for a really bad night if the alternator and one nav/comm quit. Perhaps it is overkill to list both nav/comms at max load for this exercise?? Also, the relays to power the Ebus are not listed. Here's the E-bus load list. Okay, Joe beat me to it with some astute observatation cogent arguments. I'll expand on Joe's posting as follows: Trim: 0.3 (This is an intermittant load not significant to an energy study) Lft Fwd Kneeboard Lt: 0.1 L&R Fuel Probes: 0.04 Inst Panel Lts: 0.5 Panel Fld Lts: 0.25 (Do you need BOTH lighting systems in a endurance mode?) Dynon D180: 1.6 Dynon D10A: 1.0 TruTrak T&B: 0.5 (Are all of these instruments part of your Plan-B for alternator-out operations? It appears that the D180 has the broadest range of features and could be the e-bus favorite for alternator-out ops) Audio Panel: 1.0 Nav/Comm 1: 5.0 Nav/Comm 2: 5.0 (Surely one nav/com would suffice. Further, while the peak load may be 5A during transmit, only the receive mode is significant to the total energy requirements) Xpndr: 1.6 Left Panel Cig Lighter: 0.75 (SWAG load for handheld backup GPS or other) (Do you have a MAIN GPS?) Fuel Boost/Prime: 1.5 (also intermittent duty) Annunciator panel: 1.5 (8 LED's with controlling circuit module) (This is a LOT of of current for an LED annunciator) I think if you consider the normal running loads upon which you stack the occasional transient load your total load figures will get much better. Have you considered the SD-8 as an aux alternator to support alternator out ops? What's your calculated endurance, battery only?) ------------- Joe's Response with further food for thought ---------------------- At 09:08 AM 11/4/2011, you wrote: Question 1: Yes, the B&C S8009 40A relay is be suitable, IMHO. Question 2: For circuit protection, it not advisable to parallel fuses. One of the Dynons and one of the nav/coms can be moved to the main power bus. The estimated current draw of some of the loads seems to be on the high side. The Garmin GTX-327 typically uses about 1.1 amps, a nav/com about 1 amp receive and 3 amps transmit, depending on the brand. If some of the load is moved to the main bus, the load on the e-bus will drop to under 10 amps and can be protected with a 15 amp fuse fed with 14AWG. The 4AWG feeding the main power bus could be downsized to #6 unless it is a long run. 8AWG could even be used for very short runs. Even though the alternator is rated for 60 amps, it will normally be putting out a fraction of that. The ammeter shunt location will show battery charging current which is normally close to zero, pretty useless information. System voltage will indicate if the alternator is working or not. You might consider eliminating the shunt and using that Dynon D-180 screen space for displaying some other more useful parameter, perhaps temperature from a thermocouple. Joe -------- Joe Gores ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:58 PM PST US From: Buckley William Subject: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection Gents, Feedback very much appreciate. A bit more work to do on my end. Circling back to one of the original questions: for circuit protect of the ebus supply line, any harm in doing it with a fusible-link (14ga for 10ga supply)? William --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Circuit Protection > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 12:13 PM > --> AeroElectric-List message > posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 02:26 PM 11/3/2011, you wrote: > > > Most of these came from the components' docs, some from > examples in the 'Connection', and a few are SWAG's. For the > Nav/Comms I listed both at max load (ie transmitting). Its > not realistic to transmit on both simultaneouly and in a > battery only scenario one would be turned off anyway. > However I want both to be available on the Ebus to allow for > a really bad night if the alternator and one nav/comm quit. > Perhaps it is overkill to list both nav/comms at max load > for this exercise?? Also, the relays to power the Ebus are > not listed. Here's the E-bus load list. > > Okay, Joe beat me to it with some > astute observatation > cogent arguments. I'll expand on > Joe's posting as follows: > > Trim: 0.3 (This is an intermittant load not > significant > to an > energy study) > Lft Fwd Kneeboard Lt: 0.1 > L&R Fuel Probes: 0.04 > Inst Panel Lts: 0.5 > Panel Fld Lts: 0.25 (Do you need BOTH lighting > systems in a > > endurance mode?) > Dynon D180: 1.6 > Dynon D10A: 1.0 > TruTrak T&B: 0.5 (Are all of > these instruments part of your > > Plan-B for alternator-out operations? > It appears > > that the D180 has the broadest range of > features > > and could be the e-bus favorite for > alternator-out > > ops) > Audio Panel: 1.0 > Nav/Comm 1: 5.0 > Nav/Comm 2: 5.0 (Surely one nav/com > would suffice. Further, while > > the peak load may be 5A during > transmit, only > > the receive mode is significant to the > total > > energy requirements) > Xpndr: 1.6 > Left Panel Cig Lighter: 0.75 (SWAG load for handheld backup > GPS or other) > > (Do you have a MAIN GPS?) > > Fuel Boost/Prime: 1.5 (also intermittent duty) > > Annunciator panel: 1.5 (8 LED's with controlling circuit > module) > > (This is a LOT of of current for an LED > annunciator) > > > I think if you consider the normal running > loads > > upon which you stack the occasional transient > load > > your total load figures will get much better. > > > Have you considered the SD-8 as an aux > alternator > > to support alternator out ops? What's > your calculated > > endurance, battery only?) > > ------------- Joe's Response with further food for thought > ---------------------- > At 09:08 AM 11/4/2011, you wrote: > > > Question 1: Yes, the B&C S8009 40A relay is be > suitable, IMHO. > Question 2: For circuit protection, it not advisable to > parallel fuses. > > One of the Dynons and one of the nav/coms can be moved to > the main power bus. > The estimated current draw of some of the loads seems to be > on the high side. The Garmin GTX-327 typically uses > about 1.1 amps, a nav/com about 1 amp receive and 3 amps > transmit, depending on the brand. > If some of the load is moved to the main bus, the > load on the e-bus will drop to under 10 amps and can be > protected with a 15 amp fuse fed with 14AWG. > The 4AWG feeding the main power bus could be > downsized to #6 unless it is a long run. 8AWG could > even be used for very short runs. Even though the > alternator is rated for 60 amps, it will normally be putting > out a fraction of that. > The ammeter shunt location will show battery > charging current which is normally close to zero, pretty > useless information. System voltage will indicate if > the alternator is working or not. You might consider > eliminating the shunt and using that Dynon D-180 screen > space for displaying some other more useful parameter, > perhaps temperature from a thermocouple. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > Lists This Month -- > Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > Raiser. Click on > out more about > Gifts provided > AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com > www.buildersbooks.com > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection From: "user9253" > Okay, Joe beat me to it with some astute observatation cogent arguments. You deserve the credit, Bob, for being my mentor. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356927#356927 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection At 02:18 PM 11/4/2011, you wrote: > > >Gents, >Feedback very much appreciate. A bit more work to do on my end. >Circling back to one of the original questions: for circuit protect >of the ebus supply line, any harm in doing it with a fusible-link >(14ga for 10ga supply)? > >William Not recommended. Fusible links (like current limiters) are intended to protect HEAVY feeders subject to large, short time transients (like downstream breaker trips). There's no sin in fusing a wire for less than rated capability. I've often used upsized wires to get a lower voltage drop . . . without upsizing the protection. If your goal is to embrace the original design goals for the e-bus, then total loads need to be reduced to some value that affords HOURS of endurance battery only. What size batteries do you plan to carry? Just as an example: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/17AH_12V_Capacity_vs_Load.gif This set of performance curves for an 18 a.h. battery suggest that a NEW battery will carry a 5 amp e-bus for 2 hours. If you need that 2 hour goal to be met at an 80% end of service life, then you'd need to downsize to about 4 amps e-bus load. Your batteries need to be selected as a trade-off between equipment really necessary for comfortable en route operations and the amount of lead and plastic you're willing to drag around. This study in energy management illustrates the value in adding the SD-8 standby alternator. It's good for 8A for ANY number of hours thus saving limited energy in SMALLER batteries for approach to landing and arrival. That 3.5 pound alternator can replace a whole lot more pounds of lead. One battery and two alternators is a lot more attractive than one alternator and any number/size of batteries. 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