---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/15/11: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:20 AM - What's Your Contribution Used For? (Matt Dralle) 1. 07:42 AM - Re: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders (BobsV35B@aol.com) 2. 08:05 AM - B & C ?? (tomcostanza) 3. 08:27 AM - Re: B & C ?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: antenna connections (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:37 AM - Re: What's Your Contribution Used For? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:45 AM - Re: B & C ?? (James Kilford) 7. 09:08 AM - Re: B & C ?? (Dale Ellis) 8. 09:28 AM - Re: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders (Ralph & Maria Finch) 9. 09:55 AM - Re: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders (BobsV35B@aol.com) 10. 10:02 AM - Re: B & C ?? (Christopher SeeStone) 11. 10:38 AM - Re: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders (Ralph Finch) 12. 10:58 AM - Re: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders (BobsV35B@aol.com) 13. 11:25 AM - Alternator & starter (James Kilford) 14. 11:59 AM - Re: Alternator & starter (Charlie England) 15. 02:42 PM - Re: Alternator & starter (Robert Borger) 16. 03:17 PM - Jabiru 3300 Over Voltage (zqqmin) 17. 04:40 PM - Re: Alternator & starter (earl_schroeder@juno.com) 18. 05:44 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Over Voltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 09:47 PM - PTT shield connections (messydeer) 20. 10:23 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Over Voltage (David) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:13 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: What's Your Contribution Used For? Dear Listers, You might have wondered at some pointd, "What's my Contribution used for?" Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables... It provides for the expensive, commercial-grade Internet connection used on the List. It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades enabling the highest performance possible for List services such as the Archive Search Engine, List Browser, and the Web Forums. It pays for over 21 years (yeah, I really said *21* years) worth of on line archive data available for instant search and access. And, it offsets the many hours spent writing, developing, and maintaining the custom applications that power this List Service such as the List Browse, Search Engine, Forums, and Wiki. But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moderation, censorship, advertising, commercialism, SPAM, and computer viruses. It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables these aspects of Matronics List services. Please support it today with your List Contribution. Its one of the best investments you can make in your Sport! List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:48 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders Good Morning Dave, It might be more accurate to say: "FAR 91.215 tells you where you have to have a transponder." The vast majority of the air space within the USA and below ten thousand feet MSL does NOT require a transponder to be installed. As Always, It All Depends! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 11/15/2011 1:05:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com writes: FAR 91.215 says you have to have a transponder. Maybe that will change some day, but they've got a few years. Dave Saylor AirCrafters 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Ralph Finch <_ralphmariafinch@gmail.com_ (mailto:ralphmariafinch@gmail.com) > wrote: Assume I want ADS-B In and Out capability. In a new build--no legacy equipment--can I install ONLY a UAT on 978 MHz? or do I still need to also install at least a Mode-C transponder (1090 MHz)? _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:18 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: B & C ?? From: "tomcostanza" Does anyone know what's going on with the B&C website? -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358014#358014 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:38 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B & C ?? At 10:02 AM 11/15/2011, you wrote: > > >Does anyone know what's going on with the B&C website? Looks okay to me. What have you observed that prompts a question? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: antenna connections At 11:08 PM 11/14/2011, you wrote: > >K. > >Got the RS antenna. My only initial anal concern was the weight at >.20" diameter at the 22" mark. It tapered down to less than 1/8", >but that was near the end of the original 120". I've seen some com >antennas listed as 0.15" thick, so I gained 1.5 oz. Yup, that's called sifting through the options and evaluating the trade-offs. But it IS a robust antenna. This brings up another point. That antenna is not very compliant . . . I.e. it's stiff. Make sure you've got a robust doubler on the belly surface. >I bent it at ~8" to about 40 degrees after heating it with a >propane/air torch. Used a little $10 HF tubing bender. It wanted to >also put another bend real close to the base, but the bender config >would have made that real tough, so I increased the bend to 68 >degrees at the original location. Sounds like a reasonable trade off . . . >I ran a scotchbrite roloc over it to get the discoloration out, >which was fairly easy to do. Will this area be as stain resistant as >the other areas? When I got my EGT probes, the bayonets were welded >to hose clamps. Around the welded area there was rust. Heating a material to a ductile state does not change it's alloy. If it was 'stainless' to begin with, it's still stainless. >Clearance under my Sonex TD is ~19" at the planned location of the >antenna. Vertical for the antenna is ~13", giving me 6" ground >clearance. I also just bought that base connector off eBay. > >This has been the type of project I really like. Doing something >simple and saving money. $22 for the antenna, $5 for the mount, $2 >for the BNC-UHF adapter at Frys. That compares to over $65 just for >the antenna at ACS, which still needs more bending to go on the >belly. Thanks, Bob! Pleased that you've been able to adapt the simple-ideas for one recipe and craft one of your own. You could take the scraps of antenna left over and craft two more to offer to others here on the list. By the time you've made the third one, you'll be way down on the learning curve and more of an authority on that idea than I am, I've only made the one you see in the article. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What's Your Contribution Used For? At 02:13 AM 11/15/2011, you wrote: > > >Dear Listers, > >You might have wondered at some pointd, "What's my Contribution used for?" > Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables... >It provides for the expensive, commercial-grade Internet connection used on > the List. It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades e >nabling the highest performance possible for List services such as the Arch >ive Search Engine, List Browser, and the Web Forums. It pays for over 21 y >ears (yeah, I really said *21* years) worth of on line archive data availab >le for instant search and access. And, it offsets the many hours spent wri >ting, developing, and maintaining the custom applications that power this L >ist Service such as the List Browse, Search Engine, Forums, and Wiki. > >But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and >your peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moder >ation, censorship, advertising, commercialism, SPAM, and computer viruses. Matt . . . some time ago we had some pictures of your hardware racks but I've misplaced them. Could you send me some shots of the facility to give us some sense of size? I'll combine those pictures into a little monograph to keep posted on aeroelectric.com. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B & C ?? From: James Kilford It's okay from this side of the pond. I've not been there for a while, and the new version is great, especially the new "Quick Facts" PDFs. Cheers, James On 15 November 2011 16:24, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 10:02 AM 11/15/2011, you wrote: >> >> >> >> Does anyone know what's going on with the B&C website? > > Looks okay to me. What have you observed that prompts > a question? > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B & C ?? From: Dale Ellis http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx site seems to be working for me. Dale do not archive On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:02 AM, tomcostanza wrote: > > Does anyone know what's going on with the B&C website? > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358014#358014 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:38 AM PST US From: "Ralph & Maria Finch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders @Old Bob: true enough.I should have phrased my question: Assume I want ADS-B In and Out capability AND want to fly in Class C and D airspace. In a new build--no legacy equipment--can I install ONLY a UAT on 978 MHz? or do I still need to also install at least a Mode-C transponder (1090 MHz)? Then I think the answer is, I need a Mode-C transponder and UAT; or, Mode-S transponder, and ADS-B receiver. Correct? RF From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:37 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders Good Morning Dave, It might be more accurate to say: "FAR 91.215 tells you where you have to have a transponder." The vast majority of the air space within the USA and below ten thousand feet MSL does NOT require a transponder to be installed. As Always, It All Depends! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 11/15/2011 1:05:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com writes: FAR 91.215 says you have to have a transponder. Maybe that will change some day, but they've got a few years. Dave Saylor AirCrafters 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Ralph Finch wrote: Assume I want ADS-B In and Out capability. In a new build--no legacy equipment--can I install ONLY a UAT on 978 MHz? or do I still need to also install at least a Mode-C transponder (1090 MHz)? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:35 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders Good Afternoon RF, That one is beyond my sphere of knowledge, though I THINK you are correct. I have not studied the requirements for the UAT or ADS-B in or out. As an aside, I know I will install nothing in my airplane that is not required to be installed by current regulations. If I could get by with it, I would NOT install an ELT of either type nor a transponder of any sort. My experience has been that by the time mandatory devices are required to be installed, they generally have substantially reduced prices and contain better and more reliable components. The very first 64 code transponders were over 14 thousand bucks. And that was back when you could buy a Bonanza for about the same price. After the airlines and corporate airplanes bought those, Wilcox came out with one for only 7 grand. By the time we little guys were forced to instal l them if we wanted to fly IFR in busy airspace, they were up to over one thousand codes and priced under a thousand bucks. Plus, they were smaller , lighter, and used less power. I think it pays to wait. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 11/15/2011 11:29:45 A.M. Central Standard Time, ralphmariafinch@gmail.com writes: @Old Bob: true enoughI should have phrased my question: Assume I want ADS-B In and Out capability AND want to fly in Class C and D airspace. In a new build--no legacy equipment--can I install ONLY a UAT on 978 MHz? or do I still need to also install at least a Mode-C transponder (1090 MHz)? Then I think the answer is, I need a Mode-C transponder and UAT; or, Mode-S transponder, and ADS-B receiver. Correct? RF ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B & C ?? From: Christopher SeeStone Tom... Seems to be working fine. http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx Chris Stone RV-8s in OR > > Does anyone know what's going on with the B&C website? > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358014#358014 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:32 AM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders Very true Old Bob! I too will wait until the latest possible moment to buy and install the goodies. But, I am installing antennas now, while the fuselage is easy to get at, and am anticipating what antennas might be needed. I've decided to put in both a 1090 MHz transponder antenna and a 978 MHz UAT antenna; if I'm wrong, little time and money lost. Thanks for your input. RF On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, wrote: > ** > Good Afternoon RF, > > That one is beyond my sphere of knowledge, though I THINK you are correct. > I have not studied the requirements for the UAT or ADS-B in or out. > > As an aside, I know I will install nothing in my airplane that is not > required to be installed by current regulations. If I could get by with it, > I would NOT install an ELT of either type nor a transponder of any sort. > > My experience has been that by the time mandatory devices are required to > be installed, they generally have substantially reduced prices and contain > better and more reliable components. > > The very first 64 code transponders were over 14 thousand bucks. And that > was back when you could buy a Bonanza for about the same price. > > After the airlines and corporate airplanes bought those, Wilcox came out > with one for only 7 grand. By the time we little guys were forced to > install them if we wanted to fly IFR in busy airspace, they were up to over > one thousand codes and priced under a thousand bucks. Plus, they were > smaller, lighter, and used less power. > > I think it pays to wait. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:11 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about ADS-B In/Out and Transponders Sounds good to Me! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 11/15/2011 12:39:34 P.M. Central Standard Time, ralphmariafinch@gmail.com writes: Very true Old Bob! I too will wait until the latest possible moment to buy and install the goodies. But, I am installing antennas now, while the fuselage is easy to get at, and am anticipating what antennas might be needed. I've decided to put in both a 1090 MHz transponder antenna and a 978 MHz UAT antenna; if I'm wrong, little time and money lost. Thanks for your input. RF On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, <_BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) > wrote: Good Afternoon RF, That one is beyond my sphere of knowledge, though I THINK you are correct. I have not studied the requirements for the UAT or ADS-B in or out. As an aside, I know I will install nothing in my airplane that is not required to be installed by current regulations. If I could get by with it, I would NOT install an ELT of either type nor a transponder of any sort. My experience has been that by the time mandatory devices are required to be installed, they generally have substantially reduced prices and contain better and more reliable components. The very first 64 code transponders were over 14 thousand bucks. And that was back when you could buy a Bonanza for about the same price. After the airlines and corporate airplanes bought those, Wilcox came out with one for only 7 grand. By the time we little guys were forced to install them if we wanted to fly IFR in busy airspace, they were up to over one thousand codes and priced under a thousand bucks. Plus, they were smaller, lighter, and used less power. I think it pays to wait. Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator & starter From: James Kilford Gents, I'm getting close to sorting out a 40A alternator and starter for my O-235-engined Jodel D150 project. My instinct would be to go with B&C versions of both, but any observations or alternative suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in anticipation, James ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:11 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator & starter On 11/15/2011 1:22 PM, James Kilford wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James Kilford > > Gents, > > I'm getting close to sorting out a 40A alternator and starter for my > O-235-engined Jodel D150 project. My instinct would be to go with B&C > versions of both, but any observations or alternative suggestions > would be greatly appreciated. > > Many thanks in anticipation, > > James Great products, but a Buick (or even a Chevy) will get you there just as reliably as a Cadillac... ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator & starter From: Robert Borger James, I have used B&C components on several projects including the Little Toot I'm presently building. Nothing but sterling service from the folks at B&C. I will continue to use their products and services on any future project. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Nov 15, 2011, at 1:22 PM, James Kilford wrote: > > Gents, > > I'm getting close to sorting out a 40A alternator and starter for my > O-235-engined Jodel D150 project. My instinct would be to go with B&C > versions of both, but any observations or alternative suggestions > would be greatly appreciated. > > Many thanks in anticipation, > > James ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:14 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 3300 Over Voltage From: "zqqmin" Need some help. First please understand that electricity is NOT my bag! I have read Bob Knuckolls book, I just wish I understood it! I have a Sonex with a Jabiru 3300 engine. I see voltages ranging from 12.3 at idle to over 16 volts at climb power! I talked with Jabiru and they suggested I change the yellow wire from the voltage regulator (control voltage) to the main bus from the + side of the capacitor (see attached schematic) to read "cleaner" voltage. I did this and I now get voltages of 16 volts at cruise power! I have installed Bob Knuckolls "crowbar over voltage" circuit from B&C. I have never tripped the over voltage circuit (5A C/B) BUT, I have blown the 10A fuse (twice) in the master switch circuit. I reads the voltage in 3 places, the MGL Enigma EFIS, the MGL V10 Comm radio and the MicroAir Transponder....they all read the same. I do NOT have an ammeter. BTW, I can control the voltage by turning on the landing lights. Then I get about 12.6v at climb power. I read the Jabiru manual and it tells me the voltage regulator should output 14 + or - .8 volts at cruise power. Is my schematic correct or do I have an error??? I think I have a bad voltage regulator. I have 18.3 hours of time in the phase 1 testing. Thanks in advance. -------- Dale A. Gray Sonex N506DG Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358062#358062 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dales_schematic_204.jpg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:59 PM PST US From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator & starter Hi James, I use both B & C products on my 320 with no regrets. I replaced a less expensive 'Ford' alternator and a 'Toyota' starter. B & C are good folks! Earl Gents, I'm getting close to sorting out a 40A alternator and starter for my O-235-engined Jodel D150 project. My instinct would be to go with B&C versions of both, but any observations or alternative suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in anticipation, James ================================== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 3300 Over Voltage At 05:13 PM 11/15/2011, you wrote: I have a Sonex with a Jabiru 3300 engine. I see voltages ranging from 12.3 at idle to over 16 volts at climb power! These small alternators produce no useable power at idle. Hence your 12.3 reading is what the BATTERY is supplying. If you EVER have 16 volts, the regualtor is not doing it's job either because it is bad . . . or wired wrong. I talked with Jabiru and they suggested I change the yellow wire from the voltage regulator (control voltage) to the main bus from the + side of the capacitor (see attached schematic) to read "cleaner" voltage. I did this and I now get voltages of 16 volts at cruise power! Okay, my best guess is that the rectifier/regulator is bad. I have installed Bob Knuckolls "crowbar over voltage" circuit from B&C. I have never tripped the over voltage circuit (5A C/B) BUT, I have blown the 10A fuse (twice) in the master switch circuit. You need to look at the diagram in the 'Connection again. That's NOT a 10A fuse upstream of the 5A breaker but a fusible link. A 10A fuse will open faster than a 5A breaker when the crowbar module trips. So, if you've popped some fuses, the OVM is on confirming what your voltmeter has already told you. The factory adjusted trip point for the 14V OVM is 16.4 volts. I reads the voltage in 3 places, the MGL Enigma EFIS, the MGL V10 Comm radio and the MicroAir Transponder....they all read the same. They must be working. I do NOT have an ammeter. Don't need one. BTW, I can control the voltage by turning on the landing lights. Then I get about 12.6v at climb power. That's probably because you've depressed the system voltage by overloading the alternator. I read the Jabiru manual and it tells me the voltage regulator should output 14 + or - .8 volts at cruise power. Is my schematic correct or do I have an error??? I think I have a bad voltage regulator. I think so too. You perhaps understand more than you think! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:15 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: PTT shield connections From: "messydeer" Bob: I'm putting a PTT switch in my stick. I understand that the two ptt wires are connected to the tip and sleeve leads of the mic jack. I thought some folks shielded these wires, so I figured I'd use two conductor shielded wire for this. If it's not a bad idea to shield these wires, where and to what is the shield connected? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358085#358085 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:53 PM PST US From: David Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 3300 Over Voltage First, suspect the voltmeter. Get a (calibrated) second meter and check it out. Easy to do that. Ammeters are cheap. Please install one, at least temporarily until this problem is solved. It does sound as if the voltage regulator is not cooperating fully. simple, but that is all I know is simple stuff. David M. zqqmin wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "zqqmin" > > Need some help. First please understand that electricity is NOT my bag! I have read Bob Knuckolls book, I just wish I understood it! > > I have a Sonex with a Jabiru 3300 engine. I see voltages ranging from 12.3 at idle to over 16 volts at climb power! I talked with Jabiru and they suggested I change the yellow wire from the voltage regulator (control voltage) to the main bus from the + side of the capacitor (see attached schematic) to read "cleaner" voltage. I did this and I now get voltages of 16 volts at cruise power! I have installed Bob Knuckolls "crowbar over voltage" circuit from B&C. I have never tripped the over voltage circuit (5A C/B) BUT, I have blown the 10A fuse (twice) in the master switch circuit. I reads the voltage in 3 places, the MGL Enigma EFIS, the MGL V10 Comm radio and the MicroAir Transponder....they all read the same. I do NOT have an ammeter. BTW, I can control the voltage by turning on the landing lights. Then I get about 12.6v at climb power. > > I read the Jabiru manual and it tells me the voltage regulator should output 14 + or - .8 volts at cruise power. Is my schematic correct or do I have an error??? I think I have a bad voltage regulator. I have 18.3 hours of time in the phase 1 testing. > > Thanks in advance. > > -------- > Dale A. Gray > Sonex N506DG > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358062#358062 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/dales_schematic_204.jpg > > > -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ...democracy and a republic can function only in a firm partnership with morality and religion. -- John Adams. Indeed. 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