---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/26/11: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:25 AM - Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom (user9253) 2. 07:27 AM - Re: Schematic Drawings (Paul Zimmer) 3. 07:56 AM - Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom (messydeer) 4. 08:10 AM - Re: Schematic Drawings (tomcostanza) 5. 08:26 AM - SD-8 installation (Thomas Barter) 6. 09:24 AM - Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom (user9253) 7. 09:48 AM - Re: KX170/175 Installation Manual (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:56 AM - Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom (messydeer) 9. 10:04 AM - Re: KX170/175 Installation Manual (Jeff Page) 10. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 10:30 AM - Re: SD-8 installation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 11:45 AM - Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom (messydeer) 13. 11:53 AM - Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom (user9253) 14. 12:54 PM - Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom (user9253) 15. 03:24 PM - =?utf-8?Q?OT_=93_Garmin_power_data_cable_available? () 16. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Schematic Drawings (Paul Zimmer) 17. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: KX170/175 Installation Manual (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:52 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom From: "user9253" About those diodes in the RST 442-3060 schematic. They block 12 volts from the relay coils from getting into the radio PTT circuit. > Hadn't thought about this before, but I think the PTT relay grounds would go to a/c ground, and the other 4 would go to the radio jack sleeve, right? Sounds OK to me. Another option besides socket mount relays are PC board mount. Digikey has many of those rated at less than 2 amps. PC type can be mounted on perf board. Radio Shack sells it. I have even seen relays taped to a wire bundle with no mounting hardware, not that I recommend doing that. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359308#359308 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schematic Drawings From: Paul Zimmer I've changed my Email address that I subscribed to Matronics with, so this may screw up the continuity of the thread. Please see below. On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Paul Zimmer wrote : > > OK. So my always on battery bus isn't really a battery bus, rather an > always on non-battery-bus bus (a lame attempt at humor). So what to > do? Perhaps if you would briefly discuss the reasons behind the design > point for not bringing a non-switched fat-wire into the cabin would > facilitate understanding. > > From a neophyte's perspective (me), given the stated reason for not doing > so being crash safety, it seems the concern is one of the fat-wire being > compromised in a crash, possibly resulting in a short circuit, in a wire > capable of conducting a large number of electrons simultaneously. Not a > good thing when considering all of the bad things that could happen as a > result. Is this is a fair assessment of the concern or is there more to it > (you used the phrase "protected with fast devices", the meaning of which > escapes me)? > > If this *is* the primary design consideration, wouldn't the addition of a > circuit breaker (or other device) near the battery accomplish the same > thing, as long as the device was sized less than the current > carrying capacty of the fat-wire? The idea of additing another contactor > or relay makes no sense if the bus is to be always on, and if it's not > going to be always on, then the devices may as well be moved to either th e > main or essential bus as most appropriate. > > Thanks once again for your time and insight. > > Paul > On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> >> >> >> At 10:11 AM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >> >>> Bob, drawing Z-12 shows the conductor from the battery contactor to the >>> battery bus as being a 12 AWG conductor of 6 inches length or less (rev . K >>> ' 04/20/05). I understand the reason for the short conductor is for crash >>> safety for the always on buss. However, I=92m using panel mounted circ uit >>> breakers for my three power busses (main, essential, battery) and so >>> adhering to the 6 inch specification isn=92t possible. What are your >>> thoughts of the addition of a properly rated circuit breaker or fusible >>> link on the engine side of the firewall to protect the remaining conduc tor >>> the length of which I estimate will be 36 to 48 inches depending on >>> location of the electrical conductor firewall penetration? By the way , my >>> Ebus will have one PMAG (one PMAG, and one conventional mag installatio n), >>> clock, cabin lights, fuel boost, and switched Ebus alternate feed on th e >>> battery buss. >>> >> >> If your "battery" bus is on the panel, then it's not a battery >> bus but yet another bus tasked with different loads. Its >> long feeder would be fitted with another battery contactor. >> >> A battery bus is always hot, drives wires that are always >> hot but protected with fast devices rated below the legacy >> crash safety design rules . . . and located AT the battery. >> Once you depart from this convention, it's some other kind of bus >> that gets treated like other fat-wire fed busses in the >> airplane. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> =====**=================== ===========**= .com/contribution> =====**=================== ===========**= //www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =====**=================== ===========**= =====**=================== ===========**= .com/contribution> =====**=================== ===========**= >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:42 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom From: "messydeer" K. Perf board? Is that the same as breadboard? I looked at that and saw the word 'temporary' and went no further. I looked up 'perforated board' at RS, which might be different. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103804 I could insert the relay terminals through the holes and solder wires to them from the backside and use a couple spacer posts to keep the exposed solder off the metal panel? I also wonder about the relay terminal wiring diagram. The attached is typical. If taken literally, if power is applied to the coil, it would move only one of the switches and not the other. No power would mean 4 contacts 6 and 13 contacts 11. With power, either 4 would go to 8, or 13 would go to 9, but not both?? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359312#359312 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dpdt_relay_terminal_wiring_164.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/perf_board_relay_mount_198.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:41 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic Drawings From: "tomcostanza" > Once you depart from this convention, it's some other kind of bus > that gets treated like other fat-wire fed busses in the > airplane. Ditto Paul's question. And does this mean it should be protected? I didn't want to run 4 branch circuit wires through the firewall, so I put a small fuse panel inside the cabin, fed by a wire connected directly to the battery. I assume this should be protected. But Z-11 has a 6AWG wire from the battery contactor to the Main bus and shows no protection. (I'm soo confused!) Perhaps a review of "fat wire" protection would be in order. Or just point us to the relevant section in The Connection. Thanks. -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359314#359314 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:21 AM PST US From: "Thomas Barter" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 installation As I prepare to begin the installation of Z-13/8 on my airplane, a few questions arise. Figure Z-25, the SD-8 with self excitation, shows a 12 AWG and a 14 AWG lead connected to a single male Fast-On terminal on the bridge rectifier. Is this done with a single terminal, or is there a suitable "piggyback" terminal available that would facilitate this? I have seen such terminals around, but they are not high quality AMP style terminals. Is there another way to terminate the leads onto a single tab and still be able to separate them if either the SD-8 or regulator should need to be removed? Figure Z-25 shows the dynamo leads as a twisted pair, where as the other figures do not. Not at all difficult to do, but is it necessary? If a connector is needed for the four leads from the SD-8 voltage regulator, is a Molex type connector suitable for use with the regulator on the engine side of the firewall? Finally, the preliminary version R of Z-13/8 calls out an ATC style inline fuse instead of a fuselink at the battery contactor. Any further insight on this matter? Regards, Tom Barter Kesley, IA Avid Magnum O-320 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:49 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom From: "user9253" Different manufacturers could have various names for their products. To me, a breadboard has spring loaded sockets to plug parts into. A perforated board is what I had in mind, similar to the Radio Shack one that you referenced. Although soldered wires on the bottom of the perf board do not look good compared to a printed circuit board, it is a quick and easy way to make a circuit. But nobody is going to see it anyway. The important thing is that the project is mechanically and electrically sound. There are also ready-made generic printed circuit boards that may or may not have traces suitable for mounting relays. Digikey sells perforated board, i.e, 3396K-ND, and V2018-ND. See http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Vector%20PDFs/Vectorbord%20Circbord.pdf It appears that V2018-ND has strips of copper on the back side for soldering parts and wires that are located on the top side. Perhaps someone who has experience with these boards will comment. If suitable, this type of board will make a nice looking project. The wiring diagram that you attached looks like one that might be printed on the side of a relay. It is a schematic to show how to connect wires. A schematic does not necessarily show the actual physical layout. I would be very surprised if both sets of contacts did not operate simultaneously. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359324#359324 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:45 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KX170/175 Installation Manual At 11:25 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: > >do not archive > >I'll try to get it done, a little at a time. You're a gentleman and a scholar . . . I appreciate it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom From: "messydeer" Yes, I just saw those boards at digikey. Of the two you mentioned, one is insulated, no plated holes. The other says 'continuous bus', which may not be what I need. At least I don't understand it. There's also another on the circbord.pdf link, #8029, which has plated holes. If I used the insulated non-plated one, soldering the terminals from the backside would hold the relay to the board in tension. With the plated one, I'd also have the terminals soldered directly to the plated board. Would the non-plated board connection be strong enough? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359332#359332 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:24 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: KX170/175 Installation Manual Bob, I just sent the KX170/175 Installation Manual to your email address. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > Time: 08:35:13 PM PST US > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: AeroElectric-List: KX170/175 Installation Manual > A couple years ago, somebody here on the List offered > me a .pdf copy of the King KX170 installation manual. > > In the Matronics archives, there's a note where I posted > availability of that document in the installation data > feature of my website. > > Now, for some reason unbeknownst to me, I don't it it > either on my website or on my hard-drive. > > If somebody has access to this document (or any > other vintage installation manuals) in .pdf, I'd > be pleased to have copies for sharing. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom At 11:21 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: > >Different manufacturers could have various names for their >products. To me, a breadboard has spring loaded sockets to plug >parts into. A perforated board is what I had in mind, similar to >the Radio Shack one that you referenced. Although soldered wires on >the bottom of the perf board do not look good compared to a printed >circuit board, it is a quick and easy way to make a circuit. But >nobody is going to see it anyway. The important thing is that the >project is mechanically and electrically sound. I've dug out the internal schematics for the RST intercom and discovered that this is an INTERCOM with no integration-friendly features for tying it to one or more radios. As an intercom, I'm mystified as to the installation instructions that recommend opening the mic audio leads to each mic along with the PTT signal. I.e. a spring loaded, 2-pole, normally open push-button DPST OFF-(ON). If one adheres to this configuration, then it seems that the value of an adjustable silencing system (VOX, squelch, etc) is negated . . . the existence of these switches in the mic audio leads makes it a Push-to-Talk Intercom . . . not a VOX intercom. A study of the microphone input circuits to the intercom shows that power to run the microphone's electronics is provided internally to the intercom via the 2.2K resistors tied to the mic leads from the 8v supply. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/RST/RST-442.pdf Emacs! However, there are PILOT MIC OUT and COPILOT MIC OUT pins offered that "loop through" the intercom to service any other audio need . . . ostensibly a comm radio. This presents a bit of a quandry for the system integrator. To allow both mics of a two-pilot system to access the radio, one needs to tie the two signals together. Which puts 2 mic power sources in the intercom arm wrestling with each other and the third power source in the radio. Of course, breaking the mic audio lines with the PTT switch breaks one of those pathways while the system is in use via the other pathway. My suggestion: No relays, no DPST, OFF-(ON) buttons. Find connectors that mate with the pendant cables coming out of the intercom (Molex or Mate-m-Lock?) and set all that octopus of headset cables aside. Wire microphones as always-hot signal leads to their respective inputs on the intercom. Use the VOX system to control background noise when not speaking. Take the mic audio out leads from the intercom to a SPDT, ON-ON switch so that audio TO the DX-15 mic can be either pilot, co-pilot but not both. Wire as many single pole, SPST OFF-(ON) push buttons as desired to the DX-15 PTT line. I'll convert this description to a sketch as soon as I get some other chores taken care of. This is why the Dynon folks seemed to get stand-offish when asked for advice. Without having both access to internal working details of the intercom -AND- time to offer what amounts to gratis, customized system integration services, the guy didn't have a clue as to what MIGHT work. Even my suggestion has some risk that will have to shake out on the bench: While talking on the radio, the 2.2K mic-power bias resistors will be in parallel with what ever power comes from the DX-15. I'm surprised that those resistors are so large . . . their deleterious effects on the DX-15 audio may well be minimal. At the same time, it's possible that audio heard over the intercom will take a jump in perceived volume when transmitting. If that happens, we'll need to go to plan-B. In any case, I think a y-adapter only adds to the snarl of snakes generally associated with loose-in-the-cockpit intercom systems. It seems prudent to simplify this wiring to the greatest extent possible. It would be helpful to know the style of connector depicted in the RST drawing as "P101". A close-up photo would be useful. I think Jim was fond of the Molex mini nylon connectors back then but I need to confirm this. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:09 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 installation At 10:22 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: >As I prepare to begin the installation of Z-13/8 on my airplane, a >few questions arise. > > Figure Z-25, the SD-8 with self excitation, shows a 12 AWG and > a 14 AWG lead connected to a single male Fast-On terminal on the > bridge rectifier. Is this done with a single terminal, or is there > a suitable "piggyback" terminal available that would > facilitate this? I have seen such terminals around, but they are > not high quality AMP style terminals. Is there another way to > terminate the leads onto a single tab and still be able to separate > them if either the SD-8 or regulator should need to be removed? A yellow-PDGE terminal will accept both wires in a single crimp. http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/696371-1/696371-1-ND/2258865 > > Figure Z-25 shows the dynamo leads as a twisted pair, where as > the other figures do not. Not at all difficult to do, but is it necessary? no, but keep them together. > > If a connector is needed for the four leads from the SD-8 > voltage regulator, is a Molex type connector suitable for use with > the regulator on the engine side of the firewall? I'd rather see knife splices and heat shrink in those leads than any sort of connector. http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/320566/A27474-ND/292649 > > Finally, the preliminary version R of Z-13/8 calls out an ATC > style inline fuse instead of a fuselink at the battery > contactor. Any further insight on this matter? ATC30 in-line is fine and will be recommened in the future. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom From: "messydeer" > As an intercom, I'm mystified as to the installation > instructions that recommend opening the mic audio > leads to each mic along with the PTT signal. I.e. > a spring loaded, 2-pole, normally open push-button > DPST OFF-(ON). > > If one adheres to this configuration, then it seems > that the value of an adjustable silencing > system (VOX, squelch, etc) is negated . . . the > existence of these switches in the mic audio leads > makes it a Push-to-Talk Intercom . . . not a VOX > intercom. I thought this and all intercoms could function independently from the radio. Thought it would work even if there wasn't a radio connected. The vox and/or squelch of the intercom would work in a closed system between the two headsets. I also thought placing these switches for the PTT's and mic's would not effect the intercom, since they are added between the intercom and the radio, not between the intercom and the headsets. > I'll > convert this description to a sketch as soon > as I get some other chores taken care of. This would be very helpful. I tore apart the intercom box a few days ago and plan to mount just the squelch, volume and pilot/all controls permanently to the panel. I'll cut off all the wires to the Molex connections to be able to put everything behind the panel. The only cables coming out into view would be those connecting directly with the handheld radio mounted at the corner of the instrument panel and side panel. This would be the power, mic/ptt, and headphone, along with the antenna cable. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359345#359345 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rst_442_intercom_connections_458.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:58 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom From: "user9253" > As an intercom, I'm mystified as to the installation instructions that recommend opening the mic audio leads to each mic along with the PTT signal. I.e. a spring loaded, 2-pole, normally open push-button DPST OFF-(ON). > > If one adheres to this configuration, then it seems that the value of an adjustable silencing system (VOX, squelch, etc) is negated . . . the existence of these switches in the mic audio leads makes it a Push-to-Talk Intercom . . . not a VOX intercom. Bob, The RST documentation makes it hard to understand whether it is referring to MIC audio input to the intercom or the audio output from the intercom. It took me awhile to realize that the questions that Dan was asking was about the output interface between the intercom and the hand-held radio. The headsets and MICs are plugged directly into the intercom. So as far as the intercom is concerned, the MICs are always connected. The relay circuit that I suggested is an interface between the intercom and the hand-held radio. The relays do not open the headset MIC circuit to the intercom. The MICs are always hot. The relays choose which intercom audio output to connect to the hand-held radio. > . . .set all that octopus of headset cables aside . . . . It seems prudent to simplify this wiring to the greatest extent possible. I agree with you. It reminds me of the rat's nest of wires behind my computer. :D Perhaps Dan will figure out a way to install it so that all wires are behind the panel except for the cable that plugs into the radio. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359347#359347 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:21 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: PTT Y adapter for RST intercom From: "user9253" Dan, I just noticed that Digikey has a wiring diagram of the V2018-ND board. http://www.vectorelect.com/Product/Circbord/Layout/8022%20Layout.pdf The pins on a relay like Z768-ND will match the holes of the board. Scratch a vertical line through the copper traces. Mount the relay so that it straddles the scratched line. Insert wires from the same side as the relay. Solder the relays and wires to copper side of the board. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359349#359349 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:58 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: =?utf-8?Q?OT_=93_Garmin_power_data_cable_available? Hi all, I have a new, sealed, Garmin power data cable, Garmin P/N 010-10082-00, leftover from a previous project. It is compatible w/196, 295, 296 and a number of earlier models (but not 396/496) it's a GPS connector on one end terminating to bare wires on the other end. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. Rumen rd2 AT dejazzd DOT com do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic Drawings From: Paul Zimmer Tom, I'm not sure what you mean when you ask if it should br protected. I'm suggesting a breaker on the forward side of the firewall, protecting a fat wire that would enter the cabin, powering an always on "Battery Bus". On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 11:08 AM, tomcostanza wrote: > > > > > Once you depart from this convention, it's some other kind of bus > > that gets treated like other fat-wire fed busses in the > > airplane. > > > Ditto Paul's question. And does this mean it should be protected? I > didn't want to run 4 branch circuit wires through the firewall, so I put a > small fuse panel inside the cabin, fed by a wire connected directly to the > battery. I assume this should be protected. But Z-11 has a 6AWG wire from > the battery contactor to the Main bus and shows no protection. (I'm soo > confused!) > > Perhaps a review of "fat wire" protection would be in order. Or just > point us to the relevant section in The Connection. > > Thanks. > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359314#359314 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: KX170/175 Installation Manual At 12:01 PM 11/26/2011, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I just sent the KX170/175 Installation Manual to your email address. Thanks! NOTICE TO ALL READERS . . . THE MISSING FILE IS RETRIEVED. CONSIDER THE REQUEST FOR REPLACEMENT SATISFIED. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.