Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:30 AM - Re: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 08:48 AM - Re: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 (Peter Mather)
3. 09:44 AM - Re: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 11:29 AM - Diodes on Relays (Victor Menkal)
5. 12:51 PM - Starter contactors (user9253)
6. 02:05 PM - Re: Starter contactors (Jan de Jong)
7. 03:16 PM - Re: Starter contactors (user9253)
8. 04:13 PM - Re: Starter contactors (Ken)
9. 07:09 PM - Re: Starter contactors (Bill)
Message 1
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Subject: | Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 |
At 04:48 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote:
>
>Bob
>
>The alternator is one Vans were selling back in 04. It is externally
>regulated and Vans then recommended a VR-1751 or MS-150A regulator but
>always said to leave the white lead "unconnected"
>
>I can't see what else the third wire could be except a stator connection but
>any suggestions or test ideas would be appreciated.
>
>Best Regards
>
>Peter
Okay. If there's no regulator built in, then the
third wire cannot be for the legacy "alternator
inop light" provided by most built in regulators.
This leaves the possibility that it is a stator
tap for a y-wound alternator.
Do an ohmmeter test between this connection and
the alternator case. Check the indicated resistance
for both polarities of the meter leads. One should
be some 'low' value while the other will be very
high if not infinite. This the expected display
for looking at the resistance of the lower trio
of diodes.
Then do the same test between the 'third lead' and
the b-terminal. You should see similar if not identical
readings for the upper trio of diodes.
Finally, in MIGHT be that Van was selling a modified
automotive alternator wherein an internal regulator
was removed. In this case, connections of the third
lead are left up to the modifier . . . but is likely
to be open circuit to any other portion of the
alternator's internals.
It's a game of non-invasive Clue . . . except that
nobody died at the hands of Col. Mustard in the
parlor by hanging.
Whoops!
Speaking of clues . . . I missed the one you provided
in the subject line. Fooey . . . I've not finished
my first cup of coffee . . . if that's a valid excuse.
Okay, go to the Motorcar Parts of America website
at
http://www.onlinetechhelp.com/picturesPlus1.php
and enter your 14184 in the part number search.
Don't know why this takes you to a page featuring
TWO part numbers, but select 14184.
There you will find a drawing that gives dimensions,
a picture of the device and a connector pin-out diagram.
In this case, the mystery "third lead" is indeed a
stator tap connection.
The MPA website belongs to the company that
offered me detailed insight into the alternator
remanufacturing business several years ago. I gave
a brief accounting of a tour of their Tijuana, MX
facility in Revision 12, Chapter 3 of the 'Connection.
Newcomers to the List might wish to avail themselves
of that description. It's an eye-opener. I suggest
that everyone bookmark this website in their browser.
It's a huge repository of useful information.
I was tempted to delete the opening soliloquy to
gloss over my lack of due diligence in sorting the
data you offered. But it's still a valid technique
for making useful deductions on parts not so well
identified as yours.
So here it is . . . warts and all. I'm going for
another cup of coffee.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Subject: | Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 |
Bob
Thanks for that - I should have worked that one out for myself. Anyway, I've
just tested as suggested using the diode setting on my DMM and it is
definitely stator.
Have you had a look at the STMicroelectronics alternator regulator chips?
Single chip does everything, easy to package.
The top of the ranhge version seems to be
http://www.st.com/internet/automotive/product/89833.jsp
Best regards
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 17 December 2011 15:27
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 04:48 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote:
>--> <peter@mather.com>
>
>Bob
>
>The alternator is one Vans were selling back in 04. It is externally
>regulated and Vans then recommended a VR-1751 or MS-150A regulator but
>always said to leave the white lead "unconnected"
>
>I can't see what else the third wire could be except a stator
>connection but any suggestions or test ideas would be appreciated.
>
>Best Regards
>
>Peter
Okay. If there's no regulator built in, then the
third wire cannot be for the legacy "alternator
inop light" provided by most built in regulators.
This leaves the possibility that it is a stator
tap for a y-wound alternator.
Do an ohmmeter test between this connection and
the alternator case. Check the indicated resistance
for both polarities of the meter leads. One should
be some 'low' value while the other will be very
high if not infinite. This the expected display
for looking at the resistance of the lower trio
of diodes.
Then do the same test between the 'third lead' and
the b-terminal. You should see similar if not identical
readings for the upper trio of diodes.
Finally, in MIGHT be that Van was selling a modified
automotive alternator wherein an internal regulator
was removed. In this case, connections of the third
lead are left up to the modifier . . . but is likely
to be open circuit to any other portion of the
alternator's internals.
It's a game of non-invasive Clue . . . except that
nobody died at the hands of Col. Mustard in the
parlor by hanging.
Whoops!
Speaking of clues . . . I missed the one you provided
in the subject line. Fooey . . . I've not finished
my first cup of coffee . . . if that's a valid excuse.
Okay, go to the Motorcar Parts of America website
at
http://www.onlinetechhelp.com/picturesPlus1.php
and enter your 14184 in the part number search.
Don't know why this takes you to a page featuring
TWO part numbers, but select 14184.
There you will find a drawing that gives dimensions,
a picture of the device and a connector pin-out diagram.
In this case, the mystery "third lead" is indeed a
stator tap connection.
The MPA website belongs to the company that
offered me detailed insight into the alternator
remanufacturing business several years ago. I gave
a brief accounting of a tour of their Tijuana, MX
facility in Revision 12, Chapter 3 of the 'Connection.
Newcomers to the List might wish to avail themselves
of that description. It's an eye-opener. I suggest
that everyone bookmark this website in their browser.
It's a huge repository of useful information.
I was tempted to delete the opening soliloquy to
gloss over my lack of due diligence in sorting the
data you offered. But it's still a valid technique
for making useful deductions on parts not so well
identified as yours.
So here it is . . . warts and all. I'm going for
another cup of coffee.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 |
>Have you had a look at the STMicroelectronics alternator regulator chips?
>Single chip does everything, easy to package.
I've not seen those devices before. Nice. They
have a built in power fet for controlling the
field.
The problem with most regulator products is that
they're designed to integrate with modern engine
controllers and even the older chips (20+ years)
have a phase sense pin that shuts the field current
off until the alternator is sensed to be rotating.
Not sure how this particular chip works but the
device I first evaluated
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Misc/Freescale/MC33092A_Simplified.pdf
also has this 'phase input signal' on pin 10
that had to be 'fooled' believing that the
alternator was turning. Otherwise, I needed to
bring a phase sample out of the alternator (yet
another airframe wire) to accommodate the
chip's design goals.
I've considered a number of new design projects
for regulators friendly to the legacy, external
regulator philosophy . . . but there's just too
many perfectly acceptable regulators out there
already.
If I do one in the future, it will be processor
based and feature some diagnostic outputs . . .
THAT's a feature that the contemporary COTS
products don't have. The L9911 chip you cited
does have diagnostics tailored to the automotive
engine controller world . . . I'd probably go
more for a human readable output of some kind.
That's WAaaayyyy back on the stove's burners . . .
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Diodes on Relays |
Thanx Bob and everyone for the great info on this.
Superb!
Victor Menkal
CH750 Rotax 912 ULS-2 Aeroelectric OV protected
Whitehorse Yukon
Message 5
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Subject: | Starter contactors |
My aircraft has a Rotax 912ULS engine with an 18 amp alternator. I am considering
adding lighting and additional avionics that would load the alternator to
near maximum. In an effort to conserve electricity, I am thinking about eliminating
the main battery contactor similar to Z-17 or Z-20. I am not familiar
with the internal workings of the starter motor, but do not believe there is an
internal solenoid that could be used to open the circuit. My options are:
1. Leave the circuit as is with a battery contactor.
2. Remove the battery contactor and add a second starter contactor in series with
the existing one. The starter contactors would be energized by two side
by side momentary push button switches.
3. Remove the battery contactor and connect the starter contactor directly to
the battery.
Option 3 is the simplest and lightest weight and least expensive. But I am concerned
about the starter contacts welding themselves shut with no way to shut
off the power.
Is the likelihood of the starter contactor failing closed, great enough to warrant
the use of two contactors in series with the starter motor?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361107#361107
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Starter contactors |
Joe,
There may be an option 4.
You might investigate using Tyco BDS-A as the battery contactor (attached).
Buy at Allied.
Plug and contacts at http://www.newunitedracetech.com
Somewhat expensive.
Search "AMP 184046".
Altogether say $60.
Regards,
Jan de Jong
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Starter contactors |
Jan de Jong,
Thanks for that information. A latching relay has another failure mode to consider:
failure to unlatch. However a latching relay may be suitable for use in
some situations. I will keep it in mind.
Thanks for the link.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361112#361112
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Starter contactors |
There is also the option of a manual battery switch. Could be used as a
battery contactor substitute or just in series with the starter. Saw one
the other day that only weighed a couple of oz. It was under $10. and
rated for 200 amps.
Ken
On 17/12/2011 5:01 PM, Jan de Jong wrote:
> Joe,
>
> There may be an option 4.
> You might investigate using Tyco BDS-A as the battery contactor (attached).
>
> Buy at Allied.
> Plug and contacts at http://www.newunitedracetech.com
> Somewhat expensive.
> Search "AMP 184046".
> Altogether say $60.
>
> Regards,
> Jan de Jong
>
> *Truncated!*
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Starter contactors |
I've considered the "Little Switch" on this page:
http://www.flamingriver.com/batterydisconnect
Bill
SF bay area
Thinking Onex
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM, user9253 <fran4sew@banyanol.com> wrote:
> >
>
> My aircraft has a Rotax 912ULS engine with an 18 amp alternator. I am
> considering adding lighting and additional avionics that would load the
> alternator to near maximum. In an effort to conserve electricity, I am
> thinking about eliminating the main battery contactor similar to Z-17 or
> Z-20. I am not familiar with the internal workings of the starter motor,
> but do not believe there is an internal solenoid that could be used to open
> the circuit. My options are:
> 1. Leave the circuit as is with a battery contactor.
> 2. Remove the battery contactor and add a second starter contactor in
> series with the existing one. The starter contactors would be energized
> by two side by side momentary push button switches.
> 3. Remove the battery contactor and connect the starter contactor
> directly to the battery.
>
> Option 3 is the simplest and lightest weight and least expensive. But I
> am concerned about the starter contacts welding themselves shut with no way
> to shut off the power.
> Is the likelihood of the starter contactor failing closed, great enough
> to warrant the use of two contactors in series with the starter motor?
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361107#361107
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