AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 12/17/11


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 07:30 AM - Re: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 08:48 AM - Re: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 (Peter Mather)
     3. 09:44 AM - Re: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 11:29 AM - Diodes on Relays (Victor Menkal)
     5. 12:51 PM - Starter contactors (user9253)
     6. 02:05 PM - Re: Starter contactors (Jan de Jong)
     7. 03:16 PM - Re: Starter contactors (user9253)
     8. 04:13 PM - Re: Starter contactors (Ken)
     9. 07:09 PM - Re: Starter contactors (Bill)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 07:30:48 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184
    At 04:48 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote: > >Bob > >The alternator is one Vans were selling back in 04. It is externally >regulated and Vans then recommended a VR-1751 or MS-150A regulator but >always said to leave the white lead "unconnected" > >I can't see what else the third wire could be except a stator connection but >any suggestions or test ideas would be appreciated. > >Best Regards > >Peter Okay. If there's no regulator built in, then the third wire cannot be for the legacy "alternator inop light" provided by most built in regulators. This leaves the possibility that it is a stator tap for a y-wound alternator. Do an ohmmeter test between this connection and the alternator case. Check the indicated resistance for both polarities of the meter leads. One should be some 'low' value while the other will be very high if not infinite. This the expected display for looking at the resistance of the lower trio of diodes. Then do the same test between the 'third lead' and the b-terminal. You should see similar if not identical readings for the upper trio of diodes. Finally, in MIGHT be that Van was selling a modified automotive alternator wherein an internal regulator was removed. In this case, connections of the third lead are left up to the modifier . . . but is likely to be open circuit to any other portion of the alternator's internals. It's a game of non-invasive Clue . . . except that nobody died at the hands of Col. Mustard in the parlor by hanging. Whoops! Speaking of clues . . . I missed the one you provided in the subject line. Fooey . . . I've not finished my first cup of coffee . . . if that's a valid excuse. Okay, go to the Motorcar Parts of America website at http://www.onlinetechhelp.com/picturesPlus1.php and enter your 14184 in the part number search. Don't know why this takes you to a page featuring TWO part numbers, but select 14184. There you will find a drawing that gives dimensions, a picture of the device and a connector pin-out diagram. In this case, the mystery "third lead" is indeed a stator tap connection. The MPA website belongs to the company that offered me detailed insight into the alternator remanufacturing business several years ago. I gave a brief accounting of a tour of their Tijuana, MX facility in Revision 12, Chapter 3 of the 'Connection. Newcomers to the List might wish to avail themselves of that description. It's an eye-opener. I suggest that everyone bookmark this website in their browser. It's a huge repository of useful information. I was tempted to delete the opening soliloquy to gloss over my lack of due diligence in sorting the data you offered. But it's still a valid technique for making useful deductions on parts not so well identified as yours. So here it is . . . warts and all. I'm going for another cup of coffee. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:48:35 AM PST US
    From: "Peter Mather" <peter@mather.com>
    Subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184
    Bob Thanks for that - I should have worked that one out for myself. Anyway, I've just tested as suggested using the diode setting on my DMM and it is definitely stator. Have you had a look at the STMicroelectronics alternator regulator chips? Single chip does everything, easy to package. The top of the ranhge version seems to be http://www.st.com/internet/automotive/product/89833.jsp Best regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 17 December 2011 15:27 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184 --> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> At 04:48 PM 12/16/2011, you wrote: >--> <peter@mather.com> > >Bob > >The alternator is one Vans were selling back in 04. It is externally >regulated and Vans then recommended a VR-1751 or MS-150A regulator but >always said to leave the white lead "unconnected" > >I can't see what else the third wire could be except a stator >connection but any suggestions or test ideas would be appreciated. > >Best Regards > >Peter Okay. If there's no regulator built in, then the third wire cannot be for the legacy "alternator inop light" provided by most built in regulators. This leaves the possibility that it is a stator tap for a y-wound alternator. Do an ohmmeter test between this connection and the alternator case. Check the indicated resistance for both polarities of the meter leads. One should be some 'low' value while the other will be very high if not infinite. This the expected display for looking at the resistance of the lower trio of diodes. Then do the same test between the 'third lead' and the b-terminal. You should see similar if not identical readings for the upper trio of diodes. Finally, in MIGHT be that Van was selling a modified automotive alternator wherein an internal regulator was removed. In this case, connections of the third lead are left up to the modifier . . . but is likely to be open circuit to any other portion of the alternator's internals. It's a game of non-invasive Clue . . . except that nobody died at the hands of Col. Mustard in the parlor by hanging. Whoops! Speaking of clues . . . I missed the one you provided in the subject line. Fooey . . . I've not finished my first cup of coffee . . . if that's a valid excuse. Okay, go to the Motorcar Parts of America website at http://www.onlinetechhelp.com/picturesPlus1.php and enter your 14184 in the part number search. Don't know why this takes you to a page featuring TWO part numbers, but select 14184. There you will find a drawing that gives dimensions, a picture of the device and a connector pin-out diagram. In this case, the mystery "third lead" is indeed a stator tap connection. The MPA website belongs to the company that offered me detailed insight into the alternator remanufacturing business several years ago. I gave a brief accounting of a tour of their Tijuana, MX facility in Revision 12, Chapter 3 of the 'Connection. Newcomers to the List might wish to avail themselves of that description. It's an eye-opener. I suggest that everyone bookmark this website in their browser. It's a huge repository of useful information. I was tempted to delete the opening soliloquy to gloss over my lack of due diligence in sorting the data you offered. But it's still a valid technique for making useful deductions on parts not so well identified as yours. So here it is . . . warts and all. I'm going for another cup of coffee. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:44:30 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Vans 35A alternator - Nippondenso 14184
    >Have you had a look at the STMicroelectronics alternator regulator chips? >Single chip does everything, easy to package. I've not seen those devices before. Nice. They have a built in power fet for controlling the field. The problem with most regulator products is that they're designed to integrate with modern engine controllers and even the older chips (20+ years) have a phase sense pin that shuts the field current off until the alternator is sensed to be rotating. Not sure how this particular chip works but the device I first evaluated http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Misc/Freescale/MC33092A_Simplified.pdf also has this 'phase input signal' on pin 10 that had to be 'fooled' believing that the alternator was turning. Otherwise, I needed to bring a phase sample out of the alternator (yet another airframe wire) to accommodate the chip's design goals. I've considered a number of new design projects for regulators friendly to the legacy, external regulator philosophy . . . but there's just too many perfectly acceptable regulators out there already. If I do one in the future, it will be processor based and feature some diagnostic outputs . . . THAT's a feature that the contemporary COTS products don't have. The L9911 chip you cited does have diagnostics tailored to the automotive engine controller world . . . I'd probably go more for a human readable output of some kind. That's WAaaayyyy back on the stove's burners . . . Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:29:11 AM PST US
    From: Victor Menkal <vmenkal@mac.com>
    Subject: Diodes on Relays
    Thanx Bob and everyone for the great info on this. Superb! Victor Menkal CH750 Rotax 912 ULS-2 Aeroelectric OV protected Whitehorse Yukon


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:51:49 PM PST US
    Subject: Starter contactors
    From: "user9253" <fran4sew@banyanol.com>
    My aircraft has a Rotax 912ULS engine with an 18 amp alternator. I am considering adding lighting and additional avionics that would load the alternator to near maximum. In an effort to conserve electricity, I am thinking about eliminating the main battery contactor similar to Z-17 or Z-20. I am not familiar with the internal workings of the starter motor, but do not believe there is an internal solenoid that could be used to open the circuit. My options are: 1. Leave the circuit as is with a battery contactor. 2. Remove the battery contactor and add a second starter contactor in series with the existing one. The starter contactors would be energized by two side by side momentary push button switches. 3. Remove the battery contactor and connect the starter contactor directly to the battery. Option 3 is the simplest and lightest weight and least expensive. But I am concerned about the starter contacts welding themselves shut with no way to shut off the power. Is the likelihood of the starter contactor failing closed, great enough to warrant the use of two contactors in series with the starter motor? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361107#361107


    Message 6


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    Time: 02:05:36 PM PST US
    From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
    Subject: Re: Starter contactors
    Joe, There may be an option 4. You might investigate using Tyco BDS-A as the battery contactor (attached). Buy at Allied. Plug and contacts at http://www.newunitedracetech.com Somewhat expensive. Search "AMP 184046". Altogether say $60. Regards, Jan de Jong


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:16:40 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Starter contactors
    From: "user9253" <fran4sew@banyanol.com>
    Jan de Jong, Thanks for that information. A latching relay has another failure mode to consider: failure to unlatch. However a latching relay may be suitable for use in some situations. I will keep it in mind. Thanks for the link. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361112#361112


    Message 8


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    Time: 04:13:35 PM PST US
    From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: Starter contactors
    There is also the option of a manual battery switch. Could be used as a battery contactor substitute or just in series with the starter. Saw one the other day that only weighed a couple of oz. It was under $10. and rated for 200 amps. Ken On 17/12/2011 5:01 PM, Jan de Jong wrote: > Joe, > > There may be an option 4. > You might investigate using Tyco BDS-A as the battery contactor (attached). > > Buy at Allied. > Plug and contacts at http://www.newunitedracetech.com > Somewhat expensive. > Search "AMP 184046". > Altogether say $60. > > Regards, > Jan de Jong > > *Truncated!*


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:09:17 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Starter contactors
    From: Bill <wtrooper@GMAIL.COM>
    I've considered the "Little Switch" on this page: http://www.flamingriver.com/batterydisconnect Bill SF bay area Thinking Onex On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM, user9253 <fran4sew@banyanol.com> wrote: > > > > My aircraft has a Rotax 912ULS engine with an 18 amp alternator. I am > considering adding lighting and additional avionics that would load the > alternator to near maximum. In an effort to conserve electricity, I am > thinking about eliminating the main battery contactor similar to Z-17 or > Z-20. I am not familiar with the internal workings of the starter motor, > but do not believe there is an internal solenoid that could be used to open > the circuit. My options are: > 1. Leave the circuit as is with a battery contactor. > 2. Remove the battery contactor and add a second starter contactor in > series with the existing one. The starter contactors would be energized > by two side by side momentary push button switches. > 3. Remove the battery contactor and connect the starter contactor > directly to the battery. > > Option 3 is the simplest and lightest weight and least expensive. But I > am concerned about the starter contacts welding themselves shut with no way > to shut off the power. > Is the likelihood of the starter contactor failing closed, great enough > to warrant the use of two contactors in series with the starter motor? > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361107#361107




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