Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:41 AM - First Engine Start Problem (Dan Billingsley)
2. 04:11 AM - Re: Relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 04:17 AM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:06 AM - Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... ()
5. 06:14 AM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
6. 06:51 AM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (Dan Billingsley)
7. 07:05 AM - Re: Garmin 696 Data Out (Valovich, Paul)
8. 07:14 AM - Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (racerjerry)
9. 07:19 AM - Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (paul wilson)
10. 07:19 AM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (Tim Perry)
11. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (n801bh@netzero.com)
12. 07:38 AM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (zodiac601)
13. 08:34 AM - Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (The Kuffels)
14. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (Kevin Horton)
15. 08:59 AM - Re: Relays (bnelson79@charter.net)
16. 09:22 AM - Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (Gerry van Dyk)
17. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: First Engine Start Problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 10:27 AM - Re: Relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 10:29 AM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (Bill Bradburry)
21. 05:44 PM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (Dan Billingsley)
22. 08:58 PM - Re: Relays (Bill Nelson)
23. 09:16 PM - Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (Matt Dralle)
24. 10:36 PM - Dynon Skyview vs. GRT HX EFIS... (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Subject: | First Engine Start Problem |
Bob,=0AI have had the Kitfox wiring completed for about 8 months now and I
used the new Z-16 schematic. I have most of my avionics on the E-Bus and th
ey have been working well since day one when I first flipped the switch. A
week ago the day came to do my first engine start. As it goes with the Rota
x 912uls, we purged the oil system then began turning the prop looking for
oil pressure. After turning it through several times by hand we decided to
then let the starter do the work. The starter turned the engine over well,
however, I was dismayed when my whole panel of avionics went dead. I of cou
rse quit cranking and began troubleshooting. It didn't take long to find th
at the fuseable link off the Batt Contactor (heading to the E-Bus) burned t
hrough. I went ahead and bypassed the link with 16 AWG and was able to comp
lete a successful first engine start. The guys that were working with me as
ked me why that link was there...I did not have a good answer for them. I
do have the diode in place, yet I assume a "spike" occurred when I turned
the engine over. So...I am now reluctant to put another fuseable link in pl
ace but have a concern if there is still a problem that burned my link in t
he first place.-=0AI am open to comments and suggestions.-=0AThanks,=0A
Dan Billingsley=0AMesa, AZ
Message 2
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At 10:13 PM 12/25/2011, you wrote:
>
>What is the difference between a battery relay and a starter relay?
>I have a Rans S12S and the circuit diagram for the Rotax 912ULS
>engine shows both. But I just got the plane and it only has what I
>think is a starter relay with the rotary starter switch and a simple
>SPST master switch. Do I need to add the battery relay?
Probably not. You've got a day-vfr-fair weather
machine with few incentives for adding lots of
'conveniences'. The Piper Tri-Pacer in which I took early
flying lessons had a battery switch and a starter
push-button. No relays at all.
The FUNCTIONALITY for the two devices is very
different. The battery switch/contactor is designed
to use a minimum of power and is expected to SWITCH
rather light loads while being able to CARRY the
occasional starter current.
The starter contactor needs to SWITCH large inrush
loads without welding contacts. Power drain is not
an issue because its operating duty cycle is very
low . . . seconds per flight cycle. Hence, the starter
switch/contactor is designed for the more demanding
service as a control device.
If what you have has been vetted by folks who
have been-there-done-that . . . there's no compelling
rationale for changing anything. If they become
troublesome, get with us here on the List and we'll
help you craft a more robust alternative.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: First Engine Start Problem |
At 03:37 AM 12/27/2011, you wrote:
>Bob,
>I have had the Kitfox wiring completed for about 8 months now and I
>used the new Z-16 schematic. I have most of my avionics on the E-Bus
>and they have been working well since day one when I first flipped the switch.
What is the total list of goodies on the e-bus?
> A week ago the day came to do my first engine start. As it goes
> with the Rotax 912uls, we purged the oil system then began turning
> the prop looking for oil pressure. After turning it through several
> times by hand we decided to then let the starter do the work. The
> starter turned the engine over well, however, I was dismayed when
> my whole panel of avionics went dead. I of course quit cranking and
> began troubleshooting. It didn't take long to find that the
> fuseable link off the Batt Contactor (heading to the E-Bus) burned
> through. I went ahead and bypassed the link with 16 AWG and was
> able to complete a successful first engine start. The guys that
> were working with me asked me why that link was there...I did not
> have a good answer for them. I do have the diode in place, yet I
> assume a "spike" occurred when I turned the engine over. So...I am
> now reluctant to put another fuseable link in place but have a
> concern if there is still a problem that burned my link in the first place.
>I am open to comments and suggestions.
Any and all sorts of fault protection (links,
fuses, breakers, etc) are there to protect wires.
The idea of an e-bus is to power up electro-whizzies
most useful for ALTERNATOR OUT EN ROUTE ENDURANCE
while operating battery only. This alternate feed
path goes around the battery contactor thus offering
an opportunity to (1) eliminate battery contactor loads
on the battery or (2) get a minimum list of useful goodies
powered if the contactor or its control circuit fails.
You didn't have a 'spike' . . . you had some level
of LOAD that was greater than what the 22AWG link
would carry. Having a list of goodies powered from the
e-bus will give us the first clues as to why such
a load existed.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
12/27/2011
Hello Matt, You wrote:
1) "Are there Pitot line "attenuators" like for RF in coax?"
Not pitot tube line attenuators, but both attenuators and augmentors in the
form of wedges before or after the static port portion of the pitot - static
system that can be used to tweak airspeed (and altitude) indications.
2) "But *fast* is a head scratcher. If there's no electronic configuration
parameters to adjust, what do you do?"
See this posting to the aeroelectric list for a more complete explanation of
the use of wedges to adjust airspeed indications:
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=88398860?KEYS=static_port?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=9?SERIAL=0431117943?SHOWBUTTONS=YES
A bit of search around in your Matronic's archive system on pitot static
systems and airspeed, particularly any posting on this arena by Kevin
Horton, will reveal a host of material for thought and action.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
=======================================================
Time: 07:43:08 PM PST US
From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration...
Dear Listers,
I've been flying the new 10" Dynon Skyview in the RV-6 for a few weeks now
and
it seems like the airspeed is reading maybe 10mph fast. The GS always reads
10mph
or more slower than the True airspeed, no matter which way I fly with
respect
to the current wind. Looking through the configuration options on the
Skyview,
I'm not seeing parameters to calibrate the airspeed. If the airspeed were
*slow* compared to the GS, I could envision making adjustments to the Pitot
tube to get it in better alignment with slipstream. But *fast* is a head
scratcher.
If there's no electronic configuration parameters to adjust, what do
you do? Are there Pitot line "attenuators" like for RF in coax? ;-)
Matt
-
Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle
Message 5
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Subject: | First Engine Start Problem |
You didn't have a 'spike' . . . you had some level
of LOAD that was greater than what the 22AWG link
would carry. Having a list of goodies powered from the
e-bus will give us the first clues as to why such
a load existed.
Bob . . .
Since this is a new wiring installation, you may want to
check your wiring again. Especially look to make sure that you do not
somehow have starter current through your fusible link.
Roger
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: First Engine Start Problem |
Thanks for the quick reply. I will be going to the airport today and take i
nventory of the e-bus goodies. I understand and accept that this could be a
n over-Load problem so I may need to transfer a couple things to the main b
us. What troubles me is I have had this E-bus circuit working many times wi
th everything turned on sometimes for 5 to 10 minutes without a hitch. Will
start with a current tally and get back.=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>_______________
_________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroele
ctric.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Tuesday, Decemb
er 27, 2011 5:14 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: First Engine Start P
, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>=0A>At 03:37 AM 12/27/2011, you w
rote:=0A>> Bob,=0A>> I have had the Kitfox wiring completed for about 8 mon
ths now and I used the new Z-16 schematic. I have most of my avionics on th
e E-Bus and they have been working well since day one when I first flipped
the switch.=0A>=0A>- What is the total list of goodies on the e-bus?=0A>
=0A>=0A>>- A week ago the day came to do my first engine start. As it goe
s with the Rotax 912uls, we purged the oil system then began turning the pr
op looking for oil pressure. After turning it through several times by hand
we decided to then let the starter do the work. The starter turned the eng
ine over well, however, I was dismayed when my whole panel of avionics went
dead. I of course quit cranking and began troubleshooting. It didn't take
long to find that the fuseable link off the Batt Contactor (heading to the
E-Bus) burned through. I went ahead and bypassed the link with 16 AWG and w
as able to complete a successful first engine start. The guys that were wor
king with me asked me why that link was there...I did not have a good answe
r for them. I do have the diode in place, yet I assume a "spike" occurred w
hen I turned the engine over. So...I am now reluctant to put another fuseab
le link in place but have a concern if there is still a problem that burned
my link in the first place.=0A>> I am open to comments and suggestions.=0A
>=0A>- Any and all sorts of fault protection (links,=0A>- fuses, brea
kers, etc) are there to protect wires.=0A>- The idea of an e-bus is to p
ower up electro-whizzies=0A>- most useful for ALTERNATOR OUT EN ROUTE EN
DURANCE=0A>- while operating battery only. This alternate feed=0A>- p
ath goes around the battery contactor thus offering=0A>- an opportunity
to (1) eliminate battery contactor loads=0A>- on the battery or (2) get
a minimum list of useful goodies=0A>- powered if the contactor or its co
ntrol circuit fails.=0A>=0A>- You didn't have a 'spike' . . . you had so
me level=0A>- of LOAD that was greater than what the 22AWG link=0A>-
would carry. Having a list of goodies powered from the=0A>- e-bus will g
ive us the first clues as to why such=0A>- a load existed.=0A>=0A>=0A>
=======================0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Garmin 696 Data Out |
It's been a while but I think you have to use the serial port, not the data
port. I think I ended up splitting the serial port output to my AFS 4500
and ADI II autopilot.
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
If the airspeed is reading too HIGH, a quick & dirty solution is to install a controlled
leak in the pitot system. Install a T in the pitot line and use the
third port as a drilled jet to vent to cabin air. Begin with a #80 drill bit
and open up. For calibration, extend the new line (plastic tubing) into the
cockpit so your co-pilot can make adjustments in flight.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361733#361733
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
Pitot is not an issue since it is pretty insensitive to angle of
attack. A quick check in just about any gas dynamics text will tell
you error vs angle of attack. My memory is bad, but its pretty hard
to get much of an error due to angle. Static location can be an
issue. The text book pitot static probe had many static ports and one
dynamic port.
Paul
===========
At 08:39 PM 12/26/2011, you wrote:
>
>Dear Listers,
>
>I've been flying the new 10" Dynon Skyview in the RV-6 for a few
>weeks now and it seems like the airspeed is reading maybe 10mph
>fast. The GS always reads 10mph or more slower than the True
>airspeed, no matter which way I fly with respect to the current
>wind. Looking through the configuration options on the Skyview, I'm
>not seeing parameters to calibrate the airspeed. If the airspeed
>were *slow* compared to the GS, I could envision making adjustments
>to the Pitot tube to get it in better alignment with
>slipstream. But *fast* is a head scratcher. If there's no
>electronic configuration parameters to adjust, what do you do? Are
>there Pitot line "attenuators" like for RF in coax? ;-)
>
>Matt
>
>-
>Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle
>
>RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
>http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
>http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
>http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
>Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
>
>RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
>http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
>Status: 42+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: First Engine Start Problem |
Sound like you have a loose connection. When you cranked the engine somethin
g that was not touching now was. There is often a lot of movement with the e
ngine start you don't get with it just sitting there. And during your troub
leshooting you might have moved the offending conbection where it no longer i
s making contact. I have had this type of problem before and it really suck
s when it happens during flight, but best to have a good breaker or fuse blo
w than a fire....
Tim
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 27, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com> wro
te:
> Thanks for the quick reply. I will be going to the airport today and take i
nventory of the e-bus goodies. I understand and accept that this could be an
over-Load problem so I may need to transfer a couple things to the main bus
. What troubles me is I have had this E-bus circuit working many times with e
verything turned on sometimes for 5 to 10 minutes without a hitch. Will star
t with a current tally and get back.
> Dan
>
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:14 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: First Engine Start Problem
>
ls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 03:37 AM 12/27/2011, you wrote:
> > Bob,
> > I have had the Kitfox wiring completed for about 8 months now and I used
the new Z-16 schematic. I have most of my avionics on the E-Bus and they ha
ve been working well since day one when I first flipped the switch.
>
> What is the total list of goodies on the e-bus?
>
>
> > A week ago the day came to do my first engine start. As it goes with th
e Rotax 912uls, we purged the oil system then began turning the prop looking
for oil pressure. After turning it through several times by hand we decided
to then let the starter do the work. The starter turned the engine over wel
l, however, I was dismayed when my whole panel of avionics went dead. I of c
ourse quit cranking and began troubleshooting. It didn't take long to find t
hat the fuseable link off the Batt Contactor (heading to the E-Bus) burned t
hrough. I went ahead and bypassed the link with 16 AWG and was able to compl
ete a successful first engine start. The guys that were working with me aske
d me why that link was there...I did not have a good answer for them. I do h
ave the diode in place, yet I assume a "spike" occurred when I turned the en
gine over. So...I am now reluctant to put another fuseable link in place but
have a concern if there is still a problem that burned my link in the first
place.
> > I am open to comments and suggestions.
>
> Any and all sorts of fault protection (links,
> fuses, breakers, etc) are there to protect wires.
> The idea of an e-bus is to power up electro-whizzies
> most useful for ALTERNATOR OUT EN ROUTE ENDURANCE
> while operating battery only. This alternate feed
> path goes around the battery contactor thus offering
> an opportunity to (1) eliminate battery contactor loads
> on the battery or (2) get a minimum list of useful goodies
> powered if the contactor or its control circuit fails.
>
> You didn't have a 'spike' . . . you had some level
> of LOAD that was greater than what the 22AWG link
> would carry. Having a list of goodies powered from the
> e-bus will give us the first clues as to why such
> a load existe====================
====www.builders -Matt - The AeroElectri
c-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Aersp; -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> sp; --> http://ww===================
===
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
That is a viable fix.... Another easy and adjustable way is to go to a p
et supply store and buy a small needle valve they sell for aquariums and
plumb it in the line. That way you can dial in the exact bleed off.
do not archive
electric-list@matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration...
y.us>
If the airspeed is reading too HIGH, a quick & dirty solution is to inst
all a controlled leak in the pitot system. Install a =9CT=9D
in the pitot line and use the third port as a drilled jet to vent to ca
bin air. Begin with a #80 drill bit and open up. For calibration, exte
nd the new line (plastic tubing) into the cockpit so your co-pilot can m
ake adjustments in flight.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361733#361733
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
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____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4ef9e482a5b932591f91st01vuc
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: First Engine Start Problem |
My guess is an overloaded e bus. When you cranked, the voltage dropped and the
amps of everything went up. watts = volts x amps.
If the battery voltage dropped 20% during cranking, then the amperage of everything
went up 20% as well.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361739#361739
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
Matt,
Agree with others the symptoms indicate a static problem, specifically the
location is producing a vacuum when moving.
While introducing a "controlled leak" in the pitot side might fix the
airspeed error, probably at only one airspeed, it wouldn't fix the altitude
error also produced by static error.
Two very simple things you can do to confirm the problem and start toward a
solution.
First on takeoff set the altimeter to an exact division. Note as you speed
up and rotate if the altitude changes, even a little. Higher altitude
implies dynamic vacuum at the static port(s) which will produce the effect
you describe, lower altitude means dynamic pressure.
As a test, tape a wedge, or even a block such as a short piece or two of
tongue depressor, behind the port(s). If your error decreases you are on
the right track and set for a little cut and try with wedge size and
placement. Before starting be sure to have accurate error measurements.
Use the spreadsheet mentioned by others to get wind independent actual true
airspeeds. Or you are welcome to the spreadsheet I developed from the same
formula with 4 leg input. The 4th leg provides redundant information to
indicate the quality of the input data.
Tom Kuffel, CFI
EAA Flight Advisor
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
On 2011-12-27, at 11:12 , racerjerry wrote:
>
> If the airspeed is reading too HIGH, a quick & dirty solution is to install a
controlled leak in the pitot system. Install a T in the pitot line and use the
third port as a drilled jet to vent to cabin air. Begin with a #80 drill bit
and open up. For calibration, extend the new line (plastic tubing) into the
cockpit so your co-pilot can make adjustments in flight.
If the airspeed is reading too, it is quite likely a problem with the static system.
This could be a static system leak, or a poorly designed or located static
port. Errors in the static system will affect both airspeed and altitude,
so it is much better to find and fix the static source problem than it is to
create a pitot leak too.
If you were to fiddle with the pitot system to fix the ASI indication (or provide
ASI adjustments, as some EFIS systems allow), you would still have errors in
the altimeter, and these can be safety of flight issues. The TCAS systems on
larger aircraft provide guidance to avoid collision with you based on whatever
altitude is reported by your transponder. If you have static system errors,
the TCAS system may be giving commands that increase the risk of collision.
Static system leaks on RVs often produce ASIs that read about 10 kt too high, so
the first thing to do is a static system leak check. Another common problem
is flush mounted static ports on RVs, but this typically leads to ASIs reading
too low.
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 15
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Bob,
In the original 1998 Rotax Installation Manual the schematic didn't show
anything fancy. But the newest incarnation (May 2009) has both a
starter relay and a battery relay. I've talked to at least 2 Rotax
techs, the Rans tech, my own mechanic, as well as others and everyone
seems to say something different. I think I've decided to go with the
latest schematic which has a 5 A and a 50 A fuse/C.B. in the external
alternator circuit as well as a DPST master switch that connects the 5 A
line from the IG connection on the alternator to the battery relay.
There is also a 25 A fuse/C.B. in the R, B+, C lines from the
regulator/rectifier in the internal alternator circuit. Both
alternators run at the same time then, all the time, although the 5 A
C.B. will be switched so I can shut down the external alternator if I
want to. I assume there is one line coming out of the external alt.
circuit and another from the internal circuit that both connect to the
consumers bus. Is this correct with both running at the same time?
Any comments on any of these issues will be appreciated.
Bill
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 10:13 PM 12/25/2011, you wrote:
>> <bnelson79@charter.net>
>>
>> What is the difference between a battery relay and a starter relay? I
>> have a Rans S12S and the circuit diagram for the Rotax 912ULS engine
>> shows both. But I just got the plane and it only has what I think is
>> a starter relay with the rotary starter switch and a simple SPST
>> master switch. Do I need to add the battery relay?
>
> Probably not. You've got a day-vfr-fair weather
> machine with few incentives for adding lots of
> 'conveniences'. The Piper Tri-Pacer in which I took early
> flying lessons had a battery switch and a starter
> push-button. No relays at all.
>
> The FUNCTIONALITY for the two devices is very
> different. The battery switch/contactor is designed
> to use a minimum of power and is expected to SWITCH
> rather light loads while being able to CARRY the
> occasional starter current.
>
> The starter contactor needs to SWITCH large inrush
> loads without welding contacts. Power drain is not
> an issue because its operating duty cycle is very
> low . . . seconds per flight cycle. Hence, the starter
> switch/contactor is designed for the more demanding
> service as a control device.
>
> If what you have has been vetted by folks who
> have been-there-done-that . . . there's no compelling
> rationale for changing anything. If they become
> troublesome, get with us here on the List and we'll
> help you craft a more robust alternative.
>
>
> Bob . . .
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Subject: | Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
Matt, I've got a couple of thoughts: The pitot / static system depends on
the static port being true ambient pressure, which is actually pretty
difficult to achieve in airflow. If you've got the port(s) in a spot that
generates a slight positive pressure on the static side you will
de-calibrate the airspeed to the low side, if there's negative pressure at
the port airspeed will read high. On the C172SP I rent there's a 1/8" high
lip on the fitting right beside the static hole. As the lip is at an angle
to airflow, I presume they dial in the static system by rotating the fitting
so the angle gives the correct pressure at the port for a specific speed
range. I've read somewhere (perhaps the Bingelis books) about making
adjustments to the static port by laying strips of tape in front of or
behind the port. As an example, the area in front of the windshield on a
stock car is a high pressure area where they take the induction to the
engine, I would suggest laying down a few thicknesses of tape behind the
port to start. Then again if your port is in an area of laminar flow,
tripping the flow in front of the port may have the same effect.
I believe once you have a modification that works you can make a permanent
'fix' that would be more efficient than a bleed port in the line.
Hope this helps.
Gerry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Dralle
Sent: December 26, 2011 8:39 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration...
Dear Listers,
I've been flying the new 10" Dynon Skyview in the RV-6 for a few weeks now
and it seems like the airspeed is reading maybe 10mph fast. The GS always
reads 10mph or more slower than the True airspeed, no matter which way I fly
with respect to the current wind. Looking through the configuration options
on the Skyview, I'm not seeing parameters to calibrate the airspeed. If the
airspeed were *slow* compared to the GS, I could envision making adjustments
to the Pitot tube to get it in better alignment with slipstream. But *fast*
is a head scratcher. If there's no electronic configuration parameters to
adjust, what do you do? Are there Pitot line "attenuators" like for RF in
coax? ;-)
Matt
-
Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
Status: 42+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: First Engine Start Problem |
At 09:35 AM 12/27/2011, you wrote:
>
>My guess is an overloaded e bus. When you cranked, the voltage
>dropped and the amps of everything went up. watts = volts x amps.
>
>If the battery voltage dropped 20% during cranking, then the
>amperage of everything went up 20% as well.
For the vast majority of electro-whizzies, current
draw does not go up and input voltage goes down. Modern
avionics with switchmode power supplies are 'constant
power' systems but even then, the increase is not THAT
profound for the duration of a cranking cycle. It takes
a LOT more current to fuse a 22AWG wire than you might
suppose. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/22AWG_20A.pdf
Current ratings for wire is bounded by INSULATION
performance, not COPPER performance. If he fused
a 22AWG link, something rather profound occurred.
Bob . . .
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At 10:56 AM 12/27/2011, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>In the original 1998 Rotax Installation Manual the schematic didn't
>show anything fancy. But the newest incarnation (May 2009) has both
>a starter relay and a battery relay. I've talked to at least 2
>Rotax techs, the Rans tech, my own mechanic, as well as others and
>everyone seems to say something different. I think I've decided to
>go with the latest schematic which has a 5 A and a 50 A fuse/C.B. in
>the external alternator circuit as well as a DPST master switch that
>connects the 5 A line from the IG connection on the alternator to
>the battery relay. There is also a 25 A fuse/C.B. in the R, B+, C
>lines from the regulator/rectifier in the internal alternator
>circuit. Both alternators run at the same time then, all the time,
>although the 5 A C.B. will be switched so I can shut down the
>external alternator if I want to. I assume there is one line coming
>out of the external alt. circuit and another from the internal
>circuit that both connect to the consumers bus. Is this correct
>with both running at the same time?
>Any comments on any of these issues will be appreciated.
Forgive me but a schematic is many times more lucid than
a verbal description. Can you send/post/link a copy of the
diagram that strikes your fancy?
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: First Engine Start Problem |
At 08:46 AM 12/27/2011, you wrote:
>Thanks for the quick reply. I will be going to the airport today and
>take inventory of the e-bus goodies. I understand and accept that
>this could be an over-Load problem so I may need to transfer a
>couple things to the main bus. What troubles me is I have had this
>E-bus circuit working many times with everything turned on sometimes
>for 5 to 10 minutes without a hitch. Will start with a current tally
>and get back.
In particular, do you have any loads that are not
generally described in the suggested list of
endurance goodies I've written about? Is your
starter system dependent upon e-bus supply of
energy in any way?
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
If you build in a leak in the system, I doubt that you will ever pass your
biannual transponder check. Just something to consider...
Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration...
On 2011-12-27, at 11:12 , racerjerry wrote:
<gki@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> If the airspeed is reading too HIGH, a quick & dirty solution is to
install a controlled leak in the pitot system. Install a "T" in the pitot
line and use the third port as a drilled jet to vent to cabin air. Begin
with a #80 drill bit and open up. For calibration, extend the new line
(plastic tubing) into the cockpit so your co-pilot can make adjustments in
flight.
If the airspeed is reading too, it is quite likely a problem with the static
system. This could be a static system leak, or a poorly designed or located
static port. Errors in the static system will affect both airspeed and
altitude, so it is much better to find and fix the static source problem
than it is to create a pitot leak too.
If you were to fiddle with the pitot system to fix the ASI indication (or
provide ASI adjustments, as some EFIS systems allow), you would still have
errors in the altimeter, and these can be safety of flight issues. The TCAS
systems on larger aircraft provide guidance to avoid collision with you
based on whatever altitude is reported by your transponder. If you have
static system errors, the TCAS system may be giving commands that increase
the risk of collision.
Static system leaks on RVs often produce ASIs that read about 10 kt too
high, so the first thing to do is a static system leak check. Another
common problem is flush mounted static ports on RVs, but this typically
leads to ASIs reading too low.
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
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Subject: | Re: First Engine Start Problem |
________________________________
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Tue, December 27, 2011 11:27:05 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: First Engine Start Problem
At 08:46 AM 12/27/2011, you wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply. I will be going to the airport today and take
inventory of the e-bus goodies. I understand and accept that this could be an
over-Load problem so I may need to transfer a couple things to the main bus.
What troubles me is I have had this E-bus circuit working many times with
everything turned on sometimes for 5 to 10 minutes without a hitch. Will start
with a current tally and get back.
In particular, do you have any loads that are not
generally described in the suggested list of
endurance goodies I've written about? Is your
starter system dependent upon e-bus supply of
energy in any way?
No, the starter system is drawn off the main buss. I was not able to take a
tally on the goodies today but it is in the cards for tomorrow. I will get back
the info to the list as soon as I round it up. I will say that there are quite
a
few things on the E-Bus as compared to the Main. Doing a tally on the amps drawn
when all is on at the E-Bus is something I neglected to do, so I am quite
interested in figuring it out. Thanks all for the comments and suggestions.
Dan
Bob . . .
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Picture #1 is the old system that approximates mine, though there are some
additional C.B. switches and fuses in some lines. #2 is what I would like
to go with. The DPST Master Switch would be replaced with a SPST 5 Amp C.B.
switch and 16 would be a simple Master Switch connected to the battery
relay. Any thoughts, suggestions, or warnings would be appreciated.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relays
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 10:56 AM 12/27/2011, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>In the original 1998 Rotax Installation Manual the schematic didn't
>show anything fancy. But the newest incarnation (May 2009) has both a
>starter relay and a battery relay. I've talked to at least 2 Rotax
>techs, the Rans tech, my own mechanic, as well as others and everyone
>seems to say something different. I think I've decided to go with the
>latest schematic which has a 5 A and a 50 A fuse/C.B. in the external
>alternator circuit as well as a DPST master switch that connects the 5
>A line from the IG connection on the alternator to the battery relay.
>There is also a 25 A fuse/C.B. in the R, B+, C lines from the
>regulator/rectifier in the internal alternator circuit. Both
>alternators run at the same time then, all the time, although the 5 A
>C.B. will be switched so I can shut down the external alternator if I
>want to. I assume there is one line coming out of the external alt.
>circuit and another from the internal circuit that both connect to the
>consumers bus. Is this correct with both running at the same time?
>Any comments on any of these issues will be appreciated.
Forgive me but a schematic is many times more lucid than
a verbal description. Can you send/post/link a copy of the
diagram that strikes your fancy?
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... |
At 07:39 PM 12/26/2011 Monday, Matt Dralle wrote:
>Dear Listers,
>
>I've been flying the new 10" Dynon Skyview in the RV-6 for a few weeks now and
it seems like the airspeed is reading maybe 10mph fast. The GS always reads
10mph or more slower than the True airspeed, no matter which way I fly with respect
to the current wind. Looking through the configuration options on the Skyview,
I'm not seeing parameters to calibrate the airspeed. If the airspeed
were *slow* compared to the GS, I could envision making adjustments to the Pitot
tube to get it in better alignment with slipstream. But *fast* is a head scratcher.
If there's no electronic configuration parameters to adjust, what do
you do? Are there Pitot line "attenuators" like for RF in coax? ;-)
>
>Matt
Listers,
Thank you for all the great suggestions on resolving this airspeed issue! I took
a look at the static ports on the RV-6 today and found that they are done using
a flush head screw with a hole drilled in the center on either side of the
fuselage. They do *not* protrude from the side of the plane at all. They are
totally flush (see attached picture). Just for fun, I whipped up a couple
of quick test deals using a 3/16" washer and some electrical tape. I poked a
1/16" hole in the center of the tape and then put the washer centered over the
static ports on both sides of the fuselage (see attached pictures). Then, I
went flying on this beautiful December 27 day in California!
I didn't have time to do any real scientific multi-leg testing, but I was amazed
that the True Airspeed is now falling in a much more believable range compared
to the GPS-derived ground speed. On one cross-country leg, I had an exactly
90 degree crosswind component and the True Airspeed and GPS Ground Speed were
tracking exactly the same. Yahoo!
Obviously I need to do some additional, more scientific measurements and probably
come up with a slightly more "permanent" washer arrangement, but the early
returns are very promising! :-)
Thanks again for all the great feedback!
Matt
-
Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
Status: 42+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode
Message 24
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Subject: | Dynon Skyview vs. GRT HX EFIS... |
>At 09:47 PM 12/27/2011 Tuesday, you wrote:
>I have looked at the Dynon stuff up at Arlington Air Show the past two years
>and really like the looks of them. They added autopilot and said last year
>that they were about to announce communications added to their system. A
>single 10" screen to do everything would be pretty easy to install learn to
>operate. Mostly Dynon looks best in the magazines. I guess you get used to
>any of them or they would not all still be in business.
>Pete
I have a Dynon 10" Skyview in the RV-6:
http://www.mattsrv6.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV6&project 43&category=0&log=138164&row=45
http://www.mattsrv6.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV6&project 43&category=0&log=138163&row=46
and a triple GRT HX setup in the RV-8:
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2973&log'376&row=134
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/display_log.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category=2973&log'375&row=135
I've flown the GRT HX setup about 170 hours and the Dynon Skyview system about
45 hours now.
Which do I prefer? That's a tough call. There are parts about each system that
I like a lot...
The installation and configuration of the Dynon is easier. Instructions are also
better. The network cable interconnect system that Dynon uses (I think it
is just RS485, but it works well) is also a no-brainer to install. Their display
(PFD/Engine/Map) are definitely very pretty and demo well.
The GRT is a little harder to get installed, the manual is a little sketchy in
places and there are a LOT of configuration options that can seem daunting at
first. BUT, there is power and utility in those options. If you use them to
your advantage, you can probably do more, better on the GRT compared to the Dynon.
The displays on the GRT don't have the "3D-y", "Windows-y" look to them.
BUT, I think I'm preferring that at this point. Doing a scan on the GRT looking
for something out of the ordinary is quicker and more accurate. I also like
the PFD layout and operation on the GRT better. It feels more "accurate"
and "believable" to me for some reason. I never quite "trust" what I'm seeing
on the Dynon for some reason and I don't know why. Maybe I just need more time
on the Dynon.
So, the Dynon has it for Installation and Configuation, but the GRT has it for
Operation and Presentation as far as I'm concerned. If I was building a new plane,
I think that I would probably go with the GRT. But its a close race. I
really like the Dynon system too.
I guess I'm saying if you're in the market for a full-featured EFIS system, give
GRT and Dynon both very close look before you make your selection. In my opinion,
it comes down to personal preferences in a few select areas on which way
to go. Both systems are top notch.
BTW, Dynon's autopilot add-on for the Skyview which I have in the RV-6 works well.
Its a good autopilot that does the job. The servos are the same as with
the TruTrak system. In the RV-8, I have the TruTrak Digiflight II VSGV system.
The TruTrak is a smoother, more accurate autopilot in my opinion, and I would
go that route again. But, it also costs quite a bit more than just adding
servos to the Dynon or GRT.
$.02
-
Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"
http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log
Status: 42+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode
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