AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Wed 12/28/11


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:11 AM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (Glen Matejcek)
     2. 03:00 AM - Re: Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... (Peter Pengilly)
     3. 05:07 AM - Re: Relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 05:15 AM - Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration... ()
     5. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: First Engine Start Problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: First Engine Start Problem (Dan Billingsley)
     7. 07:29 AM - Re: First Engine Start Problem (user9253)
     8. 08:01 AM - 12v to 24v DC-DC converter circuit ()
     9. 09:30 AM - Re: 12v to 24v DC-DC converter circuit (Peter Mather)
    10. 09:39 AM - Re: 12v to 24v DC-DC converter circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 11:54 AM - Re: Relays (bnelson79@charter.net)
    12. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: First Engine Start Problem (Dan Billingsley)
    13. 05:57 PM - Re: Re: First Engine Start Problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 06:35 PM - Main Battery Contactor (cdnch701builder)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:11:39 AM PST US
    From: Glen Matejcek <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: First Engine Start Problem
    Howdy- Re: we decided to >then let the starter do the work. The starter turned the engine over well, >however, I was dismayed when my whole panel of avionics went dead. I of cou >rse quit cranking and began troubleshooting. It didn't take long to find th >at the fuseable link off the Batt Contactor (heading to the E-Bus) burned t >hrough. I went ahead and bypassed the link with 16 AWG and was able to comp >lete a successful first engine start. I'm on the road at the moment (beautiful dowtown Bahrain...) and don't have the relevant docs with me, but if Z-16 has the E bus fed through a diode down stream from the battery contactor and / or through the E bus switch from upstream of the battery contactor, and the diode were installed reverse biased..... Without other explicit details, this and the idea about engine flail bringing a grounded chunk of hardware into physical contact with an energized bit of the E bus architecture are all I can think of. Glen Matejcek


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:00:12 AM PST US
    From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Re: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration...
    You could just cut the head off the pop rivet that Van's recommends and stick that on with epoxy (or double sided tape to start with)? Peter On 28/12/2011 05:12, Matt Dralle wrote: > At 07:39 PM 12/26/2011 Monday, Matt Dralle wrote: >> Dear Listers, >> >> I've been flying the new 10" Dynon Skyview in the RV-6 for a few weeks now and it seems like the airspeed is reading maybe 10mph fast. The GS always reads 10mph or more slower than the True airspeed, no matter which way I fly with respect to the current wind. Looking through the configuration options on the Skyview, I'm not seeing parameters to calibrate the airspeed. If the airspeed were *slow* compared to the GS, I could envision making adjustments to the Pitot tube to get it in better alignment with slipstream. But *fast* is a head scratcher. If there's no electronic configuration parameters to adjust, what do you do? Are there Pitot line "attenuators" like for RF in coax? ;-) >> >> Matt > > Listers, > > Thank you for all the great suggestions on resolving this airspeed issue! I took a look at the static ports on the RV-6 today and found that they are done using a flush head screw with a hole drilled in the center on either side of the fuselage. They do *not* protrude from the side of the plane at all. They are totally flush (see attached picture). Just for fun, I whipped up a couple of quick test deals using a 3/16" washer and some electrical tape. I poked a 1/16" hole in the center of the tape and then put the washer centered over the static ports on both sides of the fuselage (see attached pictures). Then, I went flying on this beautiful December 27 day in California! > > I didn't have time to do any real scientific multi-leg testing, but I was amazed that the True Airspeed is now falling in a much more believable range compared to the GPS-derived ground speed. On one cross-country leg, I had an exactly 90 degree crosswind component and the True Airspeed and GPS Ground Speed were tracking exactly the same. Yahoo! > > Obviously I need to do some additional, more scientific measurements and probably come up with a slightly more "permanent" washer arrangement, but the early returns are very promising! :-) > > Thanks again for all the great feedback! > > Matt > > > - > Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... > > RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" > http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log > Status: 42+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:07:58 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Relays
    At 10:48 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: >Picture #1 is the old system that approximates mine, though there are some >additional C.B. switches and fuses in some lines. #2 is what I would like >to go with. The DPST Master Switch would be replaced with a SPST 5 Amp C.B. >switch and 16 would be a simple Master Switch connected to the battery >relay. Any thoughts, suggestions, or warnings would be appreciated. >Bill Okay, the first thing I would do is put those two drawings in the round-file. These are typical "how things work" illustrations produced by individuals who are very good at what they do . . . build engines . . . but are not cogent system integrators. The drawings are not incorrect . . . but they fall far short of the details and reasoning processes that should be applied to the vetting of your electrical system. Suggest you start with Figure Z-12 . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12M.pdf . . . and see where it doesn't meet YOUR design goals for how the electrical system should function. If you have no particular wish for an operating feature that is not addressed by Z-16, then you're good to go. If there are questions, let's talk about them here on the List. The externally regulated alternator can be replaced with the internally regulated alternator depicted in the Rotax drawings. The 18A PM alternator can replace the 20A standby alternator depicted in Z-12. But the architecture shown in Z-12 is a good starting point. I could do a new Z-figure that is seeded from the Rotax drawing for dual alternators. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:15:32 AM PST US
    From: <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Dynon Skyview Airspeed Calibration...
    12/28/2011 Hello Matt, I think that you are on the right track. The correct approach is to use a semi circular wedge either before or aft of the static port in order to achieve the results required. Here is the sequence that I went through with my two static ports (one on each side of the fuselage) in order to lower my airspeed indicator airspeed indication before I was satisfied with the results: 1) Taped over one side static port and test flew. 2) Removed the first tape, taped over the other side static port and test flew. 3) Put wedges aft of both side static ports using double sided sticky tape and test flew. 4) Removed wedge from one side static port and test flew. 5) Switched the single wedge from one side static port to the other side static port and test flew. 6) Declared victory and installed the single wedge more permanently. Note that my focus was on good airspeed indication at landing approach airspeeds, not at cruise airspeeds. On a calm / no wind day a check between my airspeed indicator airspeed and my GPS ground speed on landing approach are very nearly identical. I see no significant altimeter change indication with airspeed change. The next time I am out at the airport (if I remember) I will take a photo or two of the single aluminum wedge on one of my static ports and email it to you. Good luck. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." ===================================================== Listers, Thank you for all the great suggestions on resolving this airspeed issue! I took a look at the static ports on the RV-6 today and found that they are done using a flush head screw with a hole drilled in the center on either side of the fuselage. They do *not* protrude from the side of the plane at all. They are totally flush (see attached picture). Just for fun, I whipped up a couple of quick test deals using a 3/16" washer and some electrical tape. I poked a 1/16" hole in the center of the tape and then put the washer centered over the static ports on both sides of the fuselage (see attached pictures). Then, I went flying on this beautiful December 27 day in California! I didn't have time to do any real scientific multi-leg testing, but I was amazed that the True Airspeed is now falling in a much more believable range compared to the GPS-derived ground speed. On one cross-country leg, I had an exactly 90 degree crosswind component and the True Airspeed and GPS Ground Speed were tracking exactly the same. Yahoo! Obviously I need to do some additional, more scientific measurements and probably come up with a slightly more "permanent" washer arrangement, but the early returns are very promising! :-) Thanks again for all the great feedback! Matt


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:07:49 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: First Engine Start Problem
    I'm on the road at the moment (beautiful dowtown Bahrain...) and don't have the relevant docs with me, but if Z-16 has the E bus fed through a diode down stream from the battery contactor and / or through the E bus switch from upstream of the battery contactor, and the diode were installed reverse biased..... Good call Glen. I did not pick up on the fact that the fusible link in question was in series with the ALTERNATE feed switch . . . which should be OPEN for all but pre-flight tests -OR- in-flight, alternator-out operations. Combine this closed switch with a reversed NORMAL feed path diode could account for the severe overload of the link. Dan, do your e-bus feed accessories work with the alternate feed switch OFF? If not, check the normal feed path diode for proper polarity. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:39:12 AM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: First Engine Start Problem
    =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nucko lls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronic s.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 7:03 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroEl ectric-List: Re: First Engine Start Problem=0A> =0A>--> AeroElectric-List m essage posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>I'm on the road at the moment (beautiful dowtown Bahrain... ) and don't have the relevant docs with me, but if Z-16 has the E bus fed t hrough a diode down stream from the battery contactor and / or through the E bus switch from upstream of the battery contactor, and the diode were ins talled reverse biased.....=0A>=0A>- Good call Glen. I did not pick up on the=0A>- fact that the fusible link in question was=0A>- in series with the ALTERNATE feed switch . . .=0A>- which should be OPEN for all but pr e-flight=0A>- tests -OR- in-flight, alternator-out operations.=0A>=0A>- Combine this closed switch with a reversed=0A>- NORMAL feed path diode c ould account for the=0A>- severe overload of the link.=0A>=0A>- Dan, do your e-bus feed accessories work with=0A>- the alternate feed switch OFF ? If not, check=0A>- the normal feed path diode for proper polarity.=0A> =0A>No, the E-Bus switch must be ON in order for any of the accessories to operate. I will take another look at the diode polarity as well. One of the guys I am working with suggested I not turn on the E-Bus switch until Afte r I start the engine. That could become a practice, yet it does go against the grain of how things "should" work. Will get back with the info soon.- - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =====0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:29:37 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: First Engine Start Problem
    From: "user9253" <fran4sew@banyanol.com>
    > No, the E-Bus switch must be ON in order for any of the accessories to operate. I will take another look at the diode polarity as well. One of the guys I am working with suggested I not turn on the E-Bus switch until After I start the engine. The E-Bus should be energized with the E-Bus switch off and the master switch on. If not, the diode is backwards. Although it will not hurt anything to fly with the E-Bus switch turned on, it is intended to be turned on only in the event that power is not available through the diode. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361838#361838


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:01:00 AM PST US
    From: <berkut13@berkut13.com>
    Subject: 12v to 24v DC-DC converter circuit
    Before I go off and reinvent the wheel.... does anyone have a DC-DC converter circuit design they can share with me? A off-the-shelf unit would be fine too. I have a small altimeter on my natively 12v aircraft that requires 28v (as spec'ed) for internal lighting (two tiny bulbs) and a vibrator. It does not specify a current draw, but it cant be very much given the usage. Thanks in advance. -James Berkut/Race13 www.berkut13.com


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:30:43 AM PST US
    From: "Peter Mather" <peter@mather.com>
    Subject: 12v to 24v DC-DC converter circuit
    Have aloo0k for a LM2577 DC-DC step-up DC converter board on ebay Best Regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of berkut13@berkut13.com Sent: 28 December 2011 15:56 Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12v to 24v DC-DC converter circuit Before I go off and reinvent the wheel.... does anyone have a DC-DC converter circuit design they can share with me? A off-the-shelf unit would be fine too. I have a small altimeter on my natively 12v aircraft that requires 28v (as spec'ed) for internal lighting (two tiny bulbs) and a vibrator. It does not specify a current draw, but it cant be very much given the usage. Thanks in advance. -James Berkut/Race13 www.berkut13.com


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:39:38 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: 12v to 24v DC-DC converter circuit
    At 09:56 AM 12/28/2011, you wrote: > >Before I go off and reinvent the wheel.... does anyone have a DC-DC >converter circuit design they can share with me? A off-the-shelf unit >would be fine too. > >I have a small altimeter on my natively 12v aircraft that requires 28v (as >spec'ed) for internal lighting (two tiny bulbs) and a vibrator. It does >not specify a current draw, but it cant be very much given the usage. There are perhaps hundreds of possibilities. One such device is illustrated here: http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UEI15-120-Q12P-C/811-1868-5-ND/1980326 It's an ISOLATED output dc-dc converter rated for 9-36v input and 12v out at 1.3A. You can wire this such that it's in series with the 14v input giving you a total of 26v output. CAUTION As supplied, it MIGHT need a metallic enclosure + RF filters to keep internal thrashings from radiating into other systems. You'll want to survey the operation of your radios with this device ON vs OFF and make sure it is not engaged in nepharious behaviors. Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:54:17 AM PST US
    From: bnelson79@charter.net
    Subject: Relays
    Bob, Thanks for the response and the schematic. But as I look at it I pinked out everything that my setup doesn't have and ended up with over half the diagram pinked out. Your diagram does show me where and how the two relays (contactors) fit into the system though and that is helpful. I've also got the rotary ACS starter switch to work with rather then just a simple switch or push button. What makes the most sense is adding the battery relay (connected to battery, master switch, power bus and starter relay) and having the starter relay connected to battery relay, starter, internal alternator 20 amp capacitor to internal alternator, starter switch, and external alternator 60 amp fuse to external alternator. Then schematic #2 that I sent you seems to make the most sense to me. Any other comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks again. Bill On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 5:04 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 10:48 PM 12/27/2011, you wrote: >> Picture #1 is the old system that approximates mine, though there are >> some >> additional C.B. switches and fuses in some lines. #2 is what I would >> like >> to go with. The DPST Master Switch would be replaced with a SPST 5 >> Amp C.B. >> switch and 16 would be a simple Master Switch connected to the >> battery >> relay. Any thoughts, suggestions, or warnings would be appreciated. >> Bill > > Okay, the first thing I would do is put those two drawings > in the round-file. These are typical "how things work" illustrations > produced by individuals who are very good at what they do . . . > build engines . . . but are not cogent system integrators. > > The drawings are not incorrect . . . but they fall far short > of the details and reasoning processes that should be > applied to the vetting of your electrical system. > > Suggest you start with Figure Z-12 . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12M.pdf > > . . . and see where it doesn't meet YOUR design goals > for how the electrical system should function. > > If you have no particular wish for an operating feature that > is not addressed by Z-16, then you're good to go. If there > are questions, let's talk about them here on the List. The > externally regulated alternator can be replaced with the > internally regulated alternator depicted in the Rotax drawings. > The 18A PM alternator can replace the 20A standby alternator > depicted in Z-12. But the architecture shown in Z-12 is a > good starting point. I could do a new Z-figure that is seeded > from the Rotax drawing for dual alternators. > > > Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 05:43:26 PM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: First Engine Start Problem
    Bob and Joe, thank you for pointing out both over loading ( I went back and read note 12) and the fact that the E-bus should be working with the Alter nate switch off. To tell the truth, I have not tried it that way (w/just th e Master on). If it does not work I do see that would mean the diode betwee n the two buses is in backwards. I did check the diode position on the Batt Contactor and it IS installed the right way. I now have at the very least, some changing of circuits over to the Main bus. Will report back on findin gs after tomorrow.-=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A > From: user9253 <fran4sew@banyanol.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics .com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 8:25 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectri c-List: Re: First Engine Start Problem=0A> =0A>--> AeroElectric-List messag e posted by: "user9253" <fran4sew@banyanol.com>=0A>=0A>=0A>> No, the E-Bus switch must be ON in order for any of the accessories to operate. I will ta ke another look at the diode polarity as well. One of the guys I am working with suggested I not turn on the E-Bus switch until After I start the engi ne.=0A>=0A>The E-Bus should be energized with the E-Bus switch off and the master switch on.- If not, the diode is backwards.=0A>- Although it wil l not hurt anything to fly with the E-Bus switch turned on, it is intended to be turned on only in the event that power is not available through the d iode.=0A>Joe=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Joe Gores=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topi c online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361838# =========================0A - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =====0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>


    Message 13


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    Time: 05:57:08 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: First Engine Start Problem
    At 07:39 PM 12/28/2011, you wrote: >Bob and Joe, thank you for pointing out both over loading ( I went >back and read note 12) and the fact that the E-bus should be working >with the Alternate switch off. To tell the truth, I have not tried >it that way (w/just the Master on). If it does not work I do see >that would mean the diode between the two buses is in backwards. I >did check the diode position on the Batt Contactor and it IS >installed the right way. I now have at the very least, some changing >of circuits over to the Main bus. Will report back on findings after tomorrow. Blowing a fusible link is a rather non-trivial event. 22AWG wire is capable of considerable more current than the legacy rating in wire bundles of 5A would suggest. It would be interesting to get a real current measurement of all your goodies before you start moving things. Clip an ammeter across the alternate feed switch while the master switch is off. Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 06:35:35 PM PST US
    From: cdnch701builder <cdnch701@mts.net>
    Subject: Main Battery Contactor
    Hey Bob... I'm looking at Z-12! Can you tell me the difference between the Battery Contactor(no number) on Z-12 and B&C's - S701-1? Are they the same... and Can the S701-1 be used for the main battery contactor? Thanks Ron




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