---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/04/12: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:04 AM - (bob noffs) 2. 07:01 AM - Re: (Doug Ilg) 3. 07:59 AM - Re: (Ken Lehman) 4. 08:34 AM - Re: (BobsV35B@aol.com) 5. 09:06 AM - Re: (Jared Yates) 6. 09:19 AM - Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? (Noel Loveys) 7. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Harness (Bill Watson) 8. 09:38 AM - Re: (Bill Watson) 9. 10:07 AM - Hall Effect Current Sensor with Z13/8 (Bob Marshall) 10. 10:29 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Harness (Ron Raby) 11. 10:46 AM - Re: (BobsV35B@aol.com) 12. 10:53 AM - Re: (David) 13. 11:28 AM - Re: (BobsV35B@aol.com) 14. 11:36 AM - Re: (BobsV35B@aol.com) 15. 11:51 AM - Re: (Bill Watson) 16. 01:03 PM - Re: (BobsV35B@aol.com) 17. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? (Noel Loveys) 18. 02:27 PM - 14 volt bus / voltage regulator? (Andy Hawes) 19. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Wiring Harness (Bill Watson) 20. 03:31 PM - Re: 14 volt bus / voltage regulator? (Dave Saylor) 21. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? (Jared Yates) 22. 04:32 PM - Re: (Jared Yates) 23. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? (Noel Loveys) 24. 08:02 PM - 25 stainbless cable ties for 5$ (rparigoris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:54 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: From: bob noffs seems what this world[or at least me] needs is a gps driven directional gyro. i know that most gps units have part of a compass rose displayed but for the price of a mechanical one i would think a plain simple dg that mounts in a conventional 3'' hole and is gps driven would be cheap and popular. or at least a program to drive a palm pilot, tapping off the gps of another unit. bob noffs ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:31 AM PST US From: Doug Ilg Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob (Noffs),=0A=0AMost GPS units made over the last 10 years, or so, have t hat exact feature.- The difference being that they don't display on a sep arate instrument.=0A=0AOf course, the likely reason that this hasn't been m arketed as a replacement for the old DG is that it's not really the same as a DG.- A DG shows heading, while a GPS only knows track (derived from su ccessive positions).- Depending on wind conditions and your airspeed, tho se two can differ by a considerable amount.=0A=0A-=0ADoug Ilg=0AGrumman T iger N74818, College Park-Airport (KCGS), Maryland=0AChallenger II LSS LW (N641LG-reserved)-- kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18)=0Ado not arc hive=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: bob no ffs =0A>To: aeroelectric list =0A>Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 6:59 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectri c-List:=0A> =0A>=0A>seems what this world[or at least me] needs is a gps dr iven directional gyro. i know that most gps units have part of a compass ro se displayed but for the price of a mechanical one i would think a plain si mple dg that mounts in a conventional 3'' hole and is gps driven would be c heap and popular. =0A>- or at least a program to drive a palm pilot, tapp ing off the gps of another unit.=0A>-- bob noffs=0A> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:59 AM PST US From: "Ken Lehman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some rnav units that have airspeed inputs calculate drift and simply use a lookup table to convert track to magnetic dg info. In some cases these headings have gone out of acceptable tolerance due to variation changes and lookup tables that have not been updated for tens of years. Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach. Ken > > Bob (Noffs), > > Most GPS units made over the last 10 years, or so, have that exact feature. The difference being that they don't display on a separate instrument. > > Of course, the likely reason that this hasn't been marketed as a replacement for the old DG is that it's not really the same as a DG. A DG shows heading, while a GPS only knows track (derived from successive positions). Depending on wind conditions and your airspeed, those two can differ by a considerable amount. > > > Doug Ilg > Grumman Tiger N74818, College ParkAirport (KCGS), Maryland > Challenger II LSS LW (N641LGreserved)- kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18) > do not archive > > > > > > >________________________________ > > From: bob noffs > >To: aeroelectric list > >Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 6:59 AM > >Subject: AeroElectric-List: > > > > > >seems what this world[or at least me] needs is a gps driven directional gyro. i know that most gps units have part of a compass rose displayed but for the price of a mechanical one i would think a plain simple dg that mounts in a conventional 3'' hole and is gps driven would be cheap and popular. > > or at least a program to drive a palm pilot, tapping off the gps of another unit. > > bob noffs > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:29 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Good Morning Ken, You said: "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach." While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the Aeroelectric list, I would like to comment. If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of shooting an NDB approach and the only method currently legal is to use an ADF combined with a legal compass heading. Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just a fixed or manually rotatable loop and compass. No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to execute the approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport location as the 'go to' destination and fly the track to the airport. While heading is always nice to know, (it helps us determine where to look when visibility is marginal,) it pales in importance to staying on track toward the airport. Just sayin' nothin' else Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 1/4/2012 10:01:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, klehman@albedo.net writes: Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:20 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: From: Jared Yates Hmmm.... I thought we could substitute an ifr gps for adf in ndb approaches. When you say compass, do you mean magnetically derived heading? On Jan 4, 2012, at 11:27, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Ken, > > You said: > "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach." > > While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the Aeroelectric l ist, I would like to comment. > > If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of shooting an N DB approach and the only method currently legal is to use an ADF combined wi th a legal compass heading. > > Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just a fixed o r manually rotatable loop and compass. > > No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. > > If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to execute the approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport location as the 'go to' d estination and fly the track to the airport. While heading is always nice to know, (it helps us determine where to look when visibility is marginal,) it pales in importance to staying on track toward the airport. > > Just sayin' nothin' else > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > In a message dated 1/4/2012 10:01:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, klehman@a lbedo.net writes: > Several degrees of error can become problematical for > things like an RNAV NDB approach. > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:30 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? The sensors are in fact just two rings of metal like a sleeve one inside the other. Fuel has a particular dielectric value so with increase in fuel level the capacitance of the sleeves one to the other changes. Why you would want one? There are several reasons. One is by varying the shape of the rings you can make a sensor that will compensate for an odd shape of tank. You can also wire more than one sensor in parallel to give accurate readings on a tank that can hold a fair amount of fuel and still have one end of the tank completely dry. For instance in an aircraft that has considerable dihedral and wet wings. Finally in all capacitive systems there is a calibration probe which has to be installed at the bottom of the tank. Water has a completely different dielectric constant from fuel so if any water gets into your tanks and even partially submerges this probe a light will immediately alert you. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: January 2, 2012 1:44 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? How do capacitive fuel sensors work? Can someone give me the general theory of operation, what type of signal does the transducer produce? Why do I want one? Etc? TIA ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:30 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Harness In other words, using a template or form board is a mass production technique. Kind of the opposite of what we are doing in the OBAM world. Conversely, it would seem reasonable to think we can do a superior job with our hand built, single craftsman approach. Of course our amateur skills may cancel out any skilled craftsman advantage. Bill "reflecting on the joys of OBAM aircraft" Watson >> >> How about building the harness on a template. That way it can be >> built outside the aircraft tested and inspected before instalation. > > That IS how the 'big' guys do it. But they often build the proof > of concept harness in the airplane, take it out and build > a form-board to match it. Even with full 3-D CAD systems, it's > difficult to build a first-article that really fits the airplane > the way the craftsmen would like it. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:31 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Yes, what Bob said. I'm thinking that track is better than heading. And if I recall correctly, when many of those NDB approaches had GPS overlays a few years ago, you didn't require an ADF (or the ability to fly a mag heading), you just used a certified GPS to fly the NDB tracks. (do any of those still exist - the ones I used to fly are all replaced by RNAV T approaches) I guess what you are getting at is that you'd like to avoid having to install a DG by using a GPS driven instrument. My glass panel gives me mag headings from the EFIS's AHRS system and allows me to easily follow vectors. Otherwise, I don't have a whiskey compass or vacuum driven heading instrument. The key question is what happens with an electronics failure... well I have a GRT ADI instrument with a GPS and an independent backup battery. It just gives me a digital track readout along with turn coordinator function and a quasi-horizon. I can't follow a mag heading but I can fly a track pretty darn accurately. Bill "not completely off-topic" Watson On 1/4/2012 11:27 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Ken, > You said: > "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an > RNAV NDB approach." > While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the > Aeroelectric list, I would like to comment. > If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of shooting > an NDB approach and the only method currently legal is to use an ADF > combined with a legal compass heading. > Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just a > fixed or manually rotatable loop and compass. > No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. > If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to execute > the approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport location as the > 'go to' destination and fly the track to the airport. While heading is > always nice to know, (it helps us determine where to look when > visibility is marginal,) it pales in importance to staying on track > toward the airport. > Just sayin' nothin' else > Happy Skies, > Old Bob > I ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Current Sensor with Z13/8 From: "Bob Marshall" My RV6A is being built based on Z13/8 with dual Dynon EFIS and an SD-8 back up alternator. Dynon has just updated its EFIS to allow installation of the GRT CS-01 Hall Effect Current Sensor (in addition to the standard loadmeter shunt at the alternator) and I was wondering what the consensus was as to where to place it. I want to read total amps being used when the main alternator is off line. So, my initial thought would be to place it on the main (#2 AWG) conductor from the Battery to the Battery Contactor. This would give me total amps with the Main Alternator on-line and total amps with the main off-line and the SD8 on- line? I could also place it exactly where the shunt is shown for the SD-8 and that would just give me SD8 output? Thanks for any thoughts on this. Bob -------- RV-6A construction resumed. Planning electrical and building wing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362405#362405 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/amp_he_rev_b_156.pdf ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:13 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Harness Hi Bill, Bob Actually we build both high volume and low volume harnesses at my company. Almost all of the harnesses we build use a harness board. Non of the harness drawings, of the thousands we build were developed with 3d cad, all were done in 2d. Attached is a small harness drawing with a wire run list in pdf format for everyone to look at. Qty 2, 4 x 8 sheets of plywood end to end could simulate the fusalage of most planes. My intension is to give people ideas that may help. I am not trying to sell anything. the link is to my website and shows some pictures of completed harnesses. http://www.advanceddesign.com/products_harnesscable.html Regards Ron Raby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Watson" Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:15 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Harness > > > In other words, using a template or form board is a mass production > technique. Kind of the opposite of what we are doing in the OBAM world. > > Conversely, it would seem reasonable to think we can do a superior job > with our hand built, single craftsman approach. Of course our amateur > skills may cancel out any skilled craftsman advantage. > > Bill "reflecting on the joys of OBAM aircraft" Watson >>> >>> How about building the harness on a template. That way it can be built >>> outside the aircraft tested and inspected before instalation. >> >> That IS how the 'big' guys do it. But they often build the proof >> of concept harness in the airplane, take it out and build >> a form-board to match it. Even with full 3-D CAD systems, it's >> difficult to build a first-article that really fits the airplane >> the way the craftsmen would like it. >> >> >> Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:52 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Good Morning Bill, Just a little bit more off topic if I may. The overlay program was instituted to get a lot of early use out of GPS approaches. When you executed an overlay approach. all the guidance was strictly via GPS. The only thing used from the ADF approach was the minima. Many divisions of the FAA were strongly against the overlay program and the FAA is now removing the overlays as fast as practical. Very few still exist. In most cases, the new approach which replaces the overlay will have better minima, bit not always. To pat myself on the back just a bit, I do have some expertise on that program. I was an early adopter and fought hard for the use of GPS In Lieu of ADF and DME. With the help of Randy Kenagy and Phil Boyer of ALPA . We got it done. I was contacted by a gentleman named Bob Wright who was in the position within the FAA to get the job done. It took almost a year, but we did get that permission and I am VERY proud of what we got done. If you get to the correct FAA FED, things can work correctly Happy Skies. Old Bragging Bob In a message dated 1/4/2012 11:39:45 A.M. Central Standard Time, Mauledriver@nc.rr.com writes: Yes, what Bob said. I'm thinking that track is better than heading. And if I recall correctly, when many of those NDB approaches had GPS overlays a few years ago, you didn't require an ADF (or the ability to fly a mag heading), you just used a certified GPS to fly the NDB tracks. (do any of those still exist - the ones I used to fly are all replaced by RNAV T approaches) I guess what you are getting at is that you'd like to avoid having to install a DG by using a GPS driven instrument. My glass panel gives me mag headings from the EFIS's AHRS system and allows me to easily follow vectors. Otherwise, I don't have a whiskey compass or vacuum driven heading instrument. The key question is what happens with an electronics failure... well I have a GRT ADI instrument with a GPS and an independent backup battery. It just gives me a digital track readout along with turn coordinator function and a quasi-horizon. I can't follow a mag heading but I can fly a track pretty darn accurately. Bill "not completely off-topic" Watson On 1/4/2012 11:27 AM, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) wrote: Good Morning Ken, You said: "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach." While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the AeroElectric list, I would like to comment. If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of shooting an NDB approach and the only method currently legal is to use an ADF combined with a legal compass heading. Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just a fixed or manually rotatable loop and compass. No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to execute the approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport location as the 'go to' destination and fly the track to the airport. While heading is always nice to know, (it helps us determine where to look when visibility is marginal,) it pales in importance to staying on track toward the airport. Just sayin' nothin' else Happy Skies, Old Bob I (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:16 AM PST US From: David Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Yeah, until the 4G phones get installed. bob noffs wrote: > seems what this world[or at least me] needs is a gps driven > directional gyro. i know that most gps units have part of a compass > rose displayed but for the price of a mechanical one i would think a > plain simple dg that mounts in a conventional 3'' hole and is gps > driven would be cheap and popular. > or at least a program to drive a palm pilot, tapping off the gps of > another unit. > bob noffs > * > > > * -- Tell the truth. Be honest. Be responsible to and for yourself. I liked America when it was free and it's people were responsible and had morals. Every gram of cocaine you buy from elsewhere contributes to an innocent being murdered in Central and South America. Grow your own or Stop taking it. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:55 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Good Morning -- Is it Jared? The GPS cannot be used in lieu of an ADF for an ADF approach. It can be used for all other functions of the ADF, but not when the ADF is the basis for the approach. If there is a published overlay, then the overlay approach can be executed. We tried to get permission to use it as you suggest, but the FEDs were firm. They told us that all ADF approaches would either get an overlay or a GPS approach that had better minima. While most have been handled that way, many have not. Does NOT make sense, but them's the rules. Happy Skies, Old Bob PS Incidentally, there are no longer any NDB approaches. They were all converted to ADF. In a message dated 1/4/2012 11:07:31 A.M. Central Standard Time, email@jaredyates.com writes: Hmmm.... I thought we could substitute an ifr gps for adf in ndb approaches. When you say compass, do you mean magnetically derived heading? On Jan 4, 2012, at 11:27, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) wrote: Good Morning Ken, You said: "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach." While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the Aeroelectric list, I would like to comment. If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of shooting an NDB approach and the only method currently legal is to use an ADF combined with a legal compass heading. Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just a fixed or manually rotatable loop and compass. No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to execute the approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport location as the 'go to' destination and fly the track to the airport. While heading is always nice to know, (it helps us determine where to look when visibility is marginal,) it pales in importance to staying on track toward the airport. Just sayin' nothin' else Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 1/4/2012 10:01:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, _klehman@albedo.net_ (mailto:klehman@albedo.net) writes: Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:39 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Good Afternoon, Just realized you asked a second question which I failed to address. ADF approaches are based on having good magnetically derived heading information. The approaches are not based on true courses as back when such approaches were developed, there was no practical way to get other than a magnetically derived heading in the airplane. When we use a Directional Gyro, we set it by the magnetic compass. Many modern units use a flux gate compass, but that is still magnetic. The DGs just provide stability that is difficult to get using a pure magnetic compass. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 1/4/2012 11:07:31 A.M. Central Standard Time, email@jaredyates.com writes: Hmmm.... I thought we could substitute an ifr gps for adf in ndb approaches. When you say compass, do you mean magnetically derived heading? On Jan 4, 2012, at 11:27, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) wrote: Good Morning Ken, You said: "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach." While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the Aeroelectric list, I would like to comment. If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of shooting an NDB approach and the only method currently legal is to use an ADF combined with a legal compass heading. Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just a fixed or manually rotatable loop and compass. No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to execute the approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport location as the 'go to' destination and fly the track to the airport. While heading is always nice to know, (it helps us determine where to look when visibility is marginal,) it pales in importance to staying on track toward the airport. Just sayin' nothin' else Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 1/4/2012 10:01:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, _klehman@albedo.net_ (mailto:klehman@albedo.net) writes: Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach. D========= (mip://0aa914f8/3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List") D========= (mip://0aa914f8/3D"http://forums.matronics.com") D========= (mip://0aa914f8/3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution") D========= ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:11 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Well thanks Bob! I for one fully exploited the overlay program. It allowed me to upgrade my Maule panel with a G300XL and not include an ADF. I did my training without ever having to learn to use and ADF and yet was able to take great advantage of all the ADF/overlay approaches for both training and travel. Now they seem quaint with RNAV T approaches, WAAS, and a 2 axis AP. Bill > Good Morning Bill, > Just a little bit more off topic if I may. > The overlay program was instituted to get a lot of early use out of > GPS approaches. When you executed an overlay approach. all the > guidance was strictly via GPS. The only thing used from the ADF > approach was the minima. Many divisions of the FAA were strongly > against the overlay program and the FAA is now removing the overlays > as fast as practical. Very few still exist. In most cases, the new > approach which replaces the overlay will have better minima, bit not > always. > To pat myself on the back just a bit, I do have some expertise on that > program. I was an early adopter and fought hard for the use of GPS In > Lieu of ADF and DME. With the help of Randy Kenagy and Phil Boyer of > ALPA . We got it done. I was contacted by a gentleman named Bob Wright > who was in the position within the FAA to get the job done. It took > almost a year, but we did get that permission and I am VERY proud of > what we got done. If you get to the correct FAA FED, things can work > correctly > Happy Skies. > Old Bragging Bob > In a message dated 1/4/2012 11:39:45 A.M. Central Standard Time, > Mauledriver@nc.rr.com writes: > > Yes, what Bob said. > > I'm thinking that track is better than heading. And if I recall > correctly, when many of those NDB approaches had GPS overlays a > few years ago, you didn't require an ADF (or the ability to fly a > mag heading), you just used a certified GPS to fly the NDB > tracks. (do any of those still exist - the ones I used to fly are > all replaced by RNAV T approaches) > > I guess what you are getting at is that you'd like to avoid having > to install a DG by using a GPS driven instrument. > > My glass panel gives me mag headings from the EFIS's AHRS system > and allows me to easily follow vectors. Otherwise, I don't have a > whiskey compass or vacuum driven heading instrument. The key > question is what happens with an electronics failure... well I > have a GRT ADI instrument with a GPS and an independent backup > battery. It just gives me a digital track readout along with turn > coordinator function and a quasi-horizon. I can't follow a mag > heading but I can fly a track pretty darn accurately. > > Bill "not completely off-topic" Watson > > On 1/4/2012 11:27 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >> Good Morning Ken, >> You said: >> "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things >> like an RNAV NDB approach." >> While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the >> AeroElectric list, I would like to comment. >> If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of >> shooting an NDB approach and the only method currently legal is >> to use an ADF combined with a legal compass heading. >> Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just >> a fixed or manually rotatable loop and compass. >> No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. >> If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to >> execute the approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport >> location as the 'go to' destination and fly the track to the >> airport. While heading is always nice to know, (it helps us >> determine where to look when visibility is marginal,) it pales in >> importance to staying on track toward the airport. >> Just sayin' nothin' else >> ** > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:25 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Good Afternoon Bill, That GNC300XL is a very good box at a reasonable price. Garmin did discontinue production about a year ago, but it is still supported and current data base updates are available. I have one in my Stearman and am very happy with it. You can still shoot all of the LNAV approaches. Every WAAS approach I know of has either an LNAV associated with it or there is a standalone LNAV to the same runway. Those Advisory Only glide paths are fun to fly, but it is my contention that the classic dive and drive technique will result in many more safely completed approaches. Check out the Advisory Only glide path on the N23 Rwy 7 approach. If someone should happen to follow that glide path below the MDA, they will hit solid rock prior to the runway threshold. The 300XL should be good for several more years. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 1/4/2012 1:53:06 P.M. Central Standard Time, Mauledriver@nc.rr.com writes: Well thanks Bob! I for one fully exploited the overlay program. It allowed me to upgrade my Maule panel with a G300XL and not include an ADF. I did my training without ever having to learn to use and ADF and yet was able to take great advantage of all the ADF/overlay approaches for both training and travel. Now they seem quaint with RNAV T approaches, WAAS, and a 2 axis AP. Bill Good Morning Bill, Just a little bit more off topic if I may. The overlay program was instituted to get a lot of early use out of GPS approaches. When you executed an overlay approach. all the guidance was strictly via GPS. The only thing used from the ADF approach was the minima. Many divisions of the FAA were strongly against the overlay program and the FAA is now removing the overlays as fast as practical. Very few still exist. In most cases, the new approach which replaces the overlay will have better minima, bit not always. To pat myself on the back just a bit, I do have some expertise on that program. I was an early adopter and fought hard for the use of GPS In Lieu of ADF and DME. With the help of Randy Kenagy and Phil Boyer of ALPA . We got it done. I was contacted by a gentleman named Bob Wright who was in the position within the FAA to get the job done. It took almost a year, but we did get that permission and I am VERY proud of what we got done. If you get to the correct FAA FED, things can work correctly Happy Skies. Old Bragging Bob In a message dated 1/4/2012 11:39:45 A.M. Central Standard Time, _Mauledriver@nc.rr.com_ (mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com) writes: Yes, what Bob said. I'm thinking that track is better than heading. And if I recall correctly, when many of those NDB approaches had GPS overlays a few years ago, you didn't require an ADF (or the ability to fly a mag heading), you just used a certified GPS to fly the NDB tracks. (do any of those still exist - the ones I used to fly are all replaced by RNAV T approaches) I guess what you are getting at is that you'd like to avoid having to install a DG by using a GPS driven instrument. My glass panel gives me mag headings from the EFIS's AHRS system and allows me to easily follow vectors. Otherwise, I don't have a whiskey compass or vacuum driven heading instrument. The key question is what happens with an electronics failure... well I have a GRT ADI instrument with a GPS and an independent backup battery. It just gives me a digital track readout along with turn coordinator function and a quasi-horizon. I can't follow a mag heading but I can fly a track pretty darn accurately. Bill "not completely off-topic" Watson On 1/4/2012 11:27 AM, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) wrote: Good Morning Ken, You said: "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV NDB approach." While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the AeroElectric list, I would like to comment. If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of shooting an NDB approach and the only method currently legal is to use an ADF combined with a legal compass heading. Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just a fixed or manually rotatable loop and compass. No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to execute the approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport location as the 'go to' destination and fly the track to the airport. While heading is always nice to know, (it helps us determine where to look when visibility is marginal,) it pales in importance to staying on track toward the airport. Just sayin' nothin' else ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:02 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? When a boat or ship leaves port the skipper and the navigator know exactly how much fuel is on board...All they need is a flow meter to calculate how much fuel they have on board. Aircraft however also like to know exactly how much fuel is in each tank even if there is a break in a fuel line. That requires an accurate method of measuring the fuel in the tank, in the air. There are only two recognized methods; Capacitance fuel gauges and drip sticks.... Drip sticks don't work in the air. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson Sent: January 2, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? The boat people deal with crazy shaped tanks. Here is one example that uses a low tech float/resistor and a smart meter head. http://www.cruzpro.com/products.html#HEADINGE PaulW ===== >At 10:41 AM 1/2/2012, you wrote: > >The electronics have been explained by Joe and Sarg, and Sarg >elaborated on his experience with Princeton probes. > >But the reason for installing cap probes has gone unanswered. >Cap probes allow for fuel measurement of irregularly shaped tanks. >My fuel bays in the wing change in taper, both in depth and width, >in addition to the whole tank sitting at an angle (dihedral), making >any kind of accurate measurement impossible over the tank range when >using a linear type (float) sensor. >I have installed 8' Centroid probes. Haven't fueled them yet. >They come with two small potentiometers built in to adjust the empty >and full points. Available in 0-5v output and various resistance >output so you can use them with your existing gauge. > >http://www.centroidproducts.com/tableofc.htm > >Not a recommendation, just a resource, as I have no real world >experience with this product, . YMMV. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:14 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: 14 volt bus / voltage regulator? From: Andy Hawes Looking for a voltage regulator recommendation: I need a small 14 volt bus bar in order to service ray allen servos and maybe a couple other 14 volt devices. I will be running a 28 volt system and would prefer to have a separate 14 volt bus. If anyone has any recommendations, or tips on how to go about servicing disparate voltage components, I=B9m much obliged -- Thank you, Andy ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:04 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Harness Nice! What strikes me about your low volume capabilities is what a colleague of mine coined some years ago, "Mass Customization". The ability to take advantage of specialization and mass production down to quantity = 1. Bill On 1/4/2012 1:15 PM, Ron Raby wrote: > Hi Bill, Bob > > Actually we build both high volume and low volume harnesses at my > company. Almost all of the harnesses we build use a harness board. Non > of the harness drawings, of the thousands we build were developed with > 3d cad, all were done in 2d. Attached is a small harness drawing with > a wire run list in pdf format for everyone to look at. Qty 2, 4 x 8 > sheets of plywood end to end could simulate the fusalage of most > planes. My intension is to give people ideas that may help. I am not > trying to sell anything. > the link is to my website and shows some pictures of completed harnesses. > > http://www.advanceddesign.com/products_harnesscable.html > > Regards > > Ron Raby > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Watson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:15 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Harness > > >> >> >> In other words, using a template or form board is a mass production >> technique. Kind of the opposite of what we are doing in the OBAM world. >> >> Conversely, it would seem reasonable to think we can do a superior >> job with our hand built, single craftsman approach. Of course our >> amateur skills may cancel out any skilled craftsman advantage. >> >> Bill "reflecting on the joys of OBAM aircraft" Watson >>>> >>>> How about building the harness on a template. That way it can be >>>> built outside the aircraft tested and inspected before instalation. >>> >>> That IS how the 'big' guys do it. But they often build the proof >>> of concept harness in the airplane, take it out and build >>> a form-board to match it. Even with full 3-D CAD systems, it's >>> difficult to build a first-article that really fits the airplane >>> the way the craftsmen would like it. >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:33 PM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 14 volt bus / voltage regulator? Ray Allen makes a 12V regulator just for 28V aircraft, P/N REG-1. Otherwise we've installed something like this for 12V items: http://www.wmjmarine.com/vtc60-24-12.html These days you can't really get by without a few 12V outlets. When we had the luxury, we've gone so far as to install a complete 12V battery and alternator, but that was on a turbine with lots of spare drive pads. Dave Saylor AirCrafters 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Andy Hawes wrote: > Looking for a voltage regulator recommendation: > > I need a small 14 volt bus bar in order to service ray allen servos and > maybe a couple other 14 volt devices. I will be running a 28 volt system > and would prefer to have a separate 14 volt bus. If anyone has any > recommendations, or tips on how to go about servicing disparate voltage > components, I=99m much obliged -- > > Thank you, > > Andy > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? From: Jared Yates For those of us with a high-wing, we also get to use a third option of optical quantity indication. On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > noelloveys@yahoo.ca> > > When a boat or ship leaves port the skipper and the navigator know exactly > how much fuel is on board...All they need is a flow meter to calculate how > much fuel they have on board. Aircraft however also like to know exactly > how much fuel is in each tank even if there is a break in a fuel line. > That > requires an accurate method of measuring the fuel in the tank, in the air. > There are only two recognized methods; Capacitance fuel gauges and drip > sticks.... Drip sticks don't work in the air. > > Noel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul > wilson > Sent: January 2, 2012 4:40 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do > they work? > > > The boat people deal with crazy shaped tanks. Here is one example > that uses a low tech float/resistor and a smart meter head. > http://www.cruzpro.com/products.html#HEADINGE > PaulW > ===== > > >At 10:41 AM 1/2/2012, you wrote: > > > > > >The electronics have been explained by Joe and Sarg, and Sarg > >elaborated on his experience with Princeton probes. > > > >But the reason for installing cap probes has gone unanswered. > >Cap probes allow for fuel measurement of irregularly shaped tanks. > >My fuel bays in the wing change in taper, both in depth and width, > >in addition to the whole tank sitting at an angle (dihedral), making > >any kind of accurate measurement impossible over the tank range when > >using a linear type (float) sensor. > >I have installed 8' Centroid probes. Haven't fueled them yet. > >They come with two small potentiometers built in to adjust the empty > >and full points. Available in 0-5v output and various resistance > >output so you can use them with your existing gauge. > > > >http://www.centroidproducts.com/tableofc.htm > > > >Not a recommendation, just a resource, as I have no real world > >experience with this product, . YMMV. > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: From: Jared Yates You are correct, we can't substitute GPS unless the approach title includes "or GPS," indicating that it is an overlay. On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 2:19 PM, wrote: > ** > Good Morning -- Is it Jared? > > The GPS cannot be used in lieu of an ADF for an ADF approach. > > It can be used for all other functions of the ADF, but not when the ADF is > the basis for the approach. > > If there is a published overlay, then the overlay approach can be > executed. We tried to get permission to use it as you suggest, but the FEDs > were firm. They told us that all ADF approaches would either get an overlay > or a GPS approach that had better minima. While most have been handled that > way, many have not. > > Does NOT make sense, but them's the rules. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > PS Incidentally, there are no longer any NDB approaches. They were all > converted to ADF. > > In a message dated 1/4/2012 11:07:31 A.M. Central Standard Time, > email@jaredyates.com writes: > > Hmmm.... I thought we could substitute an ifr gps for adf in ndb > approaches. When you say compass, do you mean magnetically derived heading? > > > On Jan 4, 2012, at 11:27, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > > Good Morning Ken, > > You said: > "Several degrees of error can become problematical for things like an RNAV > NDB approach." > > While this is getting quite far away from a subject for the Aeroelectric > list, I would like to comment. > > If we are flying IFR, it would seem we need a legal method of shooting an > NDB approach and the only method currently legal is to use an ADF combined > with a legal compass heading. > > Once upon a time, we were legal to shoot that approach with just a fixed > or manually rotatable loop and compass. > > No longer true. We must have an ADF and a compass. > > If we are cheating and want to use a GPS, even a legal GPS, to execute the > approach, it would be pertinent to set the airport location as the 'go to' > destination and fly the track to the airport. While heading is always nice > to know, (it helps us determine where to look when visibility is marginal,) > it pales in importance to staying on track toward the airport. > > Just sayin' nothin' else > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > In a message dated 1/4/2012 10:01:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, > klehman@albedo.net writes: > > Several degrees of error can become problematical for > things like an RNAV NDB approach. > > * > > * > > ** > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:22 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? True if your seat is close to the wing as in my Kitfox...You got me! Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jared Yates Sent: January 4, 2012 8:24 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? For those of us with a high-wing, we also get to use a third option of optical quantity indication. On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: When a boat or ship leaves port the skipper and the navigator know exactly how much fuel is on board...All they need is a flow meter to calculate how much fuel they have on board. Aircraft however also like to know exactly how much fuel is in each tank even if there is a break in a fuel line. That requires an accurate method of measuring the fuel in the tank, in the air. There are only two recognized methods; Capacitance fuel gauges and drip sticks.... Drip sticks don't work in the air. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson Sent: January 2, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Capacitive Fuel Level Sensor - How do they work? The boat people deal with crazy shaped tanks. Here is one example that uses a low tech float/resistor and a smart meter head. http://www.cruzpro.com/products.html#HEADINGE PaulW ===== >At 10:41 AM 1/2/2012, you wrote: > >The electronics have been explained by Joe and Sarg, and Sarg >elaborated on his experience with Princeton probes. > >But the reason for installing cap probes has gone unanswered. >Cap probes allow for fuel measurement of irregularly shaped tanks. >My fuel bays in the wing change in taper, both in depth and width, >in addition to the whole tank sitting at an angle (dihedral), making >any kind of accurate measurement impossible over the tank range when >using a linear type (float) sensor. >I have installed 8' Centroid probes. Haven't fueled them yet. >They come with two small potentiometers built in to adjust the empty >and full points. Available in 0-5v output and various resistance >output so you can use them with your existing gauge. > >http://www.centroidproducts.com/tableofc.htm > >Not a recommendation, just a resource, as I have no real world >experience with this product, . YMMV. -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:13 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: 25 stainbless cable ties for 5$ From: "rparigoris" Hi group For what it's worth I just visited a Harbor freight that just opened by my home and saw they are selling 25 cable ties for 5$: http://www.harborfreight.com/3-16-inch-x-12-inch-25-piece-stainless-steel-cable-ties-92515.html They look OK but I didn't test them. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362459#362459 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.