AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 01/24/12


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:29 AM - Re: Z-12, Z-13/8 or a bit of both! (MikeDunlop)
     2. 06:12 AM - Re: Grounding - 28 to 12v down-converter (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
     3. 08:21 AM - Re: Grounding - 28 to 12v down-converter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 11:24 AM - Fuses instead of breakers (Jeff Page)
     5. 01:30 PM - Re: Fuses instead of breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 01:44 PM - Re: Fuses instead of breakers (B Tomm)
     7. 04:34 PM - Antenna Installation Question (tomcostanza)
     8. 05:01 PM - Re: Antenna Installation Question (Charlie England)
     9. 06:33 PM - Re: Antenna Installation Question (Noel Loveys)
    10. 06:39 PM - Re: Antenna Installation Question (tomcostanza)
    11. 07:53 PM - Re: Grounding - 28 to 12v down-converter (Paul Millner)
    12. 08:13 PM - Re: Re: Antenna Installation Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 08:38 PM - Re: Fuses instead of breakers (Bill Watson)
    14. 09:33 PM - Re: Re: Weak and Static on Transmission (jerb)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:29:08 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Z-12, Z-13/8 or a bit of both!
    From: "MikeDunlop" <mdunlop001@aol.com>
    Bob, Thanks for the reply. Now I understand, I will be using the Z-13/8 architecture. Let me try and be more informative about how I envisage the earth conduit setup. I'm building a Long-EZ with a Odyssey PC925 battery in the nose section. The positive cables will run from the battery to the master switch in the nose section (6 to 7 inches), from the master switch through the earth conduit to the starter solenoid way back on the firewall (about 10 ft), then from solenoid to starter. The earth cable will run from the battery to the copper tab on the front of the earth conduit, just behind the nose section (30 inches). The earth is then picked up from the rear copper tab of the earth conduit, on the engine side of the firewall, by a copper braided strap between conduit and engine. So I presume (dangerous thing to do!) the cranking current runs through the copper conduit. My question was: What is the minimum size cable can I use from the copper tab on the FRONT of the earth conduit tab (just behind the nose section) to the instrument earth bus (approx 18-20 inches in length) MikeD (U.K.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364653#364653


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:12:14 AM PST US
    From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
    Subject: Grounding - 28 to 12v down-converter
    Note: -Input/output negative cannot be mixed with or together Maybe my "Chinglish" is not up to the task of translating that? Paul I'm not schooled in "Chinglish" either but perhaps this means that you cannot stack this power supply on top of another to get a higher voltage out. In other words the ground is not floating. Roger


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:21:21 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Grounding - 28 to 12v down-converter
    At 08:07 AM 1/24/2012, you wrote: > Note: > -Input/output negative cannot be mixed with or together > Maybe my "Chinglish" is not up to the task of translating >that? > Paul > I'm not schooled in "Chinglish" either but >perhaps this means that you cannot stack this power supply on top of another >to get a higher voltage out. In other words the ground is not floating. > Roger Understand . . . I wonder if I could hire out to this eBay seller as an editor for their marketing literature. I read the line you cited and couldn't make any sense of it. On the other hand, there's another line. "-Module properties:non-isolated,auto switch in Booster and step-down voltage,Constant pressure and current." It's that "non-isolated" thing that sticks. A strong anecdotal point is the arrangement of terminals . . . Emacs! The IN- and VO- are immediately adjacent which offers a probability that they are common to each other on the ECB. My bet is that this is an example of the common buck down converter but with some additional electronics that offers BOTH regulation set points for both current and voltage. I'm thinking about ordering one just to check it out. It appears to offer a lot of performance for the money. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:24:04 AM PST US
    From: Jeff Page <jpx@qenesis.com>
    Subject: Fuses instead of breakers
    I really like the idea of using fuses rather than breakers. The ATC style fuses look like a excellent product. However, I cannot find any "slo-blow" versions. Do they exist ? How do I decide on the size of the fuse when manufacturers of products recommend a breaker or slow-blo fuse ? For example, the Lightspeed ignition instructions suggest a 5A breaker with an 18AWG wire. So a 7.5A or 10A fuse could easily be used with that wire. An ATC fuse typically blows at 125% of rating within a second, much faster than a breaker. How do I know what the peak current is on various devices to know that there will not be a nuisance trip (a really bad thing for electronic ignitions) with a fast blow fuse ? Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10


    Message 5


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    Time: 01:30:38 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuses instead of breakers
    At 01:16 PM 1/24/2012, you wrote: I really like the idea of using fuses rather than breakers. The ATC style fuses look like a excellent product. They are . . . However, I cannot find any "slo-blow" versions. Do they exist ? How do I decide on the size of the fuse when manufacturers of products recommend a breaker or slow-blo fuse ? Excellent question. It's not always clear to me why any given installation instruction calls for a "slow-blow" fuse. WAAaayyy back when, one could purchase fuses for a given current rating that offered different time constants. In automobiles I've found that many fuses are way 'oversized' to the task while still appropriate to protection of the wire. I don't think there are any fuses in my mini-van under 10A and most are over 10A. For example, the Lightspeed ignition instructions suggest a 5A breaker with an 18AWG wire. So a 7.5A or 10A fuse could easily be used with that wire. The Lightspeed ignition draws about 2.8A max (full increase RPM and highest operating temperature) so a 5A fuse is quite adequate to the load. Heavier wire is sometimes called out just for mechanical robustness even when the current levels are low. I think I heard one ol' greybeard at Beech speak to a policy of "no wires under 20AWG in the engine compartment." Magneto's were wired with 18AWG shielded even tho much smaller wire would have provided proper electrical function. An ATC fuse typically blows at 125% of rating within a second, much faster than a breaker. How do I know what the peak current is on various devices to know that there will not be a nuisance trip (a really bad thing for electronic ignitions) with a fast blow fuse ? There was a rule of thumb years ago for always-hot battery feeders not to be protected at levels above 5A. But that rule of thumb got codified later: --------------------------- Sec. 23.1361 Master switch arrangement. (a) There must be a master switch arrangement to allow ready disconnection of each electric power source from power distribution systems, except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section. The point of disconnection must be adjacent to the sources controlled by the switch arrangement. If separate switches are incorporated into the master switch arrangement, a means must be provided for the switch arrangement to be operated by one hand with a single movement. (b) Load circuits may be connected so that they remain energized when the master switch is open, if the circuits are isolated, or physically shielded, to prevent their igniting flammable fluids or vapors that might be liberated by the leakage or rupture of any flammable fluid system; and (1) The circuits are required for continued operation of the engine; or (2) The circuits are protected by circuit protective devices with a rating of five amperes or less adjacent to the electric power source. (3) In addition, two or more circuits installed in accordance with the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section must not be used to supply a load of more than five amperes. (c) The master switch or its controls must be so installed that the switch is easily discernible and accessible to a crewmember. -------------- Now interestingly enough . . . one can do an experiment where a 5A breaker and a 10A ATC fuse are connected in series. Dead fault the circuit on a 12v battery and the fuse always blows before the breaker trips. From this I would deduce that a 5A breaker of the battery bus which is compliant with the FAR cited above can be replaced by a 10A fuse in the same location and still be satisfy the design goal. The 10A fuse is faster than a 5A breaker and dumps less energy into the fault than a the breaker. High inrush devices are generally limited to motors and incandescent lamps. For those circuits, fatter fuses and commensurate increases in wire size are not without reasonable justification. Input to the Lightspeed ignition has, at most, a filter capacitor preceding the switchmode power supply. A 5A fuse is fine. But given the fatter-wire recommendations for installation, then a 7.5 or 10A FUSE PROTECTED feeder can be brought from the battery bus without insulting design goals for crash safety cited in 23.1361(b)(2) above. For all other systems (not critical to keeping the engine running!) the experiment is low risk. If you get nuisance trips, upsize the fuse. You need not necessarily upsize the wire too. Keep in mind that 20A through a 22AWG wire will not burn the wire. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/22AWG_20A.pdf While your concerns are noteworthy, they can be addressed with a very broad brush applying common sense. If I were building an airplane today, I'd protect the electronic ignition battery feeders at 10A and wire with 20AWG wire that still fits in the smaller pins for fire wall penetration and/or interface to the electronics. This offers a mechanically and electrically robust feeder to the ignition that does not argue with crash safety design goals. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:44:53 PM PST US
    From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
    Subject: Fuses instead of breakers
    I used a lot of fuses (4 fuse blocks) and about a dozen breakers (for things that I need/want control of in flight or during maintenance. I like to have each on it's own circuit. I don't know of any Slo-blo fuses, but there may be. It may be that you would simply use a higher value fuse. Something that protects the wire against hard faults. I was going to use Lightspeed but changed my mind to P-mags partially for this reason, they are self powered once flying, therefore do not depend on ship's power for normal operation. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Page Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:16 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuses instead of breakers I really like the idea of using fuses rather than breakers. The ATC style fuses look like a excellent product. However, I cannot find any "slo-blow" versions. Do they exist ? How do I decide on the size of the fuse when manufacturers of products recommend a breaker or slow-blo fuse ? For example, the Lightspeed ignition instructions suggest a 5A breaker with an 18AWG wire. So a 7.5A or 10A fuse could easily be used with that wire. An ATC fuse typically blows at 125% of rating within a second, much faster than a breaker. How do I know what the peak current is on various devices to know that there will not be a nuisance trip (a really bad thing for electronic ignitions) with a fast blow fuse ? Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10


    Message 7


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    Time: 04:34:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Antenna Installation Question
    From: "tomcostanza" <Tom@CostanzaAndAssociates.com>
    Hi, Comant instructions for a comm antenna installation says to mount the antenna base directly to the skin for proper electrical bonding. Makes sense to me. Then they include a cork gasket with the antenna. Any suggestions? I was planning to alodine the skin under the antenna base. Should I put dielectric grease or anything else between the base and the skin? -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364738#364738


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:01:47 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Antenna Installation Question
    On 01/24/2012 06:26 PM, tomcostanza wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "tomcostanza"<Tom@CostanzaAndAssociates.com> > > Hi, > > Comant instructions for a comm antenna installation says to mount the antenna base directly to the skin for proper electrical bonding. Makes sense to me. Then they include a cork gasket with the antenna. Any suggestions? > > I was planning to alodine the skin under the antenna base. Should I put dielectric grease or anything else between the base and the skin? > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza There should be contact between the base & the heads of the mounting screws, and contact inside the fuselage from the screws through the nuts and lock washers to the inside of the skin. the teeth of the lock washers should bite through any paint/primer into the surface of the skin. Charlie


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:33:31 PM PST US
    From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
    Subject: Antenna Installation Question
    The cork gasket goes directly under the antenna, between the antenna and the skin to prevent water from penetrating the skin under the base. The antenna grounds through the washer and mounting nut inside the skin. This is important as this is a ground plane for the antenna. Clean off the alodine, or zinc chromate from inside the skin around where the mounting nut and washer grip the inside of the skin. >From here I'm assuming that you have a cloth plane... Cloth planes usually have a frame structure under the cloth physically strong enough to hold a com. ant. but you may need to install you own foil ground plane. If this is your case then make sure your ground plane is well grounded through the outside of the antenna connector or preferably the mounting nut. Small planes generally have their com antenna on top of the plane... away from landing gear and other parasitic elements like landing gear. Being on top is adequate to talk with towers and a good location to communicate with other aircraft. If you expect to fly above FL2.0 you may need a com Ant on the bottom of your plane to contact ATC. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tomcostanza Sent: January 24, 2012 8:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna Installation Question <Tom@CostanzaAndAssociates.com> Hi, Comant instructions for a comm antenna installation says to mount the antenna base directly to the skin for proper electrical bonding. Makes sense to me. Then they include a cork gasket with the antenna. Any suggestions? I was planning to alodine the skin under the antenna base. Should I put dielectric grease or anything else between the base and the skin? -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364738#364738


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:39:48 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Antenna Installation Question
    From: "tomcostanza" <Tom@CostanzaAndAssociates.com>
    > the teeth of the lock washers should bite through any paint/primer into the surface of the skin. Thanks Charlie. I know this makes a good D.C. ground, but I'm not sure how well it grounds at 100+ MHz. Maybe Bob could speak to that. -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364763#364763


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:53:24 PM PST US
    From: Paul Millner <millner@me.com>
    Subject: Re: Grounding - 28 to 12v down-converter
    On 1/24/2012 6:07 AM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote: > Note: > -Input/output negative cannot be mixed with or together > Maybe my "Chinglish" is not up to the task of translating > that? > Paul > I'm not schooled in "Chinglish" either but > perhaps this means that you cannot stack this power supply on top of another > to get a higher voltage out. In other words the ground is not floating. > Roger > Hmmm... takes a lot of creativity to get there, since they're talking about input/output, not output/output... and they're talking about negative, not positive/negative. We'll see what Bob's field trial determines! Paul -- Please note my new email address! millner@me.com


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:13:29 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Antenna Installation Question
    At 08:36 PM 1/24/2012, you wrote: ><Tom@CostanzaAndAssociates.com> > > > > the teeth of the lock washers should bite through any > paint/primer into the surface of the skin. > > >Thanks Charlie. I know this makes a good D.C. ground, but I'm not >sure how well it grounds at 100+ MHz. Maybe Bob could speak to that. It's nigh on to impossible to get the 'ideal' bond between antenna base and skin without welding it. Further, adding a cork gasket under the base puts a 'resilient' material in the stack-up of parts under 'crush'. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Comm_Antenna_Installation.gif Since all electrical connections MUST come though the mounting hardware, getting the highest practical make up forces goes directly to gas-tightness of the connections at interfaces marked with (*). All this happens within a few tenths of an inch of the center of each screw. Taking all the paint off skin under the antenna adds nothing. I'd pitch the cork. Drill out the base holes to take at least a #10 screw (if not already that large). Clean the mate up surfaces marked (*) to bright. Run a thin bead of RTV around the perimeter of the base before pressing it into place on the aircraft. Tighten the screws to spec limits. Using grade 8 hardware will let you get some real, lasting pressure in the joints. Bob . . . Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:38:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuses instead of breakers
    From: Bill Watson <mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
    You could use a breaker for this particular circuit. I haven't thought about electronic ignitions specifically but I too like fuses over breakers. But convinced myself to use 4 breakers anyway, 2 for the 2 voltage regulators, 1 for the AP, and one for the flaps. Not sure I would have used all 4 now that I've flown it a bit but it made sense to me at the time. So I still have 2 dozen fuses... Just a thought. Bil Sent from my iPad On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Jeff Page <jpx@qenesis.com> wrote: > > I really like the idea of using fuses rather than breakers. The ATC style fuses look like a excellent product. > > However, I cannot find any "slo-blow" versions. Do they exist ? How do I decide on the size of the fuse when manufacturers of products recommend a breaker or slow-blo fuse ? > > For example, the Lightspeed ignition instructions suggest a 5A breaker with an 18AWG wire. So a 7.5A or 10A fuse could easily be used with that wire. > > An ATC fuse typically blows at 125% of rating within a second, much faster than a breaker. How do I know what the peak current is on various devices to know that there will not be a nuisance trip (a really bad thing for electronic ignitions) with a fast blow fuse ? > > Jeff Page > Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > > > > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:33:59 PM PST US
    From: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Weak and Static on Transmission
    What kind of engine, if 2-stroke and using a voltage regular what brand is it, also what brand/model hand held radio are you using? I have almost the same identical problem. When I first flying my new home built airplane it was fine, crystal clear both transmission and receiving. However, something changed, now I can hardly understand transmissions. I haven't yet been able to put my finger on what's changed and causing it. jerryb At 09:51 AM 1/22/2012, you wrote: ><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > >At 07:38 AM 1/20/2012, you wrote: >><bbradburry@bellsouth.net> >> >>Well, to further clarify this problem. I seem to be able to hear ok on the >>ground while taxiing around the airport, but after I leave the airport the >>reception gets really bad. At first I thought it was a problem with the >>approach frequency because that is where it would first start up. It was a >>loud hiss in the headphones so loud that I could not hear ATC. In fact, I >>have made two NORDO landings as a result on this loud hiss. I sent my radio >>back to have it checked out and nothing was found. All this trouble is at >>below 5000 ft and fine weather. I am flying off my 40 hours (22 so far) and >>am only flying in good weather. These radio problems at a Class C airport >>have made me afraid to fly. ATC could take some action against me if it >>continues. > > This is the first time I've been aware that you were having > problems both with hearing and talking. While the ground > listeners complain of "static" you have described the extraneous > audio as a "hiss". We may be talking of two different problems. > I'm having trouble resolving a single noise source that would > manifest in both what you hear and what is transmitted to the > ground. > > Get a hand-held transceiver and use it to 'probe' around > the airplane. Use tune the hand-held to an unused frequency, > open the squelch and open the volume to get a low level of > no-signal hiss common to all receivers. Then probe around > the panel mounted goodies and wire harnesses with the > hand-held's antenna. See if the no-signal hiss changes > in level with the master switch on versus off. If it does > change, turn off accessories and/or pull breakers/fuses to > see if any one accessory produces a noticeable change > in noise from the hand-held. > > You can use the hand-held as an airborne signal quality > sniffer too. Use a headset with the hand held to listen > to your own transmitted signals. You may have to take the > antenna off the hand-held to avoid overloading the hand-held > receiver. You don't need to talk on the ship's radio, just > listen to your transmitted signal to characterize the noise. > Is it the same "hiss" you hear in your received signals? > > In any case, carry the hand held to avoid the no-radio > return to the airport. In fact, having the 'three musketeers > of dark-panel ops' in your flight bag is good insurance > for any flights: > >www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Failure_Tolerance.pdf > > It was also suggested that you try a substitute antenna. > I've fabricated test antennas that could be taped to the > top or bottom surface of a wing and coax brought into > the cockpit through the door gasket or some other pathway. > > But using the hand-held to characterize your transmitted > and received signals personally takes ATC and others > out of the loop. This is an especially good thing when > they're unable/unwilling to join the discussion and > offer their own observations/insights. > > > Bob . . . > >




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